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00:01On this edition of The Fifth Estate, we're on St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia, the richest part of Canada's
00:10billion-dollar lobster industry, where there's a war on the water.
00:14Go home.
00:15You go home, lady.
00:18Intimidation and frequent threats of violence.
00:21Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up, people getting shot at.
00:26You hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:30The fight over who gets to fish here has left communities bitter and divided.
00:35We're not pirates. We're not the villains.
00:37Does racism play a role here, do you think?
00:39Uh, no.
00:42A dispute with roots older than Canada itself.
00:45Love's not going anywhere. It's been around for a very long time.
00:49We look at who is cashing in on the chaos.
00:52I'm sick of it. There's nothing to do with conservation. It's just, it's total greed.
00:56We're not going anywhere. It's even best.
00:58I'm Steven D'Souza. This is The Fifth Estate.
01:01It's determined.
01:02We're all ready.
01:20All right.
01:21Yeah!
01:21Yeah!
01:27Call me!
01:29Hella, man!
01:29That's the truth.
01:30Oh, we think nobody knows how to be.
01:35Oh, there's some biggins in there, boys.
01:40Some biggins.
01:41Save a couple of those.
01:42Save a couple of these.
01:43Yeah, I want to take a picture of us, all three of us holding the jumbos.
01:47Just take my picture with this big lobster.
01:49The kids will get a kick out of it at least.
01:52And remember, you've got to hold it up like this.
01:57Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
02:00Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope to lose himself in the moment.
02:05To cast aside briefly the battle taking place here.
02:09It's just, when you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
02:18How many traps do you put out usually?
02:20Like, if I'm doing mortar?
02:21Yeah.
02:23Like, when I was doing it here and I got charged, I was fishing a half a shot of gear.
02:27So I was fishing 150 traps.
02:29And I had two other band members with me.
02:31So we were fishing about 50 traps apiece.
02:35Right.
02:36And during the commercial season, how many?
02:39We fished 300, which is a full shot.
02:41Full shot.
02:41Yeah.
02:44But this is the boat you were in when all the trouble went down.
02:46Yeah.
02:47Initially, yeah.
02:51Navigating the politics of these waters is far from easy.
02:54Every time the 39-year-old father of six sets out, he's putting himself at risk of threats, violence, and
03:01arrest for something he believes he has every right to do.
03:06What do you want them to understand about the dispute, like what's happening here?
03:09I want them to understand that we're not poachers.
03:12We're not pirates.
03:13I was selling my catch to make money for my family.
03:16The waters in Atlantic Canada have long been harvested for lobster.
03:19The region is parceled into sections, each with its own strict rules for when lobster boats can go out.
03:25These are known as commercial seasons.
03:28Here in this part of Nova Scotia, St. Mary's Bay is fished commercially from November to May.
03:33One in five lobsters fished in Canada come from here.
03:37You weren't hiding anything, right?
03:38You were...
03:38No, absolutely.
03:40I had bright buoys.
03:42I had my phone number, my name on them.
03:46I actually wanted them to call me so I could explain to them what I was doing.
03:52Cope is licensed to fish during this area's commercial season,
03:55but he also fishes much smaller amounts out of season,
03:59a controversial practice that more than once has caught the eye of officers with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO.
04:07I have no problem fishing in season.
04:09I mean, that's what they're always going on about.
04:11Oh, if you just fish in season, if you just fish in season.
04:13And then we fish in season and it's still a big deal.
04:16And basically they said they were going to take my boat.
04:18Who's that, DFO?
04:19DFO, yeah.
04:26Cope is Mi'kmaq.
04:27They're the predominant First Nations group in Nova Scotia.
04:32He traces his right to fish here to treaties signed with the British Crown in the 1700s.
04:38So there's a hierarchy here in Nova Scotia because of these treaties that there's a hierarchy.
04:43It goes commercial-based fisheries, which is a privilege-based fisheries,
04:48and then there's rights-based fisheries, which is higher.
04:52In the heart of St. Mary's Bay, at the wharf in Sonyeville,
04:55the dispute over the hierarchy, as Cope describes it, unfolded in 2020.
05:01Mi'kmaq launched a rights-based fishery outside the commercial season,
05:05and it caught international attention.
05:08We're right on schedule.
05:09We're going to have our elder Becky Gillian give us an opening prayer.
05:15Journalist Maureen Gugu covered the event.
05:17Five years ago, during the middle of the COVID pandemic,
05:22the Smeagnegadi First Nation decided to launch its own moderate-livelihood fishery.
05:28Yeah!
05:30We covered the speeches.
05:32We got shots of them giving out lobster tags to fishermen,
05:35and then they were going on the boats.
05:40As soon as they went on the boats,
05:42they were met with, like, a flotilla of non-indigenous fishers
05:46who were ready to take those traps out of the water,
05:49and there was clashes.
05:51Not welcome here!
05:52No! You're welcome here!
05:53You just said we're not welcome!
05:54You said to go home!
05:55Don't spend our money instead of taking our money!
05:57Go home!
05:58You go home, lady!
06:00And that went on for about a good two-month period
06:06in that area, and it got very violent.
06:08It got very scary.
06:10They said they won't let me leave unless they have my lobsters.
06:14There was fishermen, you know,
06:16who were trapped inside of a fishing plant at one point
06:19and with non-indigenous fishermen threatening to burn them out.
