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00:00Lucy Lappby is Britain's worst child serial killer.
00:06She poisoned some with insulin.
00:08When you actually said, where's the evidence, it just wasn't there.
00:11I said, I believe you're innocent.
00:14I'm astonished with what her current barrister is doing.
00:19I think it's been absolutely disgraceful.
00:21The lead prosecution expert appears to have changed his mind.
00:24Changed his mind? On a murder case?
00:26They are wrong. They haven't got the evidence.
00:29some of these families are speaking publicly we want to say shame on you all
00:53yeah so so the answer your question is yes to the interview and we've
00:57slot it in i'm not being uh evasive it's just i know that that sky and itv and usual things they
01:05all want interviews and i've just basically said let's grab me after the press conference we'll do
01:09it if you want to write something for tomorrow it's about darry evans but listen keep that to
01:15yourself okay remarkably dr evans has now changed his mind on the cause of death of baby c
01:35dr evans has also said that he has a new report despite numerous requests the prosecution have
01:46yet to give this report to the defense we say that all the convictions are unsafe
01:57can i hand over to richard taylor who's going to deal with those reports can you come up here
02:01it was okay um with regard to the report on uh baby o the baby was on very high pressure settings
02:14so high the baby's liver was pushed right down into the pelvis so when the doctor performed the
02:21aspiration of the aspiration of the abdomen the needle perforated the liver
02:29and this led to bleeding free blood going into the abdomen the baby went into shock
02:37and they were unable to resuscitate the baby partly because they didn't realize what they'd done
02:41what was the name of the doctor i don't think it's right that we name names at this stage i think the
02:50doctor knows who they are you don't i know i i have to say from a personal point of view that
03:00if this had happened to me i'd be unable to sleep at night knowing that what i had done
03:06had led to the death of the baby and now there is a nurse in jail convicted of murder
03:21having looked at the evidence how strongly the evidence against who she met me is compared to your
03:27to the death of the baby and now there is a nurse in jail it's nonsense complete nonsense the baby died
03:37from shock from a liver perforation
03:41we're now getting word that one of the key prosecution witnesses in the let me case has
03:59changed his mind it's just unbelievable because of this change in opinion by one of the prosecution
04:10experts is there enough evidence to actually overturn her conviction that prosecution expert changed
04:16his opinion on how something happened but didn't change his opinion on whether she was killed or not
04:20absolutely correct
04:24evans is going to get his comeuppance evans will go down as one of the worst individuals that have
04:43the court has ever asked to give evidence ever
04:51i've had to put up with an awful lot of social media abuse
04:57you know that should not happen and it certainly shouldn't happen to somebody who's
05:04played a part in convicting one of england's worst female serial killers
05:09these people seem to be making things up and i think that's because this case
05:19did not involve the metropolitan elite you know the barristers were from liverpool
05:25the court case was in manchester you know the expert witnesses were from west wales
05:31and the channel islands i think they can't cope with that i think they've been blindsided
05:41i mean what do these clever people think led to the death of these babies they're blind to evidence
05:50they're blind to objectivity and she will be in the news for decades to come
05:57and it will sell newspapers and it will create headlines and uh it ever was this and that's the way it is
06:06so let's just ignore all of that
06:10the idea that i changed my mind was absolutely astonishing i amended my opinion in relation to one case baby c
06:31i wrote to chesu police and what amended my report was the evidence i heard from the nurses and doctors
06:41looking after him as a result of this it was clear that he was a well stable baby whatever the x-ray of
06:4936 hours earlier had shown could not have caused his death what caused his death was something that had
06:54occurred just before midnight the following day this baby died from air into the bloodstreams and this
07:04occurred in lucy letby's presence
07:09i did not choose my view after the trial i amended my report when giving evidence in the trial
07:18it wasn't until he was on the witness stand despite it not appearing in any of his reports he suddenly
07:26said i think the baby also could have had air injected into a vein he just made it up as he went along
07:37the case in point in fact the greatest example of the case in point is babysitting
07:44i just don't think it is important the jury were reminded by the lead prosecutor in his closing
07:52speech that lucy letby wasn't on duty on june the 12th dr evans was supported in court by at least seven
08:00medical experts but actually there's only one prosecution expert giving media interviews isn't
