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00:06With the story on TV, more people know about us, you wonder, like, what's the limit of that?
00:13But I still wasn't worried at this point.
00:19I had agreed to be filmed in a Canadian hospital.
00:23Why did I agree to do that?
00:27I don't know.
00:31Our story airs, and then we got this email that changed everything.
00:39The email was from a family member who recognized the boys on TV in California.
00:45She said, I'm their mom.
00:47I don't know where they are.
00:49They're my missing children.
00:51I'm sure these are my children.
00:53I've seen what they look like.
00:54These are my boys.
00:55But this story attracted a lot of attention.
00:57It could be anybody calling.
00:59We didn't know for sure that they were the actual parents.
01:02And I'm just like, okay, well, we've got to confront them.
01:06We picked up Tammy because Tammy had so much invested in these guys.
01:13Oh, my God.
01:14I can't believe this.
01:15Poor Tom and Will.
01:16Jesus, Murphy.
01:17Why didn't they let us know?
01:19I was talking to the mom, and I handed my phone to Tammy, and we were just going to film
01:24it all.
01:24Hi, it's Tammy.
01:26How are you doing?
01:28Did you see pictures?
01:31So you know it's them for sure?
01:35That's him.
01:36That's what he was telling me.
01:37I had a conversation with...
01:41This is your children.
01:42They don't...
01:43They do.
01:43They do.
01:44They have the opposite...
01:45Oh, my God.
01:56She's totally describing it.
02:06It's her.
02:08Mom says, well, here's how you'll know for sure they're my boys.
02:13Will has a scar in his abdomen.
02:15I'm going to look for the scar.
02:16I'm going to look for the scar.
02:18Okay.
02:19Is your husband going to stay there?
02:21Tell him to take the day off work.
02:24Okay.
02:24Bye.
02:25Oh, it's freaking totally them.
02:29You guys.
02:31Okay.
02:31Where is the front?
02:35Oh, sure.
02:35Where did I go?
02:39No, you have to let me in here.
02:41Where are you going?
02:42It's me.
02:43You can't.
02:43You can't not let me in.
02:45Just wait.
02:45Okay.
02:48Where are they?
02:49You know, now you just need to calm down.
02:51Because in this state...
02:53Tammy was quite upset.
02:55And they just said, no, you can't come in right now.
02:58Once that was a dead end, we said, okay, we have to go see Tom.
03:02So we went driving to the hostel where Tom was staying.
03:05And I remember thinking, could he be dangerous?
03:08Like, we don't know anything about this guy other than the fact that he's just spun this
03:12huge lie for months and months and months.
03:15Hey.
03:16How are you doing, Tom?
03:18Smart of the follow-up?
03:20Yeah.
03:20Exactly, the follow-up.
03:21So I remember thinking, let's get him in the car.
03:25All the time, I've come to you and I've said, listen, I think, is this your mom?
03:28Is this your dad?
03:29Could this be you?
03:30Could this be you?
03:31And if I, if you, in your head, if I ever got any of them right, would you just take
03:35off?
03:38Well, you wouldn't because your parents.
03:39Why would I?
03:40Right, exactly.
03:42Let's just go to the parking lot of the RCMP.
03:45Be near there when this happens.
03:49A mother came to us.
03:50She says she has a son named Kyle and another nun's son named Rowan.
03:55We're living in California and who left about a year ago.
04:00Are you Kyle?
04:03I told you everything that I said about myself.
04:09I have nothing else to add to that.
04:13Okay, answer this question.
04:14Does Will have a scar on his abdomen from his spleen?
04:18Uh, what, spleen removed?
04:20He has a scar there, yeah.
04:31Do you want to talk to her?
04:33This woman?
04:35Sure.
04:36Okay.
04:41Listen, I have Tom here, Kyle, and he said he'd like to talk to you.
04:47Hello?
04:49Hi.
04:52Who is this?
04:57Oh.
05:00I'm okay.
05:03Thank you, though, for worrying about me.
05:08Yeah, she wants to talk to you.
05:12Bye.
05:12I love you, too.
05:16I heard that.
05:20That's when we knew.
05:21Like, that's when we knew that was his mom.
05:23We knew what was true.
05:25I remember just everything kind of coming on loose.
05:29Like, wait, this is a normal mom and dad?
05:31This is, they live in California?
05:33Like, that was really hard and really hard to take.