06:28That wharf is now fenced off.
06:30Entry is controlled.
06:34But it doesn't keep away the tension that's still sharply felt here
06:38by the First Nations fishers on the other side,
06:41even in this postcard setting.
06:56The Clare region of southern Nova Scotia
06:58takes pride in its Acadian roots
07:00and its connection to the sea.
07:03Here, the lobster business touches everyone in some way
07:06and is the lifeblood of these communities.
07:08Outside of the Halifax area, once you start coming west,
07:12probably every coastal community,
07:14its main economic driver is the lobster fishery.
07:17The lobster fishery is the big enchilada.
07:19If it wasn't for that,
07:21I'm not sure how many of these smaller communities,
07:23coastal communities, actually could survive.
07:25My father owned a small fish plant.
07:27Anyway, I ended up,
07:28like a lot of the smaller communities around here,
07:30most everybody ended up going fishing.
07:33Bernie Berry sets the table
07:34for what the commercial fishers see as the key issue.
07:37At the end of the day,
07:39it's the stock is the main worry here.
07:44And without the stock,
07:44a healthy stock or a sustainable stock,
07:47nobody has nothing.
07:49Okay?
07:50And so we've got to get our head together
07:52and we've got to take better care of this.
07:56There's still lobsters here,
07:57but you cannot harvest them in the summer
08:00and expect them to be there
08:01in the commercial season in the fall.
08:03It doesn't work that way.
08:04And the problem with the harvest in the summer,
08:07it's unregulated.
08:08It's not supposed to be happening.
08:09When you talk to commercial fishermen,
08:11they say that the moderate livelihood fishery,
08:14anything out of season
08:15is dangerous to the stocks.
08:17They may say that to you.
08:19They never say that to me.
08:20Somebody that knows better.
08:21The question of First Nations impact on lobster stocks
08:25has been trailing them for a long time.
08:27Questions remain unresolved.
08:30What are the natives entitled to?
08:31How many plan to enter the fishery
08:33and for which species?
08:34That's what the fight's all about.
08:36Lobsters.
08:37A few lobsters.
08:38First Nations fishers say their treaty rights
08:41were upheld by a 1999 Supreme Court decision.
08:45Donald Marshall was charged and convicted
08:48of fishing and selling eels without a license.
08:51Marshall was out to make a point
08:52on behalf of all Mi'kmaq that they have the right
08:55not only to hunt and fish without a license,
08:57but also to make a living doing it.
09:01The Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq,
09:03just 5% of the province's population,
09:06have a right to fish and sell their catch
09:08to make what the court called a moderate livelihood.
09:13We're here to make sure our kids in the future
09:18will have something better.
09:20Because that's so weak.
09:22Like, look at them.
09:23Some bands have negotiated agreements
09:25with DFO to do that,
09:27but the government wants them to sell
09:29only during commercial seasons.
09:31It looks like he's going to make it, though.
09:33Oh, yeah, he's flopping.
09:33He's swimming now.
09:34But Cope says he should be able to fish
09:36for a moderate livelihood when needed.
09:39I don't like that they limit the potential
09:42of what we can make based on a term
09:44such as moderate livelihood.
09:48The opposition is still there,
09:50though not as overt as the open clashes of 2020.
09:54Indigenous fishers, a lot of them have talked about
09:57dealing with racism on the waters
09:59when they fish with non-Indigenous fishers.
10:13I don't think people realize how racism affects an individual.
10:18It's very personal, and it's very stressful.
10:20And sometimes your life is put at risk because of it.
10:25So I think, you know, for the fishermen that I've interviewed,
10:30they would prefer to have a season where they could fish
10:35without feeling like they're being discriminated against.
10:38Some folks, some First Nations individuals will say
10:42that they are permitted to have a moderate livelihood fishery.
10:48Well, the Supreme Court said that.
10:50Yeah, but it's never been defined.
10:52You know, does racism play a role here, do you think?
10:57I don't think.
10:58I mean, back in 2020, that's how, unfortunately,
11:02I think it was painted.
11:04But I think what it was, I mean, certainly the communities here
11:08and the fishermen were painted as racist because, I mean,
11:11things exploded, First Nations gear was cut off and all that.
11:15That was just pent-up frustration, anger,
11:19because nobody in the government seemed to be or wanted to help,
11:23and they took it upon themselves.
11:25Was it right?
11:26No, but no.
11:35What do you think is at the heart of their opposition?
11:37It's a very passionate field, fishing.
11:39I mean, right from your fishing ground, how you tie your traps,
11:43what bait you use, your family's been doing it for so long,
11:46et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
11:48so that if you feel like you're entitled to something,
11:50I get that they're going to be mad that there's people out there
11:52fishing and making money.
11:53Well, they're not.
11:55But we could talk about residential schools.
11:57We could talk about the systematic racism.
12:00We could talk about the racism we get from the commercial fishing.
12:03But when it all comes down to it, we have a treaty right to do so.
12:05And if any one of them could fish in between the season,
12:09you guess what?
12:10They'll be out there fishing.
12:16But fishing out of season, as Cope has been doing,
12:19puts him in a tough spot, not just with commercial fishermen.
12:23DFO considers that illegal,
12:25leaving him few options to sell whatever he catches.