08:05there i'm sure the others have seen in the way that dr evans has been treated online and the way his
08:15opinions have been ridiculed and have looked at that and thought i don't want to speak publicly for that
08:21reason
08:35now let's find out for mark exactly how this could impact what is going to happen next mark very good
08:40morning to you morning morning i think i made two announcements yesterday the first is that we're
08:45going back to the criminal cases review commission on new evidence from two neonatologists and you're
08:51absolutely right mike i'm the families are just absolutely devastated that he's discussing their
08:57babies though in this public way ben myers who was lucy letby's original barrister has never given a
09:05media interview there are many things wrong with this case but mark mcdonald's strategy is obviously you
09:11know very different so i've spoken to other lawyers who say that that's not a strategy that they would
09:16adopt i'm not aware that mark mcdonald has won lots of miscarriage of justice cases by adopting this public
09:25media strategy i don't apologize for speaking out about this but don't mistake that for a lack of
09:34compassion for the parents that have lost their children i'm doing what i'm doing to make sure
09:43the general public know that there is a major problem in this case i'm not doing it because
09:50i want to be on telly it's not about me it's never about me it's about a woman who's serving life in prison
10:04there are a lot of very nasty comments online from people that just think it's a tv drama and forget
10:19that it actually affects real people and affects their lives i mean it's bad enough for us but at
10:27least we've still got him the parents that have lost their children if it triggers such a visceral
10:33reaction in me i can't even begin to imagine how they must feel
10:42the police when i told them about the box said that it was something that had been
10:49brought up quite a lot in the children that they'd been investigated
10:53and it was definitely a repeated pattern
10:56the police told us that we were one of 17 others being investigated at that time
11:05and that the main trigger for the investigation was children who had been resuscitated and where
11:12doctors didn't really understand what was wrong the police told us that um they there wasn't enough
11:20evidence to take it to court at the time but they would leave it there in case anything else came up
11:27in the future that's why i think you can't get rid of the box because that's a strong evidence in itself
11:34obviously we've we've put it away haven't we but i don't think i can get rid of the box just don't
11:42think it can chuck the box out
11:54the more people go digging looking for new evidence the stronger the case for the prosecution
12:01and looking at the way lucy let be behaved she seemed to be animated by the fact that the baby has died
12:15she'd say guess what's happened a baby's died last night
12:20she wanted to be there wanting to organize everything even intruding on the parents grief
12:31that is most weird behavior
12:37we are dealing with an individual who is sociopathic
12:49we all look back at our lives
12:54and things that we do and things that we say well why on earth did i say something like that
13:02but then put it under a spotlight in a criminal trial
13:07with someone saying that's just bad behavior abnormal behavior maybe in hindsight it was
13:17but
13:19we can't bear to it
13:20i need this at some stage
13:31that and that
13:35most of the babies who died died from an injection of air into the bloodstream
13:41it's something that's very easy to do
13:43right um this is a standard setup in any children's ward or neonatal unit
13:52i'm using red wine
13:56simply to make it easier to see
14:00nobody's looking
14:02just connect it flush it through
14:04you can see how the the fluids gone in the pink stuff
14:12and then there's a bubble of air and that'll end up in the baby circulation within seconds
14:18take it out
14:21syringe is gone
14:22no evidence
14:26so it's that simple to do
14:30there was also this peculiar discoloration described by a number of doctors and nurses
14:36when these babies collapsed and i found a number of published papers where air embolus was cause of
14:43death and where this peculiar discoloration was found
14:52air embolism was diagnosed by dowie evans on the basis of exclusion that he couldn't think of
14:57anything else that could have caused these sudden collapses he said it's not that it's not that it's
15:01not that it's not that therefore it must be air embolism i can't think of anything else it is
15:06it's an interesting diagnosis to make because it's very hard to prove and it's also very hard to disprove
15:13you
15:20while we're talking i am being filmed talking to you
15:25no yes yes i am serious yes they're in my kitchen hello when i started and picked this up
15:33four or five months ago in that period of time boom the whole thing has changed oh there he is
15:39hello i've currently got hi very well 15 experts instructed to look at this case and i've got
15:48reports coming in on a weekly basis from all over the world sorry have you got me from harvard from
