- 13 ore fa
Conversations with Creators - Episodio 1: Bungie
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00:04Grazie a tutti.
00:33Grazie a tutti.
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09:48Grazie a tutti.
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11:03Grazie a tutti.
11:05Grazie a tutti.
11:10Grazie a tutti.
11:11a tutti.
11:13Grazie a tutti.
11:25Grazie a tutti.
11:26Grazie a tutti.
11:35Grazie a tutti.
11:38Grazie a tutti.
11:41Grazie a tutti.
11:43Grazie a tutti.
11:45Grazie a tutti.
11:46Grazie a tutti.
11:48Grazie a tutti.
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11:49Grazie a tutti.
11:50Grazie a tutti.
11:52Grazie a tutti.
11:55Do you have to open your mouth right?
11:57Well, I mean, it is a responsibility,
11:59and I think it goes back to, for me,
12:01it's about creating a universe.
12:02I mean, the most exciting thing for me in game development
12:05is I get to exercise my god complex.
12:07We get to go create an entire place,
12:10and if you do a good job and you instill enough stories
12:13into the environment just naturally,
12:15I mean, we talk about like,
12:17oh, how should this car be sitting?
12:18Well, it should be kind of up like this
12:20because when this person drove the thing,
12:22the wheel blew up, and then they skidded that control,
12:24e che è un piece di background art.
12:26Ma noi try to talk about it in that depth
12:28e io credo che
12:30che pensi come out
12:32per il player, anche se è indirettamente.
12:34Si senti, quando sei
12:35che non lo so che è, ma
12:38c'è qualcosa di importante
12:40che sta trattando a me,
12:41e che fa l'universo più grande e reale
12:44in un modo che è molto importante.
12:46We're not building
12:47questa lineare path
12:49through l'environmento.
12:50Abbiamo tutti i passi,
12:51e ci si possono incontrere altri
12:52e ci si possono cambiare.
12:54Ci sono pubblici eventi.
12:55E così,
12:57ci si trattano a vedere
12:59la città, la città,
13:00la città, la città,
13:01la città,
13:01la città,
13:01la città,
13:01la città,
13:02la città.
13:04Un'altra,
13:10la città,
13:11è l'opportunità
13:13del player empowerment
13:14del mondo
13:15e la città,
13:16la città,
13:16del mondo
13:17è molto importante
13:26del mondo
13:28del mondo
13:29e la città
13:30la città
13:33del mondo
13:34Rifles and if you're a horrible person use shotguns and that says something about yeah it really does let's let's
13:40yeah of course no I get it
13:41I absolutely get it just lets it's that's how as I'm approaching you I can know maybe I should walk
13:46away
13:46What does it say what does it say about me that I use two shotguns well we'll talk later
13:52There is a you know there's a debate that I believe has been settled but still strangely comes up about
14:00games as art and
14:02and about games as as a type of experience that can meet or exceed the experience we have with
14:12movies television and other forms of media and every time I hear that a movie is going to be made
14:18from a
14:19a current generation video game that I really really loved my first reaction is why would they do that the
14:26game was the movie the game was the the experience destiny is so cinematic and has such strong storytelling and
14:34has such a deep
14:34you know is so incredibly immersive
14:40have you considered at all taking it into other
14:44areas I'll talk to the first thing that you were saying about about games as art I
14:48I don't really I'm not really into labels Pluto's a planet I don't I don't really care like what's you
14:53know what is Pluto
14:54I think that's the interesting thing and I think it's really interesting to look at games and think about what
14:57they
14:58can do as interactive mediums that like movies or books can't but those other you know those other mediums of
15:03entertainment are
15:04you know they're good at good at different things and I think all of them you know all of them
15:09in their own way can be
15:10you know can be art and I don't I don't know if you were it sounded like you were going
15:13there like you know
15:14are games art or what do you think of the people that don't think games are art and you know
15:17what I
15:17I mean that's like saying what do you think about people who are convinced the world is flat
15:21they they're wrong they're not worth they're not worth acknowledging I think of when I think of art I
15:27think of something that makes me experience an emotion or challenges me to think about things or
15:31makes me look at a thing that I was really convinced was one way but actually has inspired me to
15:37look at
15:38it in a different way and movies have done that for me my whole life and and and books have
15:42done that
15:43for me as long as I can remember and while a game like Pitfall or Yar's Revenge was really super
15:48fun for me
15:49it didn't do it for me the way that like I don't know the one of the first one of
15:56those really hard character
15:57decisions is I had to make it make in Dragon Age Origins when I was like but I know I
16:01want you both to stay with me
16:03you know and and and I I wonder I mean I think Destiny absolutely qualifies under those rules as as
16:11something
16:11that affects the player beyond
16:16do this mission shoot the thing up and you know get the loot and go
16:19well I think the other thing the games do is they build relationships with other people right
16:23because I mean Destiny you're you're meeting other people online and your people are forming guilds
16:27and they're doing these raids and because it has to have really tight cooperation right