12:29Do you find you have places to sell
12:31when you're doing the moderate livelihood?
12:34Or how hard is it to sell during that time?
12:36It all depends on you.
12:38Like, I have the connections and the resources
12:40to be able to sell to, like, very broad markets.
12:44But for the person that don't have as good connections,
12:48then that's all they can do.
12:53Somebody can really nickel and dime them, right?
12:56In 2023, Canada's lobster industry
12:59pulled in almost $1.8 billion,
13:02almost half of that coming from Nova Scotia.
13:05With so much money in play,
13:06Bernie Berry alleges fishing in the summer
13:09is being leveraged into big sales.
13:13This is simply a notice season commercial black market fishery
13:19because it is profitable.
13:21And most of the stuff that's being bought in here
13:24is being bought in cash and or drugs.
13:27Your average lobster buyer isn't doing that.
13:30So somebody else has got to be involved and stuff like that.
13:33How do you know that?
13:34Are you hearing stories or reports?
13:36Yeah, well, again, it's just anecdotal stuff.
13:43But what is the reality here?
13:45In a place where little goes unnoticed,
13:48we try to get to the bottom of what's really happening on the wharf.
13:53Coming up...
13:54How do I look? Terrible?
13:55We follow the money in the alleged black market.
13:58You can say I came out threatening
13:59or I sound threatening to arrest me.
14:01Who is in danger?
14:03As soon as I looked up at the wall
14:04and saw a pretty clear hole,
14:06it's pretty obvious it was a bullet.
14:08And just who has the right to fish lobster in these waters?
14:12Even if half of what they're saying is true,
14:14most people wouldn't even believe it.
14:29In this seaside town,
14:31for some,
14:32the only thing bigger than the love of lobster
14:34is the fear of the crime around the industry.
14:36This is the Clare region
14:39with a population of just 8,500,
14:41where the lobster business in this small town
14:44has brought big city problems.
14:49I mean, I grew up here.
14:51I love my hometown.
14:52And it's hard seeing it being abused so badly.
14:56The towns along this shore
14:58have recently seen more than their fair share of crime.
15:01The Fifth Estate has tracked allegations of extortion,
15:05assault,
15:07arson,
15:08even threats to kill a dog.
15:10At one point,
15:11it was happening so frequently,
15:12you couldn't even keep up with what was going on.
15:14And there's poaching going on from Yarmouth to anywhere.
15:17You know, it's so vast.
15:18The ocean's hard to control.
15:20J.C. Cummo runs a business at the Mataggan Wharf.
15:23It's coming primarily from the fact
15:25that this legal underground poaching activity
15:27generates a lot of money to a handful of people.
15:30And they will do everything they possibly can
15:32to keep it going.
15:34But what is really tearing apart this community?
15:37Many commercial fishers pointed the finger
15:39at the First Nations activity on Soniaville Wharf.
15:43First Nations can go out in the summer legally
15:46under a license known as FSC.
15:49Fishers can harvest limited amounts
15:51for food, social, and ceremonial purposes.
15:55But they're not allowed to sell their catch.
15:59According to this internal report from DFO,
16:01authorities have evidence confirming
16:03that lobster-caught in FSC
16:05is being illegally sold,
16:07often through unreported cash sales.
16:10But is that the whole story?
16:13This guy right here is a small jumbo,
16:15so he's between three to four pounds.
16:17That's a big boy.
16:23Joffrey Joubert moved back to the Clare area
16:25from Halifax in 2020
16:27to manage the family business.
16:30To the outside eye,
16:31the lobster processing business
16:33seems straightforward.
16:34So in a crate that we had seen earlier,
16:36those grey boxes,
16:38they hold about 100 pounds
16:39just mixed in there.
16:41Buy lobsters from boats on the wharf,
16:43get the seafood out to distributors
16:45around the world.
16:46And then the trays are going to
16:48individually partition each lobster,
16:50and that's just to prevent them
16:51from eating each other.
16:52Did you have a sense of what
16:53you were getting yourself into?
16:54I had known a little bit
16:55that it can be a somewhat rough industry
16:57and one that's not always governed the best,
17:01I guess you could say.
17:01Or you hear stories that's a little lawless
17:04sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
17:07Buyers like Joubert have to go buy the book.
17:09We're not allowed to buy a seasoned lobster,
17:11and I think we'd face a hefty fine if we did.
17:13I don't think the indigenous people support
17:16or want any of the criminal activity
17:17that's going on
17:19that their middlemen may be doing.
17:21I think they're just trying to find a place
17:22to sell their catch.
17:23So typically, like, commercial fishermen
17:24the last little while,
17:25they make them like $8 to $10 a pound.
17:28And then I've heard rumors
17:30that the indigenous fishermen
17:31are only going to pay around $4 a pound
17:32because it is an illegal lobster,
17:34kind of like a gray zone lobster,
17:35whatever you want to call it.
17:36Yeah.
17:36And I think that's just too low
17:39for the species they're dealing with.
17:42But, I mean, from what you've seen,
17:43I mean, would you describe it as organized crime
17:45or what would you describe it as?
17:48Somewhat organized,
17:49but I wouldn't say it's like a huge operation
17:51or such large scale.
17:56In early 2024,
17:58Joubert started buying from a new boat,
18:00and trouble followed.
