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00:00:16Hey there everybody I hope you're all well and I hope you enjoy what happens here over the next
00:00:20hour or so. To find out who our first guest is let me hand you over to the MC for
00:00:26the evening
00:00:26the very beautiful Fred Cook. Thank you Tommy. Our first guest is Mr Ray Goggins.
00:00:41Tommy, how are you? Pleasure. You're going, who's this fella? No I think I was watching it the other night.
00:00:48Were you? You shouted people in the fog. Oh I did yeah. I'm so now though I've changed, I've changed.
00:00:56I've changed. And I built up a prejudice against you. Did you? Yeah. Good I'll try and reverse
00:01:04over that so for the next bit of time we'll see how we get on. Yeah we'll come back to
00:01:09that because
00:01:12so how did you end up doing that show? Okay so yeah I spent most my career in the army
00:01:19so 26 years doing that and a lot of that in special operations. The Army Ranger Wing used to be
00:01:27called,
00:01:27now it's called Irish Special Ops so I was a combat diver, command all that kind of stuff.
00:01:35Did you get used? We did yeah we got used. What way now? As in doing your job or being
00:01:41shafted by the
00:01:42government or whoever else. Well you know what actually if someone says to me oh we're special
00:01:46ops and we're in the American army we're going to go all right you'll be up to stuff but. Yeah
00:01:49but
00:01:50you could be. No I get it like we're not we're not a like a war fighting invasion army.
00:01:54Bwakis Lajia. Bwakis Lajia and we don't want to be either. Yeah. But like a lot of you know hostage
00:01:59rescue stuff you know interdiction stuff stuff in places like you know Africa,
00:02:04Middle East you know protection work. Yeah. You know it's it's it's quite varied.
00:02:09Why did you join the army? I love the army. My father was a soldier. He was a Congo veteran.
00:02:15My older brother was in the army but I grew up in a house in Cork the north side in
00:02:21a corporation
00:02:22house. Eight of us kids and my parents and like as long as I can remember I wanted to be
00:02:27a soldier
00:02:27and strangely enough never because my father used to talk about it because he was retired by the time
00:02:32I came along really like you know I barely knew he was in the army there's just something in me
00:02:37that I
00:02:37wanted to do it. Like I always wanted to be a soldier and that's what I was for all my
00:02:42career.
00:02:43Something like fulfilled me about being a soldier and I'm older now. I'm in my mid 50s now
00:02:49and I always thought it was you know that the Sharpen being a ranger and all this kind of stuff
00:02:53and
00:02:53jumping out of planes and eating snakes and blowing shit up. It's actually none of that.
00:02:57Like for me the fulfilment was minding people.
00:03:02Were you attracted to the structure?
00:03:04I loved structure. Like I was 18 when I joined the army in Cork right and like I love like
00:03:09the armed forces in any country and Ireland are the best for building a team. Why? Because they make you
00:03:16accountable from the start.
00:03:18They have a system called the buddy system. So you and me are buddies and if I'm good at something
00:03:23you better be good at it too or I'll get punished like you and vice versa.
00:03:27So it gives you a fantastic sense of others around you. So when you're making the decision or doing something,
00:03:33okay how's that going to affect my body? How's that going to affect the team?
00:03:36So it gives you almost a selfless and a kind of an ego pairing idea of life which is incredible
00:03:43you know.
00:03:44And like when you build that team of people and you connect that people, that's what gets you through those
00:03:49hard maybe combat environments.
00:03:50So it's a mental training as much as a physical?
00:03:52Oh completely. It's 90% mindset. Like the physical stuff and the skill stuff you can learn. It's mindset. Like
00:04:00mindset is the most important aspect of any high intensity environment whether it's sport, military, in your world.
00:04:06But you know, what you do when you stand out on the stage or you do a show or whatever,
00:04:10you have to be, no you don't have to necessarily prepare but your mindset has to be ready.
00:04:14Like if your mindset isn't good, you don't go well. Because I know my mindset isn't good. The arse falls
00:04:19over for me like, you know, because you win or lose in your head before you even start.
00:04:24That's kind of, you know, our ethos and being trained to do that.
00:04:30Is there a massive fear of failure?
00:04:33No.
00:04:36Because you fail so much, it becomes acceptable. So to get into special ops, in my day, you go on
00:04:44what's called selection.
00:04:45So selection is them knocking the bollocks out of you for a year basically, right? And you fail so much
00:04:50and you get so used to...
00:04:52And this is special ops Irish army?
00:04:55Irish army, yeah. I think the selection course process now is slightly different now but the last time I spoke
00:05:02to people about it, it takes like 11 months.
00:05:05And like that TV show we talked about, you said you saw me doing, that's a week we bring people
00:05:09on and we assimilate that training but the real course is the best part of a year.
00:05:13Where you're, it's your mindset, your belief, your sense of purpose is what they're training. All the physicality and the
00:05:20cold and the pain is to get you to that place where it's your mindset gets you through stuff.
00:05:25Are you, in a sense, declaring war on yourself?
00:05:28You are, you're going through like a mill to get to somewhere else where, and I'm not saying it makes
00:05:34you infallible, you know what I mean? You don't become perfect, you still make balls and stuff, like it's fine
00:05:38but, you know, your sense of like who you are and what you can do, your sense of trust in
00:05:42yourself and the people you work with becomes all important.
00:05:46It just sounds a bit macho or something.
00:05:48No, don't get me wrong, there is a certain amount of chess beating in it but the most important quality
00:05:53and value in those teams, right, is vulnerability.
00:05:57Like, you go there as an individual with these other 100 guys and like 10 of you will get through
00:06:02it.
00:06:03So why do you get through it?
00:06:04Is it that hard?
00:06:04Yeah, why do you get through it?
00:06:06You get through it because you link with those people.
00:06:08Because you hate yourself.
00:06:08You don't, no, you do, yeah, yeah, I think I'm a, it's like, yeah, it is, yeah, it's like going
00:06:14to Loch Derg on a retreat, like I did it twice, I failed the first time because they're looking for
00:06:18somebody who can, like, not be the best at everything but be absolutely excellent at doing simple things all the
00:06:25time, even when you're absolutely exhausted, even when you're absolutely done, when you don't want to play, when you have
00:06:30a pain in your hole, you still can do that.
00:06:33Do you have to be a bit of a kind of a psychopath to pass?
00:06:35Oh, fucking absolutely, completely, like the madness.
00:06:38The madness is embraced in it, like we live in a world now where we try and, we try and
00:06:42sanitise our human madness, but you need to embrace it sometimes, like sometimes that gets you over the line, that
00:06:48absolute, like, you know, connection to yourself and other people, like it's like a strength, you know?
00:06:54Are you a very goal-focused person?
00:06:57No, I'm not.
00:06:59I am kind of a person that if I choose to do something, I'll keep going until it gets done.
00:07:06Yeah, that's a goal-focused person.
00:07:07I, you make it sound like, I don't necessarily agree, right, because it's a doggedness.
00:07:14Do you need goals?
00:07:16No, I don't need goals.
00:07:17I fucking sit a hole and scratch my hole with the best of them.
00:07:19Like, I actually love enjoying, relaxing.
00:07:22I don't have to be, I'm not a hyper person that I have to be doing stuff all the time.
00:07:26I can sit back and let people off and I'll follow them happily, like, you know, at times I'm happy
00:07:32enough, but if they're making the balls of it then I might jump in, you know yourself.
00:07:34Have you been in therapy?
00:07:36Not in depth.
00:07:39Not in depth.
00:07:39We used to have army therapists, we used to call them the care bears when they'd come in and they'd
00:07:43give you a little cuddle and tell you everything's all right.
00:07:45And they were great.
00:07:46Even the way you demean it.
00:07:47I'm only messing, I'm only, no, I have, I've done, I have been in therapy, I have, because, like, I
00:07:52have, not that I have massive issues, but, like, it's the life I chose and, like, there was a lot
00:07:57of, like, if you're dealing with a chaotic environment, like, you know, the aftermath of a truck bomb in Afghanistan
00:08:03or, you know, whatever, like, shootouts and wherever you are, like, you can get through it because you're trained to
00:08:09get through it and you get to the end of it and then that's where that comes at you, after
00:08:14the fact.
00:08:14It's never during it because your training takes over.
00:08:17Of course, yeah, yeah.
