- 3 hours ago
The big talking point of this episode of Democratic Newsroom is the Congress youth wing member's shirtless protest at the AI Impact Summit in Delhi last week and the arrests of the protesters.
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00:00Good evening and welcome to yet another edition of the Democratic Newsroom.
00:04Our band of editors are right back to discuss the most contentious issue in the newsroom.
00:09This time around, a bit of an express Democratic Newsroom, thanks to commercial concerns, which
00:13we are very glad about.
00:14But the moot point this evening, all of us saw the protests at the AI Summit by youth
00:21congress workers, something that we are still debating in studios and speaking of.
00:25Now, what was it?
00:26Was the protest by the Congress youth workers anti-nation or was it anti-government?
00:33We're going to throw the dais open for all arguments and we're also going to teleport
00:38our consulting editor, Rajdeep Sardisai, who is in Mumbai.
00:42He's going to join us right here.
00:44We have Gaurav Sawant.
00:45We have Akshita.
00:46We have Moshmi, who also covers the Congress.
00:48Our guest today on Democratic Newsroom, we have Sneha.
00:51So everyone, keep it short.
00:53Chris, Rajdeep, let's begin with you.
00:54Do anti-government or anti-nation the protests by the Congress workers?
01:00I think that question is frankly a non sequitur to me.
01:03Yes, as a bit of political theater or a spectacle, you could argue that it was in poor form and
01:09perhaps inappropriate.
01:11But to call it anti-national?
01:13For God's sake.
01:14There is nothing anti-national about a protest that only constricts the right to dissent or
01:19the right to protest.
01:20You want to know what is anti-national?
01:22A preventable tragedy that claims lives.
01:25A custodial death that raises questions about the rule of law.
01:29Corruption that corrodes public trust.
01:31Communal violence that scars social harmony in this country.
01:35You want to know what is anti-national?
01:36When Bungazeen Walthe, a Manipur BJP MLA, is beaten up in the heart of Manipur during the
01:43ethnic violence, dies two and a half years later of his injuries and the mob that was
01:47responsible for killing him is not prosecuted.
01:50You want to know what is anti-national?
01:51When Bajrang Dal uses violence against Christmas celebrations and they are all let off lightly.
01:58For God's sake, do not conflate anti-government with anti-national.
02:03The moment you do that, my belief is the boundaries of acceptable democratic descent will
02:10narrow.
02:11I do not support shirtless protests at an event like at Bharat Mandapam at the AI summit.
02:17But I will defend the right of any Indian to protest peacefully without calling them anti-national.
02:23For God's sake, you have asked a question that I believe is a bizarre question on its very
02:28the very foundation of that question, in my view, is anti-democratic.
02:32Rajdeep, let me tell you why this, you know.
02:33And even the Republic is not some artifact that will be so fragile that will collapse because
02:37of one protest.
02:38Rajdeep, this question has been mooted.
02:38So I suggest you redraw your question.
02:40You might say the question is bizarre, but the question has been mooted because it is in
02:44the arrest copy by the Delhi police of the arrest of the Congress workers where they have
02:50called the protest anti-national and creating a right-like situation.
02:55That is why the question has been raised, Rajdeep.
02:57Then say that we are a police state where you will decide what the police, you will be
03:01the echo chamber for the Delhi police.
03:01I tend to agree with you, Rajdeep.
03:02It is not an argument between you and I.
03:04But let me just open, you know, the debate.
03:07Gaurav Savath, go ahead.
03:08Your point of view.
03:09Rajdeep, or anybody else, list three takeaways from the AI summit, which is what this was
03:14all about in the first place.
03:16This was extremely important.
03:17AI summit is showcasing India's capabilities on the world stage.
03:22India emerging as the third very powerful pole.
03:27This wasn't about, you know, just some shirtless protest.
03:31It's about India.
03:32It's not about Narendra Modi.
03:34The protest was against Narendra Modi.
03:36It could have been done anywhere, any designated spot.
03:39This was showcasing India's power.
03:42Why is India's power in artificial intelligence so important?
03:44So, Gaurav Savath will decide where someone can protest.
03:47Okay.
03:47Rajdeep, let's allow everyone to come in and then he'll come to you.
03:50Make your point, Rajdeep.
03:51So, when you say that, you know, blah, blah, blah and blah is anti-national.
03:57Sure, you have a right to protest.
03:59But do you have to protest just where country is showcasing its power in something which
04:03is so important?
04:04Artificial intelligence would require basic intelligence to understand how significant it is.
04:09And perhaps those protesters may or may not have known.
04:13But artificial intelligence is something that you need to grapple with for your future,
04:16which clearly is not being handled by these shirtless protesters.
04:21Some of the key takeaways from this, you know, AI summit was democratization of artificial
04:28intelligence.
