- 2 days ago
Alice Atha died at the age of 73. A post-mortem revealed signs of emaciation and tuberculous meningitis. Her daughter, Grace Barber, and son-in-law, Harry Barber, are accused of her manslaughter through neglect. Gwen Watford and Michael Jayston appear as defence and prosecution counsel. David Daker and Rosemary Martin play the defendants.
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00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:30The case you're about to see is fictional, but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:00:35The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the general public.
00:00:43My lord and members of the jury, the accused, Harold and Grace Barber, are charged with a manslaughter by neglect
00:00:50of Mrs. Barber's mother, Mrs. Alice Ather, at the New Inn Public House in Lambsford on the 1st of October
00:00:57last year.
00:00:58Three months after she'd moved into the care of the defendants, Mrs. Ather, aged 73, was discovered dead in an
00:01:05upstairs bedroom.
00:01:06She was in a starved and emaciated state and had died from tuberculosis of the meninges, which are the membranes
00:01:14around the brain.
00:01:17Are you Dr. Roger Cordery? And is your practice at 5 Megs Lane, Fulchester?
00:01:20That's right.
00:01:21How long have you been in general medical practice, please?
00:01:24Twelve years.
00:01:25May Dr. Cordery refer to his notes, my lord?
00:01:28Did you attend Mrs. Alice Ather, the deceased?
00:01:31Yes, from the 5th of January last year.
00:01:34She was staying with her daughter, Mrs. Shepard.
00:01:36I'm GP to both of them.
00:01:38She had mild arthritis in the ankle and knee joints.
00:01:41I prescribed Indocin to be taken three times a day.
00:01:44It's a pain-killing drug which comes in capsule form.
00:01:47I also recommended that Mrs. Ather be placed on a high-calorie, high-protein diet.
00:01:51Could she walk unaided?
00:01:53Oh, yes.
00:01:54The degree of arthritis wasn't that great.
00:01:56Well, thereafter, how often did you see Mrs. Ather?
00:01:58Once a month, for a repeat prescription and generally to see how she was feeling.
00:02:03The pain certainly eased.
00:02:05I kept her on indocin.
00:02:06Did you visit her at home?
00:02:07Yes.
00:02:08She took to staying in Bedmore.
00:02:10She was an old lady who liked to pretend she was worse than she was
00:02:13in order to receive attention.
00:02:16I gathered that her daughter did a lot of running around for her.
00:02:19And how did you know this?
00:02:20From talking to her daughter, Mrs. Shepard.
00:02:22Old Mrs. Ather would frequently tell me that she was incapable of getting out of bed and walking.
00:02:28Some elderly people do like to play on their illnesses to get attention.
00:02:31What was her state of mind like?
00:02:33It tended to wander.
00:02:35She wasn't senile.
00:02:37Did you form an opinion as to whether she was eating or not?
00:02:39Yes.
00:02:40I got the impression she wasn't eating properly.
00:02:42She liked cakes and biscuits, bread and butter, chocolates, things like that.
00:02:48Old ladies quite often don't know what's good for them, hence the diet I recommended.
00:02:52Was Mrs. Ather's future care ever discussed?
00:02:55Yes.
00:02:56Mrs. Shepard spoke to me about putting her in a home.
00:02:58She asked your advice?
00:02:59Yes, but Mrs. Ather refused to go.
00:03:01In fact, on a few occasions when I spoke to Mrs. Ather, she was very upset by the thought.
00:03:06In the end, there was very little advice I could give.
00:03:09It was more of a domestic problem than a medical one.
00:03:12When did you last see Mrs. Ather as a patient?
00:03:15On the 28th of June.
00:03:17Was her health reasonable?
00:03:18There was little sign of any deterioration, except that she was staying in bed for her more.
00:03:23What would her weight have been at that time?
00:03:26I'd have to guess.
00:03:27Yes, I'd say between eight and nine stone, which was healthy.
00:03:32Why did you cease attending to her?
00:03:34Because she left the district.
00:03:36Mrs. Shepard told me that she'd moved away to live with her other daughter in Lamsford.
