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00:02From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news.
00:09This is The Daily Show with your host, Jordan Klepper.
00:26Welcome to The Daily Show. I'm Jordan Klepper. We've got so much to talk about tonight.
00:30Trump wants to grab Cuba by the Cohibas, free speech updates its terms and conditions,
00:36and MAGA gets into a big fight over small penises.
00:39So, let's get into our ongoing coverage of the war in Iran.
00:46Nothing bad can happen. It can only good happen.
00:51Now, according to public polling, the war in Iran has less support at its outset than any previous American war.
00:58And wars are almost always popular in the beginning. They're kind of like Apple TV shows.
01:06People are like, I don't know what's going on here, but for some reason, I'm on board.
01:11But President Trump doesn't need popular support or congressional consent to declare war,
01:18because he's got a high-profile fan on his side.
01:21President Trump made news when he suggested a former president he's been speaking with wishes he had done to Iran
01:27what Trump has done.
01:28I spoke to one of the former presidents, who I actually like, and he said, I wish I did what
01:33you did.
01:34Okay.
01:38First of all, why is the president holding onto the desk like it's a safety bar and a Six Flags
01:43roller coaster?
01:46No, come into the Oval Office. I'll be right with you. Just, uh, let my French tips dry, you know?
01:52No biggie.
01:55But the big question is, which former president gave Trump props for the war in Iran?
02:02Come on, Trump! Spill the beans!
02:04I just want to ask you about something very interesting that you said twice today.
02:07That you talked to another former president about the Iran strikes.
02:11I did.
02:11Was it George W. Bush?
02:13No.
02:13Was it Bill Clinton?
02:15I don't want to say.
02:18Oh, oh.
02:20I think you said plenty, Mr. Trump.
02:24I don't want to give away who it is.
02:26All I can say is that I was recently helping him prep for his Epstein Island deposition.
02:30That's all.
02:32By the way, I love how Peter Doocy is trying to play guess who with our toddler president.
02:39Is he wearing glasses?
02:42Is he bald?
02:43If he was doing karaoke, would he be allowed to sing all the words in Gold Digger?
02:52No.
02:54There's also another possibility, and this may come as a shock, which is that maybe, just
02:59possibly, Trump pulled the whole thing out of his ass.
03:03...aides to each of the four living former presidents all deny they have had any such
03:08conversations with President Trump.
03:10Yes.
03:12The living former presidents denied talking to Trump.
03:17Trump never said living.
03:21What's more likely, that Bill Clinton thinks starting a half-baked war in the Middle East
03:25was a good idea, or that Trump spent 20 minutes talking to a portrait of Grover Cleveland?
03:33Regardless of who he's been talking to about it, I'm just glad the president has his mind
03:37100% completely focused on this daunting situation with Iran.
03:41I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of taking Cuba.
03:48No!
03:49No!
03:50No new wars until you finish the war we just got you!
03:55This is not the time to be taking Cuba.
03:58By the way, what do you mean by taking Cuba?
04:02Taking Cuba.
04:03Taking Cuba in some form, yeah.
04:05Taking Cuba.
04:06I mean, whether I free it, take it, I think I can do anything I want with it.
04:11You want to know the truth?
04:14You can do anything you want with it?
04:17I don't know what's worse, that he's talking like a supervillain or that he sounds so bored
04:22about it.
04:23You should be cackling with lightning in the background when you say shit like that.
04:27Why are you sounding like Lexapro Luther over here?
04:32The world is mine, Superman, I guess.
04:34Whatever.
04:35Whatever.
04:36But while Trump seems unengaged, some people in his administration are getting worked up.
04:41Breaking news.
04:42The head of the National Counterterrorism Center, Joe Kent, announced just hours ago that he
04:48is resigning immediately over the war in Iran.
04:51Whoa!
04:53I mean, that would be even more damning if this guy wasn't an unqualified crackpot, but
04:59it still has to shake up a president when one of your appointees resigns over your war.
05:04I read his statement.
05:06I always thought he was a nice guy, but I always thought he was weak on security.
05:10Very weak on security.
05:13You appointed him!
05:17You know what?
05:18I guess that tracks.
05:19Everyone knows the qualifications for running the National Counterterrorism Center go, nice
05:25guy, brings muffins to the morning meeting, and then all the way down the list, good on
05:30security.
05:32But this split is dividing the entire MAGA movement right now.
