- 4 hours ago
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:02From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news.
00:09This is The Daily Show with your host, Jordan Klepper.
00:26Welcome to The Daily Show. I'm Jordan Klepper. We've got so much to talk about tonight.
00:30Trump wants to grab Cuba by the Cohibas, free speech updates its terms and conditions,
00:36and MAGA gets into a big fight over small penises.
00:39So, let's get into our ongoing coverage of the war in Iran.
00:46Nothing bad can happen. It can only good happen.
00:51Now, according to public polling, the war in Iran has less support at its outset than any previous American war.
00:58And wars are almost always popular in the beginning. They're kind of like Apple TV shows.
01:06People are like, I don't know what's going on here, but for some reason, I'm on board.
01:11But President Trump doesn't need popular support or congressional consent to declare war,
01:18because he's got a high-profile fan on his side.
01:21President Trump made news when he suggested a former president he's been speaking with wishes he had done to Iran
01:27what Trump has done.
01:28I spoke to one of the former presidents, who I actually like, and he said, I wish I did what
01:33you did.
01:34Okay.
01:38First of all, why is the president holding onto the desk like it's a safety bar and a Six Flags
01:43roller coaster?
01:46No, come into the Oval Office. I'll be right with you. Just, uh, let my French tips dry, you know?
01:52No biggie.
01:55But the big question is, which former president gave Trump props for the war in Iran?
02:02Come on, Trump! Spill the beans!
02:04I just want to ask you about something very interesting that you said twice today.
02:07That you talked to another former president about the Iran strikes.
02:11I did.
02:11Was it George W. Bush?
02:13No.
02:13Was it Bill Clinton?
02:15I don't want to say.
02:18Oh, oh.
02:20I think you said plenty, Mr. Trump.
02:24I don't want to give away who it is.
02:26All I can say is that I was recently helping him prep for his Epstein Island deposition.
02:30That's all.
02:32By the way, I love how Peter Doocy is trying to play guess who with our toddler president.
02:39Is he wearing glasses?
02:42Is he bald?
02:43If he was doing karaoke, would he be allowed to sing all the words in Gold Digger?
02:48Mr. Trump?
02:52Now, there's also another possibility, and this may come as a shock.
02:58Which is that maybe, just possibly, Trump pulled the whole thing out of his ass.
03:03...aides to each of the four living former presidents
03:06all deny they have had any such conversations
03:09with President Trump.
03:10Yes!
03:12The living former presidents denied talking to Trump.
03:17Trump never said living!
03:21What's more likely, that Bill Clinton thinks
03:23starting a half-baked war in the Middle East was a good idea,
03:26or that Trump spent 20 minutes
03:28talking to a portrait of Grover Cleveland?
03:33Regardless of who he's been talking to about it,
03:35I'm just glad the president has his mind 100%
03:38completely focused on this daunting situation with Iran.
03:41I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of...
03:46taking Cuba.
03:48No! No!
03:50No new wars until you finish the war we just got you!
03:55This is not the time to be taking Cuba.
03:57By the way, what do you mean by taking Cuba?
04:02Taking Cuba.
04:03Taking Cuba in some form, yeah.
04:05Taking Cuba.
04:06I mean, whether I free it, take it,
04:10I think I can do anything I want with it.
04:11You want to know the truth?
04:14You can do anything you want with it?
04:17I don't know what's worse,
04:18that he's talking like a supervillain,
04:20or that he sounds so bored about it.
04:23You should be cackling with lightning in the background
04:26when you say shit like that.
04:27Why are you sounding like Lexapro Luther over here?
04:32The world is mine, Superman, I guess.
04:34Whatever.
04:36But while Trump seems unengaged,
04:38some people in his administration are getting worked up.
04:41Breaking news.
04:42The head of the National Counterterrorism Center,
04:45Joe Kent,
04:46announced just hours ago
04:48that he is resigning immediately
04:50over the war in Iran.
04:51Whoa!
04:53I mean, that would be even more damning
04:55if this guy wasn't an unqualified crackpot,
04:57but...
04:59...it still has to shake up a president
05:01when one of your appointees resigns over your war.
05:05I read his statement.
05:06I always thought he was a nice guy,
05:07but I always thought he was weak on security,
05:10very weak on security.
05:13You appointed him!
05:17You know what?
05:18I guess that tracks.
05:19Everyone knows the qualifications
05:21for running the National Counterterrorism Center
05:24go nice guy,
05:26brings muffins to the morning meeting,
05:28and then all the way down the list,
05:30good on security.
05:32But this split is dividing
05:34the entire MAGA movement right now.
