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00:00:16Hello everybody, you're all very welcome to the show and I hope you enjoy what happens here over
00:00:20the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is, let me hand you over to our
00:00:24MC for
00:00:25the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Thank you, Tommy. Well, our first guests are Kathleen Gillespie and Anne Walker.
00:00:44Hello, hello. Welcome. Who's who? I am Kathleen. Kathleen. Kathleen Gillespie. How are you? It's lovely to meet you. And
00:00:51I'm Anne Walker. Anne, sit down there, both of you now.
00:00:56How come the two of you are on the show? Well, my name is Kathleen Gillespie and I'm a proper
00:01:04dairy care, born and bred. But anyway, my husband was murdered by the IRA 35 years ago.
00:01:16He was named as a legitimate target of war because he was employed by the Ministry of Defence as a
00:01:24civilian worker in one of the army camps in the town.
00:01:30What happened was the IRA took over my home, a group, approximately five or six. It was difficult for me
00:01:38to ascertain how many were actually there.
00:01:42And that happened at 10.30 at night on the 23rd of October 1990. Now, they held us captive until
00:01:52midnight that night.
00:01:54And they took my husband away at midnight. He was chained to a van containing 1,200 pounds of explosives.
00:02:02And he was forced to drive into the army camp that they wanted him to, well, destroy.
00:02:09And he drove there. And the explosion was detonated by remote control. And five soldiers were blown apart as long
00:02:22as with my husband.
00:02:24And, but I'm very proud to say that before the bomb was detonated, he shouted a warning to the people
00:02:34who were there.
00:02:35I'm going to say a bad word now. At the inquest, the surviving soldiers said that he shouted a warning
00:02:43and he saved many lives.
00:02:45And what he shouted to them is, run, look, fuck boys, I'm loaded. And then the explosion.
00:02:55That, that, that, that, that, after that, there was a lot of confusion because the boys who had stayed with
00:03:03me in the house had gone off in my, in, in my car.
00:03:07They took my car. They took my car with them when they were going. Um, and I, I went down
00:03:15the road.
00:03:15I thought that I, I was looking for Patsy. I didn't know where, you know, I thought, he'll be back.
00:03:19He'll be back.
00:03:20And I ran down the road and they were setting up an army checkpoint. And I said to them, have
00:03:26you seen Patsy? Have you seen Patsy?
00:03:27Patsy and I was taken back to the house. And I had to, it was a waiting game after that
00:03:33because there, there were no actual bodies, as you can understand.
00:03:39So, to be honest with you, I didn't believe that my husband was dead, because I had no body, never
00:03:45had a body to look at.
00:03:49And until the inquest, which was nearly two years later,
00:03:54I still was waiting for my husband to phone me
00:03:57and take me away somewhere with the children for safety.
00:04:04A lot of things happened in between
00:04:05where I still thought that my husband was alive.
00:04:08I was prepared, packed and prepared, ready to go at a minute's notice.
00:04:13But at the inquest, it was clear to me that he was dead.
00:04:21So Derry's is quite a... I mean, it's a city, but it's a big town as well.
00:04:25Yeah.
00:04:26So the IRA aren't some...
00:04:32They're not aliens.
00:04:33No, no, no.
00:04:35They're...
00:04:35Part of the community.
00:04:36They're part of the community.
00:04:40So you know them?
00:04:44Well, I know I can recognise a couple of the names that are in it,
00:04:49but there were...
00:04:50What made me very conscious of the fact
00:04:55that I could possibly have been walking about in the town
00:04:59because they were never charged.
00:05:01They were taken because they were captured over the border at a safe house.
00:05:06They were taken to Dublin, down here to Dublin.
00:05:09And they were held and then they were just let go.
00:05:14They weren't charged with anything at all.
00:05:16These are ordinary people who did these horrific things and have to...
00:05:25And everybody just has to get on with things and they're walking around.
00:05:31And how do you normalise something like that?
00:05:37So if I bring my wee story in...
00:05:39Please.
00:05:40I was three years old when Bloody Sunday happened.
00:05:42My uncle was one of the people that was murdered on Bloody Sunday.
00:05:45I was living in Wales at the time with my parents, my two-year-old sister.
00:05:49So we came home the next day and we grew up through the worst of the troubles.
00:05:54Grew up through the hunger strikes, through house raids,
00:05:56through harassment by police and British Army.
00:05:59Grew up in fear of the other.
00:06:02And when I realised that people weren't getting justice,
00:06:08I was asked to join the IRA at the age of 18
00:06:10and I became a member of the IRA.
00:06:13I've been a friend of Gallings for the past 15 years
00:06:17and together we share our stories.
00:06:19They affect change in communities, across communities
00:06:22and across the world, really, talking to universities.
00:06:27Are you Protestant?
00:06:29No, I'm a Catholic.
00:06:31You might be Catholic.
00:06:32I'm a Catholic.
00:06:33Well, not anymore.
00:06:34I was brought up a Catholic.
00:06:36I was brought up in a Catholic nationalist area.
00:06:41And that's interesting that you could ask that question.
00:06:45Yeah, because I'll tell you a wee story, a wee, very short story.
00:06:48We do a lot of schools, work in schools with 15, 16-year-olds.
00:06:54And we find the children, for asking questions,
00:06:59they're unbelievable.
00:07:00Unbelievable.
00:07:01And so the wee boy was called Tom, wasn't he?
00:07:05We sat down to start the Q&A and Tom says,
00:07:08Callan, Callan, he couldn't wait to get the question out.
00:07:10He said, Was your husband a Catholic?
00:07:12And I said, Yes.
00:07:14Are you a Catholic?
00:07:15And I said, Yes.
00:07:17Well, why did the IRA kill your husband?
00:07:19Because he was a Catholic.
00:07:20We thought the IRA killed the Protestants
00:07:22and the Protestants killed the Catholics.
00:07:24So then I had to start explaining to him
00:07:28why my husband was used.
00:07:32Even though he was a Catholic,
00:07:33it was because of his work and he was being paid.
00:07:37The IRA at the time were putting warnings
00:07:39for the civilian workers in the local media.
00:07:43And it was more or less, Get out or else you'll suffer.
00:07:46You know, that's basically what the warnings were saying.
00:07:49But nobody moved their job.
00:07:53Derry didn't have a lot of work at the time.
00:07:56So I had to explain to this wee boy
00:07:59that that was why rather than because he was a Catholic.
00:08:02What years were you in the IRA?
00:08:0686, not long after Pat's it out.
00:08:09So would you know who made the decision to kill her husband?
00:08:12No.
00:08:13No, that's not the way it works.
00:08:18I was in an active, not an active service unit.
00:08:20I was a quartermaster.
00:08:22I had a small unit.
00:08:25And we, the way it works,
00:08:28is that we moved weapons and stuff around.
00:08:31But you don't know what they're being used for.
00:08:34By the time Patsy was murdered,
00:08:37I was already backing my way out of the IRA.
00:08:40At that stage, a few things had happened
00:08:42and I was questioning my role and what we were doing.
00:08:47And even though initially I really believed
00:08:48what I was doing was right,
00:08:50I knew that I could die and that was okay.
00:08:53I knew that I could end up in jail.
00:08:56But I would discover that I couldn't kill
00:08:58when the IRA sent me and a comrade out
00:09:01on an active service mission one night
00:09:03to set off a bomb
00:09:06that would kill a passing police and soldier patrol.
00:09:11Interestingly enough,
00:09:12that day I was very sick,
00:09:14very sore headache.
00:09:15And I didn't want to do this,
00:09:17not because I had the headache,
00:09:19but I had never been directly involved
00:09:21in actually killing somebody.
00:09:23I'd been sort of part of the background.
00:09:26Went out anyway to do this operation
00:09:29and I got very sick.
00:09:31I needed to go to the bathroom.
00:09:33My comrade says,
00:09:34you better go to the toilet.
00:09:35There was a pub close by,
00:09:36but on the way back,
00:09:38there was a pain in my head.
00:09:39It felt like somebody hit me with a hammer.
00:09:42I went round to him
00:09:43and he said,
00:09:44there's something wrong with you.
00:09:45You need to go home.
00:09:46And I said, no,
00:09:47I'm staying here with you.
00:09:48But I got started throwing up
00:09:51and it was obvious
00:09:51that there was something really wrong.
00:09:53So he sent me home
00:09:54and we aborted the mission.
00:09:56But we had been set up that night.
00:09:58The British Army were never going to come.
00:10:00We'd been set up by an informer
00:10:01and if I hadn't had the brain hemorrhage,
00:10:03which is what actually happened,
00:10:06we probably would have been shadow arrested.
00:10:10But one of the reasons
00:10:11that myself and Kathleen do this work together
00:10:14is that in 2009,
00:10:16an American lady came from Philadelphia.
00:10:18She came to a community arts building in Derry
00:10:21and started doing productions.
00:10:24And part of her method
00:10:26was to bring people
00:10:27from diverse backgrounds together.
00:10:29She began with a production
00:10:32called We Carried Your Secrets
00:10:33or We Carried Your Secrets.
00:10:36And within that production,
00:10:37she managed to get
00:10:38former IRA,
00:10:40former loyalist paramilitary,
00:10:43servant police officer,
00:10:44a young woman
00:10:45who came from a mixed marriage background,
00:10:47your parents were mixed marriage.