04:29This will benefit your future generations.
04:31AI in education is something that you're talking about.
04:33But then when you're lumping elements, you're doing these shirtless protests, AI in education
04:38clearly is not your priority.
04:40Of course, you have the right to protest.
04:41But then your children have a right to a better future, which clearly is not being protected
04:46by at least some of these elements.
04:47All right.
04:48Moshmi, you want to quickly come in?
04:49I want to get a quick comment from everyone first.
04:51I think this is obnoxious and ridiculous.
04:53The kind of witch hunt that has been launched.
04:55It's like a, as if we're reduced to a police state.
04:58We don't have any tolerance.
05:00I was speaking to lots of youth congress workers, and they were being called by the police, the
05:06women youth congress workers, that we know who you're sitting with.
05:09Are you planning a Mahila protest today?
05:12You dare not?
05:14We know who all are involved with you.
05:15Then she said, I don't think I'm planning a women protest.
05:19Perhaps we could plan a protest tomorrow.
05:22So are we living in a state of constant yes and no, and what we want to do, the police
05:29will decide?
05:30You know, the FIR, what the FIR reads, Preeti, just two lines of the grounds of arrest for
05:36Udaybhanu says that he did not disclose where the T-shirts were printed.
05:41The T-shirts were printed in Delhi.
05:43They generally get it printed in Delhi.
05:45They have a computer where they design the T-shirt.
05:47What is the rocket science in that?
05:49That's the ground of arrest for Udaybhanu.
05:53And if you look at the youth congress workers, Kundan Yadav comes from the poorest of poor
06:02background in Bihar.
06:04He has five sisters.
06:06His parents are really old, and they are like left with no alternative.
06:11They just want that he should get bail.
06:14He should get bail.
06:15So, I mean that there is absolutely, the entire cops have descended on the youth congress office
06:23as if.
06:24They are not victims.
06:24Okay, go ahead.
06:25They are not victims.
06:26We are protecting them as victims now.
06:28So are they guilty?
06:29No, that's something the courts will decide, right?
06:31Yeah, so they are not even guilty, right?
06:33So they are not even guilty, right?
06:35Okay, let me quickly get in.
06:38Simply, I'll just ask this to everyone here.
06:40Were we embarrassed by what we saw of that protest?
06:43Yes, no?
06:44Yes.
06:44Which was it?
06:44Were we embarrassed?
06:46Why were we embarrassed?
06:47I think that the kind of protest was inappropriate.
06:49Okay, let me answer that.
06:50I wasn't embarrassed.
06:51Okay, let me answer that.
06:52Let me answer that.
06:53Protests are designed.
06:54Why should I be embarrassed?
06:55One second.
06:55One second.
06:56Protests are designed to embarrass you.
06:57Protests are designed to make you uncomfortable.
07:00And designed to make you uncomfortable.
07:02But to link protest to national pride is fantasy.
07:04I'm asking you a simple question, Preeti.
07:06They are designed to embarrass you.
07:08Yeah.
07:08Did you feel embarrassed?
07:10One second.
07:11Okay, let me come to, if you're asking me what my point of view is, I have a very clear
07:15point to see.
07:15No, I'm asking you what you're embarrassed.
07:17You're asking seeing it.
07:18You are, one second.
07:19It's bound to.
07:20That's the nature of protest.
07:21That's bound to make you uncomfortable.
07:22The idea is to make the government uncomfortable, right?
07:25That is the nature of protest.
07:26But the idea is to make the government uncomfortable.
07:28They're putting the government on the mat.
07:29Yes.
07:29That is the nature of protest.
07:31Again.
07:31To do it at an international stage to embarrass you.
07:34Again, let me ask you this.
07:34But let me, embarrass who?
07:36But let me, India or embarrass the government?
07:37Okay, one second.
07:37Which is it?
07:38Because you're asking me, you're asking me, you're asking me, you're asking me, is the idea
07:42embarrassing the government or embarrassing the, so you think it's embarrassing the government?
07:45That's what you're saying.
07:46You said yes.
07:47I said yes.
07:48I was embarrassed.
07:50You're not a member of the government.
07:52You're not a member of a government to feel embarrassed.
07:54You felt embarrassed.
07:55Why?
07:56Because it's, one moment.
07:57Akshita, why are you finished?
07:58Make your point.
07:59One second.
07:59I just want to.
08:00One second.
08:01Make your point.
08:01My point is simple.
08:02That, you know, the idea, yes, of a protest like that was to embarrass the government.
08:06But beyond that, each one of us felt embarrassed looking at it.
08:09We're not members of the government.
08:11We didn't feel embarrassed.
08:12So I felt embarrassed looking at it.
08:13But I also felt embarrassed for the BJP protests.
08:15And the problem where games were underway.
08:17I'm coming right.
08:18That was perfectly wrong.