18:03The story goes that that boat
18:04had upset some people.
18:06So they started making small threats
18:09here and there, right,
18:10like a text message or something like that
18:12to leave that boat alone.
18:13And I guess it kind of just boiled over
18:15to the point of that gunshot happening.
18:18That fall, a bullet ripped through his home.
18:22I cut through the dining room, the kitchen,
18:24and stopped in the living room.
18:26It just seemed so crazy and intense,
18:28not something I'd experienced before.
18:30Do you feel scared,
18:30knowing that there are individuals
18:32out there capable of this kind of stuff?
18:34I definitely feel uneasy.
18:35There's some reckless individuals like that
18:37that would, you know,
18:39go to those extents
18:41almost for nothing, for pride maybe.
18:46No one has been charged in that shooting.
18:52But we did track down
18:53one of the men charged
18:55with a number of lobster industry-related crimes,
18:58including allegedly threatening Joubert.
19:00If he doesn't answer the front, try the side.
19:03Yeah.
19:03Yeah.
19:04He calls himself a shady,
19:06fly-by-night lobster dealer.
19:08Fine.
19:09Have a good day.
19:10There were weeks of negotiations
19:12to get him on camera,
19:13including a few in-person visits.
19:22He eventually agrees to sit down with CBC Nova Scotia reporter Richard Cuthbertson.
19:28We're in the Lobster Mafia, or my dad don't even talk after the time.
19:31It's not like it's...
19:35I'm just, yeah, born in every town, I guess.
19:37I don't know.
19:37This is 33-year-old Zachary Thibault.
19:40He's currently on house arrest.
19:42If the Thibault family is an organized family,
19:44they've got to change the definition.
19:45A bunch of degenerate drug addicts driving around
19:47and being assholes, about it.
19:50We wanted to know if he shot at Jouffrey Joubert's home.
19:53Turns out Thibault was in jail at the time.
19:56Can't shoot that far.
19:58Not from Burnside, anyways.
19:59Yeah, you were in jail.
20:00We know Thibault is facing charges for threatening to kill Joubert,
20:05extortion, and harassment.
20:07Thibault says he's done some bad things,
20:09but denies those allegations.
20:12So, you know, I went to jail this year.
20:13I was guilty on those I went to jail for,
20:14but definitely not f***ing guilty on this one.
20:18But beyond his criminal past,
20:20we wanted his insight.
20:21He says for years he worked as an unlicensed broker.
20:26So this is all cash?
20:27Yeah, most of it.
20:28Yeah, so how much cash are we talking about?
20:30$50,000, $100,000.
20:32Like, you've got $50,000.
20:33Yep.
20:34Like, what are you carrying in?
20:35Yeah.
20:37Pringle box, Pringle box, overboot,
20:40middle-link truck, whatever.
20:41You're just driving around $50,000 in cash?
20:43Yep.
20:45He says unreported cash sales are a tax dodge
20:48and happen more often than people realize.
20:51There's 1,688 boats in District 33, 34.
20:55There's not one of them that doesn't sell lobster's cash.
20:58But you don't know for certain that those fishermen
21:00are not declaring that money on their taxes.
21:02If they report it, I'm a porn star.
21:04There's about as much likelihood as one is the other.
21:06Let me ask you this.
21:07You're unreported.
21:08All the business that you did,
21:09you're unreported sales.
21:10How much of that was Indigenous?
21:12How much non-Indigenous?
21:14No, 10% Indigenous.
21:16Yeah, 10, yeah, 10, 15%.
21:19And the rest is non-Indigenous?
21:21Yeah.
21:22Do you think this is all being sort of used
21:25to fuel this sort of energy against the Indigenous fisheries?
21:30Absolutely, absolutely.
21:31Whether it be a scapegoat or just a lightning rod.
21:34It's just all lobster and all just lobster green.
21:37I'll bet my reputation is shitty as it may be on that.
21:42Thiebaud is making a point that echoes
21:44what many First Nations fishers told us.
21:47That they feel they're being unfairly blamed
21:49for risking stocks, causing crime, and illegally selling.
21:54I get angry when I hear it's illegal.
21:59You know, it doesn't need to be portrayed that way, right?
22:09Shelly Denny is a fishery scientist.
22:11She also researches Mi'kmaq self-governance
22:14and the harm that comes when treaties aren't respected.
22:18If we are fishing in season with non-Mi'kmaq lobster fishers,
22:23that we are at risk and that we can be targeted.
22:26Not every non-Mi'kmaq harvester is, you know,
22:30vile or, you know, against the fishery.
22:32But there are some out there who will very much
22:35make sure people are bothered
22:37and try as much as they can to discourage them
22:40from continuing to fish there.
22:44Some First Nations fishers at Soniaville told us
22:47they feel like they're being watched,
22:49their every move tracked.
22:53When we were there, commercial fishers parked outside the fence,
22:57sitting, watching.
22:59And I own a boat over there.
23:02This Mi'kmaq fisher tells us seeing the commercial fishers
23:05brought back visceral memories.
23:07She sees their presence as intimidation,
23:10though it's not always this obvious.
23:13Are you monitoring cameras?
23:15Are you, like, reviewing footage?
23:17Tell me about, like, just keeping a track of all this.
