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An emergency meeting was recently convened by the Climate Action Network Southeast Asia, Oxfam, and the Fossil Fuel Treaty Initiative, bringing together stakeholders from Southeast and South Asia to respond to the rising oil prices, which is being driven by the US and Israel’s war on Iran. The case for moving away from fossil fuels is growing stronger. But what will it take for Malaysia to act faster? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Nithi Nesadurai, Director and Regional Coordinator of Climate Action Network Southeast Asia, Charles Santiago
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and where you consider what you know of the news
00:18of the day.
00:18An emergency meeting was convened by the Climate Action Network Southeast Asia,
00:23Oxfam and the Fossil Fuel Treaty Initiative, bringing together stakeholders from Southeast Asia
00:30and South Asia to respond to the rising oil prices that's been brought about by the US and Israel's
00:38war on Iran. So joining me today to discuss what was actually discussed during the meeting and
00:46the outcomes of it, I have in the studio with me Nithi Nesadurai who is the Director and Regional
00:52Coordinator of Climate Action Network Southeast Asia. He's also the President of the NGO Environmental
00:57Protection Society Malaysia and Charles Santiago who is the Co-Chair of the ASEAN Parliamentarians
01:04for Human Rights. He is also the former Chairperson of the National Water Services Commission,
01:09better known as FAN. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me on the show. These are extraordinary
01:15times. So, Kansia convened this meeting, this emergency meeting. Tell me a little bit about
01:24why you felt it was necessary to call for a meeting, have everyone come to KL to discuss.
01:31Yeah, we're in a situation of a polycrisis and then aggravated by the war against Iran, you know,
01:39the US-Israelite war against Iran. And we also have these important meetings. And the reason we held
01:48it very quickly is because our two regions, we had representatives from Southeast Asia as well as
01:55South Asia, and they are very vulnerable to climate. You know, they are highly vulnerable to climate risk.
02:04So, we felt that we needed, with this war going on, which was aggravating the current situation and
02:12leading to this polycrisis, we felt we needed to call a meeting of representatives, stakeholders from
02:21these two regions, including government representatives, to come and discuss the issues, you know, caused by
02:27all this instability, which is aggravating the climate situation, especially with our regions in our
02:33country's heavy reliance on fossil fuels. So, linked to that is also the fact that the first
02:40international conference on transitioning away from fossil fuels is going to be held April 28-29 in
02:46Santa Marta, Colombia. So, we thought, why don't we bring everyone, address the current issues and also
02:53talk about how we can contribute towards this landmark conference coming up next month. And the urgency of it
03:00showed that we organized this whole meeting in three weeks. We brought people from 12 countries, including
03:06a minister from Cambodia and the ambassador of climate change from Timor-Leste. So, it was quite a remarkable
03:12achievement. Especially during the Ramadan and Eid period as well. Yes, it was held on the 25th and 26th of
03:19March, which was basically the week of Raya, you know, the second week of Raya, the week after Raya.
03:27The war is aggravating the climate crisis. Can you help us make that connection? How are the two linked?
03:36Yeah. First of all, war, apart from being a human killer, is also a climate killer. 5.5% of
03:44greenhouse gas emissions
03:45come from wars. Wow. And that could probably be an underestimate. So, that's one. And then the other
03:53thing is, we see fossil gas facilities being bombed and destroyed and then it's leading to an escalation in
04:02the cost of fuel. And our countries also, when they talk about energy security, for them it's like, oh,
04:09as long as we have a continued source of fossil fuels, we can import it from another country.
04:15Oh, we need gas, we can import it from the Middle East. We need oil, we can import it from
04:19the Middle East.
04:20That aspect of security is gone. So, there has to be a shift towards energy sovereignty,
04:26where countries can depend on their own sources. And for this, renewable energy is the solution. And so,
04:33this is what we wanted to address, as well as come together as regions to provide strong
04:39recommendations towards COP 31 of the Climate Change Convention, which will be held in Antalya
04:45and Turkey in November this year. Okay. So, Charles, you were at the meetings. Talk to me about what you
04:51observed in terms of the discussion, especially what Malaysia brings to the table in these kind of talks.
04:58I think there are a couple of issues that one can raise from the meeting and also from our discussion.
05:03One is that we are addicted to fossil fuels. Cheap fossil fuels too. At least in the case of
05:11Malaysia, it's cheap fossil fuels. Other countries are a bit more expensive. And our entire growth
05:17strategy is entirely premised on addiction to fossil fuels, oil and gas. And clearly now, the choke point,
05:25and this, as Nithi correctly pointed out, it is an illegal war, both in the context of UN
05:32Charter as well as US laws itself. But what it has created is choke points. So, the Straits of Hormuz,
05:39for example, has become a major choke point and it controls the movement of oil from that part of the
05:48world to the rest of Asia. And it is about 20% of all oil traded in the world goes
05:56to that Straits of Hormuz.