15:56tokyo from sweden from canada and the united kingdom we could do it anytime you want i am
16:04expecting two more reports in the coming weeks for the insulin cases all right let's do it that way
16:22baby f and baby l were the insulin cases they were crucial to the convictions
16:28some people called them the smoking gun cases because there was hard evidence that these babies
16:37had been poisoned lucy let be was accused of putting insulin into their drips that were either feeding
16:45or giving them nutrients
16:46the test results were discovered many months after the police started investigating the efficacy of
16:57these blood tests wasn't disputed in court in fact lucy let me herself admitted when she was
17:02cross-examined that someone on the ward must have poisoned them with insulin
17:06but she just said categorically it wasn't me
17:13so we're here to talk about baby l and f this is from the prosecution's perspective absolutely crucial
17:24um that if this test is correct that exogenous insulin has been given then that's it from their
17:37point of view game over was it given so we came across reference to some reports by dr walk the
17:46biochemist from guildford who administers the quality control testing for all of the labs
17:51dr walk in court provided two pairs of results of quality control one pair for baby f and one for baby l
18:02and her second report a test that was done just a few weeks after baby l's test shows that the
18:12insulin result came out as 962 right the target result for that insulin level was 108
18:21so it was around 800 higher so what is this study so the jury was repeatedly told by the prosecution
18:30there is no other way that this result could indicate anything else except exogenous insulin
18:37here we have a quality control test that is showing the same result that the two baby tests baby f and baby l showed
18:46a fictitiously high insulin level the reliability that was attributed to this test is invalid
18:55so this is not an opinion it's a fact
18:57when dr walk was questioned in court she presented the first of those tests that was done and then the
19:06subject was changed are you saying the jury were not told this that's correct so i think that's a
19:12significant piece of information that completely undermines i well as far as i can see it the process
19:19it's not i mean i'm not a lawyer but you know what it shows is that what the jury were told was not
19:26correct these results cannot be safely relied upon thank you
19:45i've now got four reports
19:54and they're very compelling
19:57what each of the cases exposed
20:02was serious and systemic failings of the unit
20:05there were people that were coming forward raising issues about this neonatal unit
20:15probably one of the loudest voices of those was lucy let me
20:22there's been an announcement that people are getting very excited about
20:52that people are getting very excited about this
20:57mark mcdonald now has just managed to get the best experts in the world together they've looked at
21:03every case in detail and they're going to say what their conclusions are
21:07i think it's in here are you here for the lucy let me press conference
21:10yes thank you very much today is a bit of a game changer uh in the whole of the case really
21:21i haven't taken over in september it's kind of all led up to this moment
21:26one two three four one two three four one two three four dr shu lee is seen as one of the most senior
21:45pediatricians in canada and he's going to chair the press conference he got involved in this trial
21:51inadvertently in that one of his papers from 1989 he felt been misused by the prosecution so surely
21:58when he discovered this was absolutely horrified i don't usually do medical legal cases i don't like
22:03them but in this case because what the prosecution expert witnesses had said with respect to the skin
22:10discoloration that was associated with embolism wasn't what i wrote about and that that was wrong
22:16mark said look you're known as the godfather of neonatology in canada can you get me some other
22:23international experts who'd be prepared to look at this pro bono and the anticipation is that they're
22:28going to talk about every single case
22:36before i start i'd like to share the similarities and condolences of members of the international expert
22:42panel with families of the affected infants we understand their stress and their anguish
22:49and our work is not meant to cause more distress rather it is meant to give them comfort and assurance
22:57in knowing the truth about what really happened now the members of the international expert panel he
23:05started the conference listing the names of all the experts and all their credentials the fact that
23:11they've given their time pro bono and have produced thousands of papers so it's undoubted that these
23:17were extremely high caliber experts now the next baby is baby 4 which is another case of air embolism
23:25the notion that these babies can be diagnosed with air embolism because they collapsed and had these skin
23:31discolorations has no evidence in fact this baby was born after prolonged premature rupture of membranes
