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00:01The perfect murder, the unsolvable crime, does it really exist?
00:08In a TV first, we reveal the cutting-edge technology now used by British police to join the dots
00:15and reveal new evidence in all homicide investigations.
00:19I'm Tim Tate. I've been an investigative journalist for almost 50 years.
00:26I'm Sam Robbins, and I'm a criminal intelligence analyst.
00:30For over 20 years, I've worked alongside detectives on major murder investigations.
00:34Together, in this new series, we are going to discover the fatal mistakes
00:39which prevented the perfect murder from ever being committed.
01:22I'm Sam Robbins
01:25For the last five years, Carol Ray thought she had got away with a double murder.
01:33Her husband and disabled daughter died in a fire.
01:37She had deliberately started at their council home in West Yorkshire.
01:43Carol posed as a victim and a hero, and she even got a commendation from the coroner
01:51at the inquest into her husband and daughter's death.
01:56But murder will always out.
02:06From start to finish, this is like a classical Greek tragedy.
02:11It's only going to end one way.
02:13The benefit that we've got in this case is that we're able to look at it retrospectively.
02:17And what is quite telling here is the pattern of behaviour.
02:20So you're looking at triggers and then the acts of arson that Carol Ray undertakes.
02:27At the time these crimes and these police investigations took place,
02:32was this sort of timeline analysis a thing?
02:37Analysis in this country started to take off in the early 90s, really,
02:42and then it's grown from there.
02:43So we've now got the benefit of about 30 years' worth of crime intelligence analysis
02:48as a profession and as a career.
02:51Let's start with what we know about Carol Ray and her early life.
02:56Yes.
02:56I think it's fair to say this is a fairly tragic tale from start to finish.
03:02So Carol was born Carol Stoker in Hartlepool in 1957.
03:10Carol Ray was born to Linda and John Stoker.
03:13She was one of seven children.
03:15She had an unremarkable childhood.
03:19But at the age of 11, her father started sexually abusing her.
03:26That undoubtedly had an impact on her growing up.
03:29She was only 11 when that first happened.
03:32That would be something which really would have impacted on her ability
03:36to interact with other people, particularly trusting men.
03:41And lots of cases we see like this often turn out to be quite tragic
03:45for the victim of these crimes.
03:50And it's not to excuse what she's done later on,
03:53but really it's something that will have impacted on her personality
03:56and her ability to grow as a person.
04:02It's so important to understand the background of any offenders
04:06and any victims to see what's happened in their path
04:10that could have caused them to take the path that they've taken.
04:14And sexual abuse beginning at the age of 11 is going to be a key trigger.
04:19Yes, those are such formative years, aren't they?
04:21And when it's at the hands of someone that should be wholeheartedly trusted
04:25and is there to protect you, I can only imagine how traumatic that is.
04:30Carol tries to get away from her father and her family.
04:34She does.
04:36She ran away and made her way to the Halifax area and got herself a job.
04:41There she met Richard Ray.
04:45Carol's relationship with Richard was a sort of childhood sweetheart thing.
04:50She was infatuated with him.
04:52He was her supervisor at work.
04:55She stole him from another woman.
04:57She saw him as a love of her life.
05:00She meets Richard, who goes on to become her husband, very early on in 1970,
05:06so she's 14 at that time,
05:08which is probably an effort to try and move away
05:12because by 15, she's pregnant and has Mary, her first child, so in 1971.
05:19Let's talk about her early married life.
05:22What sort of conditions is she living in?
05:26Carol's second child, Sean, is born in 1973.
05:30And then in 1974, Amanda is born and she has physical disabilities.
05:36That's an incredibly difficult dynamic.
05:39You've already got two children.
05:40You now have a child that has got extra needs.
05:42You're not very well off.
05:44You've got a husband who is drinking quite heavily
05:48and you've got a father that is abusing you.
05:50So in terms of her quality of life, it was traumatic and not very good at all.
05:58The relationship deteriorated with his alcoholism, debt.
06:03He was terrible with money.
06:05But everybody thought he was a fun-loving person, happy-go-lucky.
06:09But Carol thought he was becoming evil and got them into debt
06:15and he was unfaithful with other women.
06:20But Richard Ray was not the only man in Carol's life or in her bed.
06:29Throughout the early years of her relationship with Richard Ray,
06:34even through the period where she gave birth twice to the couple's children,
06:43John Stoker continued sexually to abuse his daughter.
06:51Now, when someone is abused at such a young age and so extensively,
06:56it creates often very problematic behaviours,
07:00both in childhood and in adult life as well.
07:03You are not able to deal with things in a typical way often.
07:08You don't have healthy coping mechanisms very often.
07:13In 1977, Carol became pregnant with her father's child.
07:20She was forced to have an abortion to hide what he had been inflicting on her.
07:28And her life began spiralling ever further into depression and out of control.
07:39I mean, that's a perfect storm, isn't it?