00:08:17It comes in, it comes in, it comes in, but, like, yeah, I had a few chats with, like, different
00:08:21kind of psychologists, so, you know, like, bits and pieces.
00:08:24Do you feel, as you were talking there twice now, I've had this image of people coming back from war,
00:08:33like, we say the Afghanistan thing and a bomb in a truck.
00:08:40Of what it must be like to, you know, as you say, you're trained to deal with that situation when
00:08:47it happens.
00:08:48But then what it must be like arriving back in Dublin airport, maybe two or three weeks later and you
00:08:56have, you're back in a culture that is not acknowledging your experience.
00:09:08And that would seem like a tough place.
00:09:09You know, these people coming back from war in America.
00:09:12Yeah, like, and you mentioned, when we started talking in the first place, you started talking with the Americans and
00:09:15everybody else.
00:09:16People don't see the Irish military like that.
00:09:18They see us as, like, Dad's Army or something or whatever.
00:09:21I don't know, like, and I, as a younger soldier, that used to fucking piss me off at no end,
00:09:26like, because, you know, I'd done four tours in Lebanon
00:09:28where fellows have been killed there, like, saving lives and people are saying, ah, sure, it's only the Lebanon.
00:09:33You go out there to get, like, gold and the suntan, you know what I mean?
00:09:39Do you have a lot of anger?
00:09:41I don't. I'm actually quite a calm person.
00:09:43I have a very kind of unique way, not unique, I like to train, I like to be physically active.
00:09:49My most important thing that I try and maintain is peace, like, my head, calm composure.
00:09:54No, I don't always do it, like, you know, second half of the hour in the final being a Corkman,
00:09:58sitting in the stand there, that wasn't, you know, I wasn't enjoying that.
00:10:02But, like, I don't have a lot of anger, because I try and work it out of me.
00:10:07Like, when I don't do it, then I will, you know what I mean?
00:10:10So you do have a lot of anger?
00:10:11I don't, I just, I don't allow it to build.
00:10:12You do, but you have a lot of anger, but you deal with it.
00:10:14I have no more anger than most people, like.
00:10:17Ah.
00:10:18Like, I don't. I don't. Like, I'm actually a very, as I discovered, like, I'm a very kind of people
00:10:25-orientated person.
00:10:26Like, I enjoy people. I enjoy different cultures, I enjoy different people, you know what I mean?
00:10:31Er, are you ever not in control?
00:10:34Of?
00:10:35Me?
00:10:36Anything.
00:10:37Oh, fucking loads of times, are you joking me? Yeah, lots of times.
00:10:41It doesn't, I don't mind not being in control.
00:10:43Because, like, what can you actually control at the end of the day?
00:10:48Well, I, if...
00:10:49You can't control anything. Think about it.
00:10:50Can you control the situation?
00:10:52You can't.
00:10:53Can you control people?
00:10:54You can't.
00:10:55What can you actually control?
00:10:58Are you leading me down a road where I'm going to say yourself?
00:11:01Of course. That's all you can do.
00:11:02Your actions, your attitude, your work rate, what you do.
00:11:07I had a conversation with a...
00:11:08Can you control yourself, though, Ray?
00:11:09Within reason. You can, to a certain extent.
00:11:11I'm not sure you can.
00:11:12You can a lot.
00:11:14I'm not saying it's infallible and you can completely.
00:11:17Like, you get a line or sometimes you don't.
00:11:19But I find when I remain in a disciplined environment in myself
00:11:23and I follow my structures and my habits, my routines,
00:11:25I can stay in more control.
00:11:28What would happen if you didn't have those things?
00:11:30Oh, probably not much.
00:11:32I might just...
00:11:32It's not like...
00:11:33I'm not going to be up on a rooftop with a sniper rifle
00:11:36fucking shooting postmen or anything like that.
00:11:37Do you know what I mean?
00:11:38That's not how it works.
00:11:40I'd go in with a Harley instead.
00:11:41Yeah, no, but the image came fairly quick to you there.
00:11:43Yeah, I could tell you were thinking.
00:11:44You were sending it to me, Tommy.
00:11:46You were sending it.
00:11:48Did you have a sense of...
00:11:50Or do you have a sense of living a slightly more diluted life
00:11:57working with television companies and...
00:12:01Yeah, so, like, my day-to-day job now is I have a training company
00:12:04and I work with teams and people
00:12:06and I've worked in prisons
00:12:08and I've worked with school kids about stress
00:12:10and dealing with, like, anxiety
00:12:12and when something makes you afraid
00:12:14how you can still do your best, like, whatever that is for you.
00:12:19So, like, you know, and I learned that over years.
00:12:22No, I haven't all the answers,
00:12:23but, like, I might have the next one
00:12:24if you're not sure about something
00:12:26that I've learned
00:12:27and I don't force it on people.
00:12:28It sounds very performance-based.
00:12:29No, it's not performance-based at all.
00:12:31It's you understanding how things affect you,
00:12:34like, particularly your emotions
00:12:35because, like, you might think when I came on
00:12:37I'm some sort of fucking robot.
00:12:39Do you know what I mean?
00:12:39A T-800 or whatever.
00:12:41But, like, your emotions are really important
00:12:43and you understand how they affect you, you know?
00:12:46Like, because you can't stop them.
00:12:48You know, they'll come along
00:12:49whether it's anger, fear, whatever it is,
00:12:51you know, like, stress.
00:12:53They'll all come.
00:12:54But you understand what it tastes like
00:12:56when you have them means, okay,
00:12:58this is what it felt like the last time.
00:13:00I can still do this
00:13:01and not letting those emotions decide what you do
00:13:04or completely push you in a direction
00:13:06where you, we talked about control,
00:13:08where you have no control over yourself.
00:13:10So how do you create that distance
00:13:12between the felt emotion and the reaction?
00:13:15Okay, I would say a response
00:13:17because reaction is very, you know, knee-jerk.
00:13:19Okay.
00:13:20Like, there's a moment you can win
00:13:21when you have that stress coming at you.
00:13:23Oh, fuck.
00:13:23Like, the thing happening isn't a stress.
00:13:25It's what you do
00:13:26or how you see it,
00:13:27how you view it
00:13:28is the stress.
00:13:30So no matter how bad it can be,
00:13:32like, you can win that moment,
00:13:33that two, three seconds you have
00:13:35to decide what you're going to do
00:13:36or how you're going to deal with it.
00:13:37It's the fight or flight.
00:13:38By willpower?
00:13:39No, not willpower at all.
00:13:40It's by calming yourself,
00:13:42like, breeding techniques,
00:13:44understanding yourself,
00:13:45what your assets are,
00:13:46who you are,
00:13:47why you're doing it,
00:13:48your purpose,
00:13:49how much you trust yourself.
00:13:50There's so much involved
00:13:51in that two seconds of thought,
00:13:53you know,
00:13:53and that's why I talk about training
00:13:54all the time.
00:13:55And the only way
00:13:56I manage calm
00:13:57and composure,
00:13:58for me,
00:13:58no, not all the time,
00:13:59it doesn't always work,
00:14:00is simple breeding techniques.
00:14:02A really simple breeding technique
00:14:03where you're almost
00:14:04tricking your body
00:14:05into thinking
00:14:06that it's going to relax soon,
00:14:08it's going to either be eating,
00:14:09it's going to either
00:14:10be having a rest.
00:14:11So you change
00:14:12your breeding techniques
00:14:13so you're breeding
00:14:14through your nose,
00:14:14no, through your mouth.
00:14:15I'm sure you've done
00:14:16stuff like that.
00:14:16Everyone does know
00:14:17there's breeding techniques online,
00:14:18there's all these
00:14:19different things you can do.
00:14:20But we used to call it
00:14:20tactical breeding
00:14:21in the military.
00:14:22And I'll give you
00:14:22a practical example.
00:14:23I'm not just, like,
00:14:24talking bullshit here.
00:14:25Like, I saw and did that
00:14:27in my career
00:14:28in the military.
00:14:29Sometimes it worked,
00:14:29sometimes it didn't.
00:14:31But for me,
00:14:32where it worked the most
00:14:33was, I mentioned Afghanistan.
00:14:35I got blown up
00:14:36in Afghanistan
00:14:36by a truck bomb once.
00:14:39I was in a building
00:14:39and I was protecting
00:14:40a lot of people,
00:14:41120 people.