05:35There's the anti-war side
05:37with people like Joe Rogan,
05:38Tucker Carlson,
05:39and Megyn Kelly,
05:40and there's the pro-war side
05:41with Sean Hannity,
05:42Lindsey Graham,
05:43and Mark Levin.
05:44And as you can imagine,
05:46the quality of an internal MAGA debate
05:48is highly intellectual.
05:50On the X platform,
05:51Mark Levin posted,
05:53Poor Megyn Kelly,
05:54an emotionally unhinged,
05:56lewd,
05:56and petulant wreck.
05:57She's completely revealed
05:59and destroyed herself.
06:00In response,
06:02Megyn Kelly posted,
06:03Micropenis Mark Leach
06:05sees he has the monopoly on lewd.
06:06He doesn't like it
06:07when women like me fight back
06:09because of his micropenis.
06:12Oh.
06:14Oh.
06:15Gee.
06:16Oh.
06:18Oh.
06:23Feels like I'm bad
06:24at the Oxford Debate Club.
06:27Be it resolved,
06:28that dick be tiny.
06:30Now,
06:31it's not a good look
06:32for President Trump
06:32to have his followers
06:33fighting so publicly
06:34over their micropenises.
06:36Donnie,
06:37why don't you step in
06:38and heal the divide?
06:39President Trump defended
06:41Mark Levin,
06:42posting that he is
06:43somewhat under siege
06:44by other people
06:45with far less intellect,
06:46capability,
06:47and love for our country.
06:48Mark is tough,
06:50strong,
06:50and brilliant.
06:51In response,
06:52Megyn Kelly posted
06:53that Mark Levin
06:54went running to daddy
06:55about his micropenis.
06:57Damn it, Megyn!
06:59You did!
07:00Oh!
07:04Now,
07:05it's obviously
07:06not fair
07:07to accuse Mark Levin
07:08of running to daddy
07:09about his micropenis.
07:11Although I imagine
07:12having a micropenis
07:13makes the running
07:14a lot easier.
07:18Totally unrelated,
07:19but in high school,
07:20I was the slowest guy
07:21in gym class.
07:32By the way,
07:34did you notice
07:34that at no point
07:35did Trump deny
07:37the micropenis allegations?
07:39Not exactly
07:40the full-throated defense
07:41you want.
07:42He has a micropenis!
07:43Hey!
07:44He's a nice man!
07:48Also,
07:48I'm sorry,
07:49aren't we at war?
07:50You're-you're tweeting
07:51about your buddy's micropenis.
07:53Was FDR taking time
07:54out of his fireside chats
07:56to be like,
07:56anyway,
07:57that's how D-Day went.
07:58Now,
07:59if I may say
07:59a few words
08:00about whether
08:01my friend Zachary
08:01has a chode.
08:05Please.
08:05Please.
08:07Isn't there anybody
08:08who can calm
08:09the situation?
08:11Marjorie Taylor Greene,
08:12you're a-
08:13you're a respected
08:15member of MAGA.
08:16Perhaps you can bring
08:17some intellectual substance
08:18to this debate.
08:19Former Congresswoman
08:20Marjorie Taylor Greene
08:22posted,
08:22I wholeheartedly
08:23support Megyn Kelly
08:24telling the world
08:25that Mark Levin
08:26has a micropenis.
08:27Oh, Marjorie,
08:29come on!
08:30Oh!
08:31He's...
08:32Come on!
08:38With all this talk
08:40about micropenises,
08:41we're losing sight
08:42of the real reason
08:43we attacked Iran,
08:44which is...
08:46shit!
08:49You know what?
08:50Now that I think about it,
08:51we never got an answer
08:53to that, actually.
08:54And-and believe me,
08:55I've been searching
08:56for one harder
08:57than Mark Levin's urologist,
08:58you know?
08:59Boom!
09:01Sorry.
09:02Okay.
09:03Sorry, Mark,
09:03I had to get in
09:04one last small one.
09:05Just like you!
09:06Boom!
09:07You got it!
09:08Sorry.
09:09Sorry.
09:09Sorry.
09:09Sorry.
09:10Okay.
09:11Okay, look.
09:11Can conservatives please
09:13just stay focused
09:13on the actual war.
09:15There's a new Ayatollah
09:16in power
09:17who is dead set
09:18on revenge.
09:19You should be talking
09:19about him,
09:20not gossiping
09:21about men's penises.
09:22The New York Post
09:23is reporting
09:24that the president
09:25was just briefed
09:26about the new Ayatollah.
09:28Sources are saying
09:29Ayatollah Jr.
