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00:03I'm Steve Keogh a former Scotland Yard murder detective inspector I'm going to take you deep
00:10inside murder investigations opening my contacts book for the first time to reveal the secrets of
00:19what it really takes to be a murder detective on the front line exposing how we solve the most
00:24heinous of crimes welcome to secrets of a murder detective the murder of Milton Papadopoulos in
00:50October 2014 was one of Hartfordshire's most challenging cases I'm going to be meeting the
00:56senior investigating officers on the case to reveal what really happened the pressures the
01:00setbacks and the methods in the investigation that brought the killers to justice my name is
01:09Joe and in 2014 I was a detective chief inspector on a major crime unit so this was a particularly
01:19challenging investigation because at the outset there was no motive or apparent cause of death
01:31so lovely to meet you likewise Joe the case we're going to be talking about today is from October
01:412014 what were you doing back then what was your role I had literally just landed on the major crime
01:48unit so in terms of major crime it's got a different name all around the country yeah and the most
01:53work
01:54on MIT team yeah it's the same thing essentially isn't it I mean people call it murder but it's not
01:58just
01:58murder yeah it's all your serious crime and you murder rapes kidnapping extortion a call came into
02:04Hertfordshire police yeah can you tell me about that come in in the evening that evening by a ambulance
02:12three nines into our hearts control room and our on-call SIO had been alerted to the incident I think
02:20it
02:20had been reported as a unexplained or suspicious death by the initial attending officers this incident was in in
02:35Potspur in Hertfordshire an affluent area kind of bordering with London it was a private exclusive
02:44residential street probably about 10 houses within the sort of coldy sack so I established that the
02:55victim was Milton Papadopoulos a Greek male who lived at the address on his own we obviously very quickly
03:04established who Milton's family were and he had I think in fact it was his sister that unfortunately
03:12found Milton at the address so it's a large home four or five bedroom detached I walk into the hallway
03:24the
03:25first thing that strikes me as I walk through the door is the overwhelming smell of bleach and cleaning
03:30fluid which is unusual you walk into the large living room and there is signs of searching so there's
03:45cupboards open there's covers ripped off there's things in situ that if you thought it may have been a
03:53potential burglary are still there so the victim's laptop's there his phone's there there's equipment
04:02there cameras there's some drug paraphernalia and some drugs and then at the other side of the living
04:09room there's a kind of mock fire and the victim is in front of that mock fire he has what
04:20appear to
04:20be linear marks on his wrists when you say linear marks sorry kind of like marks where someone's been
04:29tied up on his wrists and his ankles and he's got what looks like a little bit of bruising to
04:38his face
04:39and then into the kitchen there's kitchen cupboards open again there's bleach and as we go upstairs the
04:48victim's bedroom has been extensively searched drawers pulled out clothes thrown all over we know
04:56that the victim owned watches and collected watches and at the time when we searched and we'd spoken to
05:05the family we were aware that there was an outstanding watch and then where you're talking about the spraying of
05:12bleach that is really unusual yeah it's not the sort of method that your average burglar would use is it
05:20no a hundred percent yeah yeah spidey sensors are going off joe describe to me the work that was carried
05:26out by the forensic team at milton's home so the crime scene manager along with the scenes of crime
05:33officers they will go through a process from start to finish and that would involve photography that
05:41would involve taping areas that they identifies potential forensic marks fingerprints footprints areas of
05:52potential DNA and they'll video the scene too so there'll be a 360 video of the scene to capture that
06:02before obviously anything's disturbed or moved you could have looked at photographs of the scene but
06:09I wouldn't have replicated what you're doing here would it so it's such an important element to your
06:13investigation isn't it I couldn't imagine not going to a scene of a crime that I'm going to be
06:19investigating because all your senses are heightened at a scene you know your smell smell your sight you know
06:26your hearing this was my first case within the major crime unit I've got to say and and even the
06:34SIO that
06:35attended on the night who was a really experienced SIO we were both slightly flummoxed by the scene as was
06:41the
06:41crime scene manager it was a really difficult scene to interpret so it's really healthy to have a few