05:37And, um, yeah, that was, I started spinning at that point.
05:42This is all lies.
05:43Like, the whole thing was a big lie.
05:50Tom withdrew, for sure.
05:52He was really quiet.
05:54All the stuff we would have talked about, our whole relationship as a journalist and someone
05:59you're spending time with, was all based on a lie.
06:04It just raised more questions.
06:08But now that we knew they were capable of a lie this big, we just didn't know what else
06:13they could be capable of.
06:18I remember thinking, I'm just gonna, like, you know, not completely let my guard down
06:23here.
06:24Could you just say, my name is Tom Green?
06:27My name is Tom Green.
06:29And then could you just say, my name, we're just gonna try it, but, like, my name isn't
06:33Tom Green.
06:33My real name is Kyle Horn.
06:35Put a little pause in between.
06:37My real name is not Tom Green.
06:40My name is Kyle Horn.
06:43Is that right?
06:44There's, like, a little space in between, but just similarly.
06:47My name is not Will Green.
06:50It's Rowan Horn.
06:54My real name is Rowan Horn.
06:56See how many different ways I can say it?
06:58My real name is Kyle Horn.
07:00Sorry, I messed up that time.
07:01There is, like, wanting to merge those two worlds.
07:05You know, you want to live back in society, but you don't want these people who assume
07:11authority over it.
07:12Will Green's just a character.
07:14Just a survival act.
07:17That's the weird thing about acting.
07:20It's because you start to realize it is acting a bit.
07:22When you say things in a candid way.
07:24Because I really am Rowan Horn.
07:26Right?
07:28I do believe I'm Rowan Horn.
07:36But it's just a name.
07:39But it's just a name.
08:02There were various feelings running through the community when the truth about the brothers
08:08became known.
08:09The skeptics, of course, said, yeah, we knew something was up all along.
08:12A lot of people had suspicions about if the story was true or not.
08:18And now a lot of people are like, oh, well, I guess it figures that that had to happen that
08:22way.
08:22They came up here and lied to us.
08:25They can go right back.
08:25Were you surprised that people believed the story?
08:29You know, if you kind of go into details and stuff and make it a little strange, it's more believable
08:40to people.
08:49I was totally betrayed, but I was felt only betrayed by Kyle.
08:57Like, why would you do that?
09:00There was no emotion.
09:02Just numb.
09:03He was just like numb to everything.
09:10And he didn't seem like it mattered.
09:13It was upsetting because he was just like, you're the one who chose to help us.
09:17We didn't ask you.
09:19You came to us.
09:19And that is true.
09:21Kind of put mud in my face.
09:26Do you have any remorse for what you've put them through?
09:33No.
09:36Not for Tammy?
09:42Tammy was a great person.
09:44You know, that was her character.
09:45And she was out to help people.
09:47And she did.
09:48I mean, what she did was not wrong.
09:51What's wrong is the fact that they lied to her.
09:53More than anything, you're wondering, wow, what's really going on here?
09:59This is more gear than the TV station that interviewed us.
10:09Should we be closer to each other?
10:11Yeah.
10:12As much as you can't.
10:14Can't get too much closer.
10:15Look at all this space.
10:19I don't know why you can't get closer.
10:23I called the news station and said, that's my kid on TV.
10:27And it's not a comfortable position to be in, but you find that's where you are.
10:32That's them.
10:33Oh my gosh, there's Kyle.
10:35It's so good just to see him.
10:37We wanted to keep following the story as far as we could.
10:40So we talked to the parents and meet the sister.
10:43And we got a tour of their house in California.
10:47Well, this is where we live.
10:48This is where Kyle and Rowan grew up.
10:50This is our living room.
10:51This is our computer.
10:54It was like postcard suburbia.
10:57As normal as normal could get.
10:59This was Kyle's room.
11:00Kyle and Rowan showed a room.
11:02It looks a lot different than when they were here.
11:05It seemed to everybody this was a pretty normal family.
11:08Went to school, went to church, you know.
11:11We had a really good upbringing.
11:13We had, you know, it was very normal.
11:17So I don't understand what exactly happened.
11:22Why did they run away?
11:23You think they're running away from something horrible.
11:32Tom had an, uh, Tom.
11:36Kyle.
11:37Kyle, thank you.
11:38Kyle, I think, had some mental health issues that his mom told us about.