05:57Now, the impact of that choke point or that control over that access to the Straits of Hormuz is
06:06is reflected in the increase in prices in our grocery shops and also our cost of living.
06:12So, what happens in Iran, at least in this case of Straits of Hormuz, has got major impact on our
06:22quality
06:23of life, standard of living and cost of production. So, therefore, this raises many questions. So,
06:29we need to be dependent on the country itself, resilient. The word is resilient. So, the point is
06:35we need to move towards, we need to transit or transition away from fossil fuels to renewable
06:41energy. And Malaysia has got a remarkable good track record in that particular movement. And I think
06:47in the case of Malaysia, our target is 35% by 2030 of all renewable energy. And we are good
06:56right now,
06:56though. We are at this point in as of 2025, we have 31%. That means four points close to 35.
07:05But I think
07:05this is where the challenge is important. While our target is the 35% renewable energy by 2030, we need
07:13to
07:13upscale it right now. And maybe the 35% target should be made now to 50% target. And I
07:22think that's because
07:22there's an urgent need for that, an urgent need for that. And how long this war is going to go,
07:29it's not very clear. And the repercussions of it is going to stay with us for a long period of
07:34time.
07:35So, we have no other way of doing this. So, we can't open up new coal mines, because it will
07:40take
07:40another four years to do that. But the easier way is to upscale what you already have.
07:45So, therefore, upscale renewable energy, especially solar power, especially solar power.
07:51So, in the context of renewable energy, we have big contribution. And Malaysia has scaled up quite
07:57a bit on solar power from 17% in 2020 to 49% in 2025, which is quite good. So,
08:08now scale it up.
08:08Okay. So, there's capacity there. Just to build on it, right, Nipi? Was that echoed amongst all the
08:15other participants at the meetings, particularly from other countries? Do they see this war as tragic
08:23as it is, an opportunity to scale up the energy transition? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean,
08:32first, we have to recognize that this illegal war is a tragedy in terms of the cost of human lives.
08:37Yet, all countries are very united in the fact that they need to transition away and stop their
08:43reliance on fossil fuels. And another point is also that it is going to deepen each country's debt
08:51crisis. Because with costs going up, it's going to lead to greater debt. And this is also linked to
08:57the recommendations we had on climate finance. And if we could just add to what Charles said just now,
09:02in addition to transitioning towards renewable energy, we also need to step up our energy
09:07efficiency, which is a low-hanging fruit. And with just improving standards for appliances,
09:1330% of demand for energy can be reduced. So, the energy efficiency is equally critical.
09:20Are we not efficiently using our energy? No, we're not. Okay. In what way? Can you...
09:26Our appliances, the standards of our appliance can be... Meaning the things that we have at home?
09:31The refrigerators, the air conditions. Of course, first, we need to go for energy conservation. We've
09:35got to minimize the use. We're also over-reliant on private vehicles for transportation in this
09:40country, you know. So, the appliances, you know, your energy... I mean, your air conditions,
09:47your televisions, your washing machines, your refrigerators. By raising our standards... And
09:53I've written an article on this. Raising our standards to minimum standards of China, we can
09:59really reduce our energy use in this country. How much did you say was 30% you said? 30%. Wow.
10:04Just by appliance efficiency. Okay. That's quite remarkable. I want to talk to you about something
10:11that's been in the news recently. So, we have had conversations about, yes, there is an urgency
10:19now to transition away from fossil fuels given the prices, the global prices at the moment. Maybe
10:25center green energy more now. But there's also been calls for Malaysia to
10:34explore nuclear energy. And that is, I guess, a question that we have to think about.
10:40Is the urgency around energy security right now, can that be used to justify decisions that might not
10:51withstand scrutiny during normal times? I'm just curious to know how you see it. Is it when we talk about
10:59reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, Niti? Absolutely not.
11:03We shouldn't use this crisis to bring in solutions through the back door.
11:09That's my concern, right?
11:11Yes. Which are false and which are going to be costly and which are going to create dependency.
11:19So, if you're talking about nuclear, I mean, a plant takes about 12 to 14 years to be built.
11:25They talk about small modular reactors and really that evidence for that is not there.
11:29But it comes back to the same thing. Your raw materials, you still have to depend on someone else
11:35to provide you with the raw materials to enrich uranium. So, there's no security again,
11:40there's no sovereignty. And then the cost, you know, it's a phenomenal cost and it's
11:47not practical. And do we also have the kind of human capacity, you know, the human resource capacity to
11:59manage these plants? So, we should reject nuclear totally.
12:04If I can just jump in on this. Sure.