06:49hypotheses in terms of what you think has happened at that scene this could have been a burglary that's gone
06:56wrong there was evidence of drug paraphernalia in the address is a drug overdose induced by the victim
07:04himself or could it have been a potential drug dealer that's come in has there been a drug debt or
07:12is
07:13there a natural cause is there a natural reason for why the victim is dead in the UK if somebody
07:21dies suddenly the police have to attend and the reason for that is to get to the bottom of why
07:28the
07:28person died and to ensure that nothing suspicious has happened and if they believe that a death is
07:34suspicious then it will be escalated to a murder investigation team now if there's any doubts if
07:42there's some debate about well this could or couldn't be the scene will be treated as if it is a
07:47murder
07:48because what you can't do is get that back later on so the death will be treated as suspicious until
07:55it
07:55can be proven otherwise but then it's about preserving the evidence at the scene it's about identifying
08:08witnesses and it's about identifying suspects so that's your kind of start of a ten there's a
08:16saying in murder investigation to understand how a person died you have to understand that they lived
08:21another way of explaining that is victimology so this would be an important step for you at the
08:27scene to understand the victim who was he so Milton Papadopoulos he was 41 year old Greek male he was
08:41from a very
08:42loving family a wealthy family and Milton himself was a wealthy man he had several businesses which he ran
08:52with partners he lived alone he'd recently gone through a breakup in a relationship and I think that
09:03has significant impact on him I think he'd been in that relationship a while and his lifestyle as was at
09:11the time and described by his parents declined his family were aware that he'd started taking drugs he was
09:23gambling online spending lots of money and he was becoming quite nocturnal when we did house to house
09:33inquiries there were reports that there had been incidents at the address of people turning up you know
09:40at varying times of the day potentially you know supplying Milton whenever anybody dies suddenly there will
09:49be a post-mortem yeah but if there's suspicion that it could be a murder then it will be done
09:54by forensic
09:55pathologists and there's a lot more thorough than a normal post-mortem yeah and that's going to be a very
10:00crucial time for you isn't it the pathologist couldn't rule out natural cause couldn't rule out anything around
10:08drug overdose accidental or not one of the pathologists theories was that it could potentially be a
10:17smothering but there were other explanations and he did note the injuries to Milton's hands and ankles so
10:24some kind of rope or cable tie or you know couldn't specifically say that someone did it so in terms
10:33of
10:33progress for a murder investigation from the post-mortem we didn't have anything
10:43most murders in this country are done by somebody known to the deceased and quite often you've got a
10:49situation where there are only two people in a house and a partner kills another partner it's
10:53perfectly clear who has done it my name is mark fannels king's counsel in October 2015 I was the leading
11:01barrister who prosecuted the murder trial relating to Milton Papadopoulos this case was very different
11:09for the police this was genuinely at the beginning a whodunit and to start with there was some uncertainty
11:15the police felt as to whether or not he died of natural causes or had indeed died at the hands
11:23of
11:23others but you're in a bit of limbo essentially at this early stage so you don't know which way it's
11:30going to go do you no I think instinctively right from the beginning I felt that it was a murder
11:36there
11:37were varying opinions on the case as to who actually agreed with me so it was a bit even within
11:44my team
11:45there was split view on those early days as to whether it was a murder or not I think there
11:51were
11:51senior officers that weren't convinced it was a murder you know two or three of those hypotheses
11:55were was this a accidental death was it an overdose so very very difficult until you get to the point
12:04where you have absolute evidence to prove that it's a murder then there is pressure and there is always
12:09pressure on the SIO from your superiors and from senior officers rightly so because this is a public
12:17purse we're spending and you know we've got to be shown that we are diligent and that we are progressing
12:24the investigation that we are doing everything we need to do we did have some marks from the scene
12:31I think they had four or five marks blood marks and we had some swabs taken from Milton from the
12:39post-mortem that showed on DNA so we had swabs from Milton that actually were outstanding DNA markers so
12:50effectively someone has touched Milton we don't know who's touched him the problem with DNA and it