16:32so you're having to bond these bond with other players and I think that film doesn't really do that
16:38but film does all these other things really well and it's just a different medium like you were
16:42saying that has its own thing I mean like to like every Saturday I go to the movies by myself
16:48I go see
16:49something alone but the thing that we were talking about with no that's what they're for that's what
16:53it's like the place where you can just go and not talk to anyone for two hours and then like
16:57watch
16:57watch Liam Neeson kill a bunch of dudes like yeah it's sweet but but Destiny like what's the what's the
17:03phrase we talked about before like Destiny is basically the like the alibi for shooting aliens while you talk
17:08about the Oscars and so that there's this like there's this art in the connectivity and connection
17:13between people and watching watching things like communities spring up around getting into groups
17:18or like facilitating play with one another like there is like that to me is a lot of what what
17:23Destiny is
17:24about and what I mean you know you're very complimentary of the story but the I think a lot of
17:28the art for
17:28me of Destiny is the enabling of players to spend time in a world together and in this way that
17:34only a game can
17:36really do and what art is is so personal to people but I'm for me games are the art partially
17:43because
17:44we have so much growing to do and games are going to teach us things we don't even know yet
17:48and like
17:49that's super exciting for our industry like where are we going to be in 10 years who knows but I
17:53can't
17:53wait and it's one of the things that you know that we talk when we talk about Destiny we talk
17:57about how
17:58how you can run through the same area multiple times and it doesn't feel like okay he comes up behind
18:04that rock now and then this thing happens here like it feels like this living and evolving and
18:13actual world so when I say that you can kind of go anywhere with it that's really exciting to me
18:19as
18:19as a player because it's like if I walk down the same street every day I'll see the same people
18:25but
18:26some days things are going to be way different when I go down that street and the world you made
18:31feels
18:31that way to me I think that we actually have a lot of opportunities for improvement in some of the
18:36stories that you're telling there like the that like dynamism locally you boots on the ground is an
18:41area that we have massive potential for improvement I know that like like a bunch of players may see
18:46different things but probably for us as players who've played an absolute ridiculous amount of
18:51amount of hours in the game like that's an area that we want to make the world better we want
18:55to
18:55make the worlds of destiny much more yeah dynamic and ever-changing and yeah well yeah more like
19:01worlds and that I mean that's like a that's a limitation that we totally look forward to to breaking
19:05through let's also I'm sorry go ahead I was just gonna say there's a therapy to running a strike for
19:10the tenth time and knowing exactly where people come from and you're wrecking them with your with
19:14your gear and your abilities and your friends destiny is just a massive financial and commercial success
19:24and that's not that is not my opinion that is a fact that is that is unassailable it is massively
19:32successful and I wonder it at what point do you as a creative team when do you say all right
19:45we did a
19:45we did this this is what we wanted to do we like you know we made a good game really
19:50really
19:52we had a lot of work to do man cry a thousand tears every day about the things we could
19:57what
19:57could have been what we'd want to do what we still want to do oh yeah yeah I don't think
20:01there's I
20:01actually don't think there are there are many or any people on the bungee team who look at destiny
20:05as a job well done it's like a job in progress that has a ridiculous amount of work in front
20:11of us and
20:11like huge amounts of potential that you know we haven't we haven't met at all in a bunch of ways
20:18and
20:18we've met it in other ways but like that potential is the thing that I think we're still chasing like
20:22we have to we have to make destiny the franchise into something that rises up to meet the potential
20:26that people imagine when they sit down and they hear the like the music from the beginning or
20:32whatever that's the opening theme I don't know yeah clearly I played all of our games a whole bunch
20:40but I bet all of us have played this game more than any that we've ever shipped before and to
20:45be in
20:45that world as players to see the opportunity and to know that we can go into the office and make
20:49good on it is I mean it's really is really exciting would you agree that the primary like co-op
20:55multiplayer experience in in destiny is more cooperative than competitive I've been playing
21:04a little competitive the last two months that's interesting it goes it goes both ways my limited
21:09experience has been really positive I haven't run into that that gamer um uh who I call the uh oh
21:18I
21:18your mom gamer um who sort of like makes online play so miserable like most of the people that I've
21:24encountered online are just like good job man you know and like let's play again like this the way
21:29that that it should be no matter what and I wondered if that was sort of baked into the the
21:35design you
21:36of the the design at all so a part that is actually baked into the design and was super controversial