00:03:39Thank you, Dr. Cordray.
00:03:43Dr. Cordray, how would you describe Mrs. Ather's build?
00:03:48She was thin.
00:03:51And this high-calorie, high-protein diet that you put her on, what was the purpose of that?
00:03:55It was to build her up.
00:03:56Well, also, I suggested the diet because her general health might have suffered through her inability to take proper exercise.
00:04:02Yes, you say you were under the impression that her eating habits were poor.
00:04:06Yes.
00:04:07Yes.
00:04:07Did you feel that she was undernourished while living with Mrs. Shepard?
00:04:11I suspected she was eating the wrong things.
00:04:14I simply put her on a more beneficial diet.
00:04:16Well, what happens normally when one eats the wrong things over a prolonged period?
00:04:21One...
00:04:21One simply doesn't get enough proper nourishment.
00:04:25That is so.
00:04:28Yes.
00:04:29Yes.
00:04:29Did you ever examine Mrs. Ather fully?
00:04:32I gave her a check-up.
00:04:33Her blood pressure seemed a little low, but on the whole she seemed fit.
00:04:38Her heart was very sound.
00:04:39Did she appear to have been an active person?
00:04:42Yes.
00:04:43She'd enjoyed old-time dancing in the past.
00:04:46I got the impression from Mrs. Ather that she'd led quite an active life up until the death of her
00:04:50husband,
00:04:50and before the onset of the arthritis.
00:04:53She'd always enjoyed going shopping on her own, that sort of thing.
00:04:56Was she depressed?
00:04:57I think she could have been.
00:04:58You think she could have been?
00:05:01Yes.
00:05:03I suggest to you, Dr. Cordray, that an old lady who has been active and who obviously enjoys activity,
00:05:08who suddenly finds herself afflicted with arthritic pain,
00:05:11and who hears suggestions that her daughter is thinking of putting her in a home,
00:05:15I suggest to you that that old lady might become very depressed indeed.
00:05:20I would agree.
00:05:21I also suggest that that is why she spent more and more time in her bed, because she was depressed.
00:05:25That is possible.
00:05:28Would you say that Mrs. Shepard was under a strain looking after her mother?
00:05:32Yes.
00:05:33And were you aware of Mrs. Ather's other daughter, Mrs. Barber?
00:05:36Was there anything ever said about her?
00:05:38Yes, I knew there was another daughter.
00:05:40From conversations with Mrs. Shepard, I gathered that she was unwilling to take a share of looking after Mrs. Ather.
00:05:45And is that why Mrs. Shepard resorted to thinking of a home for her mother?
00:05:49Yes.
00:05:50Yes.
00:05:50You say that you ceased attending to Mrs. Ather because she moved out of the district?
00:05:55That's right.
00:05:56Well, did Mrs. Shepard ever tell you the circumstances under which she got her sister to take care of her
00:06:01mother?
00:06:01Yes.
00:06:02She said she'd driven her mother to her sister's and left her there.
00:06:05That her sister was now responsible for her care.
00:06:08And did you subsequently inquire about Mrs. Ather's health?
00:06:11No, I didn't see Mrs. Shepard to inquire.
00:06:14You just forgot about Mrs. Ather.
00:06:17She was no longer my patient.
00:06:21Are you Dr. Stephen Little?
00:06:22Yes.
00:06:23And where is your practice, please?
00:06:2515th High Street, Lamsford.
00:06:27Are you the GP to Harold and Grace Barber, the accused?
00:06:30Well, I've attended Mrs. Barber, not Mr. Barber.
00:06:33They've only lived in the village a few months.
00:06:35Was this ever at the New Inn, where they live?
00:06:37No, at the surgery.
00:06:38Did Mrs. Barber ever mention to you that she was looking after her mother?
00:06:41She did.
00:06:42Did she ever mention the circumstances in which she'd taken responsibility for her mother?
00:06:46My lord, it has not yet been established that my client did willingly take responsibility.
00:06:51Miss Miles, your client permitted her mother to live at her address.
00:06:55Yes, by so doing, she assumed the burden of responsibility.