11:42Some of his ideas became so extreme.
11:45Like, like what?
11:46Can you tell us?
11:47I don't know.
11:48Dare we incriminate him?
11:51Kyle's the sweetest kid ever.
11:54But we saw some of his writing that said he thought it was a good idea to blow up credit
12:01card buildings and police cars.
12:05So I told my mom, and she's like, yeah, this is concerning, and we should tell the authorities.
12:12And they came out and talked to him and come out ten minutes later and say, we talked to your
12:19son and we decided he's not a threat.
12:21And he had no intention of following through on that or something, and that was the end of that.
12:30As a teenager, Kyle disappeared into his bedroom and got lost in his computer.
12:37He spent too much of his life being reclusive, and so after he finished high school, he chose not to
12:42work.
12:43He didn't believe in working.
12:46We felt that it was best for him to realize that people make their way in this world by working.
12:52So basically we kicked him out, and that was the last we heard of him.
12:57I guess there's really only one question to ask you, and that's why.
13:04Well, I had to protect myself and my brother.
13:14We grew up in Roseville, and it's probably one of the best places in the world to actually live, in
13:21terms of safety.
13:25My dad was a claims adjuster, and my mom was working in a movie theater.
13:31We were very middle class, very comfortable.
13:36Rowan was our baby of the family.
13:39He was always very sweet and very funny.
13:43With the other kids, I remember having rules.
13:45If you do this, call someone a name, this is what's going to happen.
13:48If you hit someone, this is what's going to happen.
13:50But by the time Rowan rolled along, I think I was just tired of all these rules and consequences.
13:57My parents were very lenient with me and just allowed me to do my own thing.
14:02They were very much more open-minded.
14:04On the wild card line, you're on the air. Good morning.
14:07They had a more intelligent perspective.
14:10The conspiratorialists think that NASA is hiding all of this.
14:15Believe me, this is scary material.
14:17We would listen to our bell every night.
14:19It was a conspiracy radio show that portrays and paints a version of reality where, like, there's a lot more
14:25to fear from, like, your government, for instance, or people in high power.
14:29Like, they're conniving, being evil.
14:31Growing up, I heard all sorts of weird conspiracies, you know?
14:35Things that, like, if they're true, that'd be really crazy, you know?
14:38Secret society.
14:39Not to trust the medical profession because the drugs are harming you.
14:43Dangers of vaccines.
14:45The antibodies in the body don't help, but makes it worse.
14:49Why don't we put fluoride in the water?
14:51It costs a lot of money to do that.
14:53There's a whole out-there fringe group who think the Earth is flat.
14:58I'm pretty much in that camp.
15:00The authorities, they don't want people to see what's really there.
15:12When I was nine years old, on Thanksgiving Day, I was riding a bike, and I lost my balance.
15:23And then, before I know it, I tipped over, and the bicycle handlebar went right into my gut.
15:30I, like, hobbled back to my house.
15:32I had extreme pain.
15:33So then I get to my house, and I just sprawl out on the floor.
15:37And we're trying to do Thanksgiving, and he's just laying there, and he's not feeling better and not feeling better.
15:43I call 911, and I'm saying, what if he's got internal injuries and I don't even know it?
15:48And they're like, yeah, we're going to get an ambulance over here.
15:58And so we go to the hospital, and they're like, we're going to have to do an emergency operation.
16:05And the nurses are talking about, okay, we're going to coat this tube we have to put down your throat,
16:10and you might be allergic to these chemicals.
16:14I'm thinking, I could die, and maybe I'll never wake up.
16:27I wake up, and then the doctors, they say, you know, we tried to save your spleen.
16:32We tried to sew it up, but we realized we couldn't, and then we had to take it out.
16:37If I had arrived at the hospital just one hour later, I would have internally bled to death.
16:44We were told that without a spleen, you're at heavy risk of catching pneumonia and dying.
16:51You need to take vaccines and these different shots, like, for the rest of your life.
16:55We believe that there's mercury in them, and then the autism rates are going way up.
17:00And I just opted out of that.
17:03That's how anti-vaccine we've become.
17:06I was already so much against mainstream systems that I had already decided, no, I'm not going to be taking
17:14shots.
17:15There's no way.
17:17When you have an organ removed from you, you feel like you're not ever fully safe.
17:24It just made me start thinking a lot more about death and how close I had come to it.