21:41during the development is the emotes like that like good job man like without having voices someone
21:46when you complete a strike I mean I don't know I've played tons of strikes like people almost always
21:50emote dance wave sit do something disrespectful to the boss's corpse that they can muster yeah but
21:57after a strikes over they're like finding these ways to like communicate and connect and while we
22:01were building the game did we have this internal feedback forum that's just called slash feedback and
22:05and it's basically an internal version of of reddit where people get to just vote up and vote down
22:10different ideas and one of the most controversial threads ongoing through the game's development was
22:14emotes like emotes live or die and it was I mean there were I mean there was this joke which
22:21was
22:21there like two types of people at Bungie the people who were wrong and the people who liked emotes
22:27there was actually another pretty controversial decision wrapped up in that and that was to default
22:32with no voice yeah and I mean that was on purpose yeah and that gets read a lot of that
22:37like internet
22:38noise you know that that you hear in a lot of other games and that I mean we argued about
22:42that for
22:43months and months and months and ultimately landed where we did and I mean I'm very thankful of it
22:47because I've had a similar experience to you which is a very helpful one do you think that that might
22:51be
22:51a direction that that titles are that as as the as the industry matures and as the majority of players
22:58mature and you have you know this itty bitty subset that won't mature do you think maybe that's where
23:03we're headed I don't think it's even about the maturity of people I think it's about creating the
23:07environment where positive social interactions occur and yeah absolutely the industry is going to be
23:12headed towards I mean how do you how do you create a you know a framework within which a community
23:18can grow like a positive community can can can grow absolutely and I mean hearthstone is another
23:22great example like you can only set the presets however the timing of when you say good job very
23:27important because someone can still be a jerk to you if you flub it and they're immediately good
23:32job good job good job you're like somewhere there's some jerk thanks I'm like uh there is a new
23:40iteration of destiny on the horizon um perhaps the galactic horizon might be the way to look at it
23:46since since we're talking about the event horizon since we're talking about destiny
23:51um uh uh what would you like to share with us about uh worlds that you have in mind and
23:58what what
23:59we can expect out of this upcoming iteration of of the of the universe so in the in the the
24:07game that's
24:07beginning year two uh destiny the taken king like we are absolutely we're absolutely trying to react to a bunch
24:13of the criticism of the previous year where we now have you know a central thrust through the
24:18entire game the title of the game is the taken king it's a game simply about a story as simple
24:24as
24:24bad guy shows up in town brings an evil army with him and you and the guardians of the city
24:29are gonna
24:29bum rush his fortress in the sky and take him out and it's this like simple the simple concept that
24:35then allows us to breathe a bunch of life back into the worlds by raising this army across the solar
24:40system the player is going to encounter that through through a bunch of their adventures you have
24:44this villain who's a we've you know we've taken some notes from some of the great work in dlc one
24:49which was about this pair of villains omnigal and crota and that that worked really well and was really
24:54resonant with our players and so as we like tilted the taken king into into having a single villain oryx
24:59who is in fact corda's father you now have this like aspirational villain who's going to sort of
25:04haunt you and taunt you throughout the campaign experience and then of course is going to be the
25:10the the thing that's going to lead you into the raid like we we wanted to have an experience that
25:13was really connected and thematic throughout which we uh which was another one of those areas that we
25:18had for improvement i think from from destiny one um and then if we're going to introduce this bad guy
25:24to you um it would be silly for us not to introduce a whole shit ton of new stuff for
25:29you to do as a
25:29player so there's three new subclasses like i'm not going to spoil all of them here these guys are
25:34going to talk these guys are going to talk about them there's a bunch of new weapons like we've we've
25:38doubled down on a bunch of the concepts that we loosely exposed in in destiny one with the way that
25:43that weapons work and we had this concept that you would see like oh a hockey rifle you know forged
25:48in the crucible well that led the team to ask a bunch of questions like what is a what is
25:52a weapon
25:53what is it and so a hockey rifle what does that mean well it means it's got a specific form
25:58it's got its own
25:59set of talents and we've built this sort of weapon branding aesthetic into the game where now
26:02people are going to be pulled in different directions based on weapons that they do fall
26:06in love with and weapons that they do find and get to tinker with in a bunch of ways you
26:11guys what do
26:11you play you play a warlock yes i know what you play you play a titan and you play sorry
26:16sorry whoa
26:17whoa i play defender titan oh no yeah so the the new titan is basically a a fire wheel a