05:35There's the anti-war side, with people like Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, and Megyn Kelly.
05:40And there's the pro-war side, with Sean Hannity, Lindsey Graham, and Mark Levin.
05:44And as you can imagine, the quality of an internal MAGA debate is highly intellectual.
05:49On the X platform, Mark Levin posted, poor Megyn Kelly, an emotionally unhinged, lewd, and petulant
05:57wreck.
05:58She's completely revealed and destroyed herself.
06:00In response, Megyn Kelly posted, micropenis Mark thinks he has the monopoly on lewd.
06:06He doesn't like it when women like me fight back because of his micropenis.
06:23Feels like I'm bad at the Oxford Debate Club.
06:27Be it resolved, that dick be tiny.
06:30Now, it's not a good look for President Trump to have his followers fighting so publicly over
06:35their micropenises.
06:36Donnie, why don't you step in and heal the divide?
06:39President Trump defended Mark Levin, posting that he is somewhat under siege by other people
06:45with far less intellect, capability, and love for our country.
06:48Mark is tough, strong, and brilliant.
06:51In response, Megyn Kelly posted that Mark Levin went running to daddy about his micropenis.
06:57Damn it, Megyn!
06:58You bitch!
07:00Oh!
07:05Now, it's obviously not fair to accuse Mark Levin of running to daddy about his micropenis.
07:11Although I imagine having a micropenis makes the running a lot easier.
07:18Totally unrelated, but in high school, I was the slowest guy in gym class.
07:32By the way, did you notice that at no point did Trump deny the micropenis allegations?
07:39Not exactly the full-throated defense you want.
07:42He has a micropenis!
07:43Hey!
07:44He's a nice man!
07:48Also, I'm sorry, are we at war?
07:50You're-you're tweeting about your buddy's micropenis.
07:53Was FDR taking time out of his fireside chats to be like,
07:56Anyway, that's how D-Day went.
07:58Now, if I may say a few words about whether my friend Zachary has a chode.
08:04Please, please.
08:07Isn't there anybody who can calm the situation?
08:11Marjorie Taylor Greene, you're a-
08:13You're a respected member of MAGA.
08:16Perhaps you can bring some intellectual substance to this debate.
08:19Former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene posted,
08:22I wholeheartedly support Megyn Kelly telling the world that Mark Levin has a micropenis.
08:27Oh, Marjorie, come on!
08:30Oh, he's...
08:32Come on!
08:38With all this talk about micropenises,
08:41we're losing sight of the real reason we attacked Iran,
08:44which is...
08:46shit.
08:49You know what?
08:50Now that I think about it,
08:51we never got an answer to that, actually.
08:54And-and believe me,
08:55I've been searching for one harder than Mark Levin's urologist,
08:58you know?
08:59Boom!
09:01Sorry.
09:02Okay.
09:03Sorry, Mark, I had to get in one last small one.
09:06Just like you!
09:06Boom!
09:08Sorry.
09:10Okay, look,
09:11can conservatives please just stay focused on the actual war?
09:15There's a new Ayatollah in power who is dead set on revenge.
09:19You should be talking about him,
09:20not gossiping about men's penises.
09:22The New York Post is reporting
09:24that the president was just briefed about the new Ayatollah.
09:28Sources are saying Ayatollah Jr. might be gay.
09:35You gotta love that banner.
09:37New Ayatollah is probably gay.
09:42Give it up for the fourth estate, everyone.
09:45Wow.
09:45Bravo.
09:47Yes.
09:49Love the media,
09:50who apparently are now reporting gossip
09:52like they're high school mean girls.
09:54This just in from the CIA.
09:56Uh, the new Ayatollah got his period in the driver's ed car.
10:02Fine, fine.
10:03I guess we're doing this.
10:04Media establishment.
10:05Let's...
10:06Let's hear that hot, hot goss.
10:09Ayatollah Jr. might be gay
10:11and has been making aggressive sexual advances
10:15on his male caretakers
10:16while hopped up on meds.
10:19His father reportedly thought
10:21he was too gay
10:22to be Iran's supreme leader.
10:27Too gay?
10:29I like the implication
10:31that the supreme leader of Iran
10:33should be a little gay.
10:37He should be like,
10:38Death to America!
10:40Except Lady Gaga.
10:42So that's basically
10:44where we're at right now.
10:45This country has launched itself
10:46into a devastating regional war
10:48in the Middle East.