00:10:49When that went on stage,
00:10:50one of the first reactions
00:10:52from the audience
00:10:53was it was like
00:10:54watching open-heart surgery.
00:10:57I have to admit,
00:10:59I'm a bit thrown.
00:11:01I'm sure you are.
00:11:02Because I've always thought that
00:11:07people in the south
00:11:09are not in a position
00:11:11to
00:11:14moralise
00:11:15about people in the north
00:11:17because
00:11:17for the most part
00:11:19that was not
00:11:20their lived experience.
00:11:23The sectarianism
00:11:25and the
00:11:26brutality.
00:11:30And I've always thought that
00:11:31if people decided,
00:11:33in theory,
00:11:34if people have decided
00:11:35that they want to join the IRA,
00:11:38then
00:11:39I can understand
00:11:41that choice being made.
00:11:42but I've never actually
00:11:44sat across
00:11:45from somebody
00:11:46who has said
00:11:47I was in
00:11:48the IRA
00:11:49and I just want to acknowledge
00:11:50that I'm
00:11:51slightly
00:11:52gobsmacked.
00:11:53In a way,
00:11:55because I guess
00:11:57that
00:11:58I suppose it's hard to imagine
00:12:02that people like me
00:12:05end up in
00:12:06peace and reconciliation
00:12:07and peace processes
00:12:08and becoming
00:12:09best friends
00:12:10with somebody
00:12:11whose organisation
00:12:12killed Kathleen's husband.
00:12:13Can you talk me
00:12:14through the process
00:12:15of joining the IRA
00:12:18and how that
00:12:18would have been
00:12:19a possibility
00:12:20in your imagination?
00:12:23My uncle was killed
00:12:24on Bloody Sunday.
00:12:25That changed
00:12:25my whole family's future.
00:12:27My father was actually
00:12:28serving in the RAF
00:12:29at the time.
00:12:30We were stationed in Wales,
00:12:31about to be stationed
00:12:32in Hong Kong.
00:12:33It wasn't unusual
00:12:34in those early years
00:12:36for people from my background
00:12:38to be members
00:12:39of the British Armed Forces.
00:12:40He had two brothers
00:12:41that were in the Armed Forces
00:12:42as well.
00:12:43And my mother had brothers
00:12:44that were in the Armed Forces.
00:12:46But that was the time
00:12:47when it was right.
00:12:49We either,
00:12:50my daddy resigned
00:12:51or we never came back home.
00:12:53But my mother's brother
00:12:54was murdered
00:12:54by the power troopers
00:12:55in Bloody Sunday.
00:12:56We were home the next day.
00:12:58And that was the beginning
00:12:59of a new journey.
00:13:01We grew up as
00:13:03Bloody Sunday family,
00:13:05marked nationalist,
00:13:06marked and the bauxite,
00:13:08marked.
00:13:09So we then experienced
00:13:10the worst of the harassment
00:13:12from British Army and police.
00:13:14House raids, harassment.
00:13:17My mommy got arrested
00:13:18out of the house
00:13:18at one stage.
00:13:19My daddy got arrested
00:13:20out of the house
00:13:20at one stage.
00:13:22And as I'm growing up,
00:13:24a young girl
00:13:25and my mommy and daddy
00:13:26are having more children,
00:13:28I'm watching my younger siblings
00:13:30getting harassed.
00:13:31And 13 years of age
00:13:34is when the hunger strikes happen.
00:13:36So I live through
00:13:36all the hunger strikes.
00:13:38Every year,
00:13:39I'm going to Bloody Sunday
00:13:40commemoration marches.
00:13:41I still do.
00:13:45And it was just chaos.
00:13:48I went to so many
00:13:50children's funerals
00:13:51that were shot and killed
00:13:53by plastic bullets,
00:13:54adults' funerals.
00:13:55There was more wakes.
00:13:57And I lived in a very small situation
00:14:00that I believed everybody
00:14:02in the north of Ireland
00:14:03was having the same experiences
00:14:04as me.
00:14:06And as I grew
00:14:07into a young teenage woman,
00:14:09the harassment
00:14:10that I had been getting
00:14:11from British Army and police
00:14:13turned nastier,
00:14:15more verbal and sexual,
00:14:16and that wasn't just me,
00:14:18that was all my friends.
00:14:19And that becomes
00:14:20part of your normality.
00:14:22In recent years,
00:14:23I've been reminiscing
00:14:25and thinking back
00:14:26on all the reasons
00:14:27why maybe I did join.
00:14:29And it sort of hit me
00:14:30like a ton of bricks one day.
00:14:31I'd never seen justice
00:14:32getting done.
00:14:33I'd never seen anybody
00:14:36getting any satisfaction
00:14:37out of the campaigns
00:14:39they were having
00:14:40for their people.
00:14:42And I was asked to join.
00:14:44Somebody came to me
00:14:45and said,
00:14:45would you join up?
00:14:47Why did they ask you,
00:14:47do you think?
00:14:48I think,
00:14:49I say it on stage,
00:14:51they've seen more to me
00:14:53than marches and demonstrations.
00:14:56And in that moment in time,
00:14:57I said, yes,
00:14:58I was becoming
00:14:59one of my heroes.
00:15:00I couldn't believe
00:15:01that they wanted me.
00:15:03It didn't take very long
00:15:04for me to realize
00:15:05that idealism,
00:15:08that reality,
00:15:09that romantic dream
00:15:10of me saving my people
00:15:11and getting the Brits out,
00:15:13that there was
00:15:13a whole lot more to it.
00:15:15And it was terrifying.
00:15:18I was also being abused
00:15:20within the movement as well
00:15:21when I was abusing
00:15:22his power with me.
00:15:23So I was trapped in a way
00:15:27in a situation where,
00:15:29like, I'm supposed to be
00:15:29one thing
00:15:30and that's not what I am.
00:15:34There's a couple of
00:15:35instances,
00:15:37like the night
00:15:38of the brain hemorrhage,
00:15:39being out on that bomb,
00:15:41Patsy's death,
00:15:42another couple of...
00:15:43I got arrested
00:15:44and interrogated
00:15:45and tortured
00:15:45in Castle Ray.
00:15:47And all of that
00:15:48just helped me walk away.
00:15:50I'm sure that I became
00:15:51a liability as well
00:15:52and they were glad
00:15:52to get rid of me.
00:15:55And then,
00:15:56that begins
00:15:57a whole other part
00:15:58of the story.
00:15:59Yeah.
00:16:00What's your feeling
00:16:02towards, say,
00:16:03the man who abused you
00:16:06in terms of justice
00:16:08in that arena?
00:16:14Sometimes,
00:16:15in this world,
00:16:17and especially now
00:16:18at the moment
00:16:18when you look around,
00:16:21women don't normally
00:16:22get justice
00:16:23for that kind of abuse
00:16:24anyway.
00:16:25So if there's anything
00:16:26that I can do at all
00:16:27that has helped me heal
00:16:31and helped me be part
00:16:33of other people's healing,
00:16:34it's this.
00:16:36It's what we do,
00:16:38with not just myself
00:16:39and Kelly.
00:16:39We love each other.
00:16:40We're great friends.
00:16:41We've great crack.
00:16:42But we are two
00:16:44of very many stories
00:16:45that do this,
00:16:46that share their own
00:16:47true stories.
00:16:50And these friendships,
00:16:52relationships,
00:16:52working relationships
00:16:53are born out of
00:16:55absolute truth
00:16:56and vulnerability.
00:16:57Were you able
00:16:58to tell Kathleen
00:17:01in terms of
00:17:02the decision-making process
00:17:04and how Patsy
00:17:05was deemed to be...
00:17:07a legitimate target of harm?
00:17:08Well, just collateral damage.
00:17:11That is also...
00:17:14So...
00:17:16We didn't really talk
00:17:17about that kind of stuff
00:17:18because I didn't believe
00:17:19that we should be doing that.
00:17:21And that's one of the reasons
00:17:22that I walked away.
00:17:23I was horrified
00:17:24when Patsy was killed.
00:17:25Horrified.
00:17:27We were killing our own people.
00:17:28Well, could you...
00:17:29Were you able to help Kathleen
00:17:31understand why the decision
00:17:34was made to allow him
00:17:36to be killed?
00:17:37No, because I wasn't part of that.
00:17:38Because she didn't know.
00:17:42Patsy was,
00:17:43as I told you before,
00:17:45Patsy was considered
00:17:46a legitimate target of war.
00:17:48And the reason
00:17:49that he was considered
00:17:51a legitimate target of war
00:17:53was because
00:17:54he was being
00:17:55paid
00:17:56by the Ministry of Defence
00:17:58working
00:17:59in an army camp
00:18:01as a civilian.
00:18:02And he wasn't...
00:18:04He didn't have an important...
00:18:05A great, big, important job.
00:18:07He was working
00:18:08in the kitchens
00:18:08as maybe a sous-chef
00:18:11or something similar
00:18:12and doing
00:18:12things in the kitchens.
00:18:15And...
00:18:17I think that he was used
00:18:19as an...
00:18:20Well, I know...
00:18:21I'm certain he was used
00:18:22as an example
00:18:24to all the civilians
00:18:25who were working there now
00:18:26at that time
00:18:28in the camps.
00:18:29Working for
00:18:30and being paid
00:18:31by the Ministry of Defence.
00:18:32Right, we'll just let them see
00:18:34what's going to happen to him
00:18:35if they don't stop that.