17:31And I think that's when, like, I really started to just be hyper-obsessed with health.
17:38And then we got the internet.
17:43I did a lot of internet research.
17:47Going to a lot of forums, touting, like, fruitarianism and veganism.
17:52And I started juicing all these vegetables, natural immunity boosters, herbs.
17:58And then he stops eating, like, nuts and seeds.
18:01He's eating a lot of fruit.
18:03I was frustrated.
18:05I thought he was too fanatical.
18:07Like, what, you can't eat my homemade spaghetti sauce because I added salt?
18:11But there was no talking him out of it.
18:13I started to lose the weight maybe around, like, 13, 14.
18:17And then by the time I was 16, it was, like, 114 pounds.
18:23And then that's when my mom was like, whoa.
18:25I brought it to the doctor's attention.
18:27Isn't our son a bit on the thin side?
18:29Because his elbows and his knees protruded too much for his skin.
18:33And they said, oh, yeah, you're right.
18:36And so we would have to weigh him many times and then report to the doctors how his weight was
18:43doing.
18:45But when I said, time to get on the scale, he says, just a minute, mom.
18:49And he would go to his room and put on a bulky outfit and hide ankle weights under his clothes.
18:55You know, I figured out what was going on.
18:58I was reading on the internet.
19:00It's part of the detoxification process.
19:02They're saying the fat needs to be stripped off your body because that's where the toxins are.
19:06But eventually your body will hold fat again and be healthy.
19:10The doctors, they all decided he, you know, had some kind of eating disorder and he was mentally ill.
19:16And they were trying to treat him as though he were anorexic.
19:19Based on what I knew at the time of anorexia, it would have been hard for me to say he
19:23was anorexic.
19:25He was in control.
19:27It's not like I was saying, I just, I need to lose weight, everyone.
19:30I'm too fat.
19:31I was like, no, I just want to be healthy.
19:33I have an immune system compromised.
19:35I need to do something different than normal people.
19:38And so fruitarianism was kind of just my go-to, the best knowledge I had at the time.
19:44We did our best to try to get him to eat more and take him to psychologist visits, psychiatrist visits.
19:52The only part we drew the line at following all their suggestions was when they said, we want you to
19:59have him institutionalized.
20:01And I said, but then he won't have access to the healthy food and then he'll lose even more weight.
20:08They said, that's okay.
20:10We'll just let him get so skinny that we could tube him.
20:13And I'm like, this does not sound like a good solution for him.
20:17And they said, that's okay.
20:18We'll just call the Child Protective Service.
20:22They show up at our door with the police and a warrant to take him away.
20:27And I'm like, but why?
20:29Well, do what you say.
20:30Why are you doing this?
20:31You know, and while we're having this talk, Rowan's in the kitchen trying to peel an orange for breakfast.
20:37I was standing there by the fireplace and I had the perfect view to see back where Rowan was in
20:44the kitchen.
20:45And he was looking at me like, were they here for me?
20:50And I gave him a nod like, yeah.
20:53And he left out the back door.
21:01Something took over.
21:02I was like, we got to get out of here.
21:04We're in death zone.
21:06This is battle zone, military, war zone.
21:09They're going to kill me.
21:12That night, I knocked on my brother's window.
21:16Rowan was very serious about not wanting to be taken against his will.
21:21Put in a hospital, put a tube down his throat, and put this garbage that they would have put into
21:26him.
21:28You know, I sneak out at 1 or 2 in the morning, bringing him food.
21:32And my parents, they were just looking for him.
21:36Rowan!
21:37Hey, Rowan!
21:39We want to make sure you're okay!
21:40I was still afraid my parents would turn me in at that point, because I didn't have enough trust that
21:44my parents wouldn't.
21:46At some point, you don't, you even don't trust your own parents.
21:51I had already been telling my parents that I was going to go to Canada, like before any of this
21:56happened.
21:56So when I did decide, oh, I'm going to Canada, it didn't seem all that suspicious to people.
22:02He had always talked about how it might be fun to go to Canada.
22:05That's why we weren't immediately suspicious.
22:11Rowan and I got a ride just to Washington, and from there, we hitchhiked and hiked.
22:19When I got to the border, I remember just being really nervous as I'm going, like, how is this even
22:25going to work?
22:30I was not sure if you'll be able to cross that border without them trying to question you or ask
22:37for your ID.