00:07:00But not willingly, my lord.
00:07:02A learned counsel did not say willingly.
00:07:06And if he had done, it wouldn't make the slightest difference, the way I see it.
00:07:13I'll repeat my question.
00:07:14Did Mrs. Barber ever mention the circumstances in which she'd taken responsibility for her mother?
00:07:19She said her sister had dumped her on them.
00:07:21Dumped?
00:07:22She said dumped.
00:07:23Those words.
00:07:24Did she ever ask you to attend, Mrs. Ather?
00:07:27No, she didn't.
00:07:28Did she ever discuss Mrs. Ather's health with you?
00:07:30No.
00:07:31Were you ever aware that Mrs. Ather was an arthritic sufferer?
00:07:34No.
00:07:35Moving to the events of the 1st of October last year, can you please tell the court, in your own
00:07:40words, what occurred?
00:07:41Well, I was telephoned just after 8 o'clock in the morning by Mr. Barber.
00:07:45Mrs. Barber had been in hospital for a week undergoing a hysterectomy.
00:07:48He asked me to come down to the New Inn and have a look at Mrs. Ather.
00:07:52He said that she wasn't breathing and he believed she could be dead.
00:07:55So I called an ambulance and went immediately.
00:07:58The room was small, rather cold, I thought.
00:08:03Mrs. Ather was in the bed.
00:08:04I examined her and found that she was dead.
00:08:07Did you estimate how long she'd been dead?
00:08:09Some hours.
00:08:10Can you describe her to us?
00:08:12Yes.
00:08:13I found her extremely emaciated.
00:08:16Almost wasted away.
00:08:18Her temples were sunken.
00:08:19Her face had a very...
00:08:21grey appearance.
00:08:22Did you come to any conclusion as to the cause of death?
00:08:25Not immediately, no.
00:08:26It was difficult.
00:08:27Was anything said between you and Mr. Barber?
00:08:29Well, I asked him if Mrs. Ather had been ill.
00:08:32He said that she hadn't been eating properly and had totally lost her appetite.
00:08:36I asked him if any doctor had attended her recently.
00:08:39He said no.
00:08:40As a doctor, did that surprise you?
00:08:42Yes.
00:08:44It shocked me, in fact.
00:08:45I asked him why I hadn't been called in.
00:08:47He said he hadn't thought it was necessary.
00:08:49He'd been so busy running the pub and...
00:08:51visiting his wife in hospital.
00:08:53What possibilities did you consider as to the cause of death?
00:08:57Well, at first I considered it a wasting disease, of which...
00:08:59well, there are a few.
00:09:03And then...
00:09:04well, I thought a poison might have been involved.
00:09:06Did you consider starvation?
00:09:08I didn't, no.
00:09:11It's not the sort of thing one believes can happen.
00:09:13Except sometimes in cases of anorexia nervosa.
00:09:17So I called the police.
00:09:18What was Mr. Barber's reaction to all this?
00:09:21Well, he was upset by the old lady's death.
00:09:24Thank you, Dr. Little.
00:09:28Dr. Little,
00:09:30did Mrs. Barber ever express any anxiety as to her mother's health?
00:09:34Never.
00:09:35But she told you quite openly that she was living there.
00:09:38Yes.
00:09:39She made no secret of the fact at all.
00:09:41That's right.
00:09:42Yes.
00:09:43And she said that her sister, Mrs. Shepherd, had dumped her on them,
00:09:47on herself and Mr. Barber.
00:09:48That's what she told me.
00:09:49Did she tell you why her sister had dumped her on them?
00:09:52I think she said her sister could no longer look after her.
00:09:56Did Mrs. Barber tell you how old her mother was?
00:09:59Yes, 73.
00:10:00And you have many elderly patients?
00:10:02About 150.
00:10:04And as a GP, you're obviously well aware of the problems that beset the elderly.
00:10:09Of course.
00:10:09Did it never occur to you that an old lady in her 70s, whom you knew to be difficult,
00:10:15might be in need of some medical treatment?
00:10:19A doctor does not go out looking for patients.