09:30might be gay.
09:32Oh.
09:35You gotta love
09:36that banner.
09:37New Ayatollah
09:39is probably gay.
09:42Give it up
09:43for the fourth estate,
09:44everyone.
09:45Wow.
09:45Bravo.
09:47Yes.
09:49Love the media
09:50who apparently
09:51are now reporting gossip
09:52like they're
09:53high school mean girls.
09:55This just in
09:55from the CIA.
09:57The New Ayatollah
09:58got his period
09:59in the driver's ed car.
10:02Fine, fine.
10:04I guess we're doing this.
10:04Media establishment,
10:05let's hear that
10:07hot, hot goss.
10:09Ayatollah Jr.
10:10might be gay
10:11and has been making
10:13aggressive sexual advances
10:15on his male caretakers
10:16while hopped up on meds.
10:19His father reportedly
10:20thought he was too gay
10:22to be Iran's
10:24supreme leader.
10:27Too gay?
10:29I like the implication
10:31that the supreme leader
10:33of Iran should be
10:34a little gay.
10:37He should be like,
10:38death to America!
10:40Except Lady Gaga.
10:42So that's basically
10:44where we're at right now.
10:45This country has launched
10:46itself into a devastating
10:47regional war
10:48in the Middle East.
10:49The president is focused
10:50on taking Cuba.
10:51His movement is split
10:52amongst themselves
10:53and the media
10:54is turning into TMZ.
10:56I mean, the quality
10:57of our discourse
10:58has absolutely vanished.
10:59And in these fraught times,
11:02is it too much
11:03to ask for just a
11:04little bit
11:06of thoughtfulness
11:07and dignity?
11:09If we could
11:09just have
11:11the smallest amount,
11:13it would still be bigger
11:15than Mark Levin's
11:16penis!
11:16Boom!
11:17Sorry, Mark.
11:19Sorry.
11:21Sorry.
11:22Sorry, Mark.
11:22Sorry.
11:23No.
11:23For more on the rumors
11:25about Iran's new
11:26supreme leader,
11:27let's go live
11:27to the Pentagon
11:28with Troy Iwata.
11:29Troy!
11:34Troy, what do you think
11:36about the rumors
11:37that the Ayatollah
11:38is gay?
11:38Well, Jordan,
11:39as the only gay person
11:41in the entertainment industry,
11:43I can assure you
11:44that the Ayatollah
11:45is not gay.
11:46Okay.
11:47Well, that makes sense.
11:48He's obviously
11:49queerbaiting.
11:50And I don't appreciate it.
11:52I'm sorry,
11:54queerbaiting?
11:55Yes, yes.
11:56It's exactly what
11:57everyone in Hollywood
11:58does to a T, okay?
12:00They take a straight man,
12:01tease the idea
12:02that he might be
12:03a little...
12:03You know?
12:05And then just watch
12:06everyone get obsessed
12:07trying to figure out
12:08if he is indeed
12:09a little...
12:11It's so manipulative.
12:12But why would he
12:14even do that?
12:15The Islamic regime
12:16is very homophobic.
12:17It doesn't matter
12:18how homophobic
12:19the regime is.
12:20A good story
12:21is a good story.
12:22You know?
12:23Think about it.
12:23A closeted leader
12:24of a homophobic nation
12:26forced to lead
12:27after your father
12:28who never accepted
12:29your lifestyle
12:30is suddenly killed
12:32and now you're burdened
12:34with the responsibility
12:35to pass laws
12:36and uphold traditions
12:37that go against
12:38your true nature
12:39when all you ever
12:40wanted to do
12:41was just feel
12:42that spotlight?
12:44Wow.
12:45I mean, you're right,
12:47Troy.
12:47I feel so bad for him.
12:48He's not gay, Jordan.
12:51He's just sucking you
12:53into this fake narrative
12:54by doing what
12:55every Hollywood TV show does.
12:57It's so gross.
12:58I would only watch
12:59like half of it.
13:01Oh, my God.
13:02I mean,
13:03what if he falls in love
13:04with an Israeli general
13:05but they can only see
13:07each other across
13:08the Strait of Hormuz
13:11and all of their
13:12communication
13:12has to be nonverbal?
13:14Oh, my God.
13:15Can you imagine?
13:16That would be so sad
13:18and hot.
13:20Wait, stop, stop.
13:21No, you're getting me
13:22sucked into it now.
13:23Stop it.
13:23I'm sorry.
13:24I'm sorry.
13:24You're right.
13:24It's a very powerful technique.