22:39The whole thing could have just stopped right there, because it was obvious.
22:42Like, anyone could have seen, like, there's just two hiker people, like, with huge backpacks, just literally walking past all
22:48the cars.
22:52But for whatever reason,
22:57we literally just walked right across, and no one stopped us.
23:11I don't remember meeting really anyone until we got up to Vernon.
23:19Naturally, that's when we needed to come up with a story.
23:24Why we were not able to go back home?
23:26Why we wouldn't ever go back home and show you where we live?
23:31So many of the details that we gave were just the truth.
23:36For instance, we used our real birth years.
23:40We used our real birth months.
23:42The story we created was all about survival.
23:47To be threatened with being put into a facility and force-fed.
23:51It feels like someone's threatening your life.
23:57When a push comes down to shove, what would you do for your survival?
24:01I didn't think he would die.
24:04I think it's just a matter of respect for your freedom.
24:12But at the same time,
24:14Rowan didn't really seem to have much long-term plans.
24:21We discussed, like,
24:23well, what does that look like for you?
24:25Where is this going for you?
24:27The people of Vernon give us a certain amount of money for food, too, every month.
24:34But winter's coming.
24:36How long is Rowan going to want to do this?
24:38What's really going to happen here?
24:39I'd have much rather had a brother that did what Kyle did
24:43than a brother that would have turned me in.
24:45Kyle did the best thing he could have done there for me.
24:50But some part of my psychology wanted the whole thing to end.
24:55Because I was thinking about, like, what am I missing in school?
24:57How long is this going to go on?
25:00When am I going to get to see my parents?
25:02How long is this going to get to see my parents again?
25:07Obviously, the parents wanted to come and needed to come.
25:10So we said, we'll bring you to Vernon.
25:14You talk to your sons yet?
25:16Are you mad at them?
25:17No, I'm not mad at them at all.
25:19Americans and Canadians are different when it comes to television.
25:22They just said yes right away.
25:24I don't know that a Canadian family would have agreed to something like that so quickly,
25:26but they were like, sure.
25:28Hi, Kyle.
25:29Hi.
25:32How are you?
25:33Good.
25:34So good to see you.
25:36Oh, you look the same.
25:39There was this kind of weirdly awkward reunion in a parking lot.
25:43They were like, oh my God, I'm so glad you're safe.
25:45And what the hell were you thinking?
25:47I'm sure inside they were seething.
25:50Why did you stop calling us in December?
25:53Uh, just, I don't know.
25:56So, just a phone call would have helped, you know?
25:59I remember thinking, they weren't as surprised as you think they might have been.
26:04You know, it was kind of like they were expecting their boys to have done, you know, something.
26:18When Kyle went to Canada, the plan was he's supposed to call me and let me know how he's doing
26:23in Canada,
26:24not how he and Rowan are doing, because I didn't know about Rowan.
26:31Meanwhile, I'm out looking for him in construction sites.
26:36We found a cantaloupe brine or an avocado shell, and we were like, oh, he was here.
26:45But I do wonder if there was a part of me that didn't want them to be found.
26:52Maybe if Kyle's taking care of him in Canada, maybe that's even a good solution.
27:02At what point do you intervene?
27:06At what point do you just basically say, okay, you don't get freedom anymore.
27:13We're going to take it away, because we love you.
27:18I met the parents.
27:20I mean, his mom was really nice, and his dad was, you know, quiet and humble, but was just crying.
27:26And he was crying in the hospital a lot.
27:30All I remember when we entered the hospital is seeing Rowan in his emaciated state, and I was shocked.
27:38I gushed at that time, just seeing him, yeah.
27:42It was like, oh, my gosh, you're so skinny, so thin, so beef-like, like someone out of a concentration
27:48camp.
27:48Oh, my gosh.
27:49And at the same time, relieving to get to be back with your boys.
27:55Everything is good right now.
27:58Rowan is making progress.
28:03I think there needs to be the acknowledgement that the brothers were experiencing a mental health crisis.
28:09Were they lying to manipulate, or were they lying out of fear because they didn't know how to access the
28:16help that they truly needed?
28:20I first heard about orthorexia from the doctor in Canada, and he explained what it was.
28:26I'm like, oh, yeah, that actually, that actually sounds like something he has.
28:31Orthorexic has fear of unhealthy food.