00:18:37You know, if they don't work...
00:18:38Did you ever say to him,
00:18:39Patsy,
00:18:40stop?
00:18:41Yeah, I did many times.
00:18:43But he said,
00:18:44well, how am I going to...
00:18:46How am I going to keep my family?
00:18:47How am I going to rear my family?
00:18:49How am I going to
00:18:49keep the house going?
00:18:51You know, he...
00:18:52It was a job.
00:18:54For him, it was a job.
00:18:55He loved the job.
00:18:57Even though he would have been...
00:18:59He would have felt
00:19:00the force of the sectarian oppression
00:19:02and all that
00:19:02and he would have been...
00:19:03There were things
00:19:04we couldn't do in our life.
00:19:06I mean, we had...
00:19:07We had two cars.
00:19:09Patsy had the car
00:19:10that he used for work
00:19:11and I had the family car.
00:19:13And...
00:19:14Patsy had to look under the car
00:19:16to examine the car
00:19:18every morning
00:19:19before he went out
00:19:19because it was a time
00:19:21when they were putting bombs
00:19:22under the cars.
00:19:24And, uh...
00:19:25We weren't allowed in his car.
00:19:27We were only allowed in the...
00:19:28But you must have been
00:19:29screaming at him
00:19:30but he could find another job.
00:19:31Yeah.
00:19:32But there were no jobs.
00:19:33He was...
00:19:34There just were no jobs.
00:19:35It's also the case, like,
00:19:36even if you're going up
00:19:37in nationalist areas.
00:19:39My daddy tried to get us
00:19:40to emigrate to Australia.
00:19:41We didn't want to go
00:19:42because we didn't want to leave her family.
00:19:44We didn't want to leave her granny.
00:19:45We didn't want to leave her friends.
00:19:47We didn't want to...
00:19:48It becomes so normal.
00:19:49Your life becomes so normalized
00:19:51within that situation
00:19:52that even trying to get out
00:19:54of that situation
00:19:55is more terrifying
00:19:56than what you're used to.
00:19:57I told you that Patsy
00:19:59was taken away
00:20:00from our house at midnight
00:20:03and, um...
00:20:04I've never...
00:20:05I'd never...
00:20:06I'd never seen Patsy after that.
00:20:09Now, um...
00:20:10There's a wee poem,
00:20:11a wee tiny poem.
00:20:12It'll take me a minute
00:20:13to read out.
00:20:14Now...
00:20:15We'll get it for you.
00:20:15Thank you, Anne.
00:20:18Um...
00:20:18It's...
00:20:19It's very, um...
00:20:20much
00:20:22how I feel.
00:20:23Now, I would like to claim it
00:20:25as mine
00:20:26that I wrote it,
00:20:27but I didn't.
00:20:28I was reading a novel.
00:20:30I read novels
00:20:31to put me to sleep at night.
00:20:32And this was written
00:20:33by a 14-year-old boy
00:20:35whose mother walked out
00:20:36on the whole family
00:20:37and they never saw him again.
00:20:39And I thought,
00:20:40no, that's like Patsy.
00:20:42Patsy was taken away at midnight.
00:20:43I was left
00:20:44being held by men
00:20:46at gunpoint
00:20:48with balaclavas
00:20:49and stuff on them.
00:20:50And I never saw Patsy again.
00:20:53So, um...
00:20:54If you don't mind,
00:20:54just bear with me a minute.
00:20:57Many moons ago...
00:20:58But thereabouts...
00:21:00You went away.
00:21:02Are you OK?
00:21:03Or is your hair a little grey?
00:21:06Or thereabouts?
00:21:07And by the way,
00:21:09I think about you every day
00:21:11or thereabouts.
00:21:13Do you remember too?
00:21:15Do you get blue?
00:21:17All these years between?
00:21:18What have you done?
00:21:20Where have you been?
00:21:22I don't even know
00:21:23your whereabouts.
00:21:24And did I say,
00:21:26I think about you every day
00:21:28or thereabouts?
00:21:30I just think that
00:21:32because he was taking away
00:21:35a healthy man
00:21:37and he was given back to me
00:21:39in a coffin
00:21:39with bits of bodies in,
00:21:43what happens to you
00:21:45on the inside
00:21:46in terms of reconciliation?
00:21:49Like, how does your mind
00:21:51and your heart
00:21:52and all that...
00:21:53What do you go through?
00:21:55Well, I have a thing
00:21:58first of all
00:21:58there's a lot of people
00:22:00who don't understand
00:22:00why I can work with Anne
00:22:03because she's ex-IRA
00:22:04because I have a full
00:22:06standing strong
00:22:08of non-forgiveness
00:22:10and some people
00:22:11are shocked at that
00:22:13and people are saying,
00:22:15you know,
00:22:16how can you work
00:22:17with an ex-IRA woman
00:22:18yet you won't forgive the IRA?
00:22:20I says,
00:22:21Anne and I don't talk
00:22:22about forgiveness.
00:22:23She's never asked me
00:22:24to forgive her
00:22:24and it's not...
00:22:26I says,
00:22:26it's not up to me
00:22:27to give forgiveness.
00:22:28The one who has to give
00:22:29the forgiveness
00:22:30is the man who's dead.
00:22:32He was murdered.
00:22:33They murdered him.
00:22:34I can't speak for him
00:22:35and say,
00:22:36oh, I forgive them all.
00:22:38One of the biggest worries
00:22:39that I had at the time
00:22:40was that my husband
00:22:42was murdered
00:22:42on our eldest son's
00:22:4418th birthday
00:22:44the 24th of October
00:22:45and he's got that
00:22:47to face up to every year
00:22:49and they were 16 and 18
00:22:51when their daddy was murdered
00:22:54and ripe, ripe
00:22:56for the IRA to recruit them
00:22:59and I was terrified.
00:23:01I was scared shitless
00:23:03about if they decided
00:23:05on revenge
00:23:06what am I going to do?
00:23:08How am I going to handle them?
00:23:09How am I going to work with them?
00:23:10What am I going to do?
00:23:11But thank God
00:23:13I'm so very proud
00:23:15of the two men
00:23:16that my son's
00:23:17have grown up and they...
00:23:18Mike,
00:23:19we have to wrap this up now
00:23:21but I want to ask you
00:23:22what your sense
00:23:24of the issues
00:23:27facing the North
00:23:28now
00:23:30and there's a lot of talk
00:23:31about, you know,
00:23:32oh we'll have a referendum
00:23:33sometime in the next 10 years
00:23:35or, you know,
00:23:36we will have a United Ireland
00:23:37at some stage
00:23:40what's your sense
00:23:41of all that?