13:26Why doesn't our president
13:27try queerbaiting?
13:32Donald is not going to
13:33pretend to be gay, Jordan,
13:35okay?
13:35He's pretty gay already.
13:38What are you talking about?
13:39He's married to a woman.
13:41Oh, wow.
13:42A gay man has never
13:43been married to a woman
13:44before.
13:46Totally.
13:51Wow, yeah.
13:52He's not gay.
13:52He just tore down
13:53his wife's office
13:54to build a ballroom.
13:57But how do we know
13:59he's just not
13:59queerbaiting, too?
14:01Because in order
14:02for queerbaiting to work,
14:04people need to
14:04want to have sex with you.
14:08Troy Iwata, everyone.
14:10We come back.
14:11The president has a new
14:12app for you,
14:13so don't go away.
14:36Welcome back to, uh,
14:38The Daily Show.
14:39Free speech.
14:39It's the piece de resistance
14:41of our constitutional rights.
14:43It assures that I can say
14:44insufferable things
14:45like piece de resistance,
14:47and the only consequence
14:49is having no friends.
14:50But lately,
14:52this piece de resistance
14:53has been under attack.
14:55President Trump
14:56and his officials
14:57are ramping up attacks
14:58on news organizations
14:59and broadcasters.
15:00President Trump
15:01baselessly claiming
15:01on Truth Social
15:02that the New York Times
15:03and the Wall Street Journal
15:04and other low-life papers
15:05and media
15:06actually want us
15:07to lose the war.
15:09Then last night,
15:10the president wrote,
15:11quote,
15:11I am so thrilled
15:12to see Brendan Carr,
15:13the chairman of the
15:13Federal Communications Commission,
15:14looking at the licenses
15:16of some of these corrupt
15:17and highly unpatriotic
15:18news organizations.
15:20What are you doing, man?
15:21You're still going
15:22after the press?
15:23There's no more mergers
15:25left to approve.
15:27We're all just subsidiaries
15:28of one company now.
15:31Correction.
15:32One great company.
15:36Sign up for
15:36Para-Warner-Dismax-Fubu-Cock
15:38today.
15:42Now,
15:45on the bright side,
15:47at least Trump
15:47has stopped short
15:48of calling journalists
15:49criminals,
15:50because that
15:50would be a huge escalation.
15:53President Trump
15:54falsely accused outlets
15:55of coordinating
15:56with the Iranian government
15:57to spread falsehoods.
15:58Writing, quote,
15:59you can say that
16:00those media outlets
16:01that generated it
16:02should be brought up
16:03on charges for treason.
16:05I actually think
16:06it's pretty criminal
16:07because our media companies
16:10who have no credibility
16:11whatsoever,
16:12I think they could be
16:13a serious jeopardy.
16:16Accusing the media
16:17of treason?
16:18You know what?
16:19I've got something
16:19for you to read,
16:21Mr. President.
16:21It is called
16:22The Constitution
16:23of the United States
16:24of America,
16:26which is...
16:29Where is my desk
16:30Constitution?
16:31Where the f***?
16:31F***?
16:31Okay.
16:33You know what?
16:34Pretend this
16:36Korean barbecue menu
16:37is the Constitution.
16:39Okay?
16:40Let me read to you
16:41from the First Amendment,
16:43sir.
16:43Uh-huh.
16:48Bulgogi rice bowl,
16:501699.
16:53Kimchi extra.
16:54Does that mean anything
16:55to you?
16:57But if President Trump
16:58is trying to limit
16:59journalists' freedom
17:00of speech,
17:01it might only be
17:01a matter of time
17:02before he tries
17:03to limit ours.
17:04Luckily,
17:05there's a new service
17:06that can help.
17:08Oh, my gosh.
17:09Have you been watching
17:09the news?
17:10They're cracking down
17:11on anyone
17:11who criticizes
17:12the president.
17:13I know.
17:14I'm worried about
17:14my freedom of speech.
17:15You mean,
17:16like, if I say,
17:17I don't really think
17:18President Trump
17:19is doing that great
17:20of a job.
17:20Shh, you're gonna
17:21get in trouble.
17:22Not me.
17:23Because I just signed up
17:24for Free Speech Plus.
17:26What's that?
17:27It's this new service
17:28from the Trump administration.
17:29I can say anything
17:30I want about the president
17:31for just $50 a month.
17:34What a deal.
17:35Do I pay with an app?
17:36Oh, no,
17:36you just hand $50
17:37to the man standing
17:38over your shoulder.
17:40Oh, no,
17:41I only have $40.
17:43Oh, that's okay.