00:14:42So I had a 20-guy team
00:14:44and we had 120, you know,
00:14:47telephone operators,
00:14:48salespeople, engineers
00:14:49living with us.
00:14:50So the Taliban,
00:14:51what they do is
00:14:52they'll drive a vehicle
00:14:53up to your compound,
00:14:55they'll detonate
00:14:56a suicide bomber
00:14:57in a vehicle,
00:14:57they'll blow in the wall,
00:14:58then they'll send
00:14:59in suicide bombers
00:15:00and they'll kill everybody.
00:15:01So it was a truck bomb
00:15:03of a tonne and a half
00:15:04of TNT
00:15:04with a nice bang off it.
00:15:06I got blown in
00:15:07through the door
00:15:07of my room.
00:15:08Like, it was evening time,
00:15:10seven o'clock
00:15:10in a winter's evening,
00:15:11minus seven.
00:15:12Getting ready
00:15:13to go for dinner,
00:15:14just locking my door,
00:15:15bang.
00:15:16Blowing into the room,
00:15:17lying in there
00:15:18in the dark
00:15:18in the cold, right?
00:15:19And I talked about
00:15:20training earlier.
00:15:21So after initial check
00:15:22and my brain been
00:15:23kind of wobbly
00:15:24for a minute,
00:15:25I just kind of refocused
00:15:26and all the stuff
00:15:28I'd been doing
00:15:28for the 20 or 30 years
00:15:29before started kicking in.
00:15:31So I got all my equipment
00:15:32ready,
00:15:33all the simple techniques
00:15:34I do to keep myself composed
00:15:35and doing the breathing
00:15:36technique the whole time
00:15:37and getting my gear on,
00:15:38my body armor
00:15:40and every fiber
00:15:41in my body
00:15:41wants me to stay
00:15:42in that room
00:15:43and hide under the bed.
00:15:45But I have 120 people
00:15:46all over that compound
00:15:48that I have to go out
00:15:49and mine them.
00:15:50So that's my job.
00:15:51So my breathing technique then,
00:15:53my purpose,
00:15:54my trust in myself,
00:15:55my belief,
00:15:56all the stuff
00:15:56that I trained to do
00:15:58over all the years,
00:15:59I go out
00:16:00and I do that
00:16:00for the next seven
00:16:02or eight hours.
00:16:03What thing most surprised you
00:16:05about being in war zones?
00:16:09The humanity of people,
00:16:11how beautiful people
00:16:13are in the most
00:16:15horrendous of events,
00:16:17like, you know,
00:16:17how kind people are.
00:16:20because, like,
00:16:21people with good spirit,
00:16:22like, you know,
00:16:23good people,
00:16:24stay good people,
00:16:25you know,
00:16:26even when they have nothing,
00:16:27when they have nothing left,
00:16:29like, you know,
00:16:30particularly in Afghanistan,
00:16:31again, like, you know,
00:16:32when people talk about Afghanistan,
00:16:33they talk about, like,
00:16:35bombs and death
00:16:36and the Taliban.
00:16:36Like, when I remember Afghanistan,
00:16:38I spent three years there
00:16:39or whatever it was,
00:16:40like, you know,
00:16:41I remember seeing kids,
00:16:43like, flying kites
00:16:44on the street,
00:16:45like, that's fucking obliterated,
00:16:46you know,
00:16:47playing cricket,
00:16:49like, playing ball,
00:16:50you know,
00:16:50they have wedding halls,
00:16:52these absolutely,
00:16:53like, palatial buildings
00:16:54in each kind of block,
00:16:56each kind of city block
00:16:58where they celebrate life
00:16:59and being families
00:17:00and weddings
00:17:01and get together
00:17:02in the middle of all this,
00:17:03like,
00:17:04and, like,
00:17:04these guys are at war
00:17:05for, like, 30 years.
00:17:06I mean,
00:17:06everyone's fucking fighting them,
00:17:08you know?
00:17:08Amazing.
00:17:09Like, you just,
00:17:09it just humbles it to see it
00:17:11and you go,
00:17:12Jesus, like,
00:17:12the power of people,
00:17:14the power of connection,
00:17:15the power of community,
00:17:16the power of team,
00:17:17you know?
00:17:19Um,
00:17:23what most hurt you
00:17:25emotionally in your life?
00:17:28What hurt me emotionally
00:17:29in my life?
00:17:30The most.
00:17:31Oh.
00:17:38I suppose the thing
00:17:39that hurt me the most
00:17:40emotionally in my life
00:17:41is
00:17:43I was very close
00:17:44to my parents
00:17:44and my mother,
00:17:45in particular,
00:17:46was a very strong person
00:17:49and when she passed away
00:17:51in 2013,
00:17:52years ago now,
00:17:53um,
00:17:56like,
00:17:56initially,
00:17:58it was,
00:17:59you know,
00:17:59you just go through
00:17:59the motions of this happening
00:18:00but I found for weeks
00:18:01and months
00:18:03after it
00:18:05I could feel
00:18:05the kind of pain of it
00:18:06or something,
00:18:07you know what I mean?
00:18:07It was,
00:18:08and my father had died
00:18:09a couple of years
00:18:10before that
00:18:10and I felt it to a certain
00:18:12extent with him
00:18:13but, like,
00:18:14but with her though
00:18:16and I was trying to make
00:18:17peace of the why
00:18:18and, like,
00:18:19it was because she has
00:18:19such a profound impact
00:18:20on my life,
00:18:21I suppose,
00:18:21as a person,
00:18:23you know,
00:18:23and the way she was
00:18:24and how she conducted herself.
00:18:25So, yeah,
00:18:26that's probably
00:18:26the most emotionally
00:18:29kind of burnt I've been
00:18:30but there have been
00:18:31other things,
00:18:31like,
00:18:31you know what I mean?
00:18:32Like, you know,
00:18:32splitting up with, like,
00:18:33partners and,
00:18:34like, that all hurts.
00:18:36Like, it's all painful,
00:18:37like, isn't it?
00:18:38Do you feel that there's still
00:18:39a connection between you
00:18:40and your mom?
00:18:41Oh, yeah,
00:18:42all the time.
00:18:42I feel her all the time.
00:18:43Like,
00:18:44yeah, I do.
00:18:45Like, I, you know,
00:18:47I suppose, like,
00:18:48like, again,
00:18:52you know,
00:18:53particularly with
00:18:53the maternal side of things,
00:18:55like, you know,
00:18:55you're part of that person
00:18:57for a period of time
00:18:57and everyone has
00:18:58different relationships
00:18:59with their parents,
00:19:00I get it, like,
00:19:00but I think for me
00:19:01and my mother in particular,
00:19:03like,
00:19:05yeah,
00:19:05it just felt like
00:19:06there was always
00:19:06that amazing connection
00:19:08and, like,
00:19:09I don't feel, like,
00:19:10I don't go to her grave
00:19:11or anything like that
00:19:11but I feel it from her
00:19:13when I listen to certain music,
00:19:15you know,
00:19:15when I eat certain food
00:19:17and sometimes I cook
00:19:18a particular meal
00:19:19so I can do that,
00:19:21like,
00:19:21and have a particular music
00:19:22on in the background
00:19:23and I just feel it then,
00:19:24like, I feel her.
00:19:25And you're not afraid
00:19:26of feeling that?
00:19:28No.
00:19:29I actually like it.
00:19:29It's like a comfort.
00:19:32It's a comfort.
00:19:35What do you think
00:19:35is happening in there?
00:19:38that sense of connection to,
00:19:42is it a connection
00:19:43to an emptiness?
00:19:45Ooh,
00:19:45to a connection
00:19:46to an emptiness?
00:19:47No,
00:19:48I think it's a connection
00:19:48to a familiarity,
00:19:49like,
00:19:50something that I had
00:19:50all my life with her,
00:19:52you know,
00:19:52of this person
00:19:54who had, like,
00:19:55you know,
00:19:55her own struggles
00:19:56and mother loads of kids
00:19:58and tough enough life
00:19:59and was still
00:20:00a kind of person
00:20:02who was very
00:20:04good to people,
00:20:05would do
00:20:06good for people,
00:20:07would do the right thing,
00:20:09you know,
00:20:11nearly all of the time.
00:20:12Now,
00:20:13I tried to do that
00:20:14but I didn't in my life,
00:20:15of course,
00:20:15we're all flawed.