07:42Absolutely. I mean, something has to break, doesn't it?
07:44It's such a build-up of dealing with so much that something has to give.
07:48How did Carol Ray's break happen?
07:52The first incident that we can pinpoint
07:56is the abortion of the child that would have been her father's,
08:00and that's in 1977.
08:02So, in December 1977, she sets fire to the family home.
08:09She set fire to a lot of clothes in the house
08:11and caused a big fire.
08:15Nobody was injured and they all escaped,
08:17but they had to move from the house.
08:20So what we often see with particularly females
08:23who have been abused by family members
08:26is they lack a sense of control in their lives,
08:29and sometimes they will resort to problem behaviours
08:33to try and get that attention, to get some control over things.
08:36And one of those things that people often do
08:40is things like fire setting.
08:42And fire setting, particularly in arson,
08:44are often seen as types of crimes
08:46that will attract a lot of attention.
08:49It's very destructive, obviously,
08:51but also there will be fire engines and people
08:54and the whole kind of commotion that goes with it.
08:56And that, to the person who's trying to get
08:59that psychological input from the event,
09:02can be quite powerful.
09:05Statistically, it's quite unusual
09:06for an arsonist to be female.
09:10And Carol was quite prolific in her fire setting.
09:14And this was usually as a reaction
09:16to particularly stressful periods in her life,
09:19or they occurred after an accumulation
09:22of particular stresses.
09:27So we know from your timeline
09:30that December 1977...
09:34Yes.
09:34..that's the first time
09:35that she starts a fire in response to trauma.
09:39Was she trying to hurt people?
09:41Was she trying to hurt herself?
09:43It's certainly a trigger response pattern
09:47that we're seeing.
09:50Carol Ray was an arsonist
09:52because she was an abused child
09:54and because she continued
09:57to be an abused adult.
10:17Richard and Carol marry.
10:19The children are taken into care.
10:22Richard then loses his job
10:24or becomes redundant
10:26and that is causing him to drink heavily.
10:30So whether Carol is then thinking
10:33that she's about to become the victim
10:36of two abusive men...
10:37Her father is still, you know, abusing her.
10:42She's got all that abuse in her background.
10:44And then Carol's sister confides in her
10:49that she has been abused by her father,
10:52which Carol had no idea of up until that point.
10:58Although Carol Ray tried to escape her dad
11:01and he tracked her down
11:02and he continued that abuse so significantly
11:05that she needed to have an abortion
11:07because he had actually impregnated her,
11:10it's not unusual that that abuse
11:14would then trauma bond someone like Ray to her dad.
11:19When Ray actually finds out
11:21that her sister is being abused,
11:23also at the hands of her father,
11:25she isn't able to cope with this.
11:28She becomes almost jealous of that.
11:31Carol loved her father
11:33because she said, she actually said,
11:34for all he did, I loved him.
11:37And I think she wanted him to herself,
11:40not to her sister and everybody else.
11:44While to people who haven't suffered
11:47that level of abuse,
11:48that would seem absolutely outrageous,
11:51it's this trauma bonding.
11:53And that happens when someone has been abused
11:56at such a young age and so significantly as well.
12:00That's where we see the fire starting
12:02as a response to being unable to cope with stress
12:06in a normal, healthy way.
12:11In November 1980, Carol sets her second house fire
12:16and this time there are eight people
12:18including herself in the house.
12:22She set fire to the clothes in the airing cupboard
12:26and caused a major fire
12:28from which she went upstairs,
12:32allegedly to warn her parents.
12:35The three brothers jumped out of the bedroom window
12:38and got seriously injured with broken bones.
12:41She jumped out as well and broke her arm.
12:44The fireman who attended the scene
12:46said it was like a battlefield
12:47with them all laying round with injuries.
12:50The house became totally gutted
12:52but everything else was saved.
12:56It was eventually,
12:57though it was held to be a bit suspicious,
12:59put down to an electrical fault.
13:03In terms of forensic fire investigation,
13:08then there are three elements, really.
13:12The cause of the fire, how it developed
13:16and then potentially who was responsible.
13:19So when you're dealing with a case from the 1970s
13:25when the fuel to start a fire
13:28was effectively our home furnishings,
13:32which could be ignited through very simple means
13:35of just holding a match,
13:37then it meant that the cause of fire
13:41was very often established to be the things
13:45that were available in the home.
13:47And the intent to start that fire
13:52suddenly becomes a very difficult prospect to investigate
13:55because we know that people who smoked in their homes
13:59would potentially cause these fires inadvertently
14:04or just totally by accident.
14:06So, of course, when that fire is started intentionally,
14:10it makes the investigation of intent very difficult indeed.
14:18It seems to have been the answer to all the problems
14:20is if I want a new house,
14:22I'll burn the one out down I'm in.
14:24If I'm in debt, I'll set fires and I'll get some money.
