00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our conversation about
00:15the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission Agency, which is once again under scrutiny as we as a
00:22country await the outcome of an investigation into MACC Chief Commissioner Tansri Azambaki's
00:28shareholding. Now, the question that's being asked right now is, should there be an RCI into MACC,
00:37a Royal Commission of Inquiry on MACC? Joining me on the show now to discuss this further is human
00:43rights lawyer Charles Hector. Charles, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I'm hoping we
00:48can start broad, maybe just set the scene first. When you are looking at this from a bird's eye view,
00:56Charles, what are the concerns of the recent events involving MACC? What has that raised for you?
01:05I think with regards to the issue involving MACC, the shareholding issue is actually a small issue
01:15because it's misconduct. I think the bigger issue is in terms of when allegations are made by third
01:24parties, could be media like Bloomberg and anybody else. For example, in September, Bloomberg reported
01:31that Anwar allegedly instructed MACC Commissioner Azambaki not to investigate Farage in connection to
01:38the share process involving a development of a new billion-rigate immigration system. The report also
01:45claimed that Anwar directed MACC to investigate Tun Mahathir Mohamad, his sons, and long-time associates
01:51time sirening. 12 February, Bloomberg report said the question was raised, who is watching Malaysian
02:00and anti-corruption watchdog. And the issue that was raised, which is concerning, many people are very
02:07concerned about, is that issue about the corporate mafia and the possibility that MACC might be involved
02:17by abusing its powers to help certain businessmen. So these are the two, I think, the issues that must be
02:26addressed first, more than anything else, you know. But unfortunately, in Malaysia and many countries,
02:35the first reaction whenever allegations are made about the law enforcement institutions, the prime minister,
02:42minister and public officers, the response is first a knee-jerk response. Oh, the government cannot do
02:49wrong and therefore, you know, it's all lies. But that should never be the case. In terms of when anybody
02:56raises any information, allegations, suspicions of crime, abuse of power, corruption, whatever it is,
03:03the first duty is to investigate the allegations thoroughly. Because law enforcement is the one who has the
03:11power and the capacity to do a proper comprehensive investigation. That should be the policy. And the
03:22second policy, I think so, in terms of we should not attack the whistleblower, the person who exposes the
03:29crime. Because that is actually going to be deterrent. It will actually deter the public from actually
03:36bravely coming out and exposing some wrong doings of the government or its agencies. But we don't want
03:44that. But in the case of the Bloomberg expose in the first one, what was reported in parliament was that
03:54basically they were investigated for criminal defamation. And finally, the minister informed us in
04:01parliament that the decision has to be made, no further action. But the question is that what's the
04:08allegations that Bloomberg raised in their report ever investigated? That is the question. Even now,
04:17sir, with the reason this thing, Bloomberg's report is fairly detailed with a lot of evidence, naming
04:25naming names, naming situations, and so on and so forth. But the moment now is that still there is no
04:31confirmation whether it's going to be investigated.
04:37I might just jump in here, Charles, and say, so I believe the government has said that there is a
04:44special investigation into the MACC chief's chair ownership. We're all awaiting that report apparently
04:51supposed to come at any time this week. But one of the things I'm curious to know how you feel
04:56is about
04:57the RCI. Do you think that there should be an RCI established to look into this? And I'm curious to
05:07know
05:08what you think an RCI would achieve? Conversely, what it would signal if the government decides against one?
05:15Before going into the RCI, it is sad that the government is just investigating
05:23Azzam's shareholding. Why is it not investigating all the other allegations about the corporate mafia?
05:29That is the bigger concern. Now, in terms of RCI, Royal Commission of Inquiry, it's a very good idea.
05:37You know, and we have the Commission of Inquiry Act 1950. But the problem or the concern is the
05:46composition of the RCI. Who is going to be the commissioners in the RCI? Who picks? Who chooses?
05:54And the second concern is the terms of reference. Because if the RCI is confined to a very minor thing,
06:01that just investigating the shareholding issue, then it's going to be not effective. Then people asking,
06:07what about the other issues, the corporate mafia issue? What about the issue about
06:12the Prime Minister's alleged interference in the MACC? So the RCI should investigate everything.
06:22Not just actually confined to a very limited scope, but everything, including also in terms of MACC.
06:31Because the one question that is raised is who monitors MACC? Remember the last RCI we had about the
06:40police, it was RCI that actually recommended the independent commission to look into the misconduct
06:49and crimes to the police. But the other concern is that after the RCI, will the final report be made
06:59available to the public? Because we all remember the RCI on Wang Klien, mass graves and human trafficking camp.