12:57being so sensitive an ambulance yeah person was to have looked at him or a police officer or a family
13:04member they could leave their own DNA on him so loaded onto the DNA database yeah any result on that
13:12so essentially whoever that blood belonged to wasn't related to Milton no and had never been arrested
13:21before and provided their DNA yes correct so I came away feeling I don't really know I don't know what
13:29the
13:29events were that led up to the victims death it's a fact that murders can be miscategorized and there
13:49can be a number of reasons for that one could be the killer staging a crime to make it look
13:55like something
13:55else maybe an accident or a suicide another reason could be that there isn't an obvious cause of
14:03death not all murders jump out you when you're a crime scene not everyone's stabbed not everyone's
14:08shot and it's those crimes that can be mistaken and when we look at Milton's death particularly when we
14:16enter into the realms of drug use I can see a scenario where his death was put down to some
14:24kind of
14:25misadventure to do with the drugs which would have allowed those killers to get away with what they
14:32did to him you're treating Milton's death as a murder so within a murder investigation there'll be different
14:43strands of investigation and in general there are five main parts to that there would be CCTV witnesses
14:55phones as in mobile phones telephones forensics and intelligence so if we go through those
15:02separately maybe if we start with CCTV was there anything in and around Milton's home that give
15:09you a clue as to the comings and goings there no we didn't have we had no footage at all
15:14what about in
15:15terms of witnesses so obviously one of the main lines of inquiry is going house to house and actually
15:21the house to house was what uncovered our one and only significant witness the witness from the house
15:33to house had been at home when she had heard a vehicle pull up outside Milton's address and had heard
15:40somebody knocking on the door the witness heard Milton answer the door and say to whoever was at
15:45the door go away you're not allowed to come in or words to that effect which indicates that potentially he
15:52knew who
15:53the individual or individuals were at the door she then says that she heard what she describes as Milton piercingly
16:02screaming
16:05so with this she actually phones her mum and says mum I think there's something going on next door but
16:13her mum actually said take a picture of the vehicle that's parked outside
16:17wow which was absolutely critical so what did the image show so the image showed a white van parked outside
16:28Milton's address at around about the time that we believed that the murder took place and it showed the registration
16:36plate of the vehicle so that now becomes the main line of inquiry and obviously
16:43it was identified very quickly that those plates were false so yeah our focus really became on at that time
16:51on that vehicle what is the true identity of that vehicle who is the owner of that vehicle
16:57and where has that vehicle come from to end up in that location at the time of Milton's death
17:05it was a golden nugget moment as we call it you know when you get those little nuggets that you
17:11need just to push you on for moving on to the next stage of the investigation
17:17one of the important elements of any murder investigation is to build yourself a good timeline
17:23yeah
17:23yeah
17:24and a good way of doing that is to base it around telephones
17:28yeah we did start looking at Milton's phone we did a lot of work on the phone and we did
17:36a lot of work on unknown numbers to try and locate
17:43if I'm looking at a perpetrator's mobile phone or computer quite often will be briefed by the SIO as to
17:52what they're looking for
17:54my name is Chris Watts I've now been working in digital forensics for 35 years
17:59I've covered murders IP theft rape and indecent images of children
18:09if I was looking at a victim's mobile phone or computer I would be looking for any connection to suspect
18:17look for any reasons why the victim may have been attacked
18:21what is their history what is their background
18:25are they involved in drugs do they own people money
18:29have they been threatened what emails have been sent what have been received
18:40was there any indication that would help you in your investigation
18:43very little
18:44Joe when there's an unexplained death and a post-mortem takes place
18:48there will be certain tests that will be carried out
18:51one of those would be take blood from the dead person send it off and check for toxicology
18:58I'm assuming that took place
19:01yes it did yes
19:03but the levels of drug in Milton's system were at a level that would not have caused his death
19:09it still left the theory of potential smothering
19:14um and obviously a being murdered by a third party
19:20it was frustrating for the team to determine how Milton died
19:26and of course the family really want to know how Milton died
19:30and if someone is responsible for his death