23:39there is a standard treatment guideline in this country and in other countries that if there is
23:45prolonged premature rupture of membranes the mother should be given antibiotics right away so that the
23:51baby can be protected from any infection in this case that was not done this was not a stable baby as
24:00alleged by the prosecution witness so this baby died of systemic sepsis pneumonia we did not find any
24:09evidence of air embolism it's not that unusual for experts to draw different conclusions based on the
24:18same evidence that often happens but to draw such diametrically opposed views based on the same
24:24evidence is really quite staggering so baby nine the doctors failed to respond to routine surveillance
24:33warnings that this baby was colonized with this bacteria they did not recognize the diagnosis
24:39this was likely a preventable death
24:43now baby 11 there's actually no proof that the tube was even dislodged it was probably in the right
24:48place it's just that the consultant didn't know what he was doing
24:55the journalists and some quite experienced journalists in the room couldn't quite
24:58believe what they were hearing in summary ladies and gentlemen we did not find any murders
25:05in all cases death or injury were due to natural causes or just bad medical care
25:14people were just speechless if you are looking for the truth you don't need to go any further
25:21i'll be happy to take any questions dr hammond i'd like to ask dr lee did any of the international
25:30experts look at this and go gosh this could easily happen in my country or did they say god what an
25:35appalling system the nhs has this is the tip of the iceberg thousands of babies must be dying avoidably from
25:40substandard care i would say that if this was a hospital in canada it would be shut down right it
25:46wouldn't be happening can i say thank you to the panel thank you to everybody for coming those
25:52who don't have reports there should be some more left behind here so if you're a poor parent listening
26:00to this and the experts are not only saying your baby wasn't murdered what they are saying is with
26:05better care your baby would be alive you can't imagine anything more devastating for the parents
26:10listening to these this is just the tip of the iceberg i mean this is big but there are more reports
26:16after this an independent expert panel concluded that lucy letby may be innocent and the victim
26:23of a horrendous miscarriage of justice lucy letby's new lawyer mark mcdonald said the report
26:30demolished the case against her i'm now at the point where i think i think this needs to be reviewed
26:38it needs to be gone over we need to see it all again the tide has turned
27:00i don't think dowie evans will ever admit he's made a mistake i think he's stuck in that mindset
27:08i did i i didn't watch the press conference i've reviewed all of the reports in detail the
27:21reports i've seen are some of the weakest reports i've ever seen they're you they're hopeless
27:30these people were recruited by dr lee um so they were selected and if they had been recruited
27:37even subconsciously if dr lee had said they are misusing my evidence then i think that would
27:45immediately prejudice their thinking process and on top of that of course you know they're americans
27:55they're canadians they don't know how the system works here
27:59americans unfairly or not have a reputation for functioning as hired guns and i've experienced
28:06this a couple of times where the other side will seek an opinion from across the atlantic
28:14and because they can't get an honest opinion from the uk no the gang of lee you know i mean it's i don't
28:24want to be rude about it about people uh most of the time they've just got their facts wrong
28:33you know i could not believe what i read they've got their facts wrong i'll be happy to take any
28:40questions thank you very much indeed that's an astonishing uh set of revelations this is the first
28:46time you've seen this press conference no i haven't watched it before it's the first time you're watching
28:50yeah um thank you very much doctor lee uh can you tell me uh how many publications have you authored
29:02uh in terms of peer-reviewed publications in journals i've authored over 400. how many um
29:07peer-reviewed publications according to pubme is dr dhowie at the ground the star expert witness
29:13i got lost the answer is zero um so here is the problem you and your panel have written together
29:24thousands of peer-reviewed papers on neolitology the crown star witness dr dowry evans has written zero
29:34what does that tell you about the scientific knowledge of cheshire police of the ground prosecution
29:46service the judge of the trial and the judges of the appeal court that they do not understand the
29:54difference between scientists who have published multiple papers on this subject
30:00and someone who has published nothing
30:06so first of all the panel that we have is as i said this is the top launch
30:11in your design this is the panel
30:13the beauty of your design
30:17the
30:46First of all, the first question would be, if our panel found so many problems with the medical care provided by this team at this hospital, how is it that Dr. Evidence found none?