00:23:44What we see
00:23:45out there
00:23:46on the ground
00:23:47is fear
00:23:49fear of
00:23:50a future United Ireland
00:23:52we see
00:23:53a community
00:23:54that is
00:23:55now looking
00:23:56at their identity
00:23:57and afraid
00:23:58of what's to come
00:23:59and people getting
00:24:00back into their trenches
00:24:01I do believe
00:24:03that there's a lot
00:24:03of work to do
00:24:04and there's a lot
00:24:05of ground work
00:24:06to do now
00:24:07for a possible
00:24:08United Ireland
00:24:08that I can't see
00:24:10that I will see
00:24:10in my future
00:24:11but it could be
00:24:12in my sons
00:24:12it could be
00:24:13in the grandkids
00:24:14but there's work
00:24:15to do
00:24:15but we are
00:24:19I am blessed
00:24:20and I feel
00:24:21very privileged
00:24:22to sit beside
00:24:23this woman
00:24:24who's my great friend
00:24:25and encourager
00:24:25and I hope I'm
00:24:26the same to you
00:24:26I just
00:24:27I love you Kelly
00:24:28and you know what
00:24:29and we
00:24:30have been
00:24:32more than friends
00:24:33for a long time
00:24:34because
00:24:36our story
00:24:37together
00:24:37was born out
00:24:38of truth
00:24:39and vulnerability
00:24:39and if we
00:24:41can pass
00:24:42that on
00:24:42to other
00:24:44groups of people
00:24:45which we try
00:24:46and do
00:24:46it shows
00:24:47other people
00:24:49people think
00:24:50that I should
00:24:51hate her
00:24:51I should
00:24:52not be friends
00:24:53with her
00:24:53because she was
00:24:54part of the IRA
00:24:55when my husband
00:24:56was murdered
00:24:56and they don't
00:24:58understand
00:24:58how I can be
00:24:59such good friends
00:25:00with her
00:25:00you know
00:25:03they just don't
00:25:03understand
00:25:04and then
00:25:04don't see the
00:25:05crack we have
00:25:08we have to
00:25:09wrap it up there
00:25:11thank you
00:25:11for listening
00:25:12thank you both
00:25:13so much
00:25:13for coming on
00:25:14and good luck
00:25:16with the crack
00:25:16as well
00:25:17we do
00:25:18thank you
00:25:20so much
00:25:21it's just been
00:25:22an experience
00:25:23and my daughter
00:25:23is so jealous
00:25:32welcome back
00:25:34to the second
00:25:34half everybody
00:25:35who's next
00:25:36Freddie
00:25:36Tommy
00:25:37our next guest
00:25:38is Mr Steve
00:25:40Davis
00:25:48how are you doing
00:25:49very very nice
00:25:50to see you again
00:25:51how are you
00:25:51yeah good
00:25:53I was watching you
00:25:55weirdly enough
00:25:55on YouTube
00:25:58last night
00:26:00you've got to get out
00:26:00more
00:26:01I should do
00:26:02it was from
00:26:041980
00:26:042000
00:26:051990
00:26:06I can't remember
00:26:07it was the final
00:26:08of some
00:26:09American
00:26:11eight ball
00:26:13nine ball
00:26:14tournament
00:26:14with playing
00:26:15Chris Melling
00:26:17in the final
00:26:19oh right
00:26:19do you remember
00:26:20I don't even remember
00:26:21but what really
00:26:22struck me was
00:26:25how
00:26:30focused
00:26:31and competitive
00:26:33and
00:26:34determined
00:26:36you were
00:26:39and you had
00:26:39your hair was
00:26:42utterly red
00:26:43so it was a good
00:26:44while ago
00:26:44I can still
00:26:45show you
00:26:45I can still
00:26:46show you some
00:26:50but yeah
00:26:50I was really
00:26:51struck by that
00:26:51and that's the first
00:26:53thing that came to me
00:26:53when you walked on there
00:26:54well I suppose
00:26:56it's my super skill
00:26:57on the planet
00:26:58you know
00:26:58you get lucky
00:27:00if you have one
00:27:01and that was the thing
00:27:02that really turned me
00:27:03on as a kid
00:27:06this control sport
00:27:07was right up my alley
00:27:08I love games
00:27:10but I also found out
00:27:11I was pretty good
00:27:12with a stick
00:27:13and a ball
00:27:14getting it in a hole
00:27:15and
00:27:17and enjoyed
00:27:18not just
00:27:19the fact that
00:27:20I was good at it
00:27:20but also I loved
00:27:21the tactics as well
00:27:22the strategy
00:27:24so that part
00:27:25didn't you used to play
00:27:26chess by post
00:27:27as well or something
00:27:28well back in the day
00:27:29playing chess was fun
00:27:31my father taught me
00:27:31to play chess
00:27:32before he taught me
00:27:33to play snooker
00:27:33and I love
00:27:34I just love strategy games
00:27:36so I know you're
00:27:37a big poker fan
00:27:38once you get involved
00:27:39in a strategy game
00:27:40on that level
00:27:42it's fantastic
00:27:43but the fact that
00:27:44snooker was on
00:27:45both levels
00:27:45how amazing
00:27:46in terms of style
00:27:48right
00:27:48I sometimes watch
00:27:50footage of Higgins
00:27:51amazing
00:27:52and what's really
00:27:54interesting is
00:27:54there's a classical
00:27:56way of being trained
00:27:57in the sense
00:27:58this is what you must do
00:27:59and you were
00:28:00the kind of
00:28:02the thoroughbred
00:28:02of that technique
00:28:04and then you get
00:28:05Alex who is kind of
00:28:06there's a kind of
00:28:08you'd wonder
00:28:11how he's managing
00:28:12to do what he's doing
00:28:14given that
00:28:15it's like he's full
00:28:16of firecrackers
00:28:17or something
00:28:17it's incredible
00:28:18yeah
00:28:19I think
00:28:19it could be the same
00:28:21for golfers
00:28:22some of the
00:28:23unorthodox golfers
00:28:25have some
00:28:25magical talent
00:28:26because they're not
00:28:27by the book
00:28:28but when I started
00:28:30to
00:28:30when I started
00:28:32to fall in love
00:28:33with the game
00:28:34at the time
00:28:35my father was
00:28:36very much trying
00:28:37to learn the game
00:28:38from a book
00:28:39by Joe Davis
00:28:40the original guy
00:28:41and he'd written
00:28:42a book called
00:28:43How I Play Snooker
00:28:44and we used that
00:28:45as a blueprint
00:28:46to try and get
00:28:47everything right
00:28:48because it seemed
00:28:49to me like
00:28:49okay I've got the talent
00:28:50but maybe you need
00:28:52to have the technique
00:28:52as well
00:28:53but that was the fact
00:28:55that I had somebody
00:28:55in my corner
00:28:56sort of bearing down
00:28:58saying look
00:28:58let's do it right
00:28:59let's do it
00:28:59the correct way
00:29:00as the only way
00:29:02we knew
00:29:02but Alex came
00:29:04from a background
00:29:04of probably
00:29:05not having much
00:29:06technical advice
00:29:07just went
00:29:08with the talent
00:29:10sometimes they're
00:29:11flaws
00:29:12but they also
00:29:12create other things
00:29:13so the theory books
00:29:15the rule books
00:29:16of how to play
00:29:17that are written
00:29:18by other people
00:29:19may or may not
00:29:20be the right way
00:29:20and they may
00:29:21stifle you
00:29:22as much
00:29:24so I look at
00:29:26Alex Higgins
00:29:26a genuine genius
00:29:28and we've only had
00:29:29a few in the game
00:29:29I would put
00:29:30that genius bracket
00:29:31on
00:29:32we're all very talented
00:29:33we're the top
00:29:34in the world
00:29:35we're all very
00:29:36and then you get
00:29:37somebody like
00:29:37Alex Higgins
00:29:38Jimmy White
00:29:39Roddy O'Sullivan
00:29:40who seem like
00:29:41another level
00:29:41of genius
00:29:42but you've tasted
00:29:43a bit of that
00:29:43I remember
00:29:44we played an exhibition
00:29:45somewhere
00:29:45with Hector
00:29:46was it
00:29:46Hector and Ken Doherty
00:29:48two wannabes
00:29:49but you were great fun
00:29:51and you can play
00:29:52a bit as well
00:29:52well my highest break
00:29:53is 66
00:29:54but I never had
00:29:55I never had
00:29:56the consistency
00:29:57I'm more from
00:29:57the Luca Purcell
00:29:58school of performing
00:30:00than the Steve Davis one
00:30:03so the image of that
00:30:06is almost kind of
00:30:07of your success
00:30:09it's almost monastic
00:30:11do you know what I mean
00:30:12it's almost like
00:30:14study
00:30:15work
00:30:16commitment
00:30:17perfection
00:30:19emotionless
00:30:22not showing any emotions
00:30:24or whatever
00:30:24that image
00:30:27and then something
00:30:28happened where
00:30:28you just became
00:30:29this person
00:30:30who was up
00:30:31for a bit of crack
00:30:32who
00:30:32oh I see
00:30:33right
00:30:34yeah
00:30:34who just
00:30:36I think I remember
00:30:37hearing that you
00:30:39did you
00:30:39did you get
00:30:40divorced or something
00:30:42did you start
00:30:43doing
00:30:44becoming a DJ
00:30:45and next thing
00:30:46you're on telly
00:30:48having a laugh
00:30:48and I'm just wondering
00:30:49what that
00:30:50that's what it looks
00:30:51like from the outside
00:30:53if you were
00:30:54telling the story
00:30:54how would you tell it
00:30:55so when you start
00:30:57playing snooker
00:30:58in a snooker club
00:31:00you have to
00:31:01you have to live
00:31:02by your wits as well
00:31:03because they are places
00:31:05where you know
00:31:06every day you get
00:31:06piss taken out of you
00:31:07and you have to give it
00:31:08back
00:31:08so all snooker players
00:31:10are able to
00:31:11have a laugh
00:31:12around the snooker
00:31:13table
00:31:15and so when you
00:31:17first turn professional
00:31:18I couldn't laugh
00:31:19and joke around the
00:31:20table
00:31:20because that was
00:31:20serious
00:31:21that was sacrosanct
00:31:22so then all of a sudden
00:31:23you're in this zone
00:31:24where you're boring
00:31:25it's great
00:31:26there's no pressure
00:31:27but what happened
00:31:28for me was even
00:31:29weirder
00:31:30when Spitting Image
00:31:32decided to make
00:31:33a puppet of me
00:31:35and
00:31:37doubled down
00:31:38on the boring bit
00:31:39that my puppet
00:31:39thought it was
00:31:40interesting
00:31:40and the next minute
00:31:42I'm interesting
00:31:42because I've got
00:31:43a puppet
00:31:44and we do a
00:31:44comedy book
00:31:45how to be really
00:31:46interesting
00:31:46and the next thing