10:49The president is focused on taking Cuba.
10:51His movement is split amongst themselves
10:53and the media is turning into TMZ.
10:56I mean, the quality of our discourse
10:58has absolutely vanished.
10:59And in these fraught times,
11:01is it too much to ask for just a little bit
11:06of thoughtfulness and dignity?
11:09If we could just have the smallest amount,
11:13it would still be bigger
11:15than Mark Levin's penis!
11:16Boom!
11:17Sorry, Mark.
11:21Sorry, Mark.
11:22Sorry.
11:23For more on the rumors
11:25about Iran's new supreme leader,
11:27let's go live to the Pentagon
11:28with Troy Iwata.
11:29Troy!
11:35Troy, what do you think
11:36about the rumors
11:37that the Ayatollah is gay?
11:38Well, Jordan,
11:39as the only gay person
11:41in the entertainment industry,
11:43I can assure you
11:44that the Ayatollah is not gay.
11:46Okay.
11:47Well, that makes sense.
11:48He's obviously queerbaiting.
11:50And I don't appreciate it.
11:52I'm sorry.
11:54Queerbaiting?
11:55Yes, yes.
11:56That's exactly what everyone
11:57in Hollywood does to a T, okay?
11:59They take a straight man,
12:01tease the idea
12:02that he might be a little...
12:03You know?
12:05And then just watch everyone
12:07get obsessed trying to figure out
12:08if he is indeed a little...
12:11It's so manipulative.
12:12But why would he even do that?
12:15The Islamic regime
12:16is very homophobic.
12:17It doesn't matter
12:18how homophobic the regime is.
12:20A good story is a good story.
12:22You know?
12:23Think about it.
12:23A closeted leader
12:24of a homophobic nation
12:26forced to lead
12:27after your father
12:28who never accepted
12:29your lifestyle
12:30is suddenly killed
12:32and now you're burdened
12:34with the responsibility
12:35to pass laws
12:36and uphold traditions
12:37that go against
12:38your true nature
12:39when all you ever wanted to do
12:41was just feel that spotlight?
12:44Wow.
12:45I mean, you're right, Troy.
12:47I feel so bad for him.
12:48He's not gay, Jordan!
12:51He's just sucking you
12:53into this fake narrative
12:54by doing what
12:55every Hollywood TV show does.
12:57It's so gross.
12:58I would only watch
12:59like half of it.
13:01Oh, my God.
13:02I mean,
13:03what if he falls in love
13:04with an Israeli general
13:05but they can only see each other
13:08across the Strait of Hormuz
13:11and all of their communication
13:12has to be nonverbal?
13:14Oh, my God.
13:15Can you imagine?
13:16That would be so sad and hot.
13:20Wait, stop, stop.
13:21No, you're getting me
13:22sucked into it now.
13:23Stop it.
13:23I'm sorry.
13:24I'm sorry.
13:24You're right.
13:24It's a very powerful technique.
13:26Why doesn't our president
13:27try queerbaiting?
13:32Donald is not going to pretend
13:34to be gay, Jordan, okay?
13:35He's pretty gay already.
13:38What are you talking about?
13:39He's married to a woman.
13:41Oh, wow.
13:42A gay man has never been married
13:43to a woman before.
13:46Totally.
13:51Wow, yeah.
13:52He's not gay.
13:52He just tore down his wife's office
13:54to build a ballroom.
13:57But how do we know
13:59he's just not queerbaiting, too?
14:02Because in order for queerbaiting to work,
14:04people need to want
14:05to have sex with you.
14:08Troy Wada, everyone.
14:10We come back.
14:11The President has a new app for you.
14:13Don't go away.
14:36Welcome back to The Daily Show.
14:39Free speech.
14:40It's the piece de resistance
14:41of our constitutional rights.
14:43It assures that I can say
14:44insufferable things
14:45like piece de resistance
14:47and the only consequence
14:49is having no friends.
14:50But lately,
14:52this piece de resistance
14:53has been under attack.
14:55President Trump and his officials
14:57are ramping up attacks
14:58on news organizations
14:59and broadcasters.
15:00President Trump baselessly
15:01claiming on Truth Social
15:02that The New York Times
15:03and The Wall Street Journal
15:04and other low-life papers
15:05and media
15:06actually want us
15:07to lose the war.