14:28Or if Richard wasn't behaving himself,
14:31that she could force him due to the fire
14:33to conform, to stop drinking.
14:38I think what could be interesting in this particular case
14:42is that Carol is hospitalised for four weeks.
14:46So, when you're in hospital,
14:48it's a lot more difficult for people to abuse you.
14:51You're being cared, you're warm,
14:54you're in a safe environment,
14:55people are actively taking care of you.
14:58In her mind, this isn't just releasing the safety valve
15:02that she needs when the pressure builds up too much.
15:05It actually rewards her.
15:07Yes.
15:08So, after this oasis of calm,
15:10she's thrown back in the maelstrom of her family life.
15:14Yes.
15:15Or, is this another reward,
15:17that her children are returned to her?
15:19So, that might be a double reinforcement
15:21in terms of the behaviours
15:24that you're then going to see going forward.
15:26But the underlying problem is still there.
15:28Yes.
15:28So, November 1980 was the fire
15:31that caused her to be hospitalised,
15:33and you've got a five-year build.
15:35So, that's a long time.
15:37On the 24th of September,
15:39Carol sets light to her family home,
15:42and this time, it has fatal consequences.
15:48Again, she became unhappy with where she was.
15:52Richard was drinking again heavily.
15:54In fact, he was regularly falling asleep downstairs, drinking.
16:00Though, he got well with the neighbours,
16:02and they thought he was a nice person.
16:05He would spend long periods of time unemployed.
16:08He had an issue with alcohol,
16:10and would often drink away
16:12what little money they did have as a family.
16:15And she also tried to support three children
16:17within that environment as well.
16:20Her youngest child was a daughter
16:23who suffered quite significantly
16:25due to disabilities, which she was born with.
16:28That was, again, an additional stressor
16:31for Ray within that family environment.
16:36The night of Tuesday, September the 24th, 1985,
16:39was pretty much like any other night
16:42in that family's life.
16:46Richard got drunk on cider
16:49and passed out on the sofa.
16:52Carol put the children to bed.
16:56She'd come to a stage where Richard's drinking,
17:00that she couldn't live with it anymore, in her mind.
17:04So he'd been out to a pub, had had a few drinks,
17:08and on the way back, he'd met a neighbour,
17:11and they were both out actually walking the dogs.
17:15And the neighbour said he was in a good mood,
17:17there was nothing to it, but he went back home,
17:20and then he continued drinking bottles of cider
17:24until he fell asleep,
17:25which had sort of become a practice.
17:30On those occasions, Carol couldn't manage to wake him up again.
17:34So on this night,
17:37she'd had enough.
17:39They were in debt,
17:41and she was fed up of him drinking.
17:45Her anger
17:47and her pain was bubbling up.
17:49And while her husband snored,
17:56she struck a match
17:58and carefully placed it on the arm of a chair.
18:06Very quickly, the living room went up in flames.
18:13The television exploded.
18:16The windows blew out.
18:18Carol's screams woke up her children.
18:23Mary, who was then 14,
18:26grabbed her brother, Sean,
18:28then aged 12,
18:29and dragged him to safety out the front door.
18:35Amanda, 11 years old,
18:38was so severely disabled
18:40that she wasn't able to escape.
18:49Amanda was left in the house.
18:51Carol made no attempt to go back in and get Amanda
18:54or to help her husband out of the fire.
18:59There was an eyewitness account,
19:01and it said that Ray was just stood in the living room,
19:05motionless,
19:06looking out
19:07into the world,
19:08and it was only after a period of time
19:11that she then
19:12tried to escape.
19:18Carol was standing inside
19:20the house
19:21as the flames were building up,
19:25and yet she did nothing.
19:27What does that indicate to you?
19:30There are several schools of thought here,
19:32isn't there,
19:32or several lines of thought that you could go down.
19:34Was she waiting to be rescued?
19:38Was she waiting to die?
19:40Was she hoping that the fire
19:42wouldn't spread as much as it did?
19:44I think it's difficult
19:46to tell what her mindset.
19:48Was she finally ready
19:50to go with the rest of the family
19:52and didn't want to be separated from them?
19:54There's a couple of things
19:56which can be read from that, potentially.
19:57That is,
19:58someone who doesn't really have much consideration
20:01for any life around her,
20:03someone who is
20:05completely resigned to the fact
20:07that she's going to die
20:09and she has set this house on fire
20:11and it almost in kind of
20:13a suicidal ideation.
20:16But then there's also
20:17the other side to that
20:19where she doesn't relate
20:20setting the fire to causing harm,
20:23particularly to her children.
20:26And the neighbours describe her
20:28as just walking about impassive,
20:33outside as if in a trance
20:34and not really bothered
20:36about what was happening
20:37until she noticed people
20:39were watching at her
20:40when she would start screaming,
20:41saying,
20:42me children are in the house.
20:44The fire brigade came
20:46and found Richard dead,
20:50having died through inhalation
20:52of smoke.