26:25fire hammer
26:25wielding version of you know aspirationally something like thor throwing hammers that i'm
26:30on board throwing throwing that light the world on fire yes and uh that that's that's me
26:36that's who i'm gonna be i don't know you have to see the warlock though with the electricity nope
26:40fire wielding fire hammer yeah so what's yeah so the warlock yeah the warlock ability is amazing
26:46like the new one is really really cool because you just like float around it's like blasting people
26:49electricity it looks very much like the emperor or something from star how many uh fire hammers does it
26:54throw yeah zero zero zero but i never give them a chance to throw it because i'm just like
27:00vapor hammers they create pools of fire and then if you stand in the fire it makes you stronger yeah
27:04but only you everybody else yeah one of the things i'm most excited about one of the things i'm most
27:12excited about is just a little grenade yeah and you throw it and a wall of purple fire like erupts
27:18out
27:18and like destroys everything in its path i'm like that replaced the angry bees for me do you want to
27:23tease
27:23the fans at all i mean do you want to obliquely would any of you like to obliquely tease fans
27:29with
27:29something that uh that they would be excited to speculate about i mean i i won't even leave it to
27:33speculation like one of the areas that we will improve on this fall is the fantasy of you know how
27:38do i get loot like well we want you to get loot from the world we want you we want
27:42you to to get
27:43powerful items from from the world from killing monsters we want you we want the the new destination
27:48that you're going to be going to in the taken king to be an inscrutable loot filled fortress like we
27:53want it to be a place that you go a new set of rituals with new activities to do we
27:58want to make
27:58you engage with the world more to get the gear that you care about and i think that's like i
28:02mean
28:02i'm not even going to hint at that like we're just going to deliver that outer planets gas giants
28:09titan europa ensiladas we've got a lot of years of destiny ahead of us and a lot of planets to
28:15visit
28:15yeah there's a the solar systems yeah the solar system has a lot of places that we could go
28:20the pressure of potential within the solar system do you have your individualists like your project
28:28like do or do you have is is anyone working on like all right so you know primarily we need
28:34to get this
28:35out the door but i'm also kind of doing this on the side because i really want it in the
28:40game
28:40why are you looking at me yes absolutely i mean we like you said we all have our passions in
28:46this
28:47universe and things that you know we want to get in for the fans and for ourselves and and i
28:51mean it's
28:52just endless is it pretty top down in that regard where you have like your creative directors who go
28:56like this is what we're going for or can directors come up and say so we've been working on this
29:01and
29:01we kind of thought and like you have that conversation and let it develop out or is it pretty much
29:08like
29:08you know we're we're pretty we're pretty sad with like like jason basically is the overall he's the
29:13overall franchise creative director and then ryan is the game director for an upcoming title and then
29:19i'm the game director for the taken king and what we're doing is we're working with jason and then
29:24there are like a couple other people in this in this group and we meet every week and we're talking
29:28about where are we going and because the thing that would be really helpful to me and probably to
29:32ryan is to know like hey when your game's going to come out the year is going to be about
29:36this like
29:37we want how do we like weave that together and that that comes from this conversation that is
29:42both you know informed by jones but also informed by the you know arsenal of knowledge that we have
29:48from working with the teams on our respective projects so it's like bubbling up from them and
29:52then sharing it editing it into like how do we make the cogent thematic package that someone looks at
29:58and goes wow i have to get in this year like i have to buy this game like i can't
30:01wait and that's the
30:02top down part but the bottom up and there's so many things in the game that only exist because you
30:06know one one
30:06person you know we got super passionate well there's people that will just work in the back
30:10and yeah they're like secretly like okay this is my job but in the back i'm gonna do this thing
30:15and
30:15i'm gonna present it we plan for a chunk of content we call emergent which is it's not a plan
30:20from some
30:21director yeah like it's where cool ideas are going to get born oh that's a great idea someone in the
30:26building is going to have an awesome idea and we want to cultivate that and like get it in and
30:31so we try
30:31to block out time for that stuff that's because it because it matters i mean we make better games if
30:37we inspire everybody to to feed into it we should say that's kind of where the raid came from that's
30:43where raids came from was really kick-ass idea like hey we should we should do this experience and
30:48working on that kind of back burner and then slowly kind of revealing it to the studio but look
30:52didn't have a choice let's just be clear so that's awesome that it like encourages people to be
30:57creative and built like well take that and do it yeah i mean it keeps i mean we're making video