30:57Because in none of the 17 cases did he even identify one problem with the medical care provided at the hospital.
31:04The second question I would ask is this, he seemed to be rather selective in his use of information.
31:10So if he wasn't selective, if all the information was used, in fact, you would come to a very different conclusion than what he came to.
31:18The next question I would ask is, even when there's obvious cause of death, why did he go around looking for malfeasance?
31:26So if you can answer those three questions, I think you have the answer to your question.
31:30Sir.
31:35Yeah, I mean, he's wrong on all three counts.
31:37I mean, first of all, he says, I have not made a single criticism of the management of the babies.
31:45This is factually wrong.
31:48I made it very clear that there was a delay in giving antibiotics in the case of baby D.
31:54As for being selective, once again, he's completely wrong, utterly incorrect.
32:01I stressed to Cheshire Police that I wanted to see and did see a case note of all the babies who died.
32:12I reviewed all of them.
32:14So again, he is factually wrong.
32:17And then he says, why am I looking at malfeasance and ignoring everything else?
32:23Well, since then, we've found, suspected, that there are additional babies murdered by Lucy Letby.
32:32So Dr. Lee is wrong on all three of the observations he's made about me.
32:40Well, I think it's very worrying, actually.
32:43I mean, it's very worrying that people are getting the facts wrong.
32:47You know?
32:49And I think Lee had been subconsciously programmed, you know, by the pro-letary crowd.
32:56There we are.
33:12I'm glad you showed me that clip, because it just shows that Lee is not up to speed with his facts.
33:22Yeah, he got his facts wrong.
33:26Never going to do facts wrong.
33:50Initially, I thought, well, you know, maybe there's something in this.
33:52So, I went away, spent a few days going back over my trial notes.
34:03For example, the case of Baby O.
34:05At the first press conference, they accused a doctor of inserting a needle and causing the liver injury that killed Baby O.
34:13The baby died from shock, from a liver perforation.
34:19At the second press conference, the expert panel appeared to contradict this version of events.
34:25Baby 15 died from a subcapsular liver hematoma caused by traumatic delivery.
34:31This time, a botched delivery was responsible for the liver injury.
34:39There was no mention of a botched delivery at the trial.
34:42Well, the delivery went well.
34:44The issue of whether Baby O had been injured by a needle was discussed at length before the jury.
34:53The pathologist being questioned was definitive.
34:56There was no perforation injury.
34:58The insertion of the needle by Dr. Breary was a last-ditch attempt to try and save this baby's life.
35:07Experts in court supported the view that that was deemed appropriate.
35:12A lot of the evidence that they presented at the press conference was not new, in my opinion.
35:20Regurgitation of evidence that had already been presented at the trial and been dismissed.
35:28I don't think I've seen anything to show that she's been the victim of a miscarriage of justice.
35:34Not yet.
35:35As someone who covered the trial, something that has come into my possession is an email from Dr. Xu Li.
35:51An email that he sent out to recruit people onto the panel.
35:57Something that caught my eye, at the end of this, he says, we might be her last hope.
36:06My immediate reaction was it called into question, how balanced really is this request?
36:13If you're saying we are her last hope, you're in her corner.
36:27I feel desperately sad for the families of the babies involved.
36:34They know that their babies were harmed and killed by Lucy Letby.
36:39The public perception now is that maybe she didn't do it.
36:44It must be incredibly difficult for them to stomach.
36:47Today, Richard Baker Casey, who represents some of the families, said,
36:54Lucy Letby's lawyers will have a serious uphill battle to try and convince them that the convictions are unsafe.