20:54And Amanda was in the bedroom.
20:57She had 35% degree burns
20:59and they resuscitated
21:02at the scene
21:03and she was taken to hospital.
21:07Twelve days after Carol Ray
21:09set that fire,
21:11her daughter, Amanda,
21:13died.
21:31Carol Ray causing a fire,
21:33which has ultimately led
21:34to the death of her own child
21:36is incredibly shocking
21:38and incredibly sad.
21:40A parent's main job
21:43in their life
21:43is to look after their child,
21:45is to make them feel safe.
21:47And there's often more emphasis
21:49placed on this
21:50when it's a mother and a child
21:51because of that historic maternal role.
21:56In terms of forensic fire investigation,
21:59then it would have definitely been
22:02an observation-based investigation.
22:06So firefighters would have
22:10entered that property
22:11with the primary purpose
22:13of extinguishing any fire
22:15and then beyond that
22:17would have then tried
22:18to establish the cause of that fire.
22:20Now, if the cause of that fire
22:22was a piece of furniture
22:24that had been ignited
22:26in the property,
22:26then it's very difficult
22:28to suddenly start
22:30to pick that apart
22:31from an accident
22:33versus something
22:34that was intentional
22:35and effectively started
22:38in order to commit murder.
22:41She convinced everybody
22:43that he'd caused the fire
22:44by accidentally dropping
22:46a cigarette while drunk.
22:49At the inquest,
22:50she persisted with that story
22:51to the extent
22:53that the jury believed her
22:54and recorded
22:55an accidental verdict
22:57for the deaths.
22:59The coroner commended her
23:01for her actions
23:02in getting the other
23:03two children out,
23:04which, in fact, she hadn't.
23:08What is interesting
23:10is that Carol
23:12then receives a commendation
23:14from the coroner.
23:15So although her husband
23:16and her disabled daughter
23:18have been killed
23:19because of the fire
23:21she started,
23:23Carol is essentially
23:24treated as a hero.
23:26Yes.
23:28So, we're going back
23:30to that positive reinforcement.
23:32She's come out
23:33and been rewarded
23:35for starting a fire.
23:37In terms of that
23:38positive reinforcement
23:40of behaviours,
23:41that's now the second time
23:43that you've started a fire
23:44and you've got something
23:46positive from it,
23:48despite the fact
23:49her husband
23:50and her child have died.
23:54It's very likely
23:56that Ray got a release
23:58from starting the fires.
24:00She had no outlet
24:02for her anger,
24:04for her frustration,
24:05for her trauma.
24:05So often setting a fire
24:07would be akin to a release
24:09for her.
24:10However,
24:11when she was then
24:12praised for rescuing
24:14members of her family
24:16from one of the fires,
24:17that potentially
24:18would have given her
24:19a bit of a thrill
24:20because she was suddenly
24:21seen as someone
24:22who was important,
24:23who was useful,
24:24someone who had
24:25a purpose in life
24:26and someone who was
24:27needed as well.
24:29She obviously was
24:30of the belief
24:30that nobody would catch her.
24:33Having gone through
24:33the coroners
24:34and got an accidental
24:35death verdict,
24:36she thought she'd
24:37got away with it.
24:38in fact,
24:39committed the perfect murder.
24:45And for the next
24:46five years,
24:46because it is,
24:47from what your chart shows,
24:49it is another five years
24:51between that fatal fire
24:53and the next one.
24:55Yes.
24:55Carol Ray
24:56essentially gets away
24:58with murder.
24:58Yes, she does.
25:00I mean,
25:00that is as close
25:01to a perfect murder,
25:04if you like,
25:05as you can imagine,
25:07isn't it?
25:07Yes, yeah.
25:08and is rewarded
25:10for her efforts.
25:11Yeah, absolutely.
25:13But all of the
25:15underlying
25:16familial problems,
25:19apart from her husband
25:20and disabled daughter,
25:23still exist.
25:24They do.
25:29Ray got away
25:30with the murders
25:31with the murders
25:31of her family members
25:32for many years.
25:34This may have been something
25:35which she felt haunted her
25:39because their deaths
25:40were never premeditated
25:42or it was never intentional
25:43to kill them.
25:44but she also was able
25:46but she also was able
25:46to quite convincingly lie
25:48about the cause
25:49of the fires
25:50initially.
25:52So it might have been
25:52something that haunted her
25:54but actually
25:54she also may have
25:56just tried to
25:57forget that this had happened
25:58and move on,
26:00particularly if it wasn't
26:01intentional
26:01and this fire starting
26:03came from
26:04a need for a release
26:05of trauma
26:06and stress.
26:12By 1990
26:14she,
26:15Mary and Sean
26:17were living
26:18in a new council house
26:20in Gargrave Close,
26:22Rastrick,
26:23just six miles
26:24from the scene
26:25of the fire
26:26which had killed
26:27her husband and daughter.