17:44You can just sign up
17:46for Free Speech Plus
17:47with ads.
17:48I can talk as much
17:49as I want
17:49and every 15 minutes,
17:50my mouth plays a commercial.
17:52With gold at an all-time high,
17:54it's never been a better time
17:55to sell your jewelry
17:56for cold, hard cash.
17:58Whoa, that was barely noticeable.
18:00It even happens
18:01when I sleep.
18:02Cool.
18:03And here I thought,
18:04just my constitutional right
18:05to free speech was enough.
18:17So with Free Speech Plus,
18:18there's no limits
18:19to what I can say.
18:20Well, there are some limits.
18:22For example,
18:23no fat jokes,
18:24no dumb jokes,
18:25nothing about his little dick
18:26or his fat ankles,
18:27nothing about demolishing
18:28the East Wing
18:29or the Nobel Peace Prize
18:30or corruption.
18:31Oh, and nothing
18:33about Epstein
18:35or his little dick.
18:36Wait, no Epstein's little dick
18:38or no Epstein
18:38and no Trump's little dick?
18:40Both.
18:42Free Speech Plus.
18:43Free Speech
18:44has never been so guaranteed.
18:45Free Speech Plus
18:46does not cover black people
18:47and Muslims' late night
18:48TV show hosts,
18:48gender studies teachers,
18:49really good guys
18:49and liberal college students.
18:50So what are you going to say first
18:51with Free Speech Plus?
18:53Well, I think Trump
18:55is the promo code
18:56you can use today
18:57for 25% off your MyPillow.
18:59That'll show him.
19:02Free Speech Plus.
19:03Pay what you need
19:04to say what you want.
19:07Thank you, Desi.
19:08When we come back,
19:09George Saunders
19:10will be going around the show.
19:11Don't go away.
19:21Welcome back to The Daily Show.
19:23My guest tonight
19:23is a Booker Prize-winning author
19:25whose latest novel
19:26is called Vigil.
19:27Please welcome George Saunders.
19:47George, it is...
19:49I'm humbled to have you here.
19:50Thank you for being here.
19:50I'm humbled to be here.
19:51Thank you for having me.
19:51I loved this book
19:52for the dumb folks
19:53who haven't read it yet.
19:55Tell us a little bit
19:56about what this book is about.
19:57It's basically...
19:58The outline is
20:00a stinker dies.
20:01A stinker dies.
20:02A stinker dies.
20:02There's a guy
20:03who has been really active
20:04in the climate change denial
20:06back in the Bush-Cheney era.
20:08And it's the last night
20:09of his life.
20:09Yeah.
20:10So, you know,
20:10hilarity ensues.
20:13And you empathize.
20:14You show some empathy
20:15for this oil tycoon.
20:16Yeah.
20:17Is this really the time
20:18for that, George?
20:19It's always the time.
20:20No, I mean,
20:21when you're narrating somebody
20:22from inside his head,
20:23you find out that empathy
20:24is kind of...
20:25Or maybe not empathy,
20:26but kind of a level
20:28of understanding.
20:29You know,
20:29you're talking about
20:29his childhood.
20:30And to me,
20:31the interesting thing
20:32about this book was
20:33if you're a stinker,
20:34a guy who's really
20:35done bad things,
20:36how do you narrate
20:37that to yourself?
20:38Yes.
20:38I don't think it's
20:39the Cruella de Vil
20:39school of evil
20:40where you're like,
20:41yeah, yeah, yeah,
20:41I'm evil today
20:42and I'm loving it.
20:44But there's something
20:44going on.
20:45So how does...
20:46For three years,
20:47the question was,
20:47how does a guy
20:48who's done that
20:49and he knows he's done it,
20:51so how does he
20:52speak to himself?
20:53Yeah.
20:54You know,
20:54how does he rationalize it?
20:55And so, yeah,
20:55so you're getting
20:56in the mindset
20:56of somebody who's done...
20:57Yeah.
20:58...on the surface
20:59some pretty horrible things
21:00and made some decisions.
21:01Yeah.
21:01What do you discover
21:02about putting your head
21:03in that headspace?
21:04I try not to put myself
21:05in the space
21:06of other people,
21:06in their shoes,
21:07in their headspace.
21:09I try to stay immune
21:11from that kind
21:11of empathetic response.
21:13Just hover above them.
21:14That's the best place.
21:15It's the best view.
21:15I don't know why
21:16everybody's so critical
21:17about it.
21:18Yeah.
21:19What do you discover
21:19for being in that headspace?