00:10:22Really, my lord, who is on trial here?
00:10:24And I must correct my learner trend.
00:10:26Dr. Little did not know Mrs. Ather was difficult to look after.
00:10:29He'd been told that Mrs. Barber's sister could no longer look after her.
00:10:32Yes, you really mustn't put words into the witness's mouth, Miss Miles.
00:10:38I apologise for doing so, my lord.
00:10:40But carry on, by all means.
00:10:43Did you ever ask Mrs. Barber how her mother was?
00:10:47I was never asked to attend to her, so I assumed she was in good health.
00:10:51But there had been no attempt to conceal the fact from you that she was living there?
00:10:55None.
00:10:55Yes.
00:10:57You say you didn't consider starvation to be the cause of death,
00:11:01that you first considered a wasting disease.
00:11:03That is so.
00:11:04Do you know the disease tuberculous meningitis?
00:11:06Well, I know the disease. I've never come across a case before.
00:11:09And is it a wasting disease?
00:11:10Well, not always.
00:11:12But it can lead to emaciation.
00:11:14How does emaciation follow from the disease?
00:11:17I understand because it causes anorexia and the patient no longer eats.
00:11:21Anorexia?
00:11:23Yes.
00:11:24The Loss of Appetite.
00:11:41Is your name Rebecca Shepard?
00:11:43Yes.
00:11:44Do you live at 15 Park Walk, Fulchester?
00:11:46Yes.
00:11:47And are they accused your sister and brother-in-law?
00:11:49Yes.
00:11:50What's your occupation, please?
00:11:51I'm a teacher at Hill Road Primary School.
00:11:54Are you married?
00:11:56Divorced.
00:11:56For how long did you look after your mother, Mrs Alice Arthur?
00:11:59Two years.
00:12:00Did you invite your mother to come and live with you?
00:12:03Not exactly. She came after my father died.
00:12:06Did she have a house of her own?
00:12:08Yes, in Derby. She sold it.
00:12:10She nursed my father for many years. He had Parkinson's disease.
00:12:14And she said that, well, she said the house held too many unhappy memories for her.
00:12:19Did you intend that she should stay with you permanently?
00:12:22It was what she intended.
00:12:24What were relations like between your mother and your sister, Mrs Barbara, at that time?
00:12:29Oh, Grace was always her favourite.
00:12:31It was always Grace this and Grace that.
00:12:33And I'd say to her, why don't you go to Grace, if she's so wonderful?
00:12:37Why did Mrs Arthur come to live with you and not with Grace?
00:12:40Because I was living on my own.
00:12:41And Grace and Harry were working as relief tenants and they were always moving around from pub to pub.
00:12:47Did Mrs Arthur have her own room?
00:12:49Yes.
00:12:50I gave her my spare bedroom upstairs.
00:12:53Prior to the 5th of January last year, did you ever have to take her to a doctor?
00:12:57No.
00:12:57Would you say that she was fit and healthy around that time?
00:12:59Apart from arthritis, yes.
00:13:01Dr Corddry told us he recommended a high-calorie, high-protein diet for your mother, is that so?
00:13:06Yes, that's right.
00:13:07Did he tell you what foodstuffs this should consist of?
00:13:09Steak, beef, fish, milk, cheese, eggs.
00:13:13Did you comply with that diet?
00:13:14Yes.
00:13:15How many meals did you give your mother a day?
00:13:17Two, breakfast and dinner.
00:13:19Did she have a healthy appetite?
00:13:21Sometimes she had to be coaxed.
00:13:23She was quite a light eater.
00:13:24Could Mrs Arthur cook for herself?
00:13:26Yes.
00:13:27And did she get herself things to eat?
00:13:29Yes.
00:13:30Until she started to stay in bed a bit more.
00:13:33Did looking after your mother become a strain?
00:13:36Yes, it did.
00:13:38Can you tell us in what way?
00:13:40Because nothing that I ever did was good enough for her.
00:13:43She complained about everything.
00:13:45About the house, the way I looked after her, even the way I dressed.
00:13:48Did she talk about Grace during this period?