00:20:18but I think,
00:20:18like,
00:20:19for me,
00:20:19it's a familiarity
00:20:20and it's a warmth
00:20:21almost,
00:20:22you know,
00:20:22and like,
00:20:23even when I served away,
00:20:24like,
00:20:25when I was a young guy,
00:20:26you know,
00:20:26I'd always ring her
00:20:27or no matter where I was
00:20:29in the world,
00:20:29like,
00:20:29your ma is always your ma,
00:20:31I'd always ring her somewhere
00:20:32or there'd be something
00:20:33going on,
00:20:33you know what I mean?
00:20:33So,
00:20:35like,
00:20:35she's just a very
00:20:35powerful person,
00:20:36like,
00:20:37and very kind of,
00:20:38um,
00:20:41just decent
00:20:41or good
00:20:42or something,
00:20:43you know what I mean?
00:20:43Without even trying
00:20:44and like,
00:20:45no,
00:20:45she'd cut the legs off,
00:20:46you don't get me wrong,
00:20:47do you know?
00:20:47But,
00:20:48yeah.
00:20:52Thank you so much,
00:20:53Ray,
00:20:54for being so open
00:20:55and
00:20:57chatting with me.
00:20:58Yeah,
00:20:58it's been great.
00:20:59Pleasure, Tommy.
00:21:00Great.
00:21:00No,
00:21:01absolutely,
00:21:01I really enjoyed it,
00:21:02yeah.
00:21:02Thanks,
00:21:03yeah.
00:21:04You kind of look like
00:21:04Pep Guardiola.
00:21:05Everyone tell me that.
00:21:19Welcome back
00:21:19to the second half,
00:21:20everybody.
00:21:21Who's next,
00:21:22Freddie?
00:21:22Tommy.
00:21:23Our next guest is
00:21:24Amano de Londra
00:21:25Miura.
00:21:32Hello there.
00:21:33Very nice to meet you.
00:21:35Good to meet you, sir.
00:21:36Great now.
00:21:38That's a great name.
00:21:40Thank you,
00:21:40yeah,
00:21:41it's a bit of a mouthful.
00:21:43I'm trying to,
00:21:44you're Irish.
00:21:45I am,
00:21:45yeah,
00:21:46I'm half Irish
00:21:47and half Japanese
00:21:49and I'm a singer,
00:21:50a writer.
00:21:52I'm mostly working
00:21:53with song,
00:21:55people,
00:21:56land,
00:21:57spirit,
00:21:58but perhaps
00:21:59either
00:22:00Gaeilgeogs Beirle.
00:22:03There's a weird thing,
00:22:04I might have been
00:22:05listening to you
00:22:08or reading about you
00:22:09this morning,
00:22:09that's so strange.
00:22:11Yeah,
00:22:12I'm not sure.
00:22:14These things circle that way.
00:22:16Who's,
00:22:16who's Japanese
00:22:17in your family?
00:22:18My father,
00:22:19yeah.
00:22:20And how did he end up
00:22:21over here?
00:22:21He didn't.
00:22:22Okay.
00:22:23At all,
00:22:23actually,
00:22:24really.
00:22:25And so,
00:22:26I was born in Japan
00:22:28and my parents met
00:22:29when my mother
00:22:30was teaching English there.
00:22:32Mm-hmm.
00:22:32And I'd say
00:22:34she was expecting
00:22:35to go somewhere
00:22:36like Tokyo
00:22:38or Osaka,
00:22:38you know,
00:22:39big city lights
00:22:40in Japan
00:22:40and the booming economy
00:22:41in the 80s,
00:22:42but she got stationed
00:22:43in a small village,
00:22:46a small town
00:22:46called Yamaga
00:22:47where my dad
00:22:48is from.
00:22:50And they met
00:22:51and they were together
00:22:51for a few years.
00:22:52She came back to Ireland,
00:22:53she went back over again
00:22:54and they had me eventually.
00:22:57And a couple of years
00:22:58after that,
00:22:59they parted.
00:23:02So,
00:23:02before that,
00:23:03we'd come back to Ireland,
00:23:04my mom and I,
00:23:05and moved in
00:23:06with my grandparents
00:23:06in Killarney.
00:23:07So,
00:23:08I'm a Kerry woman
00:23:09born in Kyushu,
00:23:10which was its own thing
00:23:11really in the 90s,
00:23:12to be honest with you.
00:23:14Mm-hmm.
00:23:16But yeah,
00:23:17that's my life,
00:23:18that's how I'm here.
00:23:19And I grew up
00:23:19with my grandparents,
00:23:20so,
00:23:21although I didn't have
00:23:22my dad in the picture,
00:23:24I was raised really
00:23:25by three people.
00:23:26So,
00:23:26my mom,
00:23:27my nana
00:23:27and my granddad nana,
00:23:29her parents were dubs
00:23:31and she had married.
00:23:33And how old were you
00:23:34when you came back?
00:23:35Two and a half.
00:23:36Okay.
00:23:37Mm-hmm.
00:23:37Yeah,
00:23:38two and a half.
00:23:39I'd say
00:23:40my dad
00:23:41came over
00:23:42a couple of times
00:23:44but was gone
00:23:45by the time
00:23:45I was four entirely.
00:23:48I think I ran away
00:23:49from being
00:23:51Japanese
00:23:53when I did start
00:23:54to become conscious
00:23:55that I was different
00:23:56and that came
00:23:57in different waves.
00:23:58Like,
00:23:58it came in a kid
00:24:00in a
00:24:03playground
00:24:03asking,
00:24:04why are you yellow?
00:24:05And I'm not yellow.
00:24:07No.
00:24:07But that's obviously
00:24:08a word
00:24:09that someone's learnt
00:24:10at home
00:24:10to associate
00:24:11with someone
00:24:11whose eyes
00:24:12or cheekbones
00:24:13or something
00:24:14are like mine.
00:24:14Yellow.
00:24:15And I think
00:24:16I was of the generation
00:24:17that had this added
00:24:21dachracht,
00:24:23dhulon challenge
00:24:24of also being
00:24:26given phones
00:24:27and access
00:24:28to the internet
00:24:28for the first time.
00:24:29And unfortunately,
00:24:33the exposure
00:24:34that kids my age
00:24:35say from like
00:24:3611, 12, 13 onwards
00:24:37would have
00:24:38to Asian women
00:24:38was through pornography.
00:24:39So I did start
00:24:41to be treated
00:24:41quite differently
00:24:42from there on in
00:24:43by my peers.
00:24:44And that was
00:24:44very difficult
00:24:45because I was
00:24:46really ashamed
00:24:46to talk about
00:24:47that at home.
00:24:49That's so surprising
00:24:50to hear.
00:24:53Can you talk
00:24:53about that?
00:24:54Because I don't
00:24:54understand how
00:24:56they...
00:24:57Yeah,
00:24:57could you tell me
00:24:59that story?
00:25:00Yeah.
00:25:02I suppose
00:25:03there are...
00:25:05In that
00:25:07ecosystem,
00:25:08in that marketplace
00:25:09of sex
00:25:11and pornography
00:25:12on the internet,
00:25:13people tend
00:25:14to be categorised
00:25:16into boxes
00:25:17based on their features.
00:25:19Asian babes.
00:25:19Yeah.
00:25:21That type of thing.
00:25:22And as kids,
00:25:23if that's the only
00:25:25Asian person
00:25:25you're seeing
00:25:26doing certain things
00:25:28and there's a whole
00:25:29vocabulary that goes
00:25:30with that,
00:25:30it's quite edgy
00:25:31or fun
00:25:31to throw that out
00:25:33at the Asian girl
00:25:34in town, right?
00:25:36And I wouldn't
00:25:38even know necessarily
00:25:39what some of those
00:25:40words meant.
00:25:41So, like,
00:25:42I was going home,
00:25:44then Googling,
00:25:45then realising
00:25:47that that's what
00:25:47they thought
00:25:48when they saw me.
00:25:49And I guess
00:25:50from there
00:25:52my protection mechanism
00:25:53was, okay,
00:25:54I'm going to be
00:25:54militantly Irish now.
00:25:57So,
00:25:58how old were the people
00:25:58that were
00:26:00shouting this stuff out?
00:26:01Oh, I'd say,
00:26:03like, anywhere
00:26:03from 13
00:26:05to 17, 18.