21:20Well, I mean,
21:20one thing,
21:21in his case,
21:22the whole thing,
21:22in the last two or three hours
21:25of his life,
21:25and there's a series
21:26of ghosts who come around
21:27as they do
21:28and try to convince him
21:29that he's been wrong.
21:31And so it was interesting
21:32to kind of look
21:32into your own mind
21:33and say,
21:33well, how do I deny shit?
21:35You know?
21:35How do I...
21:36If I'm...
21:36Or stuff.
21:37Whatever.
21:39Cable, baby.
21:39It is cable.
21:41But, you know,
21:41when we've done something
21:43that we wish we hadn't done,
21:44there's actually
21:45a series of steps
21:45you go through.
21:46First is,
21:47I didn't do it.
21:48Right.
21:48Well, I did it,
21:49but I didn't mean it.
21:50Or, I did it
21:51and someone made me.
21:52And finally,
21:53towards the end,
21:53you might,
21:54you might,
21:54if you're lucky,
21:55especially if it's
21:56the last night of your life,
21:57have a moment
21:58of real honesty
21:59and clarity.
22:00Well, it feels like
22:00this book is also
22:01debating the idea
22:02of you have a character,
22:03a ghost,
22:04who is there
22:05to provide comfort.
22:06You have another character,
22:07the Frenchman,
22:07who, in general,
22:08is there for accountability.
22:10Yeah.
22:12Wants this oil tycoon
22:13to face some sort
22:14of retribution
22:15or at least guilt
22:16and understanding
22:17on their deathbed.
22:18Yeah.
22:18Like, where do you
22:19come down on that
22:20of offering comfort?
22:22What does that mean to you?
22:22Well, for me,
22:23the whole book
22:23was kind of
22:25exporting of my own
22:26mental stuff,
22:27like as a career.
22:28Is this for people
22:28at all?
22:29Or is this just
22:31your own therapy
22:32that you're profiting
22:32off of, George?
22:33Yeah.
22:34Wow.
22:35It's a good gig
22:35if you can get it.
22:36But, you know,
22:37the idea that,
22:38like, as a career-long
22:39liberal, you know,
22:40slightly left of Gandhi,
22:43you know,
22:44I want to forgive everybody.
22:46We get it.
22:48I want to forgive everybody.
22:49You know,
22:49and this one ghost,
22:51Jill,
22:52her point of view is,
22:53you know,
22:54none of us in the womb
22:55had a checklist
22:56of the way we wanted
22:57to be when we were born.
22:58So if it turns out
22:59that you were lucky
23:00and intelligent
23:01and articulate
23:01and all those things,
23:02that's great for you,
23:03but it isn't necessarily
23:04a given.
23:05So therefore,
23:05the proper relation
23:07to people
23:07is be merciful
23:09when they're wrong.
23:10Don't be too triumphant
23:11when you're right.
23:12You know,
23:12so she's kind of an angel.
23:14She's kind of
23:14a very spiritual being,
23:16but she's also
23:16really bad at her job.
23:19So for me,
23:20it became a debate
23:21about, like,
23:21you know,
23:22like, liberals
23:23like myself,
23:26you know,
23:26if somebody
23:28hits you in the head
23:28with a rock,
23:29you're like,
23:29oh, thank you
23:30for the geology lesson.
23:31You know?
23:33But I know
23:33that's not serving us
23:35very well now.
23:35You've got to have
23:36some spine.
23:37So the Frenchman
23:37is somebody who says,
23:38sure,
23:38you can forgive,
23:39but first you have
23:40to make people confess
23:41and you have to reduce them
23:43to a place of honesty
23:43and then you can start
23:44talking about repentance.
23:46How do you see that?
23:47I mean,
23:47in this day and age,
23:48I read that
23:48and I want to be somebody
23:51who is like Jill,
23:53this character
23:53who wants to comfort
23:54and see,
23:55use a wonderful phrase
23:56that their existence
23:57and who they are
23:58is inevitable
23:59because of the circumstances
24:01that they are in.
24:02But then you see
24:03that up against somebody
24:04who's a climate denier
24:05and caused a lot of havoc
24:06in this world
24:07and I do
24:08in this day and age
24:09that is so devoid
24:11of accountability.
24:12Like,
24:12I look to these characters
24:13and I wonder
24:13how much grace
24:15we should accord
24:17people who have done
24:17such terrible things.
24:18Well,
24:19I mean,
24:19the ultimate grace,
24:20I think,
24:20is to hold somebody
24:21to say,
24:22what you're doing
24:23is cruel
24:24and you can't
24:25just keep doing it
24:26and we're going
24:26to stop you.