23:19Yeah, listen, again, the number of people
23:21that's got eyes on that place,
23:23and then with the drone footage and stuff like this,
23:26it's, there's not much that escapes us.
23:31Bernie Berry and other commercial fishers are watching,
23:34reporting what they see to DFO from their cars
23:37and from the air.
23:39People actually do some drone video.
23:42You can't deny videos.
23:45They claim these videos show lobster
23:48being illegally harvested for sale.
23:51If you can climb a fire escape or a ladder
23:53with one camera, you can get up above,
23:57outside of the gate, you know,
23:58when you're back here, you're safe and everything,
23:59and you can see the whole thing, what's going on.
24:02Dan Fleck is a retired DFO officer
24:05hired to help the commercial fishers.
24:07He says their surveillance is necessary.
24:10We needed to have video physical proof
24:14in the eyes of the Canadian public,
24:16because it's a Canadian resource for everyone
24:18to actually see how it's being exploited, overexploited.
24:25One thing First Nations and commercial fishers agree on,
24:29that DFO enforcement isn't hitting the mark.
24:32First Nations fishers tell us
24:34they feel it's criminalizing their treaty rights.
24:37Commercial fishers we spoke to say DFO
24:40isn't cracking down hard enough.
24:42So we feel some pressure.
24:44Noel D'Entremont leads conservation and protection
24:47for the maritime region.
24:48There's a lot of opinions on this matter,
24:52whether the community members here in Clare,
24:56commercial industry, First Nations communities,
24:59everyone has their side.
25:02What we do is enforcement is enforcement.
25:06How difficult is that though for your officers
25:08when they're out there
25:10and knowing they have to make these distinctions?
25:12Yeah, so it is very challenging for our officers
25:16and we do hear that.
25:17And that's where we try and give them the clarity
25:20that they need that.
25:22Keep in mind what is authorized and what isn't.
25:27This past summer across southwest Nova Scotia,
25:30DFO seized six boats and more than 1,500 traps
25:34filling their storage cages.
25:37Coming up, the long fight for Mi'kmaq managed fisheries.
25:41The government's reaction was severe, strong,
25:45crush the treaty fishery.
25:47This is our treaty!
25:49And the battle over the message.
25:51Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery
25:54could exist outside of the commercial season?
25:56No.
25:57No, I don't.
26:06And we're doing a lot of work right now,
26:08so there's like...
26:09So there's work, there's a lot of workers
26:11and stuff around, too.
26:15The majority of people that are out there fishing
26:17are all following the rules.
26:19The only thing that might differ is that
26:23some people fish out of season.
26:25As a Mi'kmaq fisherman and businessman,
26:27asserting what he says are his treaty rights,
26:30Matt Cope finds himself tangled in the web of accusations
26:33and anger surrounding the lobster fishery.
26:36And, um...
26:38So they drive by here, my house and stuff.
26:41An eight-foot fence now surrounds his yard,
26:44built in part to block the prying eyes
26:46of fisheries officers, who he says surveil him
26:49from the street and with drones,
26:51ever since his arrest on fishery charges in 2020.
26:55Did somebody give them instructions
26:57to specifically target, say, certain native targets?
27:02Do you know what I mean?
27:03Like, if that's the case,
27:04then I find that's kind of, uh...
27:09stereotypical.
27:10Maybe unjust.
27:14We have no problem trying to work for it.
27:17So it's frustrating because they call us lazy
27:19when we don't work.
27:20And when we do work, we're, uh...
27:23We're taking something from them.
27:25Call me criminal.
27:26Villains and poachers and organized crimes.
27:30Just...
27:31The list goes on and on.
27:32It's just fear-mongering.
27:34He says DFO plays into that fear.
27:38I mean, if there was an avenue
27:39where I could report my catch
27:41and, uh, do it completely on the books
27:44and it be regulated, then I would do that.
27:46I have no problem doing that.
27:48There's nothing black market about it at all.
27:51I mean, if we have the rights,
27:53then make it so that we can sell our catch
27:55to the buyers.
27:56Make it so that we can report our catch.
28:21They still love to go out there and fish.
28:23I mean, despite all the challenges,
28:25I mean, it's part of their core
28:27of who they are as Mi'kmaq.
28:29We've always been a coastal people
28:30and the fishery's always been a part of our life.
28:33And, uh, they absolutely love it out there.
28:36They absolutely love it.
28:37Uh, being able to fish,
28:39look after their families
28:40and look after their friends.
28:42And, uh, there's so much pride, uh,
28:45in being part of that.
28:47You gotta thank Dowl Marshall Jr.
28:50It all started there.
28:55In 1999,
28:56Dan Christmas was the executive chairperson
28:58of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians,
29:01a prominent member of the team
29:03supporting the Marshall case.
29:05And finally, I remember that day,
29:07September 17th, 1999,
29:09clearly as bell.
29:12I wasn't there for myself.
29:14I was there for my people.
29:16When our lawyer called us
29:18and said that we had won.
29:21And so that was, uh,
29:24probably one of the most
29:25happiest moments
29:27because I think we knew,
29:28all of us in that room,
29:30that things will never be the same again.
29:34In that landmark ruling,
29:36the Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq
29:38could fish for a so-called
29:39moderate livelihood.
29:41But the court left it up
29:42to First Nations
29:43and the federal government
29:44to negotiate
29:45what that term meant
29:47in practice.