31:02games it should be fun you know you should have those moments the job is so stressful and it's
31:08like stressful in these ways where it's so easy to lose sight of oh my gosh like the job is
31:13to guarantee
31:14that when jimmy picks up the controller and the title screen for the game comes up and the music comes
31:20up his avatars show up he smiles you know like that's like the yeah and then yeah talk about the
31:26pressure of potential like the pressure of guaranteeing someone's happiness is pretty
31:31it's pretty frightening so that's this is a thing that that is sort of unique to maybe this moment
31:36in time i mean i know all of your your resumes and and i mean you guys made games that
31:42i've been playing
31:42since the 90s and that was a time where it was possible for us who were players in your games
31:49to sort
31:49of like track down or reach out or send an email or make a usenet post or whatever but it
31:54wasn't as
31:54immediate it wasn't as accessible um and and it wasn't as like as communicative as it is now does
32:04that like look back on like maybe the last 20 years you know on that on that career and and
32:10how has that
32:11changed the decisions you make as developers i mean i know it's the ways that it changes you know
32:19audiences interactions are self-evident but how does it change the way you approach development
32:24like then versus versus now and maybe one spot in between well i mean just look at the game we
32:30made i mean we came from building linear campaign shooters you know with this maybe competitive game
32:35that a lot of people played for a long time afterwards but i mean what we we totally turned
32:39that around and we built a game for you know for a community we built a game to be live
32:43we built a game
32:44we could build into and i mean i think we yeah we did that because that's the kind of game
32:48we wanted to
32:49play but also because the i mean the the internet everything you just said i mean the connection
32:53that we could have to the to the community and and that's why that's why it's so amazing to read
32:57reddit to see what people are doing in this sandbox that we that we built for them and the feedback
33:01loop
33:01is so fast i mean we'll release a patch and in five minutes we're hearing about it right like oh
33:06man
33:07yeah that's amazing to be able to get that response quickly it makes me feel really good as a creator
33:13and
33:13as a player to hear yeah you know sometimes we make mistakes and we learn from them and it makes
33:18me feel like well shit i'm on board with this franchise more than i already was because like
33:24now i know like the feedback is taken in you know we wish we could you know talk directly to
33:29people all
33:30the time like oh you're so right we know we're working on it like but but we can right like
33:35we have
33:35to be careful about what we say and what we do but we're our own worst critics too right i
33:39mean a lot
33:39that's i mean some of the stuff that's out there is like we know we we are we are already
33:44i mean
33:44we're immediately game ships were already like okay we we need to address some of these issues and
33:49so here's here's the thing pretty much everything that people are like yell about and make a big deal
33:54about they're right in the sense that you know we you know we're somehow we're falling short of what
33:58we should have done like they had an experience that they didn't like and they're yelling about it
34:01i think it's very difficult to actually go from that to the the the diagnosis of what you should do
34:06but like when people get up in arms about something on the internet it's it's usually
34:10for a reason i would say it's almost always for for a reason like deep down like we pay attention
34:14to
34:14that that's good to know because now you're going to get the pitchforks out on the internet well i just
34:20have a few grievances i'd like to air caps lock really gets our attention so how do you feel about
34:27the poop emoji it's my favorite yeah i find that that's that's really that's really great um you guys
34:33i'm really really looking forward to uh destiny the taken king and i'm looking forward to playing
34:38it with my kids who are adults but we play games together so that's really fun and i'm very i
34:44very
34:44much appreciate you taking some time to come here and have this conversation with me today and
34:49thanks for making a thing that i like awesome awesome thanks thank you
34:56interstate 76 came out um which i really really loved um uh and i actually found my interstate 76
35:04gameplay discs recently and and ripped the music off of them so i could have that soundtrack because
35:10it's so much fun on a road trip um my son nolan was like seven and he wanted to see
35:16the game and i was
35:17like i don't think you're gonna like this buddy and he came in to look at me as i was
35:21playing this map
35:22that was a user generated map where all you did was race your car down a hill as fast as
35:27you can
35:27and jump and just see how long you how long i didn't i just i didn't i didn't i thought
35:33it would
35:33be boring to him and and the whole point of this map was it was like you can jump no
35:38weapons no armor
35:40and you were gonna wipe out every time but the stupid amount of fun that you had just like tricking
35:47out your car like as light as you could with the heaviest motor to go and blast off of that
35:53ramp
35:53and he was like let's do this that's yeah i mean it's it's cool and you're like yeah now do
35:59you want
35:59to see the game no more jumps
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