19:33and we felt huge pressure
19:34you know internally self pressure
19:39you know to we want to do a job for the family
19:42you know we want to determine what happened here
19:45so there is a structured review process
19:48uh within a murder investigation
19:50so within seven days you are being reviewed
19:53um in terms of where the investigation is
19:58so huge pressure on me as an SIO
20:02you know because murder inquiries are resource intensive
20:05I mean you're probably talking on a murder inquiry
20:1120 to 30 maybe more you know on that full time
20:15you're still doing a new job that you don't want to be
20:18you don't want to be rocking the boat in your first week
20:19yeah no absolutely
20:20at one point very early on there was a question over whether this should go to a more experienced SIO
20:26which is a valid you know question because it was a difficult investigation
20:30and I absolutely begged and pleaded with the you know senior managers to keep it
20:36because I was invested in it
20:37I was invested in the family
20:39I fully fully understand why you did that
20:41yeah not in an arrogant way
20:43we absolutely would one way or another find out what happened to Milton
20:48and that's what for me it was all about
20:58just looking for that golden nugget
21:00that little bit of information
21:02that's just gonna help you start to crack the case
21:06or start to uncover that sequence of events
21:11yeah there was a lot of work going on in the background
21:13a lot of intelligence coming in
21:15a lot of investigative work going on
21:17in relation to identifying the suspects
21:23when working on high profile cases
21:26the line of communication is generally kept open
21:29so that the SIO or nominated individual
21:32can contact the investigator very easily by phone
21:38because quite often these investigations are fast moving
21:41and a piece of data may become known
21:43and require urgent investigation
21:47in the case of Milton Papadopoulos
21:49the police used mobile phone data
21:52call data records and ANPR
21:56thanks to the actions of Milton's neighbour
21:57if there was some third party involvement in his death
22:02you had a clue as to who this may be
22:04you had this van
22:06on the one hand it was a brilliant piece of evidence
22:09in terms of potentially identifying them
22:11but on the other it was on false plates
22:12which was going to make it difficult
22:14to identify the true identity of the van
22:16yeah
22:17how did you go around achieving that?
22:20you'll have ANPR cameras that will record vehicles
22:24it was a two part inquiry
22:27so painstaking work
22:29I mean it's a white van
22:31on the outskirts of London
22:33travelling during the day
22:35how many white vans
22:36do you think are travelling through London?
22:40so it was the CCTV teams working painstakingly
22:47to go back from Potter's Bar
22:51to take that vehicle back
22:53to try and find where that vehicle came from originally
22:56you might have road work cameras
22:59you might have speed cameras
23:01people work
23:02you know you might have where they're working
23:03on the road cameras
23:05was there anything outstanding about the van?
23:08was there any markings on it?
23:10wording down the side?
23:11anything like that?
23:12no
23:12the only thing was the ladders
23:14yeah
23:14so if you're looking for ladders
23:16you can rule out the vans
23:17that don't have the ladders
23:18yeah
23:18but it's still painstaking work
23:20still a lot of
23:20a lot of vehicles
23:21and when you find that vehicle
23:24it's proven that that is actually that vehicle
23:26because it's back on its original plate
23:28so when it was on its original plate
23:30at what point did it switch to a false plate?
23:34did that happen?
23:35yes
23:37tell me about that
23:38absolute hours of trolling that CCTV
23:42and then plotting that vehicle back to when it switched plate
23:48then of course you've got the opportunity for a registered keeper
23:53well if it's registered
23:54you know we're going to have an address for this vehicle now
23:56how did it feel when that happened?
23:59yeah I mean it
24:00you know it's those breakthroughs in an investigation are absolutely
24:04you know they fire the team up
24:08with painstaking CCTV work from the location of that address
24:13we had to send a team up to Dorset to work with the local force there
24:17the owner of the vehicle was initially spoken to and treated as a witness
24:24because it was very quickly established that the owner had lent his vehicle
24:30to a known associate of the gentleman known as Arcadia Sarkoski
24:36we referred to this individual as Arc during the investigation
24:40then we began background work, intelligence work
24:44trying to establish who Arc was
24:47and then any associates that he may have
24:51through the intelligence work we found out that he was part of a larger organized crime group
24:58originally from Poland but that he was living with his family in and around the London area
25:06we then looked to arrest Eric
25:12so Eric what did you find out about him?