37:02The families would say, for all the bells and whistles that might be attached to a press conference,
37:07there is nothing remarkable or new about the evidence being presented.
37:12Whatever side of the debate people are on, people should remember that the dead and harmed are not public property to be dissected on television or on the internet.
37:42People will jump on the fact that there will be nuanced differences between the different experts.
37:52One of them said, we think liver damage happened during the birth.
37:56The other one said, we think liver damage happened sticking a needle in.
38:00So there's a difference in those interpretations, but both of them found no evidence of deliberate harm.
38:06It's not unusual to have those differences, and I don't think that negates the validity of the reports.
38:12What was so powerful about Shu Li's statement was he was also clear that there was very, very poor medical care.
38:22The unit simply was not up to the task of coping with such a complex workload.
38:30Instead, we decided to blame it all on the nurse for being a murderer.
38:33Two babies a day die, probably avoidably, in the NHS, because we don't have the staff and the expertise and the facilities to save them.
38:44And that's the lesson that needs to come out of this.
38:46We don't want more witch hunts for murderers.
38:48We want properly staffed NHS units with a proper safety culture, so more babies each year are saved and more mothers are saved.
38:55Today I'm going to the Criminal Cases Review Commission to hand in over a thousand pages of detailed reports
39:21into why it is that Lucy Letby did not commit any of these crimes.
39:34Mr MacDonald, do you know from what the family said at the end of the Thurwell inquiry a couple of weeks ago?
39:40Not what the family said, what the lawyers said.
39:42Let's get it right.
39:43They represent the family.
39:44Yeah, but you've got to get it right, Liz.
39:46OK.
39:46What you're trying to get at is, do I have empathy for what's going on with the families?
39:51No, no, what I'm asking you is what...
39:52Well, let me answer that question.
39:53Do I have empathy?
39:54Of course I have empathy.
39:55These families have been through hell and bad.
39:58I have said if they want to look at these reports, then they can look at them.
40:04Because what I'm after is the truth.
40:06Those families say that there's a due legal process that's followed and that you could, you know, put this application in, which you've done.
40:14But why did you need to hand deliver it?
40:17They say you're just full of publicity.
40:20Well, you know, because you ran the blog continuously and your podcast all the way through the trial.
40:26When it comes to media, you've been out there at the front of the media list.
40:30I know that.
40:31And you have a...
40:32My job, though.
40:33And you had one narrative and you captured that narrative really well and you did it excellently.
40:37Because I put together a counter-narrative, a narrative that I say is actually the truth.
40:44I feel very confident that the CCRC will now refer this to the Court of Appeal.
40:51I feel very confident the Court of Appeal will say that her convictions are unsafe.
40:58I feel very confident the Court of Appeal will say that her convictions are unsafe.
41:05I spoke to Lucy only last night.
41:10And now I hear something very different in her voice.
41:17I hear hope.
41:18Two of my four grandchildren were born at the same time that Lucy Letby was waging carnage in Chester Hospital.
41:33The children murdered by her should now be at school, enjoying holidays, enjoying life.
41:40That will never happen.
41:43Clearly, Lucy Letby should confess.
41:46But I don't think she will.
41:49I think she's blanked off all of her crimes in order to be able to live with herself.
41:55Our son is always going to know and she'll probably always be in and out of the news and he'll always be reminded of it.
42:12And I don't know when he's older how that's going to make him feel or what effect that has on him.
42:19I worry for his future, yeah.
42:20When he gets older, I will.
42:22But then it is one of, I guess, the biggest cases in the world and people do have a right to know what had happened.
42:30There's always going to be two sides to it, isn't there?
42:35Personally, I think she's 100% guilty.
42:40I veer from being guilty to not guilty, depending on how I feel that day.
42:46Because I definitely feel something went on at the hospital.
42:54But then I also find it so hard to believe that somebody could actually do something like that.
43:03But obviously we'll never know the whole truth.
43:07But then we'll never know the truth.
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