07:08RCI commenced in 2018, completed their job on 2019 September, submitted their report to the young
07:18di Pertuan Agong, di Pertuan Agong. But the report only became accessible to the public in October 2022.
07:28So the concern is that if you have a RCI, will they come out quickly and actually inform us about
07:35their
07:35findings and recommendations? Or will it be kept a secret? That's also another question on this thing.
07:42And then also in terms of the RCI should be given the power to actually identify whether anyone is criminally
07:51liable for the offense and be able to make recommendation that this person who are criminally liable
08:00be prosecuted. But the question then is asked is that we have had so many RCIs and task force and
08:09even
08:09SWACAM and EIC public inquiry reports. After the report, what happens? Sometimes what is said is that
08:20the law enforcement and prosecution do not actually follow up. Nobody gets charged in court.
08:27So that's the question in terms of the RCI which we must always be
08:34concerned about. So one of the things that you raised that I thought was interesting is that it's
08:40not just about individual controversies. It's not just about individual cases. There's a larger issue
08:46with maybe the governance architecture of MACC. Talk to me about that, about the concerns you have
08:55that recent events have raised for you about MACC. And I do wonder because we have Azam Baki's term ending
09:02in May. And what you think should happen next for MACC post-Azam Baki?
09:10I think in terms of MACC, I think the major concern is that it has to have legal reforms to
09:18make it
09:19independent. The fact now, who is the minister in charge? Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim because it comes
09:26under the prime minister's purview. Who picks the MACC chief? Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim. The five
09:32monitoring bodies, three structure, a jury body for example, Anti-Corruption Advisory Board appointed on the
09:38advice of the prime minister. Special Committee on Corruption, a point nominated by the leader of the
09:44House of Representatives. But look at their role. Their role is to just advise the prime minister
09:50and to make an annual report where the report is also supposed to be circulated in the House of
09:57Parliament. Why annual report? Shouldn't it be actually empowered to make immediate reports whenever
10:03something issues this thing? Then you have the complaints committee appointed by the minister and
10:08the minister again is the prime minister Anwar Ibrahim. So there is a great concern about the
10:14independence of this law enforcement entity. And Malaysia has actually of late are very concerned
10:23about this. We have already talked about the independence of the Malaysian judiciary, how the
10:27judicial appointment, independent judicial appointments commission. We are now looking at the issue of the
10:33independence of the public prosecutor. So the question is that this should be changed. Who should
10:38the point and the point and everything. So this is the need for law reform. Now the second concern with
10:45this
10:45thing is that uh MACC's policy when there is or law enforcement policy when they receive uh a report
10:55allegation they should investigate that first not go after the whistleblower. Sadly in terms of MACC has got a bad
11:03record track record track record because the last time uh somebody raised the issue about uh azam baki's
11:11shareholding he sued the journalist alita kundaratnam and 21st february just just recently he has again
11:20sued bloomberg and again confined to the whole question of his past shareholding and assets then the same
11:29thing is also been happening in other commission mcmc the communication multimedia commission basically
11:34also raised uh sued uh murray hunter where criminal action on security against him as well as civil action
11:43so the policy the new policy the government should consider is that they should prohibit any such slap
11:53action especially from government prime minister or whatever you know this should be made a law
12:01however if it was personally nature nothing to do with the public office you hold you have a right
12:07to take legal action but in a personal capacity only because it's very bad because we don't want to
12:15create the culture don't you dare reveal or highlight a wrongdoing done by the prime minister ministers
12:20government macc mcmc if you do be ready to face retaliation criminal action or civil suit we don't want
12:30that culture we want people to continue to be free right when you are referring to slap charles you're
12:36referring to the strategic lawsuits against uh political uh public participation yes yes
12:43okay one one more can i raise one more issue in the final minute we have left yes
12:50okay can get in terms of who monitors mcc i suggest that the first government response was to
12:58put mcc under the jurisdiction of eaic and vospen agency integrity commission of course
13:05parliament also maybe think about setting up a parliamentary committee to continuously monitor
13:11all law enforcement entities in terms of your question about who should replace uh azam baki
13:19this term is anything i think at the present moment one thing is important maybe one of the deputy
13:24commissioner amad kusairi no raslan mohammad razali and juniper one of them maybe select point the most
13:32serious but for the independence security for of tenure is key so in terms the appointment should be
13:40until the mandatory retirement age of 60 full stop okay right charles thank you so much for
13:49sharing some of those insights and bringing up those really important points i appreciate your time
13:52that's human rights lawyer charles hector there um wrapping up this episode of consider this i'm
13:59melissa idris signing off for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
14:05you