00:26:07Yeah.
00:26:10I don't have a memory
00:26:12of that happening
00:26:13when I was growing up.
00:26:14Really?
00:26:15Of fellas
00:26:15talking like that
00:26:16to girls.
00:26:17Mm.
00:26:18And it's just,
00:26:19I mean,
00:26:21the lack of respect
00:26:23of it is
00:26:25profound.
00:26:26Yeah.
00:26:28Do you like Japan?
00:26:30I've been there
00:26:31now three times.
00:26:33I do like it.
00:26:35I went
00:26:35for the first time
00:26:37when I was 22.
00:26:38So, that's a 19-year gap.
00:26:41And I met my dad
00:26:42that trip
00:26:43as well.
00:26:45I went on my own.
00:26:49And
00:26:49I don't remember
00:26:51a huge amount
00:26:51of those three weeks
00:26:52because I think
00:26:53I was
00:26:53on such a level
00:26:55of adrenaline.
00:26:57There aren't many people
00:26:58who get to meet
00:26:59a parent
00:26:59for the first time
00:27:00as an adult
00:27:01unless you've been
00:27:02adopted
00:27:02or estranged
00:27:04in some way.
00:27:05Mm.
00:27:06So,
00:27:09my first interaction
00:27:10with Japan
00:27:11was so intense
00:27:11that I had
00:27:13an ephemeral
00:27:14feeling of it
00:27:15being beautiful.
00:27:16and I had a feeling
00:27:18that
00:27:19the land
00:27:20was somehow
00:27:21familiar to me
00:27:22in my spirit.
00:27:24But other than that,
00:27:25of course,
00:27:26I didn't
00:27:27have the language
00:27:28or
00:27:29the physical language.
00:27:31There's a lot
00:27:32of physicality
00:27:33that goes
00:27:33with being Japanese.
00:27:39I'm imagining
00:27:39you're meeting
00:27:40your dad
00:27:40and I'm curious
00:27:41as to what that
00:27:42did he invite you
00:27:43over
00:27:43the first time?
00:27:45No.
00:27:46My granny,
00:27:47his mother,
00:27:48got in contact
00:27:49with me
00:27:50on the internet
00:27:52via
00:27:53another relative.
00:27:55So,
00:27:56when I was a teenager
00:27:58I started
00:27:59singing
00:27:59and I started
00:28:00making YouTube
00:28:01videos
00:28:02of my songs
00:28:03and doing covers
00:28:05and stuff like that.
00:28:06And
00:28:08they seemed
00:28:08to have found me.
00:28:10I didn't know.
00:28:11I didn't know
00:28:11for years
00:28:11that they were watching
00:28:12my videos
00:28:14or had any knowledge
00:28:15of my online presence.
00:28:16But I got a message
00:28:16on Facebook one day
00:28:17from a lady
00:28:18who said she was my cousin
00:28:19and that my granny
00:28:20had a message for me.
00:28:21So,
00:28:23that started it
00:28:24and we spoke
00:28:25for a few months
00:28:26and it was
00:28:26really emotional.
00:28:27Like,
00:28:27to know that
00:28:28someone on the other side
00:28:29the world's been praying
00:28:30for you every day
00:28:31of your life.
00:28:31Was there
00:28:32a gap in your life
00:28:35that she
00:28:36was filling?
00:28:38Because you talk
00:28:39about living
00:28:40with your grandparents
00:28:41in Clarny.
00:28:43Was there a kind of...
00:28:45So,
00:28:45then finding out
00:28:45that this woman
00:28:46has been thinking
00:28:47about you.
00:28:47Did you need it?
00:28:50I think it gave me
00:28:55permission
00:28:56to
00:28:59explore
00:28:59what it might feel
00:29:00like to also say
00:29:01I'm Japanese.
00:29:07Because before that
00:29:10when someone would ask me
00:29:11where I'm from
00:29:13I would say
00:29:14I'm Irish
00:29:15in such a strong way
00:29:17that I'd almost be
00:29:18telling them
00:29:19that I don't want
00:29:20this conversation
00:29:20to go any further.
00:29:21Because there's always
00:29:22a follow-up question.
00:29:23Where are you really from?
00:29:25You don't look Irish.
00:29:29I also think
00:29:32the absence of
00:29:35the source of my
00:29:36Japanese-ness
00:29:37in my life
00:29:38yes,
00:29:38it definitely created
00:29:39a void.
00:29:40But that's almost
00:29:41the well of my work now.
00:29:43Okay.
00:29:44And that has given me
00:29:46an empathy
00:29:47especially in things
00:29:48like language
00:29:49or feeling a little bit
00:29:50adrift culturally
00:29:51in Ireland
00:29:52that a lot of people
00:29:52struggle with.
00:29:53That's given me
00:29:54empathy
00:29:56like this deep well
00:29:57that allows me
00:29:59to talk to people
00:30:00and for example
00:30:01inspire them
00:30:02to move past
00:30:04whatever shame
00:30:05or rejection
00:30:06they're feeling
00:30:06within the Irish language.
00:30:08How do you do that?
00:30:10At the moment
00:30:11I'm doing it
00:30:12through songs
00:30:12mostly.
00:30:14So
00:30:15I teach
00:30:16online
00:30:18courses
00:30:19to adults
00:30:19four weeks
00:30:20they come
00:30:21and they learn
00:30:22songs in Irish
00:30:23but they don't
00:30:23just do that
00:30:24they talk about
00:30:25why they've gotten here
00:30:26to this
00:30:27online class
00:30:28with me.
00:30:29Do you get
00:30:32people doing
00:30:33double takes?
00:30:34Yes.
00:30:35Of you?
00:30:35Yeah.
00:30:37It can be
00:30:38a bit isolating
00:30:39like
00:30:40I sing
00:30:40Shannos
00:30:41mostly
00:30:44and
00:30:45I sing
00:30:46pop music
00:30:47as well
00:30:47like
00:30:48fusion
00:30:49hip-hop
00:30:49all that
00:30:50but Shannos
00:30:50is kind of
00:30:51my musical
00:30:54route
00:30:54I love it
00:30:56and
00:30:59I'm always
00:31:00the only person
00:31:01in the room
00:31:02who is
00:31:03ethnically
00:31:04non-Caucasian
00:31:05let's say
00:31:07the
00:31:08Gaelge
00:31:09in my
00:31:09family
00:31:11I lived
00:31:11quite literally
00:31:12with
00:31:13the missing
00:31:14link
00:31:14like
00:31:15my granddad
00:31:16Pat
00:31:17who was at
00:31:17home with us
00:31:19was
00:31:19a neater
00:31:20speaker
00:31:20from Jingle
00:31:22but by the time
00:31:23he was an elderly
00:31:24man he
00:31:25didn't speak at all
00:31:26and he had very
00:31:26negative associations
00:31:27with the language
00:31:29his kids
00:31:30my mum
00:31:31and her siblings
00:31:31of course
00:31:32did it at school
00:31:33and had
00:31:34a decent
00:31:35level
00:31:36but never
00:31:36kept it up
00:31:37but I think
00:31:38I had a great
00:31:40there was
00:31:40people were
00:31:41really receptive
00:31:43with support
00:31:44from the Irish
00:31:45Council
00:31:45I spent a year
00:31:46I did five
00:31:47masterclasses
00:31:47across different
00:31:48regions
00:31:48and people
00:31:50were very
00:31:50grateful
00:31:51that I was
00:31:51going to
00:31:52all the effort
00:31:53of travelling
00:31:54and meeting
00:31:54people
00:31:55and trying
00:31:55to get down
00:31:56into the
00:31:56roots of
00:31:57something
00:31:57that has
00:31:58been
00:31:59so precious
00:32:00and vulnerable
00:32:01for a long
00:32:01time
00:32:01it might feel
00:32:03like it's
00:32:03exploding now
00:32:04and there's
00:32:04so much
00:32:04interest
00:32:05and resurgence
00:32:06but it wasn't
00:32:07always like this
00:32:08and things
00:32:09have been lost
00:32:11songs have been
00:32:12lost
00:32:13there are far
00:32:14more lyrics
00:32:16surviving than
00:32:17there are melodies
00:32:20there are many
00:32:21melodies that we
00:32:21don't know
00:32:22and
00:32:23would you be
00:32:24tempted to put
00:32:25melodies on them
00:32:26people are
00:32:27there are great
00:32:28people doing that
00:32:28like Zoe Conway
00:32:29and people have
00:32:31done fantastic
00:32:32work
00:32:33setting poetry
00:32:34to
00:32:35setting poetry
00:32:36to music again
00:32:37and yeah of course