00:31:47is
00:31:48people say
00:31:49yeah
00:31:50he's coming
00:31:51out of himself
00:31:52and then
00:31:53further down
00:31:54the line
00:31:54you're doing
00:31:55on chat shows
00:31:56and you're having
00:31:56a laugh
00:31:57and you're doing
00:31:57weird things
00:31:58and slowly
00:31:59people quite get
00:32:00to like you
00:32:01as you're getting
00:32:02older
00:32:02and they don't
00:32:04feel possibly
00:32:05that you're
00:32:07they've got to
00:32:07know you a bit
00:32:08more
00:32:08and they realise
00:32:09that maybe
00:32:09you aren't as
00:32:10you're a rounder
00:32:11person
00:32:11maybe so
00:32:13do you have
00:32:13many children
00:32:14two
00:32:15not as many
00:32:15you're prolific
00:32:16aren't you
00:32:17six
00:32:17well done
00:32:18is that
00:32:20difficult
00:32:21no
00:32:22you learnt
00:32:23yeah
00:32:23how would you
00:32:26two boys
00:32:27two boys
00:32:28how would you
00:32:29describe yourself
00:32:30as a dad
00:32:32in comparison
00:32:33to your
00:32:33dad
00:32:36well I was
00:32:37never there
00:32:38really
00:32:39I was on the
00:32:40road
00:32:40so I wasn't
00:32:41particularly a good
00:32:42dad I'm sure
00:32:42you know
00:32:43I don't think
00:32:44they don't hold
00:32:45any grudges
00:32:46they're doing
00:32:46alright
00:32:46but I don't
00:32:48think that was
00:32:49necessarily something
00:32:50that I was
00:32:50particularly great
00:32:51at
00:32:52and here's the
00:32:53one thing about
00:32:53people in sport
00:32:54I've done about
00:32:55entertainment
00:32:56you are
00:32:57you're a very
00:32:57selfish person
00:32:59yeah
00:32:59I'll put my
00:33:00hand up to that
00:33:01and you're involved
00:33:02in what you're
00:33:03doing
00:33:03so from
00:33:04during the
00:33:0590s
00:33:05I was still
00:33:06playing
00:33:06professional snooker
00:33:08and very much
00:33:09that blinkers
00:33:11on
00:33:11and maybe
00:33:12it's better
00:33:13if you're
00:33:13not so
00:33:14prolific
00:33:15then you can
00:33:16perhaps dip
00:33:16in and out
00:33:17a bit more
00:33:17but the
00:33:19prolific winners
00:33:20in the
00:33:22sport I know
00:33:23perhaps they
00:33:24have to be
00:33:24very selfish
00:33:26maybe that's
00:33:27one of the
00:33:27reasons why
00:33:28you are good
00:33:28would you give
00:33:29yourself a hard
00:33:30time about that
00:33:31no
00:33:31about being away
00:33:32from home
00:33:33no
00:33:34no not at all
00:33:35no because it
00:33:35was all about
00:33:36it's all about
00:33:37me
00:33:38it's all
00:33:38it's all about
00:33:39you
00:33:39it's all about
00:33:40the next job
00:33:42you're doing
00:33:42so I would never
00:33:43beat myself up
00:33:44over it
00:33:44but if I look
00:33:45back
00:33:45I'm sure I wasn't
00:33:47particularly great
00:33:47in that department
00:33:48it's an obsession
00:33:49as well isn't it
00:33:50totally
00:33:50it's thinking about
00:33:51when you're not
00:33:52doing it
00:33:52yeah
00:33:52so that
00:33:54thinking about
00:33:55snooker
00:33:55it was
00:33:55every day
00:33:56all day
00:33:57and when it was
00:33:58even going wrong
00:33:58in the 90s
00:33:59when that bloke
00:34:00came along
00:34:00called
00:34:01Stephen Henry
00:34:02who nicked
00:34:03all my prize money
00:34:04and all my sweets
00:34:07even when I wasn't
00:34:08the best in the world
00:34:09I was still driven
00:34:10to the point of going
00:34:11right
00:34:11what am I doing wrong
00:34:12with my technique
00:34:13I've got to go down
00:34:14the practice room
00:34:14and work out
00:34:15with this little
00:34:16fingers like that
00:34:17is that better
00:34:17than if it's like that
00:34:19because it was me
00:34:20that was going wrong
00:34:21not Stephen
00:34:21going right
00:34:23so once you're
00:34:24in the competitive
00:34:25world
00:34:25that is hard
00:34:26to get off of
00:34:27and I'm sure
00:34:28the same in the
00:34:29entertainment world
00:34:30tough to get off
00:34:31to say I'm not
00:34:32enjoying this as much
00:34:33you still have to go
00:34:34for it
00:34:34so I spent most
00:34:36of the 90s
00:34:36practising
00:34:37just like the 80s
00:34:38and that is
00:34:41rewarding beyond belief
00:34:42but on the subject
00:34:43of was I a great
00:34:44family man
00:34:45probably not
00:34:47did your
00:34:48did your missus
00:34:50ever say to you
00:34:52where are you
00:34:53I reckon
00:34:54most wives
00:34:56partners of
00:34:57snooker players
00:34:58or sports people
00:34:59at some stage
00:35:00have said
00:35:01if it's that way
00:35:03round
00:35:03have said
00:35:04to their
00:35:05husbands
00:35:08I'm
00:35:09pleased
00:35:09when you lose
00:35:10because you
00:35:10come home
00:35:11yeah
00:35:12and that was
00:35:13from the heart
00:35:14and I
00:35:15understood that
00:35:16but I sort of
00:35:17I didn't want to
00:35:18lose and come home
00:35:19because I wanted to
00:35:19win
00:35:20there's also an
00:35:20awareness isn't
00:35:21there that
00:35:21you're in your
00:35:22early 60s
00:35:23I'd say
00:35:23are you 61
00:35:2462
00:35:24oh thanks
00:35:25nah bloody hell
00:35:2768
00:35:27no way
00:35:29honestly I'm in bits
00:35:31Steve you look phenomenal
00:35:32yeah but you see how much
00:35:34what does the make-up woman put on me
00:35:37nah nah
00:35:38you look great fella
00:35:39well you're trying to
00:35:39trying to be
00:35:4068 wow
00:35:41trying to be Peter Pan
00:35:42do you have good
00:35:44personal habits
00:35:45no
00:35:46what
00:35:47what do you mean by that
00:35:48like
00:35:49er
00:35:50a respect for your body
00:35:52exercise
00:35:53do you have
00:35:56a thing where
00:35:57I need to see my friends
00:35:59I need to hang out
00:36:00with other people
00:36:01I need to
00:36:02like are you good
00:36:03at minding yourself
00:36:04and all those things
00:36:05no
00:36:07no
00:36:09really
00:36:11and
00:36:11well I'm
00:36:12I'm sure I'm not as bad
00:36:13as I would make out
00:36:14what
00:36:14are you just lucky
00:36:15what that I don't have
00:36:16all that baggage
00:36:18how do you figure all that
00:36:19er
00:36:20well
00:36:20I mean like
00:36:21we can all do more exercise
00:36:22I have had little moments
00:36:23I started doing weights recently
00:36:25that's a bad thing to do
00:36:26I can't even lift the bar up
00:36:28but
00:36:29yeah I don't
00:36:30I don't go totally
00:36:31off the deep end
00:36:32but
00:36:33but I think
00:36:34it's also
00:36:34erm
00:36:37maybe
00:36:37it's conditioning
00:36:38to living in the moment
00:36:39being as a sports person
00:36:41it's good to live in the moment
00:36:43that's the best way to play
00:36:46so you don't think about
00:36:47anything in the past
00:36:47you're not looking forward
00:36:48you're just
00:36:49there
00:36:50whatever's in front of you
00:36:51you've got to get that
00:36:52in the hole
00:36:53that's
00:36:54the training
00:36:54I've had all my life
00:36:56I
00:36:57I sort of
00:36:57don't
00:36:58I don't
00:36:58that's how
00:36:59that's how it all works out
00:37:01what am I doing today
00:37:02I'm not planning
00:37:03I'm
00:37:04you know
00:37:04I'm living the day
00:37:06which is really lovely
00:37:07in one respect
00:37:08but I'm sure it's bad
00:37:09in another way
00:37:09so
00:37:10what about snooker
00:37:11for you now
00:37:11as a player
00:37:12don't play it anymore
00:37:13don't need to play it anymore
00:37:15done it
00:37:15erm
00:37:16don't mind
00:37:17don't want to
00:37:18get the ball in the hole anymore
00:37:19don't see the point of it
00:37:20erm
00:37:22there's no point
00:37:24there's no point
00:37:25what am I going to do
00:37:25what am I trying to get the ball in the hole anymore
00:37:27what am I going to do with it
00:37:29you should bring that attitude to the commentary you do
00:37:31oh it's wobbled
00:37:33it looks better if it wobbles
00:37:34it's more pretty
00:37:35it's prettier if it wobbles
00:37:36and goes somewhere else
00:37:37then it goes in the hole
00:37:38it disappears
00:37:38oh that would be so magnificent
00:37:40just kind of cranky Steve Davis on commentary
00:37:42no yeah
00:37:43he's lost it
00:37:44he's lost the plot
00:37:45he's actually enjoying the beauty of the game
00:37:47because they stay on the table
00:37:48and gets rearranged
00:37:51what I have done
00:37:52which has been
00:37:53I've been so lucky
00:37:54is that I've been
00:37:55I've started by accident
00:37:57doing some DJing
00:37:59that's been fun
00:38:00but I've also
00:38:00by accident
00:38:01discovered a musical instrument
00:38:04called a modular synthesizer
00:38:06that has loads of wires coming out of it
00:38:08doesn't have a keyboard
00:38:10so you don't need any skill
00:38:12as such
00:38:13but it makes music
00:38:14and as a result of that
00:38:16I've been
00:38:17with my friends
00:38:18musician friends
00:38:19making music
00:38:20and putting albums out
00:38:22I was going to bring an album along
00:38:24to give you
00:38:26as a
00:38:27contrived
00:38:28advert
00:38:29but we've sold out
00:38:30I haven't got any for you
00:38:31sorry
00:38:31apologies
00:38:32but I've had so much fun now
00:38:34making music
00:38:35in the moment
00:38:37and so
00:38:37making music
00:38:39is something that
00:38:40I didn't ever think
00:38:41was going to happen in my life
00:38:42so my second hobby
00:38:43has become
00:38:44half a journey as well
00:38:46I'm so
00:38:47I can't believe my luck
00:38:49is it with knobs
00:38:50yeah loads of knobs
00:38:52loads of wires
00:38:52and
00:38:53does it play kind of frequencies
00:38:55yeah
00:38:56and sequences
00:38:57and it's a bit like
00:38:58going back to the days
00:39:00of Tangerine Dream
00:39:00and you know
00:39:01big sort of
00:39:02telephone exchange wires
00:39:03and the connections
00:39:05make the music
00:39:06what's Tangerine Dream?