28:36As long as you're convinced that it's healthy for your body, you can eat it.
28:41I gained, like, 30 pounds in the Canadian hospital.
28:45I was doing well.
28:45I was on a process of, you know, continuing gaining weight.
28:48He was getting help for his eating disorder, and I remember being really happy about that and feeling like things
28:54were positive and he was back on track.
28:56Put him, I think, back on the right path in a respectable way.
29:03Kyle was trying hard to convince Rowan to eat more.
29:07Kyle has been portrayed villainous in this.
29:09I've seen people's comments, like, saying bad things about Kyle for taking Rowan away to Canada and letting him get
29:17thin or something.
29:18But he's just trying to heroically rescue his brother.
29:28Once the story hit the international stage, a warrant was issued for arrest and deportation orders were issued, and they
29:36disappeared as quickly as they came.
29:42They expedited Kyle's return to the United States with his father and with Rowan.
29:48They had arranged a flight direct to Sacramento, so I transported him to Kelowna Airport.
29:55And the one thing that struck me is, as he was walking up the stairs into this private air ambulance
30:01that had been chartered just for him, like, he never knew as much as he even turned back or gave
30:07a wave or said, thank Tammy for what she did, or I appreciate what the hospital did for me, anything
30:12like that.
30:13He just got on the plane, never looked back.
30:22For them, at this point, what happened in Vernon in 2003 is probably just a footnote compared to what they're
30:29into now.
30:39Look at that.
30:41Awesome.
30:46Okay.
30:51I know that might seem like a lot of cream, but coconut cream is really good for you.
30:56Like, that's actually one of the things I learned about health is that you actually need lots of fat.
31:01There's, like, not enough fat and fruit.
31:03The medical bills were roughly about $50,000 to $60,000.
31:07We filed for bankruptcy because of issues that Rowan was having with his dental work.
31:14Like, there's some honey in there.
31:16The acid of the fruit literally dissolved holes in my teeth.
31:20Like, it was bad.
31:22Boom.
31:27After they put him back in our care, Rowan's life became unusual for many years.
31:36When I got back, I never even graduated high school.
31:41I don't feel like having a high school diploma would probably help me that much.
32:10Hello.
32:12It's your friendly neighborhood eternal life fan.
32:15I want to talk about in this video, I want to talk about how you should be striving for your
32:22eternal life. What you do every day could really determine whether or not you get to live forever.
32:28They feel like a lot of people, they get into a normal job. They're not passionate about it
32:33and it kills them. They're just born into that mindset. Oh, you have to die. Oh, you have to
32:41get old. It's brainwashing. I don't want your cemetery. I don't want your normal life. I need
32:50to create a new world. That's better. I want to be like Greta Thunberg. I want to be the
32:58Greta Thunberg of eternal life. Hello, eternal life fans. It's Rowan from the eternal life
33:03fan club. I want an eternity of pleasure, of joy for anti-aging purposes. Doctors know nothing.
33:10What you can do to inhale silver is you want to get a nebulizer. Definitely consider
33:15an eye some therapy. I'm at a cemetery. I've recently surpassed 3,000 subscribers.
33:23I'm very proud of Rowan that he does what he's passionate about. He's really obsessed with not
33:31dying and so he spends his whole life, you know, making videos about it.
33:37Yeah, that camera is the best investment I ever made. And the mic and all of that. And the best
33:44investment you guys ever made. They bought it for me. I do live streams and meet online with these
33:50like Google Hangouts and just talk about each other's strategies and perspective on eternal life.
33:55I don't want my dog to die, let alone watch everyone who's ever going to die, die.
34:01I had spent so many years contributing all these wonderful videos. He never got like any ad money like from
34:08YouTube at all.
34:13We went to go live with grandkids. And Kyle finally gets a job and starts living in Arizona and Rowan's
34:22on his own living in a warehouse.
34:27Eventually, they were raising the rent to double. And so Rowan found himself homeless.
34:35lf
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34:41lf
34:43lf
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34:54lf
35:12I just wanted him to go back and be with Kyle.
35:17What kind of intervention do you do for people?
35:19Do you let them, you know, be homeless or do you just keep paying for them, you know?
35:28Rowan's not one of these people who is homeless by choice.
35:37I feel like society makes it hard.
35:41It should just be easier to, like, have a place for yourself.
35:44And I feel just, in a sense, dysfunctional.