08:19Guys, we don't have to try.
08:20I'm not saying that's right.
08:22We will go for another round.
08:23Make your point.
08:23My whole deal about this whole, this protest is that the way they did it was maybe not
08:28pleasing to the eyes, clearly.
08:29Okay.
08:29But the fact is that that's the purpose of the protest.
08:32If they would sit in Jantar Mantar, like hundreds of people do all the time, like hundreds
08:36of people do all the time, they wouldn't have got the eyeballs.
08:39Gaurav is right.
08:40We're only talking about the protests on the AIS summit.
08:43I think that they have the right to protest.
08:46They have the right to protest.
08:47They wanted eyeballs.
08:49They know that if they sit in the corner, they're not going to get the eyeballs.
08:52It's a wrong place.
08:53Go all over again.
08:54They use QR coded passes.
08:55They have one second.
08:56I want to bring Rajiv back in.
08:59They misled the organizers.
09:01They use QR coded passes.
09:03Enter Bharat Mantar Pam.
09:04And they went out at that first step.
09:06And the protest then.
09:08Simply as a publicity stunt.
09:09One second.
09:10Let me go back to Rajiv.
09:11I'll come back again.
09:12We don't have the time.
09:12But it's a publicity stunt.
09:13Let me go back.
09:14That's the nature of protest.
09:16You have to attract attention.
09:17And embarrass the government.
09:18Embarrass the people.
09:19We can decide.
09:19Okay.
09:20One second.
09:20Okay.
09:20Rajiv.
09:21Let me flip the argument with what Akshata is saying.
09:23That ultimately, Rajiv.
09:24If you can hear us.
09:25Ultimately, Rajiv.
09:27A lot of people seem to suggest that this has not just embarrassed the government.
09:31It's also embarrassed a lot of our indigenous innovators who were there hoping for business.
09:36And a protest like that embarrasses them who are there on an international stage.
09:42So, let's flip this argument for a bit.
09:44No, and Rajiv.
09:45Rajiv.
09:45Did you find it embarrassing that they went shirtless and protested there at the AI summit?
09:48In front of international delegation.
09:50I didn't like it, but I wasn't embarrassed.
09:52You didn't like it.
09:53Miss Akshita Nand Gopal, my dear friend.
09:55Now, you must let me speak.
09:56Sure, sure.
09:56You are asking me again and again embarrassment.
09:58I said poor form, inappropriate.
10:00But because even if it may be embarrassing to you and me, does not mean that they do not
10:05have the right to protest or you can criminalize it.
10:07My concern is criminalizing it.
10:10This continues politics of criminalizing protest.
10:14Farmers' protest, you call them Khalistanis.
10:16Students' protest, you call them Tukle Tukle Gang.
10:18This is not how a country, a confident republic moves into the 21st century.
10:23You create spaces where people can descend.
10:25You and I can argue Bharat Mandapam was not the right place to do it.
10:28It does not make it anti-national.
10:31You know what is anti-national?
10:33When a former BJP MP from Rajasthan gives blankets to Muslim women and then takes them away
10:38this week because he says that they don't vote for me.
10:41Where is your voice there?
10:42I don't see you or Gaurav Savant or anyone shouting and screaming that that's an anti-national
10:46land which is against the constitution of the country which will not discriminate on the
10:50grounds of religion.
10:51Every instant you give, I will condemn.
10:52He is ostracized in Uttarakhand and his name is Mohammed.
10:55Every one of those incidents I condemn.
10:56Every one of those incidents I condemn, sure.
10:57Why don't you stand up for him?
10:59Who said we're not?
10:59You have a wrong definition.
11:00National embarrassment is not being anti-national.
11:02I'm sorry.
11:02If this is okay, we have less to say for a word.
11:04Please get the vocabulary right.
11:05If it is Rajasthan, I condemn that too.
11:06Allow me to bring in Gaurav.
11:07Let me add another one which you want to condemn.
11:09It is on the same day that he had an MLA.
11:11That is anti-national.
11:12On the assembly floor and actually shamed the entire country and agenda where he said
11:17that you should not let it be.
11:19If this is a democratic news from under the assembly, so something else.
11:22Gaurav.
11:22I think we'll keep going into topics and I'm saying no one's condemn.
11:24Gaurav.
11:24Gaurav.
11:25Rajdeep is behaving like Amitabh Bachchan in Divaar saying, go and go and sign it first
11:30and sign it first.
11:31That is not how democracies function.
11:34You know, two wrongs don't make a right point.
11:36One point, two, the right of a protester going shirtless cannot be greater than the right
11:42of an innovator who wants to showcase artificial intelligence on the world stage.
11:49For India to do well on the world stage.
11:51And this is the limited point that we are trying to make that your right to protest for
11:56your political gains cannot be greater than India's AI story, which is huge.