29:50What does moderate livelihood mean?
29:53We have no idea.
29:54We always thought
29:55that was a fiction,
29:56a legal fiction
29:57that really had no meaning.
29:59It was almost discriminatory,
30:02almost racist
30:02to say, well, you know,
30:04everyone else can fish commercially,
30:06but when you do your fishery,
30:09you know,
30:09keep it down here.
30:11Don't make too much money off it.
30:15The Mi'kmaq were given the right
30:17to basically harvest
30:18the bounty of creation
30:21to sustain ourselves.
30:23That's how we understood it.
30:27In the following years,
30:29DFO did help expand Mi'kmaq fisheries,
30:31transferring licenses to them
30:33from commercial fishers.
30:35But Christmas says DFO
30:36avoided the key issue,
30:38one that would follow him
30:40later in his career.
30:41They wanted us to accept cash
30:43to enable First Nations
30:46to obtain boats, licenses,
30:50gear, training,
30:52but without ever referencing
30:55the treaty or the court case.
30:57And so it enabled the communities
30:59to enter into the fishery,
31:02the commercial fishery,
31:03in a big way.
31:04There was no recognition
31:06of our treaty right,
31:09what the court called
31:10a moderate fishery.
31:11And we continued
31:12to ask the government,
31:14are you going to set up
31:15a table to talk about
31:16the treaty right?
31:20And it was just silence.
31:22So why don't you just take yourself
31:23to the end of the war
31:24and respect us?
31:25We do respect you.
31:26Listen, do we have to blockade
31:28this war for what?
31:29That silence led to clashes
31:31when First Nations fishers
31:33took to the water
31:34and DFO responded in force.
31:37Oh, my God!
31:40You have a license
31:42issued by the Department of Fisheries
31:44to authorize you.
31:45That's what you have.
31:45You understand that?
31:47The fish is under full fishery.
31:49This is our treaty.
31:55Then, as now,
31:56commercial fishers
31:57have stood in opposition,
31:59arguing the stock
32:00must be protected.
32:04This is nowhere near aggressive.
32:07The various fishers associations
32:09have since taken their message
32:11to the courts,
32:12government,
32:12and media,
32:13forming the Unified Fisheries
32:15Conservation Alliance
32:16in 2020.
32:18We collected millions of dollars
32:20from our members
32:21and we have a key mandate
32:22and it's to pursue
32:23a legal resolution
32:25to the Marshall issue.
32:27Colin Sproul
32:28is the head of the Alliance.
32:30I think that a lot
32:31of Indigenous governments
32:32have perverted
32:33the Marshall decision
32:34into thinking
32:35that Marshall rights
32:38mean an open-ended
32:39accumulation of fishery access
32:41for coastal First Nations.
32:43Do you see a world
32:43in which the moderate
32:44livelihood fishery
32:45could exist outside
32:46of the commercial season?
32:47No.
32:48No, I don't.
32:49There's one lobster resource
32:50for Atlantic lobster
32:52and it needs to be managed
32:54under one set
32:54of management plans.
32:56Commercial fishers argue
32:57against expanding
32:58treaty fisheries
32:59by pointing to the off-season
33:01as a time
33:01when lobster
33:02can repopulate.
33:04This lobster here,
33:05ooh,
33:05lovely little eggs.
33:07They're always in
33:08some sort of
33:09reproductive season.
33:10They're not a very
33:11complicated species,
33:12you know,
33:13they're basically
33:14the insects of the sea.
33:15Shelley Denny
33:16is the director
33:17of aquatic research
33:18and stewardship
33:19at the Unamagi Institute
33:20of Natural Resources.
33:22It's healthy,
33:23it's been healthy.
33:24I mean,
33:24there's been some ups and downs
33:25like any other species
33:26that's fished commercially.
33:27The resource is fine,
33:29the lobster industry
33:29and the population
33:31seems to be doing great
33:32and, you know,
33:33there just needs to be
33:34more room made
33:35and more accommodations
33:35made for Mi'kmaq fishers.
33:37The level at which
33:38the Mi'kmaq are harvesting,
33:39even if they're harvesting
33:40during seasons
33:41where the lobster industry
33:44isn't,
33:45the impact would be minimal.
33:48The internal DFO memo
33:50we obtained
33:50through access to information
33:51confirms much
33:53of what she's saying.
33:54Dated June 13th,
33:56it says lobster stocks
33:57across the Maritimes,
33:58including around
33:59St. Mary's Bay,
34:00are in the healthy zone
34:02and that while
34:03the commercial catch
34:04is trending down in parts,
34:06DFO says the decrease
34:08has not been directly linked
34:10to the food,
34:11social and ceremonial fishery.
34:13Like,
34:14no matter what the government says,
34:16no matter what biologists say,
34:18we can see the effect
34:20of the incredible amount
34:22of illegal fishing.
34:23DFO's own science,
34:23though,
34:24is saying that overall
34:25the health of the stock
34:26is in good shape.
34:27So is that not
34:28a good enough sign
34:29that things are okay?
34:30And that there is enough
34:31for everyone?
34:32Certainly the lobster resource
34:33is in good shape,
34:35but it's important
34:35to understand why it is.
34:37Trap limits,
34:38releasing of buried females,
34:40minimum sizes,
34:41increasing the minimum size,
34:43escape vents in our traps.