15:09Then last night,
15:10the President wrote,
15:11quote,
15:11I am so thrilled
15:12to see Brendan Carr,
15:13the Chairman of the
15:13Federal Communications Commission,
15:14looking at the licenses
15:16of some of these corrupt
15:17and highly unpatriotic
15:18news organizations.
15:20What are you doing, man?
15:21You're still going
15:22after the press?
15:23There's no more
15:24mergers left to approve.
15:27We're all just subsidiaries
15:28of one company now.
15:31Correction.
15:32One great company.
15:35Sign up for
15:36Para-Warner-Dismax-Fubu-Cock
15:38today.
15:42Now,
15:45on the bright side,
15:47at least Trump
15:47has stopped short
15:48of calling journalists
15:49criminals,
15:50because that
15:50would be a huge escalation.
15:53President Trump
15:54falsely accused outlets
15:55of coordinating
15:56with the Iranian government
15:57to spread falsehoods.
15:58Writing, quote,
15:59you can say that
16:00those media outlets
16:01that generated it
16:02should be brought up
16:03on charges for treason.
16:05I actually think
16:06it's pretty criminal
16:07because our media companies
16:10who have no credibility
16:11whatsoever,
16:12you think they could be
16:13a serious jeopardy.
16:16Accusing the media
16:17of treason?
16:18You know what?
16:19I've got something
16:19for you to read,
16:21Mr. President.
16:21It is called
16:22The Constitution
16:23of the United States
16:24of America,
16:26which is...
16:29Where is my desk
16:30Constitution?
16:31Where the...
16:31Okay.
16:33You know what?
16:34Pretend this
16:36Korean barbecue menu
16:37is the Constitution.
16:39Okay?
16:40Let me read to you
16:41from the First Amendment,
16:43sir.
16:43Uh-huh.
16:48Bulgogi rice bowl,
16:50$16.99.
16:53Kimchi extra.
16:54Does that mean
16:55anything to you?
16:57But if President Trump
16:58is trying to limit
16:59journalists' freedom
17:00of speech,
17:01it might only be
17:01a matter of time
17:02before he tries
17:03to limit ours.
17:04Luckily,
17:05there's a new service
17:06that can help.
17:08Oh, my gosh.
17:09Have you been
17:09watching the news?
17:10They're cracking down
17:11on anyone
17:11who criticizes
17:12the president.
17:13I know.
17:14I'm worried about
17:14my freedom of speech.
17:15You mean like if I say,
17:17I don't really think
17:18President Trump
17:19is doing that great
17:20of a job.
17:20Shh.
17:21You're gonna get in trouble.
17:22Not me.
17:23Because I just signed up
17:24for Free Speech Plus.
17:26What's that?
17:27It's this new service
17:28from the Trump administration.
17:29I can say anything
17:30I want about the president
17:31for just $50 a month.
17:34What a deal.
17:35Do I pay with an app?
17:36Oh, no.
17:36You just hand $50
17:37to the man standing
17:38over your shoulder.
17:40Oh, no.
17:41I only have $40.
17:43Oh, that's okay.
17:44You can just sign up
17:46for Free Speech Plus
17:47with ads.
17:47I can talk as much
17:49as I want
17:49and every 15 minutes
17:50my mouth plays a commercial.
17:52With gold at an all-time high,
17:54it's never been a better time
17:55to sell your jewelry
17:56for cold, hard cash.
17:58Whoa.
17:59That was barely noticeable.
18:00It even happens
18:01when I sleep.
18:02Cool.
18:03And here I thought
18:04just my constitutional right
18:05to free speech
18:06was enough.
18:17So with Free Speech Plus,
18:18there's no limits
18:19to what I can say?
18:20Well, there are some limits.
18:22For example,
18:23no fat jokes,
18:24no dumb jokes,
18:25nothing about his little dick
18:26or his fat ankles,
18:27nothing about demolishing
18:28the East Wing
18:29or the Nobel Peace Prize
18:30or corruption.
18:31Oh, and nothing
18:33about Epstein
18:35or his little dick.
18:36Wait, no Epstein's
18:37little dick
18:38or no Epstein
18:38and no Trump's
18:39little dick?
18:40Both.
18:42Free Speech Plus.
18:43Free speech
18:44has never been
18:44so guaranteed.
18:46Free Speech Plus
18:46does not cover
18:46black people
18:47and Muslims
18:47late night TV show hosts,
18:48gender studies teachers,
18:49really good guys
18:49and liberal college students.