25:16so Eric was not known to us in the UK
25:21completely under the radar
25:24at that point obviously we didn't know who his associates were
25:29because we hadn't done any phone work
25:32because we'd only just identified him
25:35so following Eric's arrest
25:37the main lines of inquiry then are centering around Eric
25:42around his movements
25:43around his associates
25:45around his vehicles
25:48and getting information from overseas
25:51with our Polish colleagues
25:54in terms of previous convictions
25:56and previous court cases
25:59is a challenging and a lengthy process
26:03but actually when we did get that information
26:06it was clear we were dealing with
26:10a organized crime group from Poland
26:13that had infiltrated into the UK
26:15and were dealing in drugs
26:27Milton came from a good background
26:30a wealthy background
26:31but his life took a downturn
26:34he found himself in a situation he wasn't accustomed to
26:38it was almost like a jungle he was now in
26:41a jungle where people would target
26:44people like Milton for his wealth
26:47the people that came to his house that night
26:50wouldn't have given it a second thought
26:52to hurt him
26:54to get that wealth from him
27:01you know
27:02you know
27:03presented to you information
27:04that suggests that Eric
27:06was in and around the area of Milton's home
27:09yes
27:10not immediately
27:11and it did take
27:13you know quite some time
27:17sometimes
27:18criminals make mistakes
27:20and when you look at a computer
27:22or a mobile phone
27:23you can find
27:24a nugget of information
27:26a nugget of evidence
27:27in the case of Milton's murder
27:30we had a suspect
27:32we were able to get hold of that person's phone
27:36then used the call data records
27:39and call logs on the phone
27:40to confirm that
27:42that the suspect had been
27:45in the area of Milton's home
27:47at the time of the murder
27:50I know that he denied
27:53any knowledge of Milton
27:55or Milton's address
27:56or Milton's family
27:58during his interviews
27:59obviously gave us no information
28:02in relation to
28:03anyone else associated with that vehicle
28:06and really tried to distance himself
28:08from that vehicle
28:11we
28:12clearly had outstanding
28:13DNA samples at the scene
28:15that we were keen
28:17to match
28:18to somebody
28:19one of the first things we did
28:20when Eric was brought into custody
28:22was fast track his DNA
28:23for the outstanding samples
28:26that we had at the scene
28:27he was negative
28:28against
28:29any of those samples at the scene
28:31which as a SIO
28:34frustratingly
28:34the first lead we have
28:36identifying Eric
28:37and arresting Eric
28:38we were in a position
28:40where we didn't have sufficient evidence
28:42to charge him
28:42at that time
28:43and so he was released on bail
28:47the phone work was immense
28:49and once we had Eric's phone
28:53we were able to identify
28:55common users
28:57common callers
28:58so your task now
28:59is to try and identify
29:00the users of these phones
29:03how did you go about doing that?
29:04so the difficulty
29:05with once you have phone numbers
29:07is the attribution
29:08to an individual
29:10because
29:10most people
29:11will have a
29:13a monthly contract
29:14be registered to them
29:15and it will be at their address
29:16criminals don't tend to
29:18have those kind of phones
29:20they tend to have phones
29:21that are
29:22easily disposable
29:25so we had
29:27all the phone numbers
29:29for the suspects
29:31we just didn't have any names
29:33to put to the phone
29:34at that point
29:35so
29:37what we actually find
29:39or one of the detectives
29:41finds out
29:41is that Eric
29:42has been involved in
29:43some sort of
29:44road traffic accident
29:46and
29:47this was
29:47some months
29:48previous
29:50Eric
29:50who was driving at the time
29:52had
29:52been at fault
29:53and had offered
29:54to pay
29:55there and then
29:57for the damage
29:58and
29:59was described as
30:00you know
30:00coming out with wads of money
30:02when
30:03the
30:04gentleman
30:04that was involved
30:05in the accident
30:07spoke to
30:09Eric
30:09and his occupant
30:11he asked for
30:12identification
30:13because he felt
30:14a little concerned
30:15about
30:15who he was taking money from
30:17and who he was dealing with
30:18so he actually
30:19took photographs
30:20of
30:21the driving licences
30:22of Eric
30:23and the driving licence
30:25of the passenger
30:26and the driving licence
30:28of the passenger
30:29was a man
30:30by the name
30:31of Sebastian Kimmel
30:32who became
30:33our
30:34second
30:34suspect