12:02India's AI story is huge, much greater than a shirtless protest.
12:06By a bunch of lump in elements.
12:08Okay, I'm not validating the kind of protest they did.
12:11The thing is that I'm validating that it's a fundamental right to protest.
12:16And we will protest, you can have your opinion about whether that protest was appropriate
12:20or not appropriate.
12:21But policing it is like sabotaging the rights of Indian citizens.
12:27And that is the most inappropriate.
12:29Anarchy is not a right.
12:30Anarchy is not a right.
12:31Anarchy is not a right.
12:34Anarchy is not anarchy.
12:38Anarchy is not anarchy.
12:38Okay, this is anarchy.
12:39We are a democracy.
12:40Anarchy is not anarchy.
12:41Anarchy is not anarchy.
12:45When Bajrang Dal support a demolished Christmas celebration, violence.
12:49Violence is unacceptable.
12:51Okay, yes.
12:51But there was no violence.
12:51This was not a violent protest.
12:53If it was violent, you could argue it was anti-national.
12:54You know, in the farmers' protest, the violence that happened, you know, farmers' protest,
13:00Khalistani elements, going to Red Fort, that was incorrect.
13:03But that is something that Rajdeep will never talk about.
13:05That's why.
13:06My humble submission, I have only two minutes.
13:10Ten seconds.
13:10Wrap up your...
13:11What is embarrassing is that you have Chinese robots moving around in the Bharat Mandapam.
13:16What is embarrassing is that you don't have an FIR on such kind of atrocious things.
13:21There are two things I want to say. A, yes, I agree that the protests were okay, there was no
13:25problem with them.
13:26Plus, it would have been anti-national had there been violence, had they destroyed property, had they hurt someone, had
13:33they made informatory statements, inciting violence.
13:35Hurting the country's image is not hurting anyone.
13:39At one moment, it would have been anti-national.
13:40Government's image of government.
13:41Country's image. I have never said government.
13:43For one second.
13:43Yeah, for me.
13:44Other than that, it certainly isn't anti-nation. It wasn't anti-nation.
13:48But we do hold that.
13:50There's no problem.
13:50At an international forum for eyeballs, which they got. Protesters do it outside of India at international forum.
13:55I'll give you an example.
13:55There is a designated spot. Go to any designated spot.
13:59You don't have to disturb India's work for you.
14:02Akshita's turn. Akshita's turn. But Akshita, it also happens. I'll give you an example. Forget about the last AI summit.
14:06Let's talk about what happened at the UNGA in September in New York.
14:10Exactly.
14:10Right, you had...
14:11Did they go inside UNGA?
14:12They were right outside.
14:13They were outside. There's a designated spot.
14:15I agree, but that doesn't make it.
14:16That doesn't make it.
14:17Okay, I don't have the time. Make your point.
14:19Don't disrupt the event.
14:20Gaurav, one second. Make your point.
14:21To answer your question, Gaurav has already answered that.
14:23Make your point.
14:23To me, very clearly, look, this was a protest against the government, but to me, it was also a natural
14:27disgrace that they chose to do it there.
14:29And it was clearly to grab eyeballs.
14:30What happened post that and how the Delhi police has reacted, it is, yes, an overreaction, but that's why we
14:35have the courts.
14:36To establish whether there was an overreaction or not. What are they guilty of? What are they not?
14:40That's something the courts will clear out.
14:41So, I don't agree with what the Delhi police did.
14:43Having said that, I do not agree with the manner of protest.
14:45It was very much a national disgrace.
14:48Okay, I'll give 30 seconds to test against the government.
14:50You did it at an international summit. You did that intentionally.
14:52Okay, okay. 30 seconds, Rajdeep. 30 seconds. Go ahead, sir.
14:56I have said all that I have to. There is nothing that my friends Gaurav and Akshita have said that
15:02has changed my mind.
15:03Okay, then let me get Gaurav.
15:03It has reinforced my view that they need to learn to make a distinction between anti-national and anti-government.
15:11And if they don't, then I fear for the future of the democracy of this country.
15:16That's my only point.
15:17I am becoming a criminal.
15:18Well, well, it's for courts to decide. You know, it's not street justice. We are not kangaroo courts.
15:23We'll go by, we'll go by workforce.
15:25That's a hard cut.
15:26Hard cut. I appreciate, I appreciate. I appreciate Moshmi.
15:29And I appreciate all of you for joining us. It's a hard cut.
15:31Like I said, commercial constraints, which we're very happy about.
15:35Our debate, national pride, can you link it to protest?
15:39You had Gaurav and Akshita who said, in times like this year, some of us believe, no.
15:43You know, you might not like the protest, but you cannot link it to national pride.
15:46Let's leave it at that. Our viewers decide which side of this revive they stand on.
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