35:49And so there's a lot of ways I haven't fully made myself a part of society.
36:00I feel like I'm still in the forest.
36:06I can't see a quantum shift in their thinking since all this happened.
36:12I don't think that they left California as boys and returned as men.
36:19I think they left California as boys and basically returned as boys.
36:39In the story of Neverland, Peter Pan, he goes to the normal world and he starts to age.
36:45And he literally, doesn't he die?
36:47He literally dies.
36:50He chose to go to normal society and die.
36:55It doesn't get more stupider than that.
37:03I would never try to say, well, why do you want to live forever?
37:06You know, don't, you shouldn't want that.
37:08I would never do that.
37:10I'm looking for a place that's a house with a shower.
37:15That's a good start.
37:17I feel like just my life's been a little lonely.
37:22And, um, just needs more relationships.
37:38It's just, um, um, just thinking about how good the future could be.
37:47Like, in the future, if you're living forever, you could eventually get everything you ever wanted.
38:04I've got the water, now I won't be littering.
38:15So what do you want for dinner tonight?
38:20Maybe some steamed vegetables.
38:22What do you want?
38:24Rowan is the person I am closest to because we talk about very deep things that interest him and interest
38:32me.
38:32And I, I don't have that kind of relationship with anyone else like I do with Rowan.
38:44Me and Kyle, our relationship was so bonded on going through a traumatic experience together.
38:50I have to take care of him almost like a parent, right?
38:54But I was never bothered by that, by Rowan looking up to me or trusting me.
39:01And I definitely won't allow anything to happen to him.
39:10What happened to Vernon is a drop in the bucket to what we as society wrestle with today,
39:17bombarded by social media and conspiracy theories and my version of the truth and your version of the truth.
39:22And exactly what is the truth?
39:26Back then, we stuck by the boys when the story wasn't making sense.
39:33Today, would we do that?
39:37I was angry, I was upset, I was embarrassed, mortified, you know,
39:42because I rallied all these people together, you know, to save these boys.
39:50And Tammy really did believe the story and felt, you know, hurt later.
39:57From personal experience, I'd say that that's actually a helpful change.
40:01It opens you up to possibilities and then you realize,
40:05okay, I, I, I can't believe any of this stuff I was told.
40:09And it completely changes you.
40:10Okay, Tom, let's see what it tastes like.
40:13I wish I could, like, you know, be in Tammy's life in a non-acting way.
40:18I wish I didn't have to lie to her.
40:21You know what I mean?
40:22In another world, I wouldn't have to lie to her.
40:24It's not my job to tell you the truth.
40:28It was definitely his job to tell the truth.
40:30He was, he was telling his story and it was a lie
40:33and it was making people react in a certain way and do things for him.
40:38I understand they were telling it for a reason, but it's still wrong.
40:44Kyle took the fall for everything at the end, even my anger.
40:50But so much more to blame, including the U.S. medical system
40:55that had Rowan misdiagnosed.
40:59They needed help and I helped them and I think we all want to help people, right?
41:04And some people go out of their way more than others.
41:08Tammy was the one who proactively worked and worked at work
41:12in making sure that he got institutionalized before he starved himself to death.
41:17I'm so grateful to Tammy.
41:19Thank you, Tammy, so much.
41:22You are a hero.
41:23You saved our son's life.
41:30What finally makes a man, I think it's makes a man when he
41:34knows and discovers truth
41:35and when he's got the common sense to know right from wrong.
41:38And I don't think these two are there yet.
41:41They may never be.
41:51The great thing about story doesn't so much matter if it's true.
41:55It matters how it affects people.
41:57And it matters how it affects you.
42:01Makes you think, well, what's possible?
42:03Oh my gosh, this is Sky Rider.
42:04They can afford to eat hamburgers and all that.
42:06And I'm a fruitarian at the time.
42:08And that was terrifying.
42:09Just because it's a story doesn't mean it has to be an imaginary fiction.
42:13Get up here.
42:15We could make that reality.
42:20Truth, it's secondary to survival.
42:23It still feels that way.
42:25bloodthewman
42:40I'm sorry for that.
42:43Cheers.
42:43Cheers.
42:43Cheers.
42:44Cheers.
42:45Cheers.
42:47Cheers.
42:49Cheers.
42:49Cheers.
42:50Cheers.
43:19Transcription by CastingWords
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