24:26So for me,
24:27like Minneapolis
24:28was a beautiful example
24:29of people saying,
24:30we're not going
24:30to become violent
24:31but we're going
24:31to stop this.
24:32And so to me,
24:33there's no real divide
24:35between compassion
24:36and firmness
24:37if you do it right
24:38because God knows,
24:39I mean,
24:39if you're,
24:40you know,
24:40list of people
24:42in the Trump administration,
24:44this isn't good for you.
24:45You know,
24:46I heard a Buddhist teacher
24:47say,
24:47I wouldn't wish
24:48their situation
24:49on my worst enemy
24:51because of the karma
24:52or the sin
24:53that they're accruing.
24:54So in a certain way,
24:55I think to be firm
24:56and for me,
24:57the whole thing
24:58is in this really
24:58confusing shit show
25:00to say,
25:01do I still have
25:01any clarity
25:02about what I really believe?
25:03Do I still believe
25:04in truth?
25:04Do I still believe
25:05in love?
25:06Do I still believe
25:06in community?
25:08For me,
25:08I'm thinking like
25:09the big job
25:09is to keep
25:11that clear
25:12in my mind.
25:13How do you do that?
25:14Just even stepping away,
25:15I think that is a question
25:17I'm asking every day.
25:18Yeah, yeah.
25:19And I mean,
25:20I hate to say it
25:21but when I go
25:22and I talk to people,
25:23both political
25:23and also friends,
25:24people are having
25:25a miserable time right now.
25:26Yeah.
25:27The world is on fire.
25:29There is a war.
25:30We see cruelty celebrated.
25:32We are constantly
25:34inundated with misinformation
25:35in ways that make us
25:36only angry and frustrated.
25:38It's hard to find
25:39that light.
25:41Yeah.
25:41Where do you see that?
25:43You mentioned Buddhism.
25:44Is that a path
25:44that you have founded in?
25:46Is it writing books
25:47and then making money
25:48off of it?
25:48It sounds like
25:48that's also effective for you.
25:50It works for everybody.
25:51Yeah, okay.
25:52No, I think,
25:52I mean,
25:52there's this old parable
25:54about a kingdom
25:55that only had one will
25:57and for some reason,
26:00a witch
26:00or somebody poisoned the well
26:02such that when the people
26:03drank the water
26:04they would go insane
26:05and so the king
26:06who lived up on the hill
26:07as kings do,
26:08he had his own well.
26:09Looking down on people
26:10again is the best vantage point.
26:11Yeah.
26:12But he had his own well
26:13so the whole kingdom
26:15is going insane
26:16and he's got the
26:17clean water up there
26:18and in the parable
26:19the decision is
26:19does he drink the water
26:21become insane
26:22and thereby be able
26:23to rule his people
26:25and in the parable
26:26he does.
26:26He goes as crazy as he is.
26:28In our time
26:29I think the trick is
26:29to recognize
26:31the clean water
26:31in whatever way you can.
26:32For me it's writing.
26:33You know,
26:34fiction works
26:36the way I would say it is
26:37a good book
26:38is a series of moments
26:40in which the reader
26:41recognizes herself
26:42on the page,
26:42her experience
26:43and her heart rises to it
26:45and she's engaged
26:46and this goes on and on
26:47and there's some told love
26:48that two people
26:49who don't know each other
26:50have reassured one another
26:52of their mutual humanity.
26:53So you feel,
26:55hopefully reading my book,
26:56you feel that I believe
26:58you're as real as I am
26:59and vice versa.
27:00So I think that's a
27:00it's a small thing
27:02but for me it's really helpful
27:03to every day go
27:05I know shit when I see it,
27:07I know Shinola,
27:08whatever that is,
27:09when I see it.
27:10But you know,
27:11but I think in this time
27:12you know,
27:12this fever is going to break
27:14because these are
27:15a bunch of incompetents
27:17it's like,
27:17it's like we took the,
27:18the,
27:19the,
27:20You feel so?
27:21You have hope?
27:22You see that?
27:23I,
27:23I,
27:24somehow,
27:25I think what happened
27:25was we took the most
27:26pugilistic,
27:27simplistic,
27:28uh,
27:29strange people
27:29in the high school
27:30and put them in charge
27:31of the prom.
27:32You know?
27:33But I,
27:33but I mean,
27:34But people got behind that.
27:35They did and,
27:36they did and that to me
27:37is the,
27:37the one thing
27:38sort of intellectually
27:40I'm trying to work on
27:40is how did that happen?
