00:00Back here in Brussels, there is discomfort over reports the Hungarian foreign minister
00:05and the Hungarian government have allegedly been informing Russian authorities about the content
00:09of private EU meetings. Euronews' Maria Tadeo sat down with the former president of the European
00:15Commission, José Manuel Barroso, and asked him what exactly he thought about these allegations.
00:20These news are indeed very disturbing and greatly concerning because the European Union, you know,
00:27it's made on trust. Trust among the member states. So in fact, as you mentioned, I was leading many
00:35European Union meetings and of course with Hungary and the others. I respect all countries, but
00:41sometimes there are governments that do not respect some fundamental principles, including this principle
00:47that is not a vague principle. It's in fact the principle that is in the treaty, it's in the Lisbon
00:53Treaty,
00:54Article 4, number 3, it's the duty of sincere cooperation among member states. So if one country
01:01is now briefing or debriefing other countries on very sensitive matters, and other countries in this
01:10case, Russia being today a clear opponent, not to say an enemy of the European Union, so of course it
01:16is
01:16greatly concerning. And the clarifications provided so far by the Hungarian government are not really
01:24clarifications. In fact, in a way, it's even worse, because if I understood correctly, according to the
01:29media reports I've seen, the Hungarian foreign minister said that he irregularly briefs not only Russia,
01:37but the United States, Turkey, Israel, and Serbia on this matter. Correct. So the very fact that the
01:44government of the European Union and a NATO country puts at the same level the United States and Russia,
01:53it's quite strange, I would say. And I think it raises very important matters of loyalty among member states.
02:02But the question, sir, and obviously, you know, the treaty is very well, is what can the EU do about
02:07this? Because the feeling that we get in Brussels is that there are no tools to counter this.
02:12No, there are tools. But first of all, I think I always thought this is basically political. So and
02:17there are ways of European countries and European institutions to show their concerns and also
02:24somehow politically to act on this matter. So it means that tomorrow, if Hungary makes the point or
02:32any country says, we are a sovereign country, we can do this on our own. Yes, they are sovereign. But
02:40one thing they should understand is that the others are also sovereign. So the others can also meet
02:45without Hungary. So what does that mean?
02:48You see that tomorrow for sensitive matters. There is nothing in the treaties that makes it impossible
02:55the others, the other 27 or in this case, the other 26 or 25, depending on those countries who break
03:02the rules, not to be in the same room with the others. In the past, it already happened in a
03:07way. It was not
03:09so dramatic. But you remember when during the financial crisis, when some countries pushed for a fiscal
03:16compact, the fiscal treaty, I remember it was the United Kingdom that said, our sovereignty should
03:22be respected. We don't want that treaty. And at that time, other countries said, look, you have
03:27your own sovereignty. But if you don't have that treaty, okay, we don't do it with the European
03:32assets, but we do it with ourselves. There are very clear, besides the legal matters, because from a
03:39legal point of view, the European Union can launch infringements if there is a violation of Article 4
03:45of the Lisbon Treaty. But beyond the legal measures, I think it's even more effectively,
03:51politically, we can always show to a country that behaves like that, not respecting the basic
03:57principles of decency, that the countries can move on politically as well.
04:01So, Mr. Barroso, because this is very important, your advice for the head of the commission,
04:06Father Lion, for Kayakalas, the capitals right now is not to wait for the clarification or the legal
04:11assessment, but to simply cut them out. Don't invite them into meetings.
04:15No, I did not say that.
04:17No.
04:17What I said, and by the way, not just to the president, basically, this is for the president
04:21of the European Council. This is not for the European Commission as such. Because it's a matter
04:27of breaking the confidence between the countries themselves. And it is, in fact,
04:31leaking information about the European Council. So, what I think, first of all, they should clarify,
04:38if the clarification is not sufficient. I think in some matters, the president of the European Council
04:44can perfectly say, now we are going to meet without Hungary. It's very important that we have in Hungary,
04:52and in all member states, countries and governments that respect the basic principles of decent behavior
05:00and trust. And if they don't, in fact, there should be a reaction of the other countries and European
05:07institutions.
05:07When you look at the European leadership now, you talk about the different voices and the
05:11different sensitivities. Who is best representing the interests of the European Union on the global
05:16stage?
05:18I know. There is always that debate in Europe about a kind of a face.
05:22I believe that's not the right approach to European leadership. The question that we have to ask
05:30ourselves, are we in Europe in favor of having someone in Brussels signing executive orders like
05:37the U.S. president? No, we don't have. The commission is doing its job. The president of the European Council
05:42is
05:42doing its job. Other governments, namely the governments of the most influential countries, are trying to do
05:47their job. So it's, by definition, European leadership is more institutional-based than personal-based,
05:54which is not necessarily bad, you see. And I think it's, with that experience of 22 years in
06:00European Union and decision-making, I tell you, we are not going to get in the future, in the foreseeable
06:05future, one voice, one face, one leader. And although very often I said, I like to have, because it will
06:13be
06:13quicker, it will be more decisive. The reality is that there are also some advantages in avoiding
06:18a centralized, completely centralized leadership, because sometimes we have seen other parts of
06:25the world, it does not work better, because they are only one.
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