18:50So what are you going
18:51to say first
18:51with Free Speech Plus?
18:53Well, I think Trump
18:55is the promo code
18:56you can use today
18:57for 25% off your MyPillow.
18:59That'll show him.
19:02Free Speech Plus.
19:03Pay what you need
19:04to say what you want.
19:07Thank you, Desi.
19:08When we come back,
19:09George Saunders
19:10will be going
19:10around the show.
19:11Don't go away.
19:21Welcome back
19:22to The Daily Show.
19:23My guest tonight
19:23is a Booker Prize-winning author
19:25whose latest novel
19:26is called Vigil.
19:27Please welcome
19:28George Saunders.
19:47George, it is...
19:49I'm humbled to have you here.
19:50Thank you for being here.
19:50I'm humbled to be here.
19:51Thank you for having me.
19:51I loved this book
19:52for the dumb folks
19:53who haven't read it yet.
19:55Tell us a little bit
19:56about what this book is about.
19:57It's basically...
19:58The outline is
20:00a stinker dies.
20:01A stinker dies.
20:02A stinker dies.
20:02There's a guy
20:03who has been really active
20:04in the climate change denial
20:06back in the Bush-Cheney era.
20:08And it's the last night
20:09of his life.
20:09Yeah.
20:10So, you know,
20:10hilarity ensues.
20:13And you empathize.
20:14You show some empathy
20:15for this oil tycoon.
20:16Yeah.
20:17Is this really the time
20:18for that, George?
20:19It's always the time.
20:20No, I mean,
20:21when you're narrating somebody
20:22from inside his head,
20:23you find out that empathy
20:24is kind of...
20:25Or maybe not empathy,
20:26but kind of a level
20:28of understanding.
20:29You know,
20:29you're talking about
20:29his childhood.
20:30And to me,
20:31the interesting thing
20:32about this book was
20:33if you're a stinker,
20:34a guy who's really
20:35done bad things,
20:36how do you narrate
20:37that to yourself?
20:38Yes.
20:38I don't think it's
20:39the Cruella de Vil
20:39school of evil
20:40where you're like,
20:41yeah, yeah, yeah,
20:41I'm evil today
20:42and I'm loving it.
20:44But there's something
20:44going on.
20:45So how does...
20:46For three years,
20:47the question was,
20:47how does a guy
20:48who's done that
20:49and he knows he's done it,
20:51so how does he
20:52speak to himself?
20:53Yeah.
20:54You know,
20:54how does he rationalize it?
20:55And so, yeah,
20:55so you're getting
20:56in the mindset
20:56of somebody who's done...
20:57Yeah.
20:58On the surface,
20:59some pretty horrible things
21:00and made some decisions.
21:01Yeah.
21:01What do you discover
21:02about putting your head
21:03in that headspace?
21:04I try not to put myself
21:05in the space of other people,
21:06in their shoes,
21:07in their headspace.
21:09I try to stay immune
21:10from that kind
21:11of empathetic response.
21:12Just hover above them.
21:14That's the best place.
21:15It's the best view.
21:15I don't know why
21:16everybody's so critical
21:17about it.
21:18Yeah.
21:19What do you discover
21:19for being in that headspace?
21:20Well, I mean,
21:21one thing,
21:21in his case,
21:22the whole thing,
21:23in the last movie,
21:24it's the last two
21:24or three hours
21:25of his life,
21:25and there's a series
21:26of ghosts
21:27who come around,
21:27as they do,
21:28and try to convince him
21:29that he's been wrong.
21:30And so it was interesting
21:32to kind of look
21:32into your own mind
21:33and say,
21:33well, how do I deny shit?
21:35You know?
21:35How do I,
21:36if I'm,
21:36or stuff,
21:37whatever.
21:39Cable, baby.
21:39It is cable.
21:41But, you know,
21:41but when you,
21:42when we've done something
21:43that we wish we hadn't done,
21:44there's actually
21:45a series of steps
21:45you go through.
21:46First is,
21:47I didn't do it.
21:48Right.
21:48Well, I did it,
21:49but I didn't mean it.
21:50Or I did it
21:51and someone made me.
21:52And finally,
21:53towards the end,
21:53you might,
21:54you might,
21:54if you're lucky,
21:55especially if it's
21:56the last night of your life,
21:57have a moment
21:58of real honesty
21:59and clarity.
