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Malaysia is awaiting the findings of a special investigation into MACC Chief Commissioner Tan Sri Azam Baki’s share ownership, which according to the Government will be presented this week. This controversy has reignited questions about accountability at the country’s top anti-corruption body. With calls growing for a Royal Commission of Inquiry, the Prime Minister says it is still too early to decide. But is the current process enough to restore public confidence, or is a deeper independent probe needed? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with human rights lawyer Charles Hector.
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00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our conversation about
00:15the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission Agency, which is once again under scrutiny as we as a
00:22country await the outcome of an investigation into MACC Chief Commissioner Tansri Azambaki's
00:28shareholding. Now, the question that's being asked right now is, should there be an RCI into MACC,
00:37a Royal Commission of Inquiry on MACC? Joining me on the show now to discuss this further is human
00:43rights lawyer Charles Hector. Charles, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I'm hoping we
00:48can start broad, maybe just set the scene first. When you are looking at this from a bird's eye view,
00:56Charles, what are the concerns of the recent events involving MACC? What has that raised for you?
01:05I think with regards to the issue involving MACC, the shareholding issue is actually a small issue
01:15because it's misconduct. I think the bigger issue is in terms of when allegations are made by third
01:24parties, could be media like Bloomberg and anybody else. For example, in September, Bloomberg reported
01:31that Anwar allegedly instructed MACC Commissioner Azambaki not to investigate Farage in connection to
01:38the share process involving a development of a new billion-rigate immigration system. The report also
01:45claimed that Anwar directed MACC to investigate Tun Mahathir Mohamad, his sons, and long-time associates
01:51time sirening. 12 February, Bloomberg report said the question was raised, who is watching Malaysian
02:00and anti-corruption watchdog. And the issue that was raised, which is concerning, many people are very
02:07concerned about, is that issue about the corporate mafia and the possibility that MACC might be involved
02:17by abusing its powers to help certain businessmen. So these are the two, I think, the issues that must be
02:26addressed first, more than anything else, you know. But unfortunately, in Malaysia and many countries,
02:35the first reaction whenever allegations are made about the law enforcement institutions, the prime minister,
02:42minister and public officers, the response is first a knee-jerk response. Oh, the government cannot do
02:49wrong and therefore, you know, it's all lies. But that should never be the case. In terms of when anybody
02:56raises any information, allegations, suspicions of crime, abuse of power, corruption, whatever it is,
03:03the first duty is to investigate the allegations thoroughly. Because law enforcement is the one who has the
03:11power and the capacity to do a proper comprehensive investigation. That should be the policy. And the
03:22second policy, I think so, in terms of we should not attack the whistleblower, the person who exposes the
03:29crime. Because that is actually going to be deterrent. It will actually deter the public from actually
03:36bravely coming out and exposing some wrong doings of the government or its agencies. But we don't want
03:44that. But in the case of the Bloomberg expose in the first one, what was reported in parliament was that
03:54basically they were investigated for criminal defamation. And finally, the minister informed us in
04:01parliament that the decision has to be made, no further action. But the question is that what's the
04:08allegations that Bloomberg raised in their report ever investigated? That is the question. Even now,
04:17sir, with the reason this thing, Bloomberg's report is fairly detailed with a lot of evidence, naming
04:25naming names, naming situations, and so on and so forth. But the moment now is that still there is no
04:31confirmation whether it's going to be investigated.
04:37I might just jump in here, Charles, and say, so I believe the government has said that there is a
04:44special investigation into the MACC chief's chair ownership. We're all awaiting that report apparently
04:51supposed to come at any time this week. But one of the things I'm curious to know how you feel
04:56is about
04:57the RCI. Do you think that there should be an RCI established to look into this? And I'm curious to
05:07know
05:08what you think an RCI would achieve? Conversely, what it would signal if the government decides against one?
05:15Before going into the RCI, it is sad that the government is just investigating
05:23Azzam's shareholding. Why is it not investigating all the other allegations about the corporate mafia?
05:29That is the bigger concern. Now, in terms of RCI, Royal Commission of Inquiry, it's a very good idea.
05:37You know, and we have the Commission of Inquiry Act 1950. But the problem or the concern is the
05:46composition of the RCI. Who is going to be the commissioners in the RCI? Who picks? Who chooses?
05:54And the second concern is the terms of reference. Because if the RCI is confined to a very minor thing,
06:01that just investigating the shareholding issue, then it's going to be not effective. Then people asking,
06:07what about the other issues, the corporate mafia issue? What about the issue about
06:12the Prime Minister's alleged interference in the MACC? So the RCI should investigate everything.
06:22Not just actually confined to a very limited scope, but everything, including also in terms of MACC.