27:42You know,
27:42that so many people,
27:43many of whom I know
27:44and like,
27:45and I know you've met
27:46a good many,
27:46how did they make
27:47that decision?
27:48And that,
27:48that I don't know.
27:50You,
27:50you wrote an amazing essay,
27:51uh,
27:52in the New Yorker
27:52in 2016.
27:53You went to MAGA rallies,
27:55uh,
27:55at events to sort of
27:57take a look
27:58at what was happening
27:59to America
27:59at that time.
28:00and,
28:01and you ended it,
28:02uh,
28:03questioning,
28:03I'm paraphrasing here,
28:04but that you saw America
28:05as a fragile place
28:06and you feared,
28:07you never thought
28:08it could potentially,
28:10uh,
28:11dissolve
28:11or crumble
28:12in your lifetime
28:13and you were
28:14questioning that then.
28:16Yeah.
28:16We are now in 2026.
28:18Like,
28:19Yeah.
28:19Is there any addendums
28:20to that feeling?
28:21No,
28:22no,
28:22I'm still going,
28:22what's happening?
28:23Was it?
28:24Yeah.
28:24No,
28:24I mean,
28:24the one thing
28:25that struck me,
28:26uh,
28:26on that,
28:27it was in 2016
28:28and I went to four
28:28or five rallies
28:29and I just couldn't
28:30believe the extent
28:31of the siloing,
28:32you know,
28:32like I,
28:33so I write for the New Yorker
28:34and sometimes in a moment
28:35of weakness,
28:35I might drop that fact
28:36at a party,
28:37you know,
28:37just to feel better
28:38about myself.
28:40Thank you for admitting
28:41that.
28:41So many people come
28:42on the show,
28:43they don't admit it.
28:45But so I'm at these rallies
28:46and I'm feeling very insecure,
28:47you know,
28:48because I mean,
28:48Yeah,
28:48that doesn't get you very far
28:49in a Trump rally.
28:50Trust me.
28:50That's right,
28:51yeah.
28:51Yeah.
28:52I don't feel so good.
28:55Do you know David Remnick?
28:56Do you know him?
28:58Jill Lepore?
28:59Yeah.
28:59Do you?
28:59It doesn't get you anywhere.
29:00Well,
29:00and this,
29:01I mean,
29:01kind of the anti-punch line
29:02is not a single person
29:03knew what it was,
29:05which is fair enough,
29:06but I'd never before
29:06realized how divided we were
29:08and so I think part of the,
29:09the answer to this
29:10is that we're getting
29:11different media fees.
29:12Like I said somewhere that,
29:13you know,
29:14if I go to fight
29:14with my anti-Trump uncle,
29:16we could just put
29:17two TVs in there,
29:19you know,
29:19put Fox on this one
29:20MSNBC and this one
29:21and we could leave the room
29:22and talk about something
29:22we know something about,
29:24you know.
29:25So there's something
29:25going on there,
29:26but I think the first order
29:27of business is to be firm
29:28in what we know is right
29:29and in our highest vision
29:31of the country,
29:32which is everybody's welcome.
29:34When you're here,
29:34you're going to get
29:35all the rights,
29:36you're going to get
29:36every right
29:36and I'm going to fight
29:37for them no matter
29:38who you are,
29:38what you are.
29:39Those are pretty good ideas
29:40and they've been,
29:41been corrupted by this crew,
29:42but,
29:43but I think that
29:43it's going to fall away
29:45and then my kind of,
29:46I had a Buddhist teacher
29:47once who said
29:49despair is a more dangerous
29:50emotion than even anger.
29:52So to keep myself
29:53out of despair,
29:54I'm saying,
29:54well,
29:54when this crumbles
29:55and it's going to do so
29:56and it's going to be
29:57pretty catastrophic,
29:59then those of us
29:59who are of the spirit
30:00could fill the void
30:02with an even better version
30:04because this thing is now,
30:05it's been discredited
30:06in so many ways
30:07and it's just,
30:07it's basically standing up
30:08on one very shaky leg
30:09and it's going to,
30:10it's going to go down.
30:11It's going to go down.
30:11I think so.
30:12That's my prediction.
30:13George Sonders,
30:14I got to tell you,
30:14it truly is,
30:16it is a,
30:19a wonderful book
30:20from one of the,
30:21one of my favorite minds
30:22in this good old strange
30:23beautiful country
30:25with bad water
30:25but there's good water
30:26out there somewhere.
30:27There is.
30:27George Sonders,
30:28everybody.
30:29Your book is a big one.
30:30Go get it.
30:31We're going to take a quick break.
30:32Be right back after that.
Comments