22:00Well, it feels like
22:00this book is also
22:01debating the idea
22:02of you have a character,
22:03a ghost,
22:04who is there
22:05to provide comfort.
22:06You have another character,
22:07the Frenchman,
22:07who, in general,
22:08is there for accountability.
22:10Yeah.
22:11Wants,
22:12wants the,
22:12this oil tycoon
22:13to face some sort
22:14of retribution
22:15or at least guilt
22:16and understanding
22:17on their deathbed.
22:18Yeah.
22:18Like, where do you
22:19come down on that
22:20of offering,
22:21offering comfort?
22:22What does that mean to you?
22:22Well, for me,
22:23the whole book
22:23was kind of a,
22:24uh, exporting
22:25of my own mental stuff.
22:27Like, as a career.
22:27Is this for people at all?
22:29Or is this just,
22:30this is just your own therapy
22:31that you're profiting
22:32off of, George?
22:34Wow.
22:34It's a good gig
22:35if you,
22:36but, you know,
22:37the idea that,
22:38like, as a,
22:38as a career-long liberal,
22:39you know,
22:40slightly left of Gandhi,
22:41uh, you know,
22:44I want to forgive.
22:46We get it.
22:48I want to forgive everybody.
22:49You know,
22:49and, and, uh,
22:50this one ghost,
22:51Jill,
22:52her point of view is,
22:53you know,
22:54none of us in the womb
22:55had a checklist
22:56of the way we wanted
22:57to be when we were born.
22:58So if it turns out
22:59that you were lucky
23:00and intelligent
23:01and articulate
23:01and all those things,
23:02that's great for you,
23:03but it isn't necessarily
23:04a given.
23:05So therefore,
23:05the proper relation
23:07to people
23:07is be merciful
23:08when they're wrong.
23:10Don't be too triumphant
23:11when you're right.
23:12You know,
23:12so she's kind of an angel.
23:14She's kind of a very
23:14spiritual being.
23:16Uh,
23:16but she's also really bad
23:17at her job.
23:18So, so,
23:19so for me,
23:20it became a debate
23:21about, like,
23:21in, you know,
23:23liberals like myself,
23:25uh,
23:26you know,
23:26if somebody,
23:28somebody hits you
23:28in the head
23:28with a rock,
23:29you're like,
23:29oh,
23:30thank you for the
23:30geology lesson.
23:31You know?
23:33But I know
23:33that's not serving us
23:35very well now.
23:35You've got to have
23:36some spine.
23:37So the Frenchman
23:37is somebody who says,
23:38sure,
23:38you can forgive,
23:39but first you have
23:40to make people confess
23:41and you have to reduce them
23:43to a place of honesty
23:43and then you can start
23:44talking about repentance.
23:46Yeah.
23:46How do you see that?
23:47I mean,
23:47in this day and age,
23:48I read that
23:50and I want to be somebody
23:51who is like Jill,
23:53this character
23:53who wants to comfort
23:54and see,
23:55use a wonderful phrase
23:56that their existence
23:57and who they are
23:58is inevitable
23:59because of the circumstances
24:01that they are in.
24:02But then you see
24:03that up against somebody
24:04who's a climate denier
24:05and caused a lot of havoc
24:06in this world
24:07and I do,
24:08in this day and age,
24:10that is so devoid
24:11of accountability.
24:12Like,
24:12I look to these characters
24:13and I wonder
24:14how much,
24:14how much grace
24:15we should accord people
24:17who have done
24:17such terrible things.
24:18Well,
24:18I mean,
24:19the ultimate grace,
24:20I think,
24:20is to hold somebody
24:21to say
24:22what you're doing
24:23is cruel
24:24and you can't
24:25just keep doing it
24:26and we're going
24:26to stop you.
24:27So for me,
24:27like Minneapolis
24:27was a beautiful example
24:29of people saying
24:30we're not going
24:30to become violent
24:31but we're going
24:31to stop this.
24:32And so to me,
24:33there's no real divide
24:35between compassion
24:36and firmness
24:37if you do it right
24:38because God knows,
24:39I mean,
24:39if you're,
24:40you know,
24:40a list of people
24:42in the Trump administration,
24:44this isn't good for you.
24:45You know,
24:46I heard a Buddhist teacher
24:47say I wouldn't wish
24:48their situation
24:49on my worst enemy.