06:31Because the one question that is raised is who monitors MACC? Remember the last RCI we had about the
06:40police, it was RCI that actually recommended the independent commission to look into the misconduct
06:49and crimes to the police. But the other concern is that after the RCI, will the final report be made
06:59available to the public? Because we all remember the RCI on Wang Klien, mass graves and human trafficking camp.
07:08RCI commenced in 2018, completed their job on 2019 September, submitted their report to the young
07:18di Pertuan Agong, di Pertuan Agong. But the report only became accessible to the public in October 2022.
07:28So the concern is that if you have a RCI, will they come out quickly and actually inform us about
07:35their
07:35findings and recommendations? Or will it be kept a secret? That's also another question on this thing.
07:42And then also in terms of the RCI should be given the power to actually identify whether anyone is criminally
07:51liable for the offense and be able to make recommendation that this person who are criminally liable
08:00be prosecuted. But the question then is asked is that we have had so many RCIs and task force and
08:09even
08:09SWACAM and EIC public inquiry reports. After the report, what happens? Sometimes what is said is that
08:20the law enforcement and prosecution do not actually follow up. Nobody gets charged in court.
08:27So that's the question in terms of the RCI which we must always be
08:34concerned about. So one of the things that you raised that I thought was interesting is that it's
08:40not just about individual controversies. It's not just about individual cases. There's a larger issue
08:46with maybe the governance architecture of MACC. Talk to me about that, about the concerns you have
08:55that recent events have raised for you about MACC. And I do wonder because we have Azam Baki's term ending
09:02in May. And what you think should happen next for MACC post-Azam Baki?
09:10I think in terms of MACC, I think the major concern is that it has to have legal reforms to
09:18make it
09:19independent. The fact now, who is the minister in charge? Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim because it comes
09:26under the prime minister's purview. Who picks the MACC chief? Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim. The five
09:32monitoring bodies, three structure, a jury body for example, Anti-Corruption Advisory Board appointed on the
09:38advice of the prime minister. Special Committee on Corruption, a point nominated by the leader of the
09:44House of Representatives. But look at their role. Their role is to just advise the prime minister
09:50and to make an annual report where the report is also supposed to be circulated in the House of
09:57Parliament. Why annual report? Shouldn't it be actually empowered to make immediate reports whenever
10:03something issues this thing? Then you have the complaints committee appointed by the minister and
10:08the minister again is the prime minister Anwar Ibrahim. So there is a great concern about the
10:14independence of this law enforcement entity. And Malaysia has actually of late are very concerned
10:23about this. We have already talked about the independence of the Malaysian judiciary, how the
10:27judicial appointment, independent judicial appointments commission. We are now looking at the issue of the
10:33independence of the public prosecutor. So the question is that this should be changed. Who should
10:38the point and the point and everything. So this is the need for law reform. Now the second concern with
10:45this
10:45thing is that uh MACC's policy when there is or law enforcement policy when they receive uh a report
10:55allegation they should investigate that first not go after the whistleblower. Sadly in terms of MACC has got a bad
11:03record track record track record because the last time uh somebody raised the issue about uh azam baki's
11:11shareholding he sued the journalist alita kundaratnam and 21st february just just recently he has again
11:20sued bloomberg and again confined to the whole question of his past shareholding and assets then the same
11:29thing is also been happening in other commission mcmc the communication multimedia commission basically
11:34also raised uh sued uh murray hunter where criminal action on security against him as well as civil action
11:43so the policy the new policy the government should consider is that they should prohibit any such slap
11:53action especially from government prime minister or whatever you know this should be made a law
12:01however if it was personally nature nothing to do with the public office you hold you have a right
12:07to take legal action but in a personal capacity only because it's very bad because we don't want to
12:15create the culture don't you dare reveal or highlight a wrongdoing done by the prime minister ministers
12:20government macc mcmc if you do be ready to face retaliation criminal action or civil suit we don't want
12:30that culture we want people to continue to be free right when you are referring to slap charles you're
12:36referring to the strategic lawsuits against uh political uh public participation yes yes
12:43okay one one more can i raise one more issue in the final minute we have left yes
12:50okay can get in terms of who monitors mcc i suggest that the first government response was to
12:58put mcc under the jurisdiction of eaic and vospen agency integrity commission of course
13:05parliament also maybe think about setting up a parliamentary committee to continuously monitor
13:11all law enforcement entities in terms of your question about who should replace uh azam baki
13:19this term is anything i think at the present moment one thing is important maybe one of the deputy
13:24commissioner amad kusairi no raslan mohammad razali and juniper one of them maybe select point the most
13:32serious but for the independence security for of tenure is key so in terms the appointment should be
13:40until the mandatory retirement age of 60 full stop okay right charles thank you so much for
13:49sharing some of those insights and bringing up those really important points i appreciate your time
13:52that's human rights lawyer charles hector there um wrapping up this episode of consider this i'm
13:59melissa idris signing off for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
14:05you
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