34:44There are literally hundreds
34:45of management things,
34:47but the most important one of all
34:48is the seasonality
34:49of our fishery.
34:50At the end of the day,
34:51though,
34:52isn't it as simple as
34:52there is only so much
34:54to go around
34:55and you and your members
34:56simply just don't want to share?
34:58You don't want to give up
34:58your share of the pie?
35:00Certainly there's
35:01enough lobsters
35:02to sustain all the communities
35:04that need to rely on it.
35:06I think those narratives
35:06have been put forward
35:08by certain Indigenous leaders
35:09because it's politically
35:10advantageous to them.
35:1613 people have held the position
35:18of fisheries minister
35:19since the Marshall decision.
35:21The current minister,
35:22Joanne Thompson,
35:23sent us this statement.
35:24Let me be very clear.
35:26Fishing without a license
35:28is illegal.
35:29She also says that
35:30since the Marshall decision,
35:32the government of Canada
35:33has invested over $1 billion
35:35to implement the right
35:37through communal,
35:38commercial fishing licenses.
35:40That didn't completely
35:41answer our questions.
35:44So we came to Ottawa
35:45to ask the minister directly
35:47if she will resolve
35:48a quarter century
35:49of uncertainty.
35:51Hi, Minister.
35:52We're the Fifth Estate.
35:53Just wondering,
35:54will you commit to solving
35:56the moderate livelihood question
35:57one for four all?
35:59Minister,
36:00what do you think about DFO?
36:01Do you feel like
36:01they're criminalizing
36:02First Nations fishers
36:03by enforcing the law
36:04the way they are?
36:07The minister didn't give us
36:08much of her time,
36:09but look who did
36:11get a meeting with her.
36:12Check out this photo
36:13from June.
36:15Some familiar faces.
36:16Bernie Berry,
36:18Dan Fleck,
36:19and Colin Sproul.
36:23Coming up.
36:24Sometimes they're getting
36:25their boat seized.
36:26Sometimes they're getting
36:26their car seized.
36:27Mi'kmaq fishers forced
36:29to take their fight
36:30back to court.
36:31We've been criminalized,
36:33harassed,
36:33all the way
36:34through this system
36:35that's designed
36:36to be racist towards us.
36:47October 1st.
36:50In Nova Scotia,
36:52this is Treaty Day.
36:53A chance to recognize
36:55the peace and friendship
36:56struck by the Mi'kmaq
36:57and the Crown.
36:59We are all
37:00treaty people.
37:03But also a reminder
37:05of the work remaining.
37:0926 years since
37:11the landmark position.
37:13We still need to work on
37:15trying to get our rights
37:17recognized.
37:20The event had plenty
37:22of dignitaries,
37:23but few provincial
37:24or federal politicians
37:26showed up.
37:30It's an annual event,
37:32and every year,
37:33questions hang over
37:34the celebration.
37:35Will anything change?
37:37And is Canada listening?
37:40It is just people
37:41have the right
37:41to self-determination.
37:43We have the right
37:44to govern and manage
37:46our own fishery.
37:47As long as that principle
37:49is ignored,
37:50we'll never have peace
37:52in the water.
37:54Matt Cope often
37:56finds himself forced
37:57to shed his fishing gear
37:58and put on a suit.
38:01I don't even think
38:02I can count
38:02how many of these
38:03I've been through.
38:07He's faced a number
38:08of lobster fishery
38:09charges since 2020
38:10and hopes his case
38:12will be among the last.
38:15Fundamentally,
38:15when DFO says
38:16you're breaking the law,
38:17do you see yourself
38:18as breaking the law?
38:19Absolutely not.
38:20The very law
38:21that they're claiming
38:23that I'm breaking
38:24is unconstitutional.
38:29I am the owner-editor
38:30of Gugu Guest News
38:32in independent Indigenous news
38:34in Atlantic Canada.
38:37Journalist Maureen Gugu
38:38is closely following
38:39how the fisheries fight
38:41has moved from the water
38:42to the courts.
38:44It takes up
38:45a lot of my time.
38:46There's at least
38:47about two, three cases
38:48each week.
38:50I started getting
38:51calls from fishermen
38:52and they were saying
38:53that they were trying
38:54to do their treaty fishery
38:56in the summer
38:57and they were getting
38:59their gear seized,
39:00not recognizing
39:01their moderate livelihood
39:02treaty rate.
39:04DFO was still
39:05enforcing the Fisheries Act
39:08and charging them
39:10with illegal fishing.
39:12So I just started tracking
39:14the court cases,
39:15getting the court information.
39:16I was really shocked
39:18to learn that there were
39:19over 50 Indigenous fishers
39:21who were charged.
39:25It is so disheartening.
39:28You would think
39:30that after Marshall
39:33that there would be
39:34no more court cases.
39:36But it seems
39:37that the government
39:38is so anxious
39:39to re-litigate the case
39:41that they want to get
39:42a different decision,
39:43that they'll continue
39:44to charge and charge
39:46and charge and recharge.
39:47Why not the federal government
39:49just sit down
39:50with the First Nation leaders
39:52and hammer out
39:53what a treaty fishery
39:56looks like?
40:00It's not a Mi'kmaq
40:01treaty fishery,
40:02it's a DFO commercial fishery.