00:39:08Tangerine Dream?
00:39:09yeah
00:39:10what?
00:39:12yeah yeah
00:39:12a German synthesizer band
00:39:14from the
00:39:15from the 70s
00:39:17what's Tangerine?
00:39:18do you not know
00:39:19Tangerine Dream?
00:39:20no but just the fact
00:39:20that you say
00:39:21with such
00:39:22with such arrogance
00:39:23a 1970s German synthesizer band
00:39:25and that we should know
00:39:26everybody
00:39:27don't
00:39:27do you
00:39:28no
00:39:28what's your musical
00:39:29I went
00:39:30is it the Buffy band?
00:39:31no
00:39:31I'm not saying they're not
00:39:32because they're great
00:39:32I kind of went from
00:39:34Christaberg
00:39:35into Status Quo
00:39:36into Bob Dylan
00:39:38that's my
00:39:40really?
00:39:41never mind
00:39:42never
00:39:43never
00:39:44never mind
00:39:45I was more of a PJ
00:39:47than a DJ
00:39:48well that's the great thing
00:39:49is you don't
00:39:50you don't need to
00:39:51have music in your life
00:39:53yeah
00:39:53obviously you haven't
00:39:54well no I do
00:39:55I'm more of a lyrics person
00:39:57yeah yeah yeah
00:39:58I'm not
00:39:59I'm
00:40:00wow
00:40:02I don't
00:40:03they get in the way
00:40:04they get in the way
00:40:04all that lyric
00:40:05all that sort of
00:40:06deep meaningful stuff
00:40:07I just want to listen to music
00:40:09repetitive music
00:40:10drone music
00:40:11that's my stuff
00:40:11really
00:40:11I just want to listen to drone music
00:40:14so you're a Brian Eno fan
00:40:15sort of
00:40:16ambient
00:40:17yes
00:40:17a little bit
00:40:18yeah
00:40:18I love
00:40:19even stuff that's only got one note
00:40:21and goes on for ages
00:40:22like meditative stuff
00:40:24of being in the moment
00:40:26so are the performances
00:40:29improvised
00:40:29improvised
00:40:31so
00:40:32I don't want to talk about myself
00:40:34but it feels like that
00:40:36what on earth am I here
00:40:37right
00:40:37what on earth am I doing on this
00:40:39I had nothing to sell
00:40:40right
00:40:40I don't know why I've come on
00:40:41anyway
00:40:42but
00:40:42so the music is improvised
00:40:45yeah
00:40:46so what happened was
00:40:47we start
00:40:47we had a little jam
00:40:48because I learned to play
00:40:49musical instrument
00:40:50with my mates
00:40:51who are proper musicians
00:40:52yeah
00:40:53we went
00:40:53this sounds good
00:40:54let's make it into a record
00:40:55we took the record
00:40:56to a record company
00:40:57got a couple of knockbacks
00:40:59along the way
00:40:59then one record company
00:41:00said yeah we'll put this out
00:41:01we shook hands on the deal
00:41:03and as we shook hands
00:41:05and we were about to leave
00:41:06the guy from the record label
00:41:08went
00:41:08and you will be
00:41:10touring to promote the album
00:41:11won't you
00:41:12and my mates went
00:41:13yeah of course
00:41:15and I thought
00:41:16that means going on the stage
00:41:18playing music
00:41:19so I've been
00:41:20I've been on the stage
00:41:21in a band
00:41:22we played Whelan's
00:41:23we played at Whelan's
00:41:25I've played at Whelan's
00:41:26you're a fan
00:41:27it's ridiculous
00:41:28you're a conundrum
00:41:29it's a ridiculous
00:41:29well it's no plan
00:41:31there's no plan
00:41:31there wasn't a plan
00:41:33to play snooker
00:41:33let alone buy a modular synth
00:41:35but actually
00:41:36improvised music
00:41:37is maybe similar
00:41:39to sport
00:41:40which is you
00:41:42you just improvise
00:41:42you don't know
00:41:43what's happening
00:41:44when you go out
00:41:44on the snooker table
00:41:45wow
00:41:45god almighty
00:41:46honestly it's so scary
00:41:47I'm more scared
00:41:48of doing that
00:41:49than I've been
00:41:50walking out of the crucible
00:41:51how long are the
00:41:52hour
00:41:53but how long are the tracks
00:41:55how long is the piece of music
00:41:56hour
00:41:57it's an hour
00:41:59we've made
00:42:00we've made records
00:42:01where we make
00:42:02make pieces into
00:42:03tracks
00:42:03but
00:42:05when we do it
00:42:06we just improvise
00:42:06for an hour
00:42:07and obviously
00:42:08people are leaving
00:42:09in their droves
00:42:10and
00:42:11no
00:42:12it's a certain
00:42:14type of
00:42:15performance
00:42:16but so
00:42:17but the improv
00:42:18the improvising
00:42:19is for me
00:42:20it's become this
00:42:21really important thing
00:42:22of in the moment
00:42:23we're all living
00:42:24in the moment
00:42:25so as much as you can
00:42:26improvise your life
00:42:27and enjoy it
00:42:29do it
00:42:29what's the name
00:42:30of your band
00:42:31the Utopia Strong
00:42:36I should have brought
00:42:38you a CD
00:42:39you're full of
00:42:39beautiful surprises
00:42:40Steve
00:42:41really
00:42:42it
00:42:43is
00:42:44a wonder
00:42:45to talk to you
00:42:46and thank you
00:42:47very much
00:42:48for coming on
00:42:48to the show
00:42:49it's been a pleasure
00:42:50been an honour
00:42:51thank you so much
00:42:51thank you
00:43:07welcome back to the
00:43:08third half everybody
00:43:09who's next
00:43:10Freddie
00:43:11Tommy
00:43:12our next guest
00:43:13is Mr Mike Skinner
00:43:25we're both looking
00:43:26quite existential
00:43:27I like that
00:43:30did you get to talk
00:43:31to Steve
00:43:32about the music
00:43:34the
00:43:35no
00:43:36oh Steve Davis
00:43:37yeah
00:43:37yeah yeah yeah
00:43:38sorry
00:43:38sorry I thought you
00:43:39were talking about
00:43:39one of your people
00:43:40yes
00:43:41yes
00:43:41no so
00:43:43I've actually DJ'd
00:43:45I don't know whether
00:43:46it was before or after him
00:43:47yeah but I met him
00:43:48behind the decks
00:43:50so
00:43:51wow
00:43:52yeah no he's
00:43:53he's more into modular
00:43:54synths now
00:43:55but
00:43:57yeah amazing
00:43:58amazing transformation
00:44:00I think so
00:44:00yeah
00:44:01are you busy
00:44:02I am very busy
00:44:07people
00:44:08when I'm
00:44:12the big lie
00:44:14about touring
00:44:15is that you're busy
00:44:18because
00:44:19actually the hard work
00:44:22is
00:44:23before the tour
00:44:26so
00:44:27probably 95%
00:44:29of my energy
00:44:29just goes into
00:44:31remembering words
00:44:32I mean it's like
00:44:34people sort of see
00:44:35I mean this show
00:44:37that
00:44:37that we're doing
00:44:39at the moment
00:44:40is
00:44:41less like
00:44:42rap music
00:44:43and more like
00:44:44a musical
00:44:46because I made
00:44:47an album
00:44:48called
00:44:49A Grand Don't Come For Free
00:44:50that was
00:44:51a story
00:44:52right
00:44:53you know
00:44:53so it's
00:44:54it's
00:44:55everything
00:44:56that I've
00:44:56experienced
00:44:57had experienced
00:44:59sort of
00:45:00rearranged
00:45:01into
00:45:02like
00:45:03a beginning
00:45:03and an end
00:45:04um
00:45:07and yeah
00:45:08and like
00:45:08the song
00:45:09uh
00:45:10Dry Your Eyes
00:45:11which was
00:45:12the biggest
00:45:13song
00:45:14or
00:45:15one
00:45:15one of the big songs
00:45:16it was
00:45:17um
00:45:18you know
00:45:19I
00:45:20I
00:45:21for me
00:45:22that
00:45:22that is
00:45:24that's a real thing
00:45:25that really happened
00:45:26so I think about that
00:45:28when I sing it
00:45:29but
00:45:30I don't
00:45:31it doesn't
00:45:32um
00:45:34after you've been singing
00:45:36a song for 20 years
00:45:37you don't
00:45:39I don't
00:45:40like experience
00:45:41the song
00:45:42anymore
00:45:43I mean I experience it
00:45:45in the sense that
00:45:45are we going to fuck it up tonight
00:45:47that's my experience
00:45:50no we didn't fuck it up
00:45:51great
00:45:52who would your
00:45:53so
00:45:54who would your heroes be
00:45:55in terms of live performance
00:45:57then
00:45:57I mean
00:45:59for live performance
00:46:00obviously I'm completely obsessed
00:46:02with rap music
00:46:02and rap music
00:46:03is
00:46:04is just
00:46:05always
00:46:06always there
00:46:07um
00:46:08but for the streets
00:46:10er
00:46:13it's much
00:46:15I'd say
00:46:16more influenced
00:46:17by films
00:46:18really
00:46:18and
00:46:19but when I'm on stage
00:46:21I