24:51Because of the karma
24:52or the sin
24:53that they're accruing.
24:54So in a certain way,
24:55I think to be firm
24:56and for me,
24:57the whole thing is
24:58in this really confusing
24:59shit show
25:00to say,
25:01do I still have any clarity
25:02about what I really believe?
25:03Do I still believe in truth?
25:04Do I still believe in love?
25:06Do I still believe in community?
25:08For me,
25:08I'm thinking like
25:09the big job
25:09is to keep that clear
25:12in my mind.
25:13How do you do that?
25:14Just even stepping away,
25:15I think that is a question
25:17I'm asking every day.
25:19And I mean,
25:20I hate to say it,
25:21when I go out
25:22and I talk to people,
25:23both political
25:23and also friends,
25:24people are having
25:25a miserable time right now.
25:26The world is on fire.
25:29There is a war.
25:30We see cruelty celebrated.
25:32We are constantly
25:34inundated with misinformation
25:35in ways that make us
25:36only angry and frustrated.
25:38It's hard to find that light.
25:41Where do you see that?
25:43You mentioned Buddhism.
25:44Is that a path
25:44that you have founded in?
25:46Is it writing books
25:47and then making money off of it?
25:48It sounds like
25:48that's also effective for you.
25:50It works for everybody.
25:51Yeah, okay.
25:52No, I think,
25:52I mean,
25:52there's this old parable
25:54about a kingdom
25:55that only had one well.
25:57And for some reason,
26:00a witch or somebody
26:01poisoned the well
26:02such that when the people
26:03drank the water,
26:04they would go insane.
26:05And so the king
26:06who lived up on the hill,
26:07as kings do,
26:08he had his own well.
26:09Looking down on people
26:10again is the best vantage point.
26:12But he had his own well.
26:13So the whole kingdom
26:15is going insane.
26:16And he's got the clear,
26:17clean water up there.
26:18And in the parable,
26:19the decision is,
26:19does he drink the water,
26:21become insane,
26:22and thereby be able
26:23to rule his people?
26:25And in the parable,
26:26he does.
26:26He goes as crazy as he is.
26:28In our time,
26:29I think the trick is
26:29to recognize the clean water
26:31in whatever way you can.
26:32For me, it's writing.
26:33You know,
26:34fiction works,
26:36the way I would say it is,
26:37a good book is a series
26:39of moments in which
26:40the reader recognizes
26:41herself on the page,
26:42her experience.
26:43And her heart rises to it,
26:45and she's engaged.
26:46And this goes on and on.
26:47And there's some told love
26:48that two people
26:49who don't know each other
26:50have reassured one another
26:52of their mutual humanity.
26:53So you feel,
26:55hopefully reading my book,
26:56you feel that I believe
26:58you're as real as I am,
26:59and vice versa.
27:00So I think it's a small thing,
27:02but for me,
27:03it's really helpful
27:03to every day go,
27:05I know shit when I see it,
27:07I know Shinola,
27:08whatever that is,
27:09when I see it.
27:10But, you know,
27:11but I think in this time,
27:12you know,
27:12this fever is going to break
27:14because these are
27:15a bunch of incompetents.
27:17It's like we took the...
27:20You feel so?
27:21You have hope?
27:22You see that?
27:24I think what happened
27:25was we took the most
27:27pugilistic, simplistic,
27:29strange people
27:29in the high school
27:30and put them in charge
27:31of the prom,
27:32you know?
27:33But I mean...
27:34But people got behind that.
27:35They did,
27:35and they did,
27:36and that to me
27:37is the one thing
27:39sort of intellectually
27:40I'm trying to work on
27:40is how did that happen?
27:42You know,
27:42that so many people,
27:43many of whom I know
27:44and like,
27:45and I know you've met
27:46a good many,
27:46how did they make
27:47that decision?
27:48And that,
27:49that I don't know.
27:50You wrote an amazing essay
27:52in The New Yorker
27:52in 2016.
27:53You went to MAGA rallies
27:55and events
27:56to sort of take a look
27:58at what was happening
27:59to America
27:59at that time.
28:00And you ended it
28:03questioning,
28:03I'm paraphrasing here,
28:04but that you saw America
28:05as a fragile place
28:06and you feared,
28:07you never thought
28:08it could potentially
28:11dissolve or crumble
28:12in your lifetime
28:13and you were
28:14questioning that then.