26:29She was living
26:30with another woman,
26:33a woman whom
26:33she'd taken in
26:34as a lodger
26:35who had a young daughter.
26:38They had started
26:39a relationship.
26:40We could never get
26:41to the bottom
26:42of exactly what
26:43the relationship was.
26:45Unfortunately,
26:46that lodger,
26:47Dawn Holdroyd,
26:48had a boyfriend
26:48and on the night
26:50of Wednesday,
26:50January the 24th,
26:521990,
26:53Dawn went out
26:54on a date
26:55with her boyfriend
26:56leaving her infant daughter
26:58in Carol Ray's care.
27:01And Carol thought
27:02if I start a small fire
27:03she'll come back home
27:05straight away.
27:07So she set fire
27:08to the curtains
27:08in the dining room.
27:12The fire got
27:13out of control
27:14but she got
27:15the children
27:16out of the house
27:17that were there
27:17and the fire brigade came.
27:20In the aftermath
27:21of the fire,
27:22Rhea explained
27:23that it was an accident,
27:25that it had potentially
27:26been caused
27:27by an electrical fault
27:28and that was something
27:30which in hindsight
27:33was seen as quite unusual
27:34because she had
27:36obviously started
27:36the fire
27:37but then was very calm
27:39and very calculated
27:40in the way that she
27:41described it
27:42as being an accident.
27:44That fire
27:45fortunately
27:46no one died in.
27:48No fatal consequences
27:49to that fire, no.
27:50But it did have consequences.
27:53Yes.
27:54By this point
27:55the association
27:57between Carol Ray
27:58and house fires
28:00is starting
28:01to become evident.
28:03One of the firemen
28:05who was there
28:06thought it suspicious
28:07that he'd been
28:08to her house
28:10on three occasions
28:11where there was a fire
28:12and Carol Ray
28:14was always present
28:14and he mentioned it
28:16to one of the
28:17uniformed police officers
28:18who was there
28:19who reported
28:21the conversation
28:22to a detective constable
28:25Philip Jagger
28:27who came to me
28:29with it
28:29and said
28:31give, outline
28:32the circumstances
28:33and what the fire brigade
28:35believed was
28:36a deliberate fire
28:37in the house.
28:39I then asked Philip
28:40to do a full
28:41antecedent history
28:42on her
28:44on Carol Ray.
28:47The Halifax area
28:49was broken up
28:50into three areas
28:51and she had moved
28:53between all three
28:54and the fires
28:55had been committed
28:56in those three areas
28:57and of course
28:58there were different
28:59fire stations
29:00they dealt with them
29:01in effect
29:02each time
29:03there was a fire
29:04it was as if
29:05it was the first time
29:06that she had done it.
29:09Because we didn't have
29:10the technology available
29:11to digitally
29:13link these
29:14situations together
29:16quickly
29:17then it would
29:18provide that kind
29:19of distance
29:20and time
29:22and time
29:24that prevented
29:26the situations
29:27being linked
29:28immediately
29:29but of course
29:30once you start
29:31to put police work
29:33on top of that
29:34and forensic fire
29:35investigation
29:36and start to
29:37identify patterns
29:39in the way
29:40that the fires
29:42took place
29:43and the circumstances
29:44around those fires
29:46took place
29:47then it starts
29:48to close
29:50that net
29:50really
29:51around Carol
29:52Ray
29:53We created
29:54a timeline
29:55of her offending
29:56we spoke to
29:57as many
29:57of the
29:59people who lived
30:00near her
30:01at the time
30:01especially
30:02the one where
30:03her husband died
30:04and they'd all
30:05said that
30:06they'd raised
30:06concerns about
30:07that fire
30:08at the time
30:09but
30:10nobody could
30:12prove anything
30:12some of them
30:13gave evidence
30:14at the coroner's
30:15call
30:16but her
30:17previous fires
30:18we'd never
30:19known about
30:20or became
30:21evidence
30:22in that
30:22inquest
30:25A large
30:26part of
30:27investigation
30:27now
30:28is looking
30:29at
30:30patterns
30:30and themes
30:32of crime
30:33so the data
30:35analysis
30:35around investigation
30:37is so much
30:37more sophisticated
30:39potentially
30:39than it would
30:40have been
30:40in the 1970s
30:42we have
30:43databases
30:44available
30:44we have
30:45linked
30:46computer systems
30:48that allow
30:48us to
30:49predict
30:50and identify
30:52patterns
30:53in crime
30:54and so
30:55in this case
30:56these fires
30:57are persistently
30:58happening
30:58on her
31:00watch
31:00and of course
31:01now
31:02that would
31:03be
31:03flagged
31:04immediately
31:04as a
31:05pattern
31:06that would
31:07almost
31:07certainly
31:08require
31:08investigation
31:13at this point
31:15the police
31:16arrested
31:17Carol Ray
31:18for the murder
31:19of her husband
31:20Richard
31:20and of her daughter
31:21Amanda
31:22and for setting
31:23three other fires