00:46:22I do think
00:46:23probably comedy
00:46:25is probably
00:46:26like Stuart Lee
00:46:27like if
00:46:29if you
00:46:29if you
00:46:30um
00:46:31if you watch like
00:46:32a street show
00:46:33and then you
00:46:35watch like Stuart Lee
00:46:36it's probably like
00:46:38well I think it's probably
00:46:39fairly obvious
00:46:40that like
00:46:42it's not
00:46:43um
00:46:44yeah I think
00:46:44I definitely think
00:46:45that's kind of
00:46:46it comes from places like that
00:46:48rather than
00:46:48um
00:46:49yeah
00:46:51rather than rap
00:46:52do you
00:46:53is there a difference
00:46:53between the way
00:46:54that you wrote
00:46:5625 years ago
00:46:58er
00:46:58and the kind of
00:47:00concentration
00:47:01and the
00:47:02maybe the fevered
00:47:04application
00:47:05and the intensity
00:47:07have you there's a difference
00:47:08between that and writing now
00:47:10all the cliches are true
00:47:12right
00:47:12you know
00:47:13you
00:47:13you get your
00:47:14you get your whole life
00:47:15to write your first album
00:47:17and then you have to write
00:47:18your second album
00:47:19in one year
00:47:21and
00:47:23and then
00:47:24you know
00:47:24the artist becomes
00:47:25really successful
00:47:26and they
00:47:27they
00:47:28go out
00:47:29to too many parties
00:47:31and then
00:47:31um
00:47:33and then they write
00:47:34the rehab album
00:47:35I mean it's
00:47:36it's like
00:47:37all the cliches are true
00:47:39right
00:47:39so I think probably
00:47:41when I started
00:47:42I was like
00:47:43no I'm gonna
00:47:44I'm gonna like
00:47:45write
00:47:46ten songs
00:47:46and they're gonna be
00:47:47they're gonna have
00:47:49a
00:47:49a
00:47:50a purpose
00:47:51like a
00:47:52a table
00:47:54uh
00:47:54I definitely
00:47:56convinced myself
00:47:57that
00:47:59I could do that
00:48:01and
00:48:01and then
00:48:02and people wouldn't say
00:48:03oh he thinks he's
00:48:05better than us
00:48:06or something like that
00:48:06because
00:48:07growing up
00:48:08I grew up in Birmingham
00:48:09and I think there is
00:48:11a sense of
00:48:12not getting above yourself
00:48:13that's quite
00:48:15that's really strong
00:48:16are you uh
00:48:18quite a principled person
00:48:20I think it's really important
00:48:22to be
00:48:22trustworthy
00:48:23and I think
00:48:25that
00:48:27you need
00:48:28to
00:48:28have
00:48:31good
00:48:31relationships
00:48:32and
00:48:34and that
00:48:34you can't fake that
00:48:36you can't
00:48:36so what
00:48:37you have to be trustworthy
00:48:38yeah
00:48:39so yeah
00:48:39I'm principled
00:48:40yeah I am
00:48:41but I guess I probably
00:48:42don't see it in a
00:48:45uh
00:48:48a very
00:48:50it's not a very deeply
00:48:52spiritual thing
00:48:53to me
00:48:53it's more just like
00:48:56actually you have to be
00:48:57long term
00:48:59and being long term
00:49:00is
00:49:03is
00:49:03that's kind of
00:49:05that's
00:49:05god I sound like a fucking robot
00:49:07don't I
00:49:08no
00:49:09yeah I'm principled
00:49:10and loyalty
00:49:11it sounds like you're
00:49:12yeah loyalty
00:49:13loyalty
00:49:14um
00:49:14I mean I'm obsessed
00:49:16you know that tv show
00:49:17traitors
00:49:17yeah
00:49:18I'm obsessed with that
00:49:19because I think
00:49:21it's
00:49:23it's
00:49:23it's like
00:49:27it's
00:49:27it's
00:49:28you have to
00:49:31you
00:49:32you have to build alliances
00:49:33right
00:49:34you have to be
00:49:34to be loyal
00:49:36but then there's also
00:49:37a point at which
00:49:40you need to get through
00:49:41to the next
00:49:41day
00:49:42and so
00:49:43you are going to have to
00:49:44stitch
00:49:44some people up
00:49:47and
00:49:47and hopefully
00:49:48you do it in a way
00:49:49where
00:49:52they understand
00:49:54that
00:49:54you stitch them up
00:49:56one thing I've always
00:49:57I think
00:49:57sorry to interrupt
00:49:58when you're young
00:49:59I mean
00:50:00my song dry your eyes
00:50:01was essentially about
00:50:03the first relationship
00:50:04that you have
00:50:04where
00:50:05you think
00:50:06you're going to be
00:50:07with that person forever
00:50:09and
00:50:11you can
00:50:12you can almost put
00:50:14all of your
00:50:15shit
00:50:16onto them
00:50:17and
00:50:18and say
00:50:20we're going to look after
00:50:22each other forever
00:50:22or something
00:50:23and so you become selfish
00:50:25it's a selfish thing
00:50:27to
00:50:28to rely on someone
00:50:30so much
00:50:31that you're not
00:50:35yeah and so
00:50:36and then that person
00:50:37walks away from you
00:50:38and your first reaction
00:50:39is
00:50:40oh wow
00:50:41I'm alone
00:50:42I'm alone
00:50:43as you age
00:50:45I think you realise
00:50:46that these things
00:50:47are not
00:50:47like
00:50:48the movies
00:50:49it's not just like
00:50:50I'll be there
00:50:51for you forever
00:50:52and stuff
00:50:53it's
00:50:53real life
00:50:55is
00:50:56is
00:50:57just a constant
00:50:59um
00:51:02uh
00:51:03negotiation
00:51:04of
00:51:05of just all these
00:51:06loyalties
00:51:08um
00:51:09but I
00:51:10I do think
00:51:11the answer usually lies
00:51:13in
00:51:15uh
00:51:16sticking with
00:51:17the people
00:51:19you know
00:51:20I mean I've been
00:51:20with the same manager
00:51:22forever
00:51:24um
00:51:25you know
00:51:26I've
00:51:27I've
00:51:27I've
00:51:27been married a long time
00:51:29so
00:51:29so it's
00:51:31it's
00:51:32um
00:51:33I think it's
00:51:34it's good
00:51:35you get to a point
00:51:36where you're like
00:51:36actually this is
00:51:37we've kind of
00:51:38we've done it
00:51:38you know
00:51:39it's um
00:51:40we've managed to get
00:51:41through this
00:51:42together
00:51:43are there
00:51:44are there rules
00:51:45uh
00:51:46to your music
00:51:49yeah
00:51:50is there a code
00:51:51like is there
00:51:51is there a
00:51:53philosophical code
00:51:54or something
00:51:54or is there a
00:51:55well I mean
00:51:55my music is just
00:51:57it's just
00:51:58I'm just telling stories
00:51:59really so
00:52:00um
00:52:01I
00:52:02uh
00:52:03I move around
00:52:07uh
00:52:08in a lot of
00:52:09different worlds
00:52:11and that's something
00:52:12that
00:52:13I mean even
00:52:14even just this
00:52:15now
00:52:16one thing I
00:52:18I say to my kids
00:52:19is
00:52:19I
00:52:21I get paid
00:52:22to be embarrassed
00:52:24right
00:52:24and people say
00:52:26what were you talking
00:52:27about
00:52:27you're
00:52:28you're a musician
00:52:30and stuff
00:52:31but the feeling
00:52:32and I think
00:52:34and I think it's
00:52:35the right feeling
00:52:36actually
00:52:36the overwhelming
00:52:38feeling most of the
00:52:39time is
00:52:40is that you just
00:52:40want to get into
00:52:41a hole
00:52:42and sort of
00:52:43um
00:52:43you're embarrassed
00:52:45it's embarrassing
00:52:46you know
00:52:47I DJ
00:52:48I do shows
00:52:50you know
00:52:51I'm sitting here
00:52:52with you now
00:52:53and um
00:52:57it's
00:52:57it's a feeling
00:52:58of
00:52:59you feel
00:53:00kind of
00:53:02embarrassed
00:53:02um
00:53:05and I think
00:53:06there's a sense
00:53:08people
00:53:09most
00:53:10a lot of people
00:53:11are not willing
00:53:14they're not willing
00:53:15to be embarrassed
00:53:16not on the level
00:53:17that
00:53:18you are
00:53:19when you stand
00:53:20on a stage
00:53:22which is
00:53:24you don't know
00:53:25how it's going to go
00:53:27and
00:53:28it's
00:53:29it's excruciating
00:53:31do you know what I mean
00:53:33it sounds to me
00:53:34like
00:53:35the thing of embarrassment
00:53:36is somehow connected
00:53:37to vulnerability
00:53:39and that
00:53:40but that
00:53:40but it's a vulnerability
00:53:41that's really important
00:53:42yeah
00:53:43so how do you keep that
00:53:45how do you keep that
00:53:46how do you not get clever
00:53:48well it has to be embarrassing
00:53:50basically
00:53:51I mean
00:53:51David Bowie says
00:53:52that sort of thing
00:53:54said that sort of thing
00:53:56um
00:53:58he would talk about
00:53:59vulnerability
00:54:00right