00:32:38they would be
00:32:38of course they
00:32:39would be
00:32:40I want to write
00:32:40new songs as well
00:32:41you know
00:32:42I
00:32:44we have new
00:32:44stories to tell
00:32:45we have entirely
00:32:46new cultural
00:32:47contexts
00:32:48to preserve
00:32:49and enliven
00:32:49wouldn't that be a
00:32:50thing
00:32:50yeah
00:32:51wouldn't it
00:32:51brand new
00:32:52Shannos
00:32:53it's happening
00:32:54people are doing
00:32:54it every year
00:32:55you know
00:32:56at the Oireachtas
00:32:57and that
00:32:57there's a
00:32:58there's a
00:32:59competition
00:32:59for newly
00:33:00composed songs
00:33:01in the kind
00:33:01of old style
00:33:03could you sing
00:33:04something for me
00:33:05and maybe explain
00:33:07explain a bit
00:33:08about it as well
00:33:09can't
00:33:11yeah
00:33:19so
00:33:20I'll give you
00:33:20a few verses
00:33:21of
00:33:21a blessing
00:33:24from the king
00:33:24of friday
00:33:24so from the lord
00:33:25himself
00:33:26it's a song
00:33:27from the
00:33:27blaskets
00:33:29and this one
00:33:31is an immigration
00:33:33song but not in
00:33:34like a deep heavy
00:33:34way it's just like
00:33:35I'm going
00:33:38and there's
00:33:39there's a hint
00:33:40of that there might
00:33:41have even been a
00:33:41breakup
00:33:42you know the kind
00:33:43of everyday reasons
00:33:44that someone might
00:33:45have to leave
00:33:47and of course
00:33:47the tragedy
00:33:48of saying goodbye
00:33:50but I like it
00:33:51particularly because
00:33:52I think in this
00:33:53moment
00:33:54things like
00:33:55migration
00:33:55and immigration
00:33:55are such hot
00:33:56and heated
00:33:57topics
00:33:59and sometimes
00:34:00we want to
00:34:01over
00:34:04rationalise them
00:34:04or everyone
00:34:05has to have a
00:34:05massive story
00:34:06to go with it
00:34:07but like in this
00:34:09song
00:34:09there's always
00:34:10just been people
00:34:11who've left
00:34:11and wandered
00:34:12and gone
00:34:13for various reasons
00:34:15from every culture
00:34:16and that's kind of
00:34:17how you end up
00:34:18with people
00:34:19who look like me
00:34:19or
00:34:21yeah have an
00:34:22extra flavour
00:34:23added to the world
00:34:25so
00:34:26yeah
00:34:27or ginger-haired
00:34:28freckledy people
00:34:29in Osaka
00:34:30exactly
00:34:31I haven't met them yet
00:34:33but sure
00:34:33I'm sure they're there
00:34:41right
00:34:43I mean
00:34:48my
00:34:49by
00:34:50see
00:34:53lovely
00:34:54in a
00:34:55run
00:34:55my
00:34:56you
00:34:58my
00:34:59sound
00:35:00feel
00:35:01honey
00:35:02green
00:35:03go
00:35:04be
00:35:05bogus
00:35:06low
00:35:10governor
00:35:11the
00:35:13the
00:35:13I
00:35:14don't
00:35:15know
00:35:15not
00:35:16the
00:35:16the
00:35:17the
00:35:17the
00:35:17the
00:35:20the
00:35:21Oh
00:36:01Ah, the lovely little run at the end where it's almost like, thank you very much now, good luck.
00:36:09Coming back into speech, like coming back into here, you'd also have the wine doll.
00:36:18And for me, my energetic interpretation of that today is like it's a grounding rod in the room, it's someone
00:36:24keeping you here in case you end up off there with the spirits in the middle of the song, you
00:36:29know, you've got to have someone keeping you here.
00:36:31It's a vulnerable place, I think.
00:36:36I'm thinking of one concert last year around April in Ballinskellex in the Parish Hall and I sang Queen in
00:36:44the Jivirja.
00:36:45And I was playing with...
00:36:47Ooghouns, Ooghouns.
00:36:48Yeah, yeah.
00:36:49I was playing with Mike Dowd, my friend, my former teacher.
00:36:53And I was thinking about mothers in Palestine.
00:37:00And I was, the song is about Jesus and the song is about Mary recognising her own child in agony.
00:37:08And I was really, like, in that emotion, in a way that's bigger than my own lived experience.
00:37:19In a sense, that lived experience is living in the song at that point, right?
00:37:22And I'm then a conduit for that.
00:37:25And I could feel my limbs, like, I don't know how to describe it, being pricked or something throughout that
00:37:41experience, throughout the song.
00:37:42And, like, knowing you have to just keep going.
00:37:48And it's hard to remember to, like, well, first of all, give yourself some, cut yourself some slack in that
00:37:55moment.
00:37:56But to come back and then, like, move on to the next song is a little bit hard.
00:38:02Ooghouns, Ooghouns, that's Mary lamenting to her child. Is that right?
00:38:11Yeah, it's one of the expressions, it's one of the vocalised, vocable expressions of grief that's in our keening tradition,
00:38:20the Ooghoun.
00:38:23But as far as I understand, keening was much more ecstatic as well.
00:38:29So, you might not know what was coming through you.
00:38:32It wasn't as regimented.
00:38:33That's a keene that's kind of been stylised into a song that we sing now.
00:38:39So, to finish up, could you give us a blast of it?
00:38:43Would you mind?
00:38:44Okay.
00:38:47Go now, Iris.
00:38:58Go now, Iris.
00:39:26Satsang with Mooji
00:40:01SONG CONTINUES
00:40:31SONG CONTINUES
00:41:01SONG CONTINUES
00:41:02Thank you very much for talking to me and for singing.
00:41:27SONG CONTINUES
00:41:31Welcome back to the third half, everybody.
00:41:33Who's next, Freddie?
00:41:35Tommy, our next guest is Mr Gilbert O'Sullivan.
00:41:39SONG CONTINUES
00:41:47SONG CONTINUES
00:41:47SONG CONTINUES
00:41:52How are you getting on?
00:41:53Good.
00:41:54Where are you living these days?
00:41:56The Channel Islands, Jersey.
00:41:58SONG CONTINUES
00:41:59How long have you been there?
00:42:00About 24, 24 years.
00:42:02Do you have a connection with the south coast of Ireland, am I imagining that, south west coast, southeast coast?
00:42:07Do you have a Wexford or Wicklow connection?
00:42:09Well, of course, yeah, I mean, watered when I was born, until I was seven years old.
00:42:15But, of course, we go back to Bunclody, go back to Wicklow, Tremor, all those places.
00:42:24I remember listening a lot to you in the, would I be right in saying it was kind of the,
00:42:31in the 80s, is that, is that, is that, is that, did you have a lot of chart success then?
00:42:37Am I, am I remembering that right?
00:42:40No.
00:42:40No, okay.
00:42:43Well, you kind of, you know, it's, the 70s was primarily the big, the big successful period.
00:42:49The 70s didn't get to NABN until the 80s.
00:42:51Okay, right, okay.
00:42:53That's your excuse.
00:42:55Okay.
00:42:56Anyway, the 70s was all the success.
00:42:5880s, not so much.
00:43:00How did it happen for you?
00:43:01Do you mind me asking if it's a too boring story for you to tell again?
00:43:05Once I took up songwriting seriously, the publisher of CBS, April Music, really liked the songs.
00:43:12So that got me on the first, I said, I wouldn't sign a publishing deal with you unless I get
00:43:17a recording contract.
00:43:19So they hummed and they hawed.
00:43:21When they saw how I wanted to present myself as a singer, they weren't exactly that impressed.
00:43:27They suggested that I wear, let my hair grow, wear what everybody wore in the 60s and 70s, jeans and
00:43:33whatnot.
00:43:34I had created a character called Gilbert based on Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton, cap and boots, putting bass in
00:43:41the haircut, which today is the height of fashion.
00:43:43Yeah, yeah.