31:25with intent
31:26to endanger
31:27life
31:32they interviewed
31:33her
31:33but
31:34she didn't
31:35confess
31:35when she
31:36first came
31:36in
31:38unusually
31:39but with
31:39Carol Ray
31:40they had to
31:41interview her
31:41the opposite
31:41way round
31:42they had to
31:43start with
31:43their last
31:44offence
31:45because we
31:46had clear
31:47evidence
31:48then that
31:48it wasn't
31:49an accident
31:50so it was
31:51then
31:51talking to
31:52her about
31:52that
31:53then
31:53introduce
31:54the other
31:55offences
31:55and the
31:56more they
31:57talked about
31:57the one
31:59with her
31:59husband dying
32:00and the
32:00previous
32:01offences
32:01of arson
32:03at the
32:04parents'
32:04house
32:04when everybody
32:05got injured
32:06she suddenly
32:07realised
32:08that she
32:09wasn't going
32:09to get
32:09away with
32:10it
32:10so then
32:11she used
32:12the defence
32:12it was
32:13all because
32:14her father
32:15had been
32:15committing
32:16incest
32:16with her
32:17and was
32:18still
32:18committing
32:19incest
32:19with her
32:20up to
32:22two years
32:23before she
32:23was arrested
32:25she has a
32:26story to
32:27tell
32:27doesn't she
32:28which she
32:29says
32:29explains
32:30why she
32:31starts
32:32fires
32:32Carol
32:33reveals
32:34the background
32:35of abuse
32:36that her
32:36and her
32:37sister
32:37have been
32:38subjected
32:38to
32:38and as
32:40a result
32:40of that
32:41John
32:42Stoker
32:42is arrested
32:44and he's
32:44charged
32:44with sexual
32:45assault
32:46we actually
32:47did arrest
32:48the father
32:48and he
32:50served
32:50ten years
32:50for incest
32:54it's difficult
32:55to know
32:55whether Ray
32:56meant to
32:56intentionally
32:57kill her
32:58family members
32:59but she
33:00also continued
33:01to start
33:01fires at
33:02particular
33:02stressed
33:03points
33:03within her
33:04life
33:04when she
33:06was finally
33:06arrested
33:07she seemed
33:08almost
33:09pleased
33:10and relieved
33:11to be able
33:12to confess
33:12to the murders
33:13so it suggests
33:14that it may
33:15have been
33:15playing on
33:16her mind
33:16for some
33:17time
33:17but that's
33:18not to
33:18say that
33:19she felt
33:20gleeful
33:21that she
33:21had got
33:22away
33:22with murder
33:23she hadn't
33:24meant to
33:25cause
33:26such significant
33:27harm
33:27she may have
33:28felt that
33:28this was
33:29almost now
33:29a cathartic
33:30release
33:30being able
33:31to confess
33:34during the
33:35interview
33:35she then
33:35started to
33:36talk about
33:37herself
33:37actually
33:38in the
33:38third
33:38person
33:39there was
33:39no real
33:40sign of
33:41a mental
33:42illness
33:42any kind
33:43of delusional
33:43behaviour
33:44that would
33:45have explained
33:46that
33:46and it's
33:46almost like
33:47she couldn't
33:48accept that
33:49she'd done it
33:49but she was
33:50willing to
33:50talk about
33:51the crime
33:53and explain
33:53what had
33:54happened
33:54but using
33:55a third
33:55person
33:56we sometimes
33:57find these
33:57situations
33:58where people
33:58will talk
33:59about
34:00I was there
34:01when the
34:01person died
34:02but I wasn't
34:02responsible
34:03for the
34:03murder
34:04but there
34:04was nobody
34:04else there
34:05either
34:05and it's
34:06the kind
34:06of way
34:07of protecting
34:07themselves
34:08and protecting
34:09their own
34:09integrity
34:10because they're
34:11not quite
34:11able to come
34:12to terms
34:13with what
34:13they've done
34:15it's difficult
34:17to comprehend
34:18how you
34:19could have
34:19looked at
34:20all of this
34:21fire after
34:22fire after
34:23fire
34:23two deaths
34:25severe
34:27injuries
34:27yes
34:28and then
34:29heard someone
34:30say
34:31yeah I
34:32did start
34:33the fires
34:34but I
34:35didn't mean
34:35to
34:35I mean
34:36that's going
34:37to engender
34:38a fairly
34:39sceptical
34:39response
34:40isn't it
34:40yes it
34:41absolutely
34:41would
34:42and the
34:43minute
34:44you make
34:44the connection
34:45between
34:46the
34:47September
34:4785
34:48and then
34:49November
34:491980
34:50fires
34:50it automatically
34:51would have
34:52sent us
34:52back in
34:53time to
34:53look
34:53and then
34:54if you
34:54see a
34:541977
34:55fire
34:56where
34:56you
34:56then
34:57start
34:57to
34:58see
34:58the
34:58pattern
34:59of
34:59behaviour
34:59she'd
35:00accepted
35:01what she'd
35:02done in her
35:02mind
35:03and she felt
35:04justified
35:05but now she was just looking for excuses
35:08why she did it
35:09to try and mitigate
35:12the full effect of what it was
35:13and her criminality
35:15but there's no doubt
35:18when things didn't go her way
35:20she saw her answer to it
35:22was to start fire
35:25was to start fire
35:25that's what she did