12:07I think one of the earlier statements as a result of the war was made by the Petra Minister on
12:14energy sovereignty, as he called it. And he said that it's time to consider nuclear power plants as
12:19an option. And I think there are many issues surrounding that. One is the cost factor.
12:25But if you look at the Malaysia, the 13th Malaysia plant, it says that Malaysia should start implementing
12:32or start harvesting nuclear energy beginning 2031, which is another five years more. That is not going
12:39to happen though. So, we will never be able to meet that target. If all you know, it will be
12:452035,
12:46which is another 10 more years to go. And number two, they're looking at what
12:50Niti said, looking at SMR, small modular reactors. And the ones that you have in China as well as in
12:57Russia are both having problems as we speak in terms of the operationals and so on. And they're
13:03very costly. So, they will cost you about two billion to three billion US dollars, which is
13:08transmitted to six to nine billion Malaysian ringgit. Now, if you take that six billion ringgit and harvest
13:14it or invested in solar development, in solar power, it will be faster, quicker and more sustainable.
13:22Right. So, I think we need to look at some kind of cost benefit analysis on this
13:26way forward. And also, I think the government also, I think, saw the perception that because of data
13:32centers, because of high use of energy, there's a need for nuclear power plants. That is one of the
13:38arguments that they have made. But data centers are based in Johor as well as in Sabajaya and so on.
13:46But Johor, a large part of Johor is in the earthquake fault line, fault lines though,
13:51in recent parliament answers inquiries. So, therefore, there is number one. Number two,
13:57you need to have local consultations, which has not happened. So, not in my backyard approach.
14:03Yes. So, there are many, many of these issues. But the big issue is actually how are you going to
14:08deal with the toxic waste? How are you going to manage toxic waste? So, that is a cost factor
14:15itself. So, while putting up the building, the structure itself is two to three billion,
14:20but somehow they always conveniently leave out the management of the toxic waste. Where are you
14:25going to park it though? And that's very costly. And even more costlier than that is a decommissioning
14:30of it after it's used. And sometimes decommissioning, as an experience of Germany,
14:35can cost more than putting up the building. Oh my goodness. There's an entire life cycle to this.
14:40Charles, if I may just stay with you. We talked about some of the policy risks that could come
14:45during this war. But I want to talk to you about political risk, especially given your experience as
14:51the former MP for Klang. During times of crisis, I think it's really difficult for governments to,
14:59or they struggle to sell climate action in particular, especially when cost of living
15:05pressures dominate, right? How do you think, would there be challenges in sustaining public support for
15:14climate policies that may feel expensive or disruptive, especially in times of economic
15:21anxiety and rising costs? I think the best way to answer your question would be about, it's about
15:28leadership. The government has to provide the leadership and say, yes, we have a problem. There are
15:35many ways of handling the problem and the government feels this is the way to go with it. And one
15:40of the
15:40one of the ways is to start looking at renewable energy in a very serious fashion. And what are the
15:45advantages of that and how people can, people can benefit. But I think we have to recognize the
15:51fact that this is going to cause an affordability crisis or a cost of living crisis because, because
15:58of the, because we are so, as a result of the choke point involving the Straits of Hormuz, 6,000
16:05different
16:06products prices will increase, 6,000. That means that there's a knock-on effect because of oil and gas
16:16and also, and what you do with them. So, for example, you will have problems with plastics, plastic price will
16:23increase, medical equipment will increase, your, your, your, your medicine, your pharmaceutical price will
16:29increase, your food prices will increase. So the knock-on effect will impact 6,000 different goods and services
16:36in the country. So there is going to be a problem. So a government has to say how they're going
16:41to
16:41manage that as a way of assuring people that things are under control. And people recognize that this is
16:47a crisis, they can stomach the sacrifice, but the leadership must tell them that we have a way out.
16:53So you need to provide that confidence.
16:56Nidhi, do you think climate goals tend to take a back seat in times of crisis, especially economic
17:02affordability crisis?
17:03Yes, for sure. We've already been seeing that, especially in terms of finance for addressing
17:11climate change contributed by the developed countries to the developing countries, that has
17:16been going down rapidly and now even more so. And we see this reflected during the climate change
17:25negotiations where every time, you know, the climate change convention enshrined in the convention is the
17:31principle of equity, of common but differentiated responsibilities and respective capabilities,
17:38which means that developed countries are obligated to provide finance to developing countries to address
17:46climate change and to transition away, you know, to decarbonize. Yet, this quantum of finance,
17:53there's so much resistance in providing to it. And if you look at developing countries,
17:58developed countries using more than their fair share of the carbon budget, what they need to be,
18:04what they need to contribute to developing countries is 5 trillion US dollars a year.
18:10That is what they have, you know, that is what their obligation is.