28:16Yeah.
28:16We are now in 2026.
28:19Like,
28:19is there any addendums
28:20to that feeling?
28:21No,
28:22no,
28:22I'm still going,
28:22what's happening?
28:23Was it?
28:24Yeah.
28:24No,
28:24I mean,
28:24the one thing
28:25that struck me
28:26on that,
28:27it was in 2016
28:28and I went to
28:28four or five rallies
28:29and I just couldn't
28:30believe the extent
28:31of the siloing.
28:32You know,
28:32like I,
28:33so I write for
28:33The New Yorker
28:34and sometimes
28:34in a moment of weakness
28:35I might drop that fact
28:36at a party,
28:37you know,
28:37just to feel better
28:38about my show.
28:40Thank you for admitting
28:41that.
28:41So many people
28:42come on the show
28:43they don't admit it.
28:45But so I'm at these rallies
28:46and I'm feeling
28:46very insecure,
28:47you know,
28:48because I mean,
28:48that doesn't get you
28:49very far in a Trump rally.
28:50Trust me.
28:50That's right,
28:51yeah.
28:52I don't feel so good.
28:55Do you know David Remnick?
28:56Do you know him?
28:58Jill Lepore?
28:58Do you?
28:59It doesn't get you anywhere.
29:00Well,
29:00and I mean,
29:01kind of the anti-punch line
29:02is not a single person
29:03knew what it was,
29:05which is fair enough,
29:06but I'd never before
29:06realized how divided we were.
29:08And so I think
29:09part of the answer
29:10to this is that
29:10we're getting
29:11different media fees.
29:12Like I said somewhere
29:13that,
29:13you know,
29:14if I go to fight
29:14with my anti-Trump uncle,
29:16we could just put
29:17two TVs in there,
29:19you know,
29:19put Fox on this one
29:20MSNBC and this one
29:21and we could leave the room
29:22and talk about something
29:22we know something about,
29:24you know.
29:25So there's something
29:25going on there,
29:26but I think the first order
29:27of business is to be firm
29:28in what we know is right
29:29and our highest vision
29:31of the country,
29:32which is everybody's welcome.
29:34When you're here,
29:34you're going to get
29:35all the rights.
29:36You're going to get
29:36every right and I'm
29:37going to fight for them
29:37no matter who you are
29:38or what you are.
29:39Those are pretty good ideas
29:40and they've been
29:41corrupted by this crew,
29:42but I think
29:43it's going to fall away.
29:45And then my kind of,
29:46I had a Buddhist teacher
29:47once who said
29:49despair is a more dangerous
29:50emotion than even anger.
29:52So to keep myself
29:53out of despair,
29:54I'm saying,
29:54well,
29:54when this crumbles
29:55and it's going to do so
29:56and it's going to be
29:57pretty catastrophic,
29:59then those of us
29:59who are of the spirit
30:00could fill the void
30:02with an even better version
30:04because this thing is now,
30:05it's been discredited
30:06in so many ways
30:07and it's just,
30:07it's basically standing up
30:08on one very shaky leg
30:09and it's going to go down.
30:11It's going to go down.
30:11I think so.
30:12That's my prediction.
30:13George Sonders,
30:14I got to tell you,
30:14it truly is.
30:16It is a,
30:19a wonderful book
30:20from one of the,
30:21one of my favorite minds
30:22in this good old strange
30:23beautiful country
30:25with bad water,
30:26but there's good water
30:26out there somewhere.
30:27There is.
30:27George Sonders,
30:28everybody.
30:29Your book is a big one.
30:30Go get it.
30:31We're going to take a quick break.
30:32Be right back after that.
30:47That's our show for tonight.
30:48Now here it is.
30:49Your moment is in.
30:49There's only one day a year
30:51that a morning anchor
30:52gets to say this,
30:53so humor me.
30:54Top of the morning to ya.
30:56Top of the morning to you.
30:57Top of the morning to ya.
30:58Top of the morning to ya.
30:59Top of the morning to ya.
31:01I can't do Irish.
31:02Good morning, folks.
31:03How was that?
31:04Was I still your Irish accent?
31:07I was trying to do an Irish accent.
31:08I can never pull it off.
31:09I always sound like a pirate.
31:10Top of the morning to ya.
31:12Ah.
31:12Mm-hmm.
31:13There you go.
31:13You might end up in a montage.
31:16Sorry.
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