35:26and every time when there was a crisis
35:28in her life
35:44Carol Ray essentially got away with murder for years
35:47if her intention wasn't to kill certainly her daughter
35:52then that is something which may have played on her mind for that entire time
35:59she is someone who was very calm explaining that the fire was an accident initially
36:06but then when she was later arrested she seemed almost relieved to admit what she had done
36:12so it's very likely that it might have played on her mind
36:15particularly if it wasn't
36:18an intentional death for her daughter at least
36:26so looking at the family
36:28the family association chart
36:30you draw
36:31at this point
36:32in 1990
36:34her father
36:35is on remand for sexual abuse
36:37her sister
36:38is recovering
36:39or
36:40dealing with trauma
36:41from sexual abuse
36:42so is Carol
36:43her husband is dead
36:45her disabled daughter is dead
36:47I mean this is a metaphorically a fire that's consuming this entire family
36:52yes
36:53and all based in childhood trauma
36:59on the surface it might be very easy to say that Ray had psychopathic behaviours
37:04however we need to remember the significant trauma that she had experienced throughout her life
37:10and the way that trauma manifests itself as people mature
37:15this is not to excuse what she has done but to explain why she has taken the quite unusual action
37:23of starting fires
37:26she was incredibly let down by the first man who is supposed to protect her
37:32and yet he was someone who essentially hunted her down when she fled and tried to escape him
37:40so and he continued to abuse it even into adulthood
37:42so these are things that most people thankfully would never have to deal with and would never have to manage
37:52she is charged with murder
37:54she is
37:55and endangering life
37:56yes
37:57and
37:58she offers
38:00a plea
38:01doesn't she
38:02she says
38:02I won't plead guilty to murder
38:04but I will plead
38:05guilty to manslaughter
38:07and the police and the prosecutors
38:09won't accept that
38:11they say no you're going to trial
38:13so by this time the case would have been built
38:16the investigation would have understood the pattern that had formed
38:19and that actually Carol is the common denominator in all four fires
38:25and manslaughter is a plea that is put forward for when somebody dies
38:31and it is in accidental circumstances
38:35there was no great premeditation
38:36there was no great premeditation
38:38you look at four fires and you have to ask
38:43were they planned
38:45not necessarily they were a response to trigger
38:47but you carried on doing it
38:49and that third fire killed your husband and your daughter
38:54so you knew what the potential consequences were
38:58really she knew at the second fire
38:59how hurt people could become in house blazes
39:03and she chooses to carry on that behaviour
39:08Carol Ray pleading guilty to manslaughter
39:11would save the substantial cost of a full trial
39:16and would spare witnesses from the trauma
39:20of having to relive what they had seen
39:23but the police and prosecutors
39:26to their credit
39:27refused to do that
39:29they said no
39:31Carol Ray
39:32you deliberately set those fires
39:35you did so knowing that people were in the house
39:40and you were reckless at best
39:43as to whether they would survive
39:47and so in December 1990
39:50Carol Ray went on trial
39:53for murder
39:55two counts of murder
39:56three counts of arson
40:00she pleaded originally guilty to manslaughter
40:05saying that she had set the fires
40:07but didn't intend to injure anybody
40:10this wasn't acceptable to the prosecution
40:13or the police
40:14and we persisted with the trial for murder
40:19after the judge sent the jury out
40:21after his summing up
40:22they deliberated for three hours
40:25they came back with guilty verdicts on the murders
40:29they didn't accept the manslaughter
40:33and the judge said that it was the only outcome
40:36he thought she was a danger to the public
40:39and I always would be
40:41with the persistence of fires
40:42when she had a personal problem
40:44and gave her five life sentences
40:47and he told her
40:51she was
40:52and would remain
40:54a danger
40:55to the public
40:58when Carol was sentenced
41:00she showed no sign of remorse
41:02she was impassive to the sentence
41:04as if she
41:06knew what she'd done
41:07and she was accepting
41:08what was coming
41:10by the time
41:12Carol Ray
41:13emerges
41:13if she ever does
41:15she will be a pensioner
41:19it's very difficult to know
41:21what Ray's prospects
41:23for rehabilitation would be
41:25because
41:25it would require
41:27significant
41:29therapy
41:30and significant work