00:54:01um
00:54:02but I think
00:54:03vulnerability
00:54:05is
00:54:07I think it's very
00:54:08easy to convince yourself
00:54:11you're being vulnerable
00:54:12you know
00:54:12if you sing a sad song
00:54:14that's exactly the same
00:54:16as every other sad song
00:54:17that's ever been out
00:54:18you can convince yourself
00:54:20that you're being vulnerable
00:54:20but you're not
00:54:21you're just singing a sad song
00:54:23that's exactly the same
00:54:24as all the other sad songs
00:54:25which is pretty much
00:54:27what every musician
00:54:30starts off doing
00:54:31yeah
00:54:32embarrassment
00:54:32it is vulnerability
00:54:34but it's
00:54:35it's like
00:54:37you've made a song
00:54:38that isn't like
00:54:39all the other sad songs
00:54:41that everyone's ever written
00:54:42ever
00:54:44you're doing something
00:54:45different
00:54:46and that comes with
00:54:48a deep feeling
00:54:50of embarrassment
00:54:51and
00:54:52and
00:54:52and then
00:54:53what you have to do
00:54:54is to
00:54:54is to
00:54:55is you
00:54:57you sort of go
00:54:57okay
00:54:58I've made the decision
00:54:59to do that
00:55:00and now I'm going to stand here
00:55:02and I'm going to look at you all
00:55:04and I'm going to say
00:55:05this is
00:55:07what the fuck
00:55:08I'm doing
00:55:09and
00:55:11you
00:55:12you have to
00:55:14try to then
00:55:15convince them
00:55:15that you mean it
00:55:16um
00:55:18wow
00:55:18that's a difficult
00:55:20um
00:55:20in the moment of creation
00:55:24that's a
00:55:24yeah
00:55:25because
00:55:25what you
00:55:27the thing you want to avoid
00:55:28is a kind of a weak
00:55:30self-indulgence
00:55:33and
00:55:33it's
00:55:34difficult to
00:55:35tell the difference
00:55:36between when you're
00:55:37kind of
00:55:37complaining
00:55:39and being weak
00:55:40for the sake of attention
00:55:42or when you're creating something
00:55:44that is honest
00:55:45yeah
00:55:46and
00:55:47uh
00:55:48yeah
00:55:48do you have a
00:55:49do you have a sense of
00:55:50of what you honestly believe
00:55:52like are you able to
00:55:54reduce it to a sentence
00:55:56or
00:55:57is that even possible
00:55:58er
00:56:03I think I'm
00:56:04I'm a
00:56:04I think I'm a bit more
00:56:06spiritual than I used to be
00:56:08for sure
00:56:09um
00:56:10and I don't think that's because
00:56:11I'm old
00:56:12and I'm aware that I'm going to die
00:56:16even though those things are true
00:56:18I think
00:56:19I think I'm
00:56:20spiritual because
00:56:22I actually think that's
00:56:23where the science
00:56:25is going
00:56:27I think that
00:56:28um
00:56:29the
00:56:30the material world
00:56:33is not what
00:56:35we think it is
00:56:37and I think consciousness
00:56:39we haven't even begun
00:56:41to understand
00:56:43to understand
00:56:43where
00:56:44where all this comes from
00:56:46I think we
00:56:47we've figured out
00:56:49material
00:56:50the material world
00:56:52and then um
00:56:53you know
00:56:54quantum science
00:56:55all these things now
00:56:57I mean there's scientists
00:56:58that are saying
00:56:59that the universe
00:57:00is made
00:57:01of consciousness
00:57:03everything is conscious
00:57:04which you can kind of think
00:57:06that's a bit strange
00:57:08but
00:57:10it's kind of
00:57:12I mean I'm
00:57:13I'm
00:57:14I love watching videos
00:57:15about UFOs
00:57:16I mean I'm just
00:57:17my family think
00:57:18I'm completely crazy
00:57:19um
00:57:20but I find it
00:57:22fascinating
00:57:23and
00:57:24and um
00:57:25just hearing people
00:57:26and like UFOs
00:57:27and like sort of
00:57:28near death experiences
00:57:29these sort of like
00:57:30really extreme moments
00:57:32in people's lives
00:57:33what's the attraction
00:57:34of the UFO stuff
00:57:35like what do you find
00:57:36compelling about it
00:57:37well
00:57:38I
00:57:38I believe it
00:57:41is that's
00:57:42that
00:57:42I really believe it
00:57:44I don't
00:57:44I don't think
00:57:47I
00:57:47I don't think
00:57:49that
00:57:49it is
00:57:50um
00:57:52nothing
00:57:53and
00:57:55and I would say
00:57:55I would say
00:57:57I can be
00:57:58I'm
00:57:59100% sure
00:58:00it is not
00:58:01nothing
00:58:02right
00:58:03but then as soon
00:58:04as you say
00:58:05it is something
00:58:06you sort of have to
00:58:07then be able to
00:58:08entertain anything
00:58:10you know
00:58:10you have to
00:58:11you have to start
00:58:12thinking well maybe
00:58:13maybe they're already here
00:58:15maybe they're from
00:58:16the future
00:58:17maybe
00:58:19the
00:58:19they're from
00:58:21another
00:58:22dimension
00:58:23I mean
00:58:23you know
00:58:24talking about other
00:58:24dimensions
00:58:25you sound like
00:58:26a sort of
00:58:281950s
00:58:28sci-fi
00:58:30freak
00:58:31but
00:58:31but
00:58:33we accept
00:58:34we accept
00:58:35that up
00:58:35down
00:58:36left and right
00:58:37and forwards
00:58:37and backwards
00:58:38is real
00:58:39in the
00:58:40materialist
00:58:41sense
00:58:41but
00:58:42when you start
00:58:44thinking about
00:58:44the fourth dimension
00:58:45that involves
00:58:47time
00:58:47time
00:58:48so if you were
00:58:49a four-dimensional
00:58:51being
00:58:52you would actually
00:58:54see
00:58:54time
00:58:55in the way
00:58:56that we see
00:58:57this glass
00:58:58so I think
00:59:00I think
00:59:02having
00:59:04spent a lot of time
00:59:05in dark rooms
00:59:07I think
00:59:10just
00:59:10yeah
00:59:11just
00:59:11even
00:59:12considering
00:59:12the fourth dimension
00:59:13is utterly
00:59:14bonkers
00:59:15so one of the
00:59:16things about
00:59:16we say
00:59:17Buddhism
00:59:17would be that
00:59:21this historical
00:59:22figure of the Buddha
00:59:23said all these things
00:59:25but he also said
00:59:25test it out for yourself
00:59:27none of what I said
00:59:28is of any relevance
00:59:29unless it has meaning
00:59:30for you
00:59:31so experience it
00:59:32test it out
00:59:33and if you don't think
00:59:34it's true
00:59:34move on
00:59:35absolutely
00:59:38with the alien stuff
00:59:40and that's
00:59:41I don't
00:59:42want that phrase
00:59:43to sound too derogatory
00:59:44but whatever the phrase is
00:59:46it's all
00:59:48hearsay
00:59:49for you isn't it
00:59:50it's all kind of
00:59:51I read this guy I saw
00:59:52that guy I saw
00:59:54in terms of
00:59:55personal investigation
00:59:57personal experience
01:00:01it's
01:00:02yeah I mean
01:00:03as I say
01:00:03I'm not
01:00:04I would be
01:00:07I
01:00:07because I'm an artist
01:00:09I don't
01:00:11I can be mad
01:00:12I mean
01:00:13people
01:00:14I'm
01:00:15I don't need
01:00:16for people to think
01:00:17that I'm sane
01:00:18because
01:00:21I am an artist
01:00:22I'm crazy
01:00:25so I will
01:00:26I've always been
01:00:27quite happy to say
01:00:28this
01:00:30this is what I believe
01:00:32but I fully
01:00:33I mean people
01:00:34they laugh at me
01:00:35but
01:00:37as I said
01:00:38I'm
01:00:38I get paid
01:00:40to be embarrassed
01:00:42we have to wrap up now
01:00:43but I
01:00:45it's funny
01:00:46because just talking to you
01:00:47I would have had the sense
01:00:48when the streets
01:00:49started of
01:00:51um
01:00:53of a kind of a defiance
01:00:55and a
01:00:58non-apologetic
01:01:01way of being
01:01:02and I think
01:01:04and I think talking to you
01:01:05I can now also see
01:01:07the vulnerability in it
01:01:08and how
01:01:09uh
01:01:10how important that is
01:01:11and that
01:01:12that's uh
01:01:14that's inspiring
01:01:17um
01:01:19no
01:01:19well I
01:01:20um
01:01:20yeah
01:01:20it's
01:01:21it's um
01:01:23um
01:01:24yeah
01:01:24you can invoice me
01:01:26for the uh
01:01:26therapy
01:01:28later
01:01:30the vulnerability doctor
01:01:31Mike thank you
01:01:33thank you
01:01:35that's all from us
01:01:36for this evening
01:01:37thank you very much
01:01:37for watching
01:01:43so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:54so
01:01:55so
01:01:57so
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