00:43:44But in those days, he looked like a freak.
00:43:46So that's the difficulty CBS had, because they would have said, look, Ray, as they knew me, if you drop
00:43:53this image and just wear your jeans, look like James Taylor or somebody, we think you can be successful.
00:43:59But if you maintain this image that you want, we're not going to do much with you.
00:44:04But they realized that dropping me, they'd miss out on the songs.
00:44:09So they said, because we love the songs, we'll give you a recording contract.
00:44:12So they gave me a contract for a couple of singles a year.
00:44:16And what did you do in terms of how you looked?
00:44:19Well, that was the key factor.
00:44:20I tell you, I created a character called Gilbert.
00:44:23No, but did you go their way in terms of?
00:44:25Changing, of course not.
00:44:27Good man.
00:44:27No, no, no, not in a million years.
00:44:30But they weren't the first company to not like what I was in.
00:44:34Nobody liked how I looked.
00:44:36And I loved how I looked, because I just dared to be different.
00:44:40And I figured at this point, maybe what I should do, try and seek a top manager.
00:44:44This would be like 68, 69.
00:44:46So the manager at the top of the list for solo singers was Gordon Mills, who managed Tom Jones and
00:44:51Enkowitz Hummering.
00:44:52Now, I didn't want to be like them.
00:44:54I wasn't that type of singer.
00:44:56I had pictures of my image, and I had my songs and my little tape.
00:45:00And so I sent them to him.
00:45:02So I was, yeah, that was the moment.
00:45:04Then he took over.
00:45:06That meant I could make a really good record and release my first album.
00:45:13The thing is, I never saw success wanting the world to be like a David Bowie to conquer the world.
00:45:19I just wanted to, I was living in England.
00:45:22Ireland was close to me.
00:45:23So I wanted to have a success in England and Ireland.
00:45:26That's all I really wanted.
00:45:28I didn't look to Europe and stuff.
00:45:29Were you ever, after that initial moment, were you ever, did you ever have doubts about what you were doing?
00:45:37No.
00:45:38No.
00:45:38No.
00:45:39In the mid-70s, with Gordon, my manager, it became a slight problem.
00:45:43Because by mid-70s, the success was not so high.
00:45:48It was dropping down a bit, which is quite natural.
00:45:50And I hadn't lost that ambition to continue to make, you know, I felt that we could still do more
00:45:56better.
00:45:57Gordon then, by this time, had other interests.
00:46:00He had a private zoo with gorillas and tigers, amongst other things, in his garden.
00:46:06So that was occupying a lot of his time.
00:46:08Can't hide the profits forever.
00:46:10Right.
00:46:13So, you know, so he was spending more time in America.
00:46:16And I felt that, you know, the classic thing was, I said to him that there are artists like Rod
00:46:22Stewart who are working with American producers.
00:46:24Why not let me work with them?
00:46:26You're still my manager.
00:46:28Let me work with another producer, because he produced my records as well as managing me.
00:46:32And he wouldn't go for that.
00:46:34And I really was determined that to get more success, that's what we needed to do.
00:46:40So when I couldn't convince him of this by mid-70s, I broke up with him, which I thought would
00:46:46be the expression, it wouldn't be a bad breakup.
00:46:54It would be acceptable.
00:46:57I remember shaking hands with him when I told him that that's it.
00:47:03But it wasn't, of course.
00:47:04But that was a time when it was very different.
00:47:10The belief was still there, but the circumstances of working with new people was going to be something I had
00:47:15to face if I was successful in the breakup with my manager.
00:47:19So what did you do?
00:47:20Did you go to America?
00:47:22At that point?
00:47:23Mm-hmm.
00:47:23No.
00:47:24At that point, I had to go to court.
00:47:28Because of the work with him?
00:47:30Yeah.
00:47:31Well, because of him, yeah.
00:47:32Because when, again, these little things are very important, because I get upset when I read articles that say all
00:47:39I was interested in was money and stuff.
00:47:42But when Gordon signed me, I had been promised from the publishing company that they would give me a small
00:47:48company which I would co-own, as opposed to just being signed as a writer.
00:47:53If you're signed as a writer, the publisher's 100%, and you just get your writer's payments.
00:47:59So what was being offered was to give you a little company where you get a little bit of the
00:48:03publishing as well as your writer's share.
00:48:04It was brand new.
00:48:06So I thought, that's great for me, because I had two more years left of my agreement with the publisher.
00:48:11And Gordon said to me, you're not going to get it now, but if you're successful, I'll give it to
00:48:16you.
00:48:17Right?
00:48:17So the years went by, 72, 73, massive success.
00:48:21I would occasionally say to Gordon, any news on my little publishing company and stuff?
00:48:25I said, don't worry, you're going to get it and stuff.
00:48:27Years go by, another year back, I would drop hints and say, any news on the...
00:48:31It's all, yeah, I don't know what will be happening.
00:48:33When we broke up, I might shake hands with him, and I left his home thinking it was an amicable
00:48:38split.
00:48:38That's the word I was looking for, amicable.
00:48:41I said to him, do I still get, well, I still get my little small company.
00:48:45He said, yeah, you go into the office, this is the weekend.
00:48:49Go into the office on Monday, and Bill Smith, his chairman of the company, they'll do a sort of thing.
00:48:54Great, shake hands with him.
00:48:55I saw a government with my wife on the Monday, walked in, the head of the board, the chairman of
00:49:01the company was there,
00:49:02and said, you know, you're not going to get anything, just, you're not going to get anything.
00:49:08So I then had to decide what to do.
00:49:10So all my business had been looked after by M.E.M., lawyers and all that stuff.
00:49:15I had no experience of any of that.
00:49:17So I needed a lawyer.
00:49:19And what I thought would be just a case about the little interest for me, it became a whole can
00:49:25of worms, which lasted two, nearly three years.
00:49:30What was the outcome of it?
00:49:31I won it.
00:49:33You said that like a mafia boss.
00:49:36Well, I have to make it clear that I fought really hard.
00:49:40And I deserved to be able to express it in that way, because it was a very painful experience.
00:49:47You want to go to court?
00:49:48Who wants to go to court?
00:49:50Thinking that maybe, or if I have to go to court, it might be over in a day, but this
00:49:53is going on for weeks.
00:49:55So you won the court case, so you were then given a small publishing company?
00:49:59Well, I was given all the publishing.
00:50:01I was given all their publishing.
00:50:02I was given everything.
00:50:03You were given the record?
00:50:05I was given the whole thing.
00:50:07The rights to your songs?
00:50:08Everything, 100%.
00:50:09So people might not understand that if you own the publishing, you're entitled to whatever that publishing earns.
00:50:17When it's owned by a company, you might get 10 or 15% of it or something, but you own
00:50:21it all now.
00:50:21Yeah.
00:50:22Wow.
00:50:22I wasn't looking for that.
00:50:24I was given all my masters, all my recordings, which they owned because they made, were all given to me.
00:50:29I'm blessed with that, because to this day, it becomes very lucrative for people involved with me.
00:50:39Wow, that's a fortunate constant to have in your life, isn't it?
00:50:45That the publishing has all the time been earning something over the years.
00:50:49That's a wonderful thing to have.
00:50:51Yeah, it's incredible.
00:50:51The rights to that, yeah.
00:50:52Absolutely.
00:50:54Are you able to look back on parts of your career and kind of go, well, I always made an
00:50:58effort, but maybe for those few years, the angel of inspiration wasn't on my shoulder?
00:51:04No, because it can't have been there, because I've never had that, what do they call it, when you have
00:51:11a...
00:51:11Like a muse?
00:51:12Like a muse.
00:51:15It's when you can't write.
00:51:16Or writer's block.
00:51:18Your writer's block and stuff.
00:51:19I've never suffered from that.
00:51:20So I've never had the experience of losing.
00:51:22What I might have, what I might have, you know, I'm 79 years of age now, how much longer do
00:51:27I want to continue?
00:51:28Irvin Boleyn was 100 when he stopped writing.
00:51:32If I felt that I just wanted to stop, then, or if I couldn't write, you know, it's possible.
00:51:41You never know, and maybe I'll lose it.
00:51:43Then I would just, I love to walk.
00:51:46You know, we've got my family, so we'd take trips together and stuff.
00:51:49So I didn't, you know, have a good time.