30:35so now you have to build up
30:38a
30:38intelligence picture
30:40of
30:40Kimmel
30:41what was that telling you
30:43so
30:43Sebastian Kimmel
30:45was an associate
30:45of Eric
30:46again
30:47he was
30:48living
30:49in London
30:50unknown
30:50to UK policing
30:52he lived there
30:53with his family
30:54the young family
30:55he was again
30:56a Polish national
30:57both were known
30:58in Poland
30:59they
31:00were
31:01and had been part
31:02of a serious
31:03organized crime group
31:04in Poland
31:05responsible for drug trafficking
31:07Kimmel
31:08had
31:09a previous conviction
31:11for being
31:12in possession
31:12of explosives
31:13and
31:14some
31:15significant
31:16assault
31:17charges
31:18against Kimmel
31:19so we knew
31:21at this point
31:22that we were dealing
31:24with
31:24a serious
31:25individual
31:26particularly Kimmel
31:29a
31:29so that
31:30kind of
31:30changed the
31:31arrest strategy
31:32somewhat
31:32a lot
31:33it's quite frightening
31:33isn't it
31:34yeah
31:41knowing what we knew
31:43about
31:43Sebastian
31:45we knew
31:46we knew
31:46that in terms of
31:46an arrest
31:47strategy
31:48it was gonna have to be
31:49planned
31:50it was gonna have to be
31:51supported
31:52with colleagues
31:53from London
31:54because at this point
31:56we knew we were dealing
31:57with a dangerous
31:58individual
31:59individual
32:00so
32:01the arrest
32:03was
32:03executed
32:06without
32:07incident
32:08interestingly
32:09when
32:10the team
32:11went through
32:12Sebastian Kimmel's
32:13door
32:14he immediately put himself
32:16on the floor
32:16door
32:17and put his hands
32:18behind his back
32:20which
32:21was
32:22unusual
32:23at his address
32:24there were
32:26significant
32:27volume
32:28of mobile phones
32:30um
32:31burner phones
32:32as we call them
32:33so he was arrested
32:34in around the London area
32:36he was brought directly
32:37back
32:38to Hertfordshire
32:39and
32:40the priority
32:41at this time
32:42was
32:43the DNA
32:43because
32:44we were still
32:45trying to match
32:46a suspect
32:47to our scene
32:49so the absolute
32:51priority was
32:52to get that
32:52sample from
32:54Sebastian
32:54and to
32:56establish
32:56if we had a match
32:57at the scene
32:58so fast-track
32:59DNA
33:00he gets interviewed
33:01for three days
33:03because we get extended
33:03custody
33:04time limits
33:05so the blood
33:06that's within
33:08the footmark
33:09yes
33:10in Milton's house
33:11comes back to Sebastian
33:12Kimmel
33:13same person
33:14how did that feel
33:15um
33:16euphoric
33:17that was the
33:19moment
33:20when
33:21we knew
33:22that we got a case
33:24we knew we got the right people
33:26I mean
33:27just
33:28over the moon
33:29for the team
33:30for the family
33:31um
33:33for my career
33:36um
33:36no
33:37you know
33:38it was a real
33:38you say that as a flippant remark
33:41but
33:42you've
33:42you've dug your heels in
33:44yeah
33:45when early on
33:47people
33:48were trying to push you in a very different direction
33:50yeah
33:51I've always been a bit like that though
33:53I've always kind of
33:54stuck my neck out if I think I'm doing the right thing
33:58I joined in 1989
34:00so I was 19 years of age
34:03so I was very very young
34:05yeah
34:06and it was predominantly a male environment at that time
34:09without a shadow of a doubt
34:10remember
34:11at the time
34:13your uniform issue was effectively
34:15a skirt
34:17uh
34:17clots
34:18tights or stockings
34:20you know
34:21and you'd be on a foot chase with somebody in a skirt
34:23trying to jump over a fence
34:25you know
34:25it's it's not
34:26it's not the greatest uh thing
34:28I mean
34:281989
34:29we didn't have quick cuffs
34:30we didn't have
34:31spray
34:32you know
34:33we didn't have taser
34:34so I was literally handed a
34:36a baton
34:37uh
34:38which was
34:39literally that size
34:40and then I was issued with a handbag to put it in
34:43uh
34:44whilst the
34:45uh
34:45my male colleagues were being handed
34:47full size battens
34:48it's a fair
34:49it's a fair balance now
34:50I think
34:51there are so many women
34:52senior women
34:53you know
34:53much more senior than I was in policing now
34:56things are very different to how they were
34:58you've got that
34:59100% match with
35:02Kimmel
35:02and the blood in Milton's house
35:04when we disclosed the DNA results
35:07he obviously broke the time of the solicitor
35:10and came back with a prepared statement
35:12his account was that he had gone to the address to collect a drug debt
35:16and that on entering the premises Milton had become aggressive
35:19aggressive and a struggle had ensued
35:22where