40:03So until the day comes
40:05when it becomes truly
40:06a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery,
40:08then we would have arrived
40:10to where we should be.
40:12Dan Christmas saw a way forward
40:13without going to the courts.
40:15After he was made a senator,
40:18the first Mi'kmaq
40:18in the upper chamber,
40:19he led a Senate report
40:21recommending Fisheries
40:22and Oceans Canada
40:23fully recognize treaty fishing.
40:26Let Mi'kmaq create
40:27their own system,
40:28separate from
40:29the commercial structure.
40:30I can't tell you
40:31how disappointed I was
40:33when DFO just summarily
40:37dismissed their recommendations
40:39as nothing.
40:41Over the generation
40:42they've been at this,
40:43for Dan Christmas,
40:44we would like to have
40:45the problems
40:46and also Governor
40:47of Canada to recognize
40:48that these ways of living
40:50still are extended
40:51in our community
40:52and that they're still
40:53an important means
40:54for some of our families
40:55to get by each year.
40:56And Bernie Berry.
40:58There is individuals saying
41:00that, you know,
41:01let's go fishing next week.
41:02Others are saying
41:02leave your plots in the water
41:03after the season type thing.
41:05There is,
41:06certainly is frustration.
41:07It always comes back
41:08to family and livelihood.
41:11Cross your fingers,
41:12cross your toes
41:12and hope for the best.
41:13But a lot of instinct
41:14and experience
41:15go into it, doesn't it?
41:16If you go fishing
41:16for 30 or 40 or 50 years,
41:19Mother Nature usually wins
41:22on a bigger percentage
41:23of the time
41:23and you're just playing catch up.
41:25He hopes their strong ties
41:27to the past
41:28are respected
41:29when the future
41:30of the fishery is set.
41:32The industry should have
41:33a lot more input
41:34as opposed to somebody
41:35like you said,
41:36sitting in an office
41:37in Ottawa
41:37and just thinking
41:39how it should look.
41:43A really good friend of mine
41:45made this for me.
41:47I wear it at special stuff
41:49like events.
41:50Sometimes I wear it
41:51to court and stuff.
41:54Especially with the ones
41:55where we're arguing the treaty.
41:57It's got the lobster on there
41:59and commemorating
42:01the 1752 treaty.
42:05Matt Cope draws strength
42:07from the treaties
42:07because for him,
42:09they're more than history.
42:11They're personal.
42:14But right there,
42:15that's our family tree
42:18with Jean Baptiste Cope.
42:22He would be my
42:24great-great-grandfather.
42:25He's one of the
42:27most recognized signatories
42:30of the 1752 treaty
42:32that give us the right
42:33to hunt and fish.
42:36For now,
42:37he's going to keep
42:37setting off,
42:39resolved not
42:39to be trapped
42:40on the water.
42:41I'm already almost
42:4240 years old.
42:43So I want my children
42:45to be able to exercise
42:46their rights.
42:47I want them to be able
42:49to work hard and fish
42:50and be able to make
42:51a living out of it.
42:53I have the right to fish.
42:55I have the right
42:55to sell that fish.
42:57It's protected
42:57under the Constitution
42:58and I'm going to fight
42:59that until the end.
43:09On this season
43:10of The Fifth Estate,
43:11that's all that stuff.
43:14You're watching
43:15the movement of funds
43:16and you're looking
43:17for points where
43:18there's a mistake made.
43:19And there's almost
43:20always a mistake made.
43:21He went on to like
43:22be a very evil genius
43:24in that way.
43:26Where are all these drugs
43:27coming from?
43:28I would love to answer that,
43:29but I can't.
43:30Because?
43:31Because I know
43:32where they're coming from.
43:34We need to talk
43:35to the police.
43:35We need to talk
43:36to the resort.
43:37Like, you know,
43:37we don't know where he is.
43:39Do you come here often?
43:40I do.
43:41I sleep in here
43:43quite often.
43:44You sleep in his bed.
43:45I do.
43:46Yeah.
43:47When a mother breaks down
43:49on the phone with you
43:50and cries
43:51because her son is missing,
43:52it's not easy.
43:55You may have an idea
43:56of where these guys could be.
43:58Yep, for sure.
44:00Places burning down,
44:02windows getting smashed in,
44:03houses being shot up.
44:04There's nothing to do
44:05with conservation.
44:06It's just,
44:06it's total greed.
44:07Oh my gosh, hi.
44:09You won't leave.
44:10No.
44:11No, no, no.
44:12Do you hope that people
44:13can overcome the stigma?
44:15I'd be dead by now
44:16if I didn't think so.
44:17I said,
44:18just give me my son back.
44:19The only person
44:20that needs to be at risk
44:21here is me.
44:22We've been trying
44:22to reach you now
44:23for several weeks.
44:25I think he's hung up.
44:27I'm Stephen D'Souza.
44:28I'm Yohana Rumeliotis.
44:29I'm Mark Kelly.
44:31This.
44:31This.
44:32This is The Fifth Estate.
45:04The Fifth Estate.
45:04The Fifth Estate.
45:06The Fifth Estate.
45:06The Fifth Estate.
45:08The Fifth Estate.
45:08The Fifth Estate.
45:09The Fifth Estate.
45:10The Fifth Estate.
45:10The Fifth Estate.
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