00:51:51So the only thing I can really compare what you do is, say, stuff that I have, not to the
00:51:57same level, but, you know, that buzz of starting off and getting recognition and feeling, okay, jeez, I am able
00:52:07to do this.
00:52:09Then people come out of nowhere and they're so much more successful.
00:52:17Are those familiar feelings to you?
00:52:20Well, they're, I'm aware of them, very conscious of the business and stuff.
00:52:23I mean, I want, I mean, it's always disgruntled.
00:52:26I've always been dismayed a little by the serious music press.
00:52:30Don't have no interest in me because of how I looked.
00:52:32It's the image I created that hurt me badly for credibility.
00:52:36The credibility factor was rife with me because very few music magazines that, that, that wrote, wrote about songwriters and
00:52:45songwriting and stuff weren't interested in me because, you know,
00:52:49what I represented, they hated.
00:52:52And so I can understand that.
00:52:53I mean, I, you know, I could have been on their side if I had given up the image early
00:52:58on and stuff.
00:52:58What do you think you represented?
00:53:00Hmm?
00:53:00What do you think you represented?
00:53:02What I represented was of no interest anyway.
00:53:04You know, well, I, again, I'm not going into what other people were thinking, but I was conscious of it.
00:53:10I'm just aware of it, how little interest there was in me as a songwriter and as a, as a,
00:53:15as an artist and stuff.
00:53:16But I, and I've worked hard to change that.
00:53:19And I've actually done very well in doing that.
00:53:21Nineties and two thousands up to here in two, 20, 25, 26, I've got to a stage now where the
00:53:27credibility is creeping in.
00:53:29The reviews I'm getting from my albums are there when they never were.
00:53:32So that, that's a positive thing.
00:53:35It's, uh, and it's good that that's happening because I'm very active wanting to perform, wanting to write, wanting to
00:53:41record.
00:53:42So it's good that there's an aspect of the business, which are, you know, allowing me back in.
00:53:48What are they saying about you?
00:53:50Well, just, just as a crap artist and stuff, you know, he's, well, I mean, you know, the articles are
00:53:55there in papers.
00:53:55I tend not to.
00:53:56No, no, I mean, I mean, when you said the good reviews now.
00:53:59Yeah.
00:53:59What do the, what do the good reviews say about the songs?
00:54:01Well, they're giving, they're rating the songs.
00:54:03So they're, they're giving me praise for my songwriting.
00:54:06And I'm happy with that.
00:54:08It's nice to be, you know, it's nice to be,
00:54:12uh, appreciated.
00:54:14Uh, success in America and Australia.
00:54:18What was that like?
00:54:19Incredible.
00:54:20Well, again, the interesting thing was going back to what I said about wanting to be a success in England
00:54:24and Ireland.
00:54:25That for me was a dream.
00:54:26Here I was in 1972 with six weeks number one in America.
00:54:30The record company are just, they're floating on air.
00:54:33They're seeing checks coming in for a million pounds.
00:54:35And I'm at home in, in, in, in, in, uh, Weybridge where I lived.
00:54:42And, and, yeah, okay, I'm, you know, am I going to go to America?
00:54:46And, yeah, you've got to go to America because I hadn't gone before.
00:54:50And so I'm, you know, it's not that I'm not liking it.
00:54:54I mean, I, you know, it's, what is this?
00:54:57Okay.
00:54:58So I have to go to America?
00:54:59Okay.
00:54:59No concerts, obviously, because, uh, I haven't done that much concert-wise.
00:55:04So I go to America to do TV.
00:55:07And I, and I get nominated for three Grammys.
00:55:09And it's, it's, it's, a Dean Martin show.
00:55:13We sang a duet together.
00:55:15And he, I don't think he looked at me once.
00:55:17I was on major shows and doing chat shows.
00:55:19Johnny Carson and.
00:55:20Yeah, those kinds of things.
00:55:21So doing all those and stuff.
00:55:23And did nobody ever say to you, look, it's great that these massive checks are coming in, uh, for album
00:55:29sales.
00:55:29But there's, you know, there's Led Zeppelin stuff to be earned if you will go out and perform live, uh,
00:55:35and do big arenas.
00:55:37Was that ever, uh, an option for you?
00:55:41No, it couldn't have been an option for me.
00:55:43It would have been an option if, if I was having major success now.
00:55:46I have success now.
00:55:48The albums chart, all the albums of recent times have charted, whereas the ones in the last 10 years didn't
00:55:53chart.
00:55:53They were released, reviews became good in the last 10 years.
00:55:57So the album are charting.
00:55:59So I wouldn't, you know, the first arena show I'll ever do would be the one I do in Dublin
00:56:05in October.
00:56:05You're kidding me.
00:56:06Yeah.
00:56:07You're kidding me.
00:56:07That'll be my first, uh, yeah.
00:56:10And that's going to be, uh, something special.
00:56:14But I'm, I'm, I couldn't do those in the UK yet.
00:56:17I couldn't do them.
00:56:18Certainly not in, in Europe or America.
00:56:20I, I could try and work up to it.
00:56:23Because if I'm getting it in Dublin, the likelihood is that by next year, if this album is a success,
00:56:29as we'd like it to be,
00:56:30it could be that the next stage from going from 2000, a Cedar would be to arenas and stuff.
00:56:35It can happen.
00:56:36It's there in our minds.
00:56:39And are you excited about putting in the work that would, yeah.
00:56:44About really the, all the promo work.
00:56:46Yeah, because I know how different it will be on stage for the arena.
00:56:50Wow.
00:56:51All, everything's going to be brought in there.
00:56:53I heard when Dylan was there, they had a bloody wonderful curtain.
00:56:57Yeah, yeah.
00:56:57A gorgeous curtain.
00:56:58Big red thing.
00:56:58I said to our people, I said, make sure the curtain's there.
00:57:02And so, so, yeah, it's exciting because we'll be able to, I'm not working with a drummer.
00:57:06We'll probably bring the drummer back.
00:57:08String quartet, we might bring back.
00:57:09I think the song we have on the new album with a bit of a choir, we might bring the
00:57:13choir out to do that.
00:57:14So we can do that with an arena show.
00:57:17It's not about money.
00:57:18It's about being able to just present yourself bigger.
00:57:21So I'm excited about that.
00:57:24When is the show on?
00:57:25I mean, that's incredible.
00:57:27The arena show, October.
00:57:28October.
00:57:29That's, what an adventure.
00:57:32Well, yeah, maybe you should come along and see us.
00:57:34I should.
00:57:35I've never played an arena.
00:57:37That's a great adventure.
00:57:39Do I call you Gilbert or Ray?
00:57:41Either or.
00:57:43Either or, I don't mind.
00:57:45Okay.
00:57:46It's been a pleasure talking to you.
00:57:48Yeah, it's been interesting for me, Tom.
00:57:50I enjoyed it too.
00:57:55And it's encouraging and exciting that there's still adventure to be had.
00:57:59Absolutely.
00:58:00And I'll see you in October.
00:58:01Thank you very much.
00:58:02I've enjoyed it too.
00:58:04And now, ladies and gentlemen, all the way from Clare Island, it's Niall McCabe performing his current single, The Heart
00:58:11Remembers.
00:58:16Take me back, back over, over the ocean.
00:58:28The ocean wide, for wild and white is a man's emotion.
00:58:42When fate has forced him from heartland home.
00:58:52The heart remembers, as morning embers, all by the sun and the sun.
00:59:06I hopped back to the dawn, and so enroving, and always going, I lay the ways to get home again.
00:59:37The heart remembers, as morning embers, all by the sun and the sun and the sun and the sun and
00:59:43the sun and the sun and the sun.
01:00:10The heart remembers, as morning embers, all by the sun and the sun and the sun and the sun and
01:00:22the sun and the sun and the sun and the sun.
01:00:27But you's reflection and recollection
01:00:36Is still her waters and her false revels
01:00:44So take me back, back over, over the ocean
01:00:57The ocean white, a while and white
01:01:07A man's emotion
01:01:12When fate has forced him from our thunder
01:01:55So take me back, back over, over the ocean
01:02:34So take me back, back over the ocean
01:02:39So take me back, back over the ocean
01:02:39We want to go back, back over, over the ocean
01:02:39But you can take me back, back over the ocean
01:02:40So take me back, back over the ocean
01:02:40And have you ever seen before the ocean