35:24Kimmel and an unknown male who he refused to name
35:27had
35:27restrained Milton
35:29whilst restraining him
35:32Kimmel had become aware that he was struggling to breathe
35:34he says that he put Milton in the recovery position
35:39went and washed his face because during the melee he took a hit to the face
35:44where he got a nosebleed
35:47and as far as he was concerned when they left the premises Milton was alive
35:50but for Kimmel
35:51there's my prepared statement
35:53yeah
35:53that's all you have in
35:54no more
35:55and er
35:56subsequently charged
35:58and
35:59not given bail
36:00and you've not just got the right people you've got some horrible people
36:04yeah
36:04and now I'm going to lock them up
36:06but before we lock them up we're going to find out
36:09who else was with them
36:11because we knew there were others
36:13we identified a third suspect Christoph Turledge
36:18he was identified as the person responsible for the theft of the number plates
36:25he was subsequently arrested
36:28he gave no comment to all interviews
36:32he wasn't linked to the scene forensically
36:36but with the evidence at that time that we had
36:39with the phone analysis between him, Sebastian Kimmel and Arik
36:45again we had sufficient at that time
36:49to charge him with conspiracy to murder
36:52so the final suspect was Jacques Grignac
36:57we identified through again the work that had been done already on the phone
37:02and the association and the movement
37:04by the time unfortunately that we had identified him as our suspect
37:09we were made aware by Thames Valley Police
37:13that he had been murdered
37:16during a burglary within the Thames Valley Police area
37:20which was a complete shock for us
37:23because we were setting up for the final arrest
37:26and made things difficult for court
37:30because we've now got four suspects
37:33we've got three defendants going on trial
37:36and one thing as well that we all learn in murder investigations
37:40when you take them to court
37:42if you've got someone who was at the crime scene
37:45but not at court
37:47yeah
37:47it's very easy for everyone else at court to point a finger at that fourth person
37:51yes
37:51and that's always a danger when somebody you know was involved
37:55isn't standing trial with them
37:56yeah
37:57and we did obviously match his DNA
38:00establishing that he was actually at the scene with Sebastian Kimmel
38:05I had three defendants
38:07and they were all pleading not guilty to murder
38:10there was an enormous amount of work to do to get the trial ready
38:15and that's what the police team with the assistance of the CPS
38:18and our barristers in the case
38:20did over the couple of months before September when the trial started
38:37the men that killed Milton were seasoned criminals
38:41they'd been in prison in Poland
38:43they knew how the police worked
38:46and they took steps to mask themselves in terms of being identified
38:51now when you're dealing with criminals like this
38:55undoubtedly it makes your investigation more difficult
38:59because they are taking steps not to be caught
39:04if it wasn't for Joe's ability to stand up for herself
39:07there's a really strong likelihood
39:08that Milton's death would never have been treated as a murder
39:12and those that killed him would have got away with it
39:23you're there day one of the trial
39:25you know that there's no way you can take for granted
39:29that which way the jury are going to go
39:32well it was my first trial at the Old Bailey
39:34yeah seven week trial
39:36I did get to see some of the expert evidence presented and cross-examined
39:42and I've got to see Mark presenting the case
39:44where people are jointly responsible for any alleged crime
39:49the usual preference is to try them together
39:52there are a number of different reasons
39:54one of its practical
39:56if you've got one set of witnesses
39:58why should they give evidence more than once
40:00you know they're entitled to give their evidence once
40:03and be asked questions by all the defendants
40:05and also you want consistent verdicts
40:08and you're much more likely to get that
40:10if you're in a situation where the same jury is making decisions
40:13about everybody who's alleged to be involved
40:16the trial lasted for seven weeks
40:18and during that time we had every expert give evidence
40:23the majority of the evidence came from the analysts
40:27and the forensic work and the CCTV
40:34proving that the vehicle that was at the address
40:37was the said vehicle that we later identified
40:42where's the fourth defendant?