18:15That's a T.
18:15T. Trillion.
18:17Trillion. And this is well documented in academic papers. And what we have seen is the contributions
18:25are going less and less. And then the qualitative aspects of it is also muddied. We are talking
18:30about grant-based public finance. What is coming is commercial loans is being counted, ODA is being
18:37counted, they're throwing everything, yes, there has to be paid back with interest, which is aggravating the
18:44debt crisis. So, and so the real irony is, you know, and the real tragedy here is, they say, oh,
18:53because by
18:53developing countries having developing countries and we address climate change, the whole planet
18:57benefits. And that's not how it's being seen. Yet, when it comes to developed countries being asked
19:06to increase their military budget to 5% of their GDP, it's like, yeah, okay, if you got the money,
19:12we'll find it. What about climate change? Sorry, no money.
19:15Yes. Climate goals become deprioritized, I think. How do we make sure that, at least in Malaysia,
19:24that we don't let that happen? That we keep our government accountable so that when external
19:31crises bleed into a domestic economic affordability crisis, that it doesn't become a convenient excuse to
19:38delay climate action or to scale back climate urgency. Charles, do you have thoughts about what
19:45Malaysia can realistically do and how we can keep the government accountable?
19:49I think we need to go back to the National Energy Transformation Roadmap, which is the policy paper
19:58that governs Malaysia's energy transition. And I think we need to scale up, scale up in an urgent fashion,
20:06which means that we need to invest more money into renewable energy, especially on solar power.
20:13I think this is where we can learn from China as well. China has gone leaps and bounds in terms
20:19of
20:19technology and so on. And just for information of our listeners and our discussion, in the 24 days of
20:26the fight, the war in between the US, Israel and Iran, China received the first 24 days
20:3670 billion US dollars investment in solar battery, solar storage and solar power investments.
20:46Three companies, 70 billion. So business is seeing an opportunity here. So I think this is something
20:53that we can learn from and it is something we can also take advantage. So if we had actually done
20:59our
20:59homework and scaled up, say, solar power or renewable energy, we can now export that to some other country.
21:07It's a missed opportunity, I guess. Massive missed opportunity. So I think this is a learning moment.
21:13And I think we need to think out of the box and provide leadership. This is what we are lacking,
21:19leadership.
21:19Lepi.
21:48Lepi.
21:49Lepi.
21:50As I said, it's being held from the 28th to the 29th of April and it will provide all the
21:56means that countries
21:57can address the whole dependency on fossil fuels and transition away, including, you know, things
22:04like grid modification. Because even when you enhance renewable energy supply, the grids are not
22:10able to handle it. So it's going to be very broad based. And it's also a chance to have,
22:15bring the conversation of fossil fuels because it's not happening within the climate change convention
22:20even though it is fossil fuels which overwhelmingly contribute to greenhouse gas emissions
22:26so there's no mention of oil gas or coal in the climate convention and partly that's also because
22:32one of the biggest delegations to the convention to the cops the conference of parties are
22:37representatives of the fossil fuel industry so they prevent you know any strong language coming
22:42out on false you know taking action against the fossil fuels so in a way this will be a
22:48complementary meeting where we can focus on fossil fuels and hopefully it will lead to countries agreeing
22:54to come up with a treaty a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty which will address the
23:00whole issue of the proliferation of fossil fuel very quickly in the time we have left can you
23:05tell us a little bit about how you think this could um influence the the war right now might
23:11uh influence the issues being discussed at cop 31 at the end of the year the war has already led
23:18to
23:18escalating fossil fuel prices so countries and it's hurting countries you know like i said it will also
23:25contribute to their debt crisis so they are looking now for means to get out of this even in our
23:32national
23:32newspapers about a week ago it was the it was almost half the newspaper was on the need to transition
23:38away
23:39to renewable energy so countries are uh feeling the pain and they really want to look for solutions so
23:46do you think that we might see more of an emphasis um or or a de-emphasis on fossil fuels
23:54at uh cop 31
23:55you would think so yes i want to hope so
24:01well we have the ability to create the mechanism for just transition so the landmark breakthrough at
24:08cop 30 last year was on the decision to develop a mechanism for just transition and at cop 31 in
24:16november this year we have to get the mechanism because that will be all encompassing and will
24:21include just energy transition so it's very critical and we have coined the term for the mechanism we want we
24:26call it the bam the bellum entalia mechanism so the brazil turkey and this is the moment though this
24:34is because this gives you the opportunity and to make the argument uh and everybody is feeling it
24:40people will support it but again as i said leadership gentlemen thank you so much for being on the show
24:46with me today i appreciate your time thank you that's all we have for you on this episode of consider
24:50this
24:50thanks i'm melissa idris signing off for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
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