41:32around the trauma
41:33that she has
41:34been exposed to
41:35throughout her life
41:36she would have to do
41:38some significant work
41:39around
41:40unpicking all of that
41:42and dealing with those issues
41:43to get past all of that trauma
41:45not least
41:46the trauma
41:47that would probably
41:48have come from the fact
41:49that she'd also killed
41:50her own child
41:52is there a lesson
41:54you draw from this
41:55because there is
41:56for me
41:57it is really
41:59looking at
42:01trauma
42:02and the
42:03fatal effects
42:04that that can have
42:05on somebody
42:05and trying to get
42:07interventions
42:07and supporting
42:10as early
42:11as you possibly can
42:12to stop those
42:13behaviours developing
42:14if you don't
42:17interrupt
42:17the cycle
42:18if you don't
42:19investigate
42:20early
42:20then you're going to be
42:22fishing bodies
42:23out of houses
42:24later on
42:25I think for here
42:26you're talking about
42:27where should the
42:28intervention points
42:29have been
42:29and where should
42:30that support
42:31and social support
42:33have come from
42:34to make sure
42:35that social support
42:36isn't disruptive
42:37or destructive
42:39so taking
42:41Carol's children
42:42away might not
42:43necessarily
42:43have been the
42:45right course of action
42:46and may have just
42:47added to that
42:48and also looking at
42:49abuse and the effect
42:51that has
42:51that early trauma
42:53is something
42:53that needs a lot more
42:54care and attention
42:55around it
43:00I remember this
43:01Chris
43:03because
43:04it's unusual
43:06that you find
43:06somebody who
43:07persistently
43:09sets fires
43:10with a view
43:11of changing
43:13her life
43:13normally people
43:15do it
43:15because they enjoy
43:16watching fires
43:17or they have a
43:18fascination for them
43:20but hers was
43:21for a specific
43:21purpose
43:22she was in debt
43:24she didn't like
43:25her house
43:26the council
43:27would rehouse
43:27she didn't like
43:28her husband
43:29she can kill him
43:30she didn't like
43:32a girlfriend
43:32who she was
43:33living with
43:34going out with
43:35another man
43:36I'll set a fire
43:37and she'll come
43:38home
43:38stay with me
43:39it was all
43:40to do
43:41with what she
43:42wanted
43:43how she felt
43:44emotionally
43:46and she put
43:47everything down
43:48to a father
43:51it's a case
43:52which could
43:53have been avoided
43:54Carol Ray
43:55engaged
43:56with some
43:57very very
43:58unhealthy coping
43:59mechanisms
44:00to deal with
44:01the trauma
44:01that she had
44:02experienced
44:03throughout her life
44:04had she have
44:06had more support
44:07had she have
44:08had
44:09someone who
44:11cared for her
44:12someone who
44:13didn't abuse her
44:14in the way
44:14that her own
44:15father did
44:16then she might
44:17never have
44:17reached a point
44:18in her life
44:18where she set
44:19fires and
44:20ultimately fires
44:21which were
44:21lethal
44:22so I think
44:23what sticks
44:24in my mind
44:24is although
44:25this is
44:25utterly horrific
44:27there were
44:27several victims
44:29left behind
44:30in terms of
44:31Carol Ray's
44:31behaviour
44:32it's also
44:33quite a tragic
44:34case
44:34because of
44:35the level
44:35of trauma
44:36and abuse
44:37that Carol Ray
44:38suffered
44:38she went on
44:40then to cause
44:41significant harm
44:41to her own
44:42family members
44:46ultimately
44:48Carol Ray
44:49almost
44:50got away
44:52she did
44:53for five years
44:54yeah
44:54what stopped
44:56her getting
44:57away with it
44:57her next
44:59offence
44:59compulsion
45:00undoubtedly
45:01what really
45:03struck me
45:04when I looked
45:04at this
45:05incredible timeline
45:07you drew up
45:07with all
45:08the key
45:08events
45:09was that
45:12right from
45:13there
45:14right from
45:15that first
45:16moment
45:17where
45:18John Stoker
45:19went into
45:20his 11 year
45:21old daughter's
45:22bedroom
45:22and raped her
45:24yes
45:26that
45:27end point
45:29was always
45:30going to be
45:31the outcome
45:31or something
45:32very similar
45:33yeah
45:33and the
45:34culpability
45:35and it's
45:36only when you
45:37see it
45:37laid out
45:38like that
45:38that it
45:39becomes
45:39crystal clear
45:40yes
45:42during the
45:44investigation
45:45it became
45:45clear
45:46that in
45:471985
45:48she had
45:49committed
45:50the perfect
45:51murder
45:51she had
45:52got away
45:53with it
45:53she showed
45:54no remorse
45:55and it
45:56took her
45:56five years
45:57for her
45:59criminality
46:00and her
46:01actions
46:01to come to
46:02light properly
46:02and for her
46:03to be sentenced
46:04for the crime
46:06that she did
46:06commit five
46:07years earlier
46:07and for her
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