40:44that's going to be the jury's question
40:45and it's not a question we're going to be able to answer
40:48because we're not going to be able to disclose
40:50what's happened to the fourth defendant at that point
40:53because by inference
40:56if they're associated with someone who's been murdered
40:59yeah
40:59it paints a picture of them as
41:02yeah
41:02not everyday people
41:04and potentially could be consciously or subconsciously
41:07used by the jury against them
41:09so it could prejudice the case
41:11um
41:12so that added another twist
41:14right
41:15so there's no doubt
41:16no doubt
41:17that he was at the scene
41:18yeah
41:18but because he's dead
41:19he can't stand trial
41:21and there's always that danger that
41:23they could start blaming him
41:24absolutely
41:25and actually at trial
41:27they all had different counsel
41:30so that's exactly what happened
41:31at trial
41:38they all argued that Mr Riniak
41:42the man who'd been killed in the interim
41:45had been with them
41:47and that he'd gone berserk
41:49and he was responsible for any injuries
41:51that Mr Papadopoulos had suffered
41:52that this was not part of their plan
41:55of course the prosecution position in those circumstances
41:58is very convenient isn't it
42:00you've never said this before
42:01now you've found out that Riniak is dead
42:03you're blaming him
42:05and it means you can point the finger in a different direction
42:09so the different defendants said slightly different things
42:12when it came their turn to advance their cases
42:16Mr Kimmel
42:17his DNA was linked to Mr Papadopoulos
42:19said this was all about a debt collection exercise
42:22that had gone badly wrong
42:24Mr Sarkowski said
42:26that he was less clear about it
42:29there was some internet research
42:30from his internet browser
42:32suggesting he'd been searching for Rolex watches
42:34we know that there was an outstanding Rolex watch
42:38which was valued at between £20,000 and £25,000
42:42that we never recovered
42:46so I was there at the beginning
42:47and kind of the middle and the end
42:48it was pretty long
42:49it was a long
42:50the reason for that was
42:52because of the magnitude of the work
42:54the phone work
42:55and the actual complicated interpretation of that work
42:58for a jury
42:59you know you've really got to break that down
43:01so yeah seven week trial
43:03family came in for verdict
43:06I think they were out for two days the jury
43:10yes
43:11the jury walk in
43:12and the clerk of the court will ask them
43:14yeah
43:14have you reached a verdict on which you all agreed
43:17yeah
43:18what came back
43:19so guilty Kimmel for murder
43:22conspiracy to murder
43:25Arik was found not guilty of murder
43:27but convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy
43:31to rob as was Turledge same as Arik
43:35so those two were sentenced to 13 years
43:40and Kimmel was sentenced to life
43:43had we had the fourth defendant in the box
43:46I would suggest that he would have been sentenced to life equally
43:57people often ask about motives and in this case it seemed most likely that these three
44:04possibly four had targeted Mr Papadopoulos because he was wealthy and lived alone
44:10possibly that they could pretend to get into his house on some pretext or another
44:14and once in there they could overpower him tie him up possibly immobilize him possibly silence him by gagging him
44:21rob him of his watches and then disappear
44:23yeah
44:24I don't think that Milton had a drug debt
44:26I think Milton was a wealthy individual
44:30I don't think finance would have been an issue for Milton
44:33so I think the motive was financial
44:37did they intend to kill Milton when they went into the address?
44:41I don't know
44:42only they know that
44:44did they kill Milton while they were at the address?
44:46yes they did
44:48you came onto the major crime team as a brand new female DCI
44:56undoubtedly the spotlight was going to be on you
44:59it could have been dismissed as a known crime
45:03meaning that Milton wouldn't have got that justice
45:06yeah
45:07but the person that I've met today
45:09I can see that your personality was never ever going to allow that
45:15and yes 100% your team helped you deliver that justice
45:21but without you leading them
45:23I'm convinced that this wouldn't have ended up as it did
45:29the family were grateful
45:30and I just want to say
45:33on behalf of everybody else that is listening to this
45:36thank you for being you
45:41I don't think anyone's ever said I felt quite emotional
45:43I don't think anyone's ever said that to me
45:45you did amazing
45:46thank you
45:51the investigation into Milton's murder was a first that Joe had ever led
45:56I can think back to my time there
45:58and you're determined to show everyone that you can do a good job
46:03for her then to be put into a position where she had to fight to keep the case
46:08and to fight to prove that this was in fact a murder
46:12for me reflects on her personality her determination
46:17and the fact that without her these people could have got away with murder
46:45the decision that can be done
46:49its the reason, the truth is that there is that there is a secret
46:50I have no idea what there is
46:51because I think that there has been an important thing
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