00:13:50Yes, every day.
00:13:51What did she say?
00:13:56Well, she's cruel.
00:13:58She'd say, why wasn't I married?
00:13:59She'd compare me with Grace.
00:14:01She'd say that Grace would never complain about having to look after her.
00:14:03And Grace was so wonderful.
00:14:05Did Mrs Barber ever visit her?
00:14:06Never.
00:14:07Never once in the two years she lived with you?
00:14:09Never once.
00:14:10Did she write or telephone?
00:14:11Never.
00:14:12Did you ever contact your sister, speak to her?
00:14:14Yes, quite a few times.
00:14:16What was said between you?
00:14:18I said it was time she took her share of looking after Mum.
00:14:21What was her response?
00:14:23That she and Harry never knew where they'd be, what pub they'd be in.
00:14:27It wasn't practical.
00:14:28And that I was better placed.
00:14:30You were still teaching?
00:14:31I was.
00:14:32Can we now move to the 3rd of July last year?
00:14:34What happened on that day?
00:14:36I knew that Grace and Harry finally realised their ambition.
00:14:41They'd got their own pub in Lansford.
00:14:44And I put Mother in the car with her possessions.
00:14:47And I drove her round there.
00:14:48With what purpose?
00:14:49Leaving her there.
00:14:51Did you warn your sister and brother-in-law of your arrival?
00:14:53No.
00:14:54What were their reactions?
00:14:55Grace was furious.
00:14:57She swore at me a good deal and Harry was a bit more understanding.
00:15:00I think he guessed the strain that had been under.
00:15:02Did you tell your sister and brother-in-law that Mrs. Ather needed medication and that she was under the
00:15:06doctor?
00:15:07Yes.
00:15:08Did you take her current medication with you?
00:15:09Yes.
00:15:10What did it consist of?
00:15:12A bottle of capsules, Indocene.
00:15:14Was this the last time you ever saw your mother?
00:15:16Yes.
00:15:17Did you ever attempt to see your mother again?
00:15:19Once, toward the end of August.
00:15:21What occurred?
00:15:22I went to the new inn, the pub, to see my mother.
00:15:28I hadn't heard how she'd been getting on or anything and I felt a bit guilty.
00:15:33I would have liked to apologise to her for the way that I treated her.
00:15:40Harry was behind the bar and I don't know where Grace was and he refused to let me see my
00:15:44mother.
00:15:45Did he give any reason?
00:15:47He said mother never wanted to speak to me again after the way that I treated her.
00:15:53What did you do then?
00:15:55Well, I asked where she was, asked how she, you know, if she was all right and he said she's
00:15:59fine.
00:16:00She didn't want to see you.
00:16:02He repeated it.
00:16:04And I said, well, just for a moment, just to talk to her.
00:16:09He refused to let me go upstairs.
00:16:11Did you ask if there was a doctor attending to your mother?
00:16:16I don't remember.
00:16:17Was that the first and last time you attempted to see your mother?
00:16:21Yes.
00:16:22What was the next thing you heard about her?
00:16:25About a month later, heard that she was dead.
00:16:29Thank you, Mrs. Shepard.
00:16:34Mrs. Shepard, why did you look after your mother?
00:16:39I saw it as my duty.
00:16:41She nursed father for 20 years.
00:16:43I felt I owed it her.
00:16:45And this high-calorie, high-protein diet that Dr. Cordray recommended, what did it replace?
00:16:52I'm sorry, what do you mean?
00:16:54Well, what was your mother's diet before Dr. Cordray put her on this high-calorie, high-protein one?
00:16:59Oh, she ate all sorts of things.
00:17:01What things? Please, tell us.
00:17:03She ate a lot of cold things, cold meats, tomatoes, bread and butter.
00:17:08And were you cooking your mother two proper meals a day at this time?
00:17:11No.
00:17:12So, what was she actually doing then, feeding herself?
00:17:15She tended to just eat as she wanted.
00:17:18Did you ever cook her a meal?
00:17:20Well, she wouldn't eat what I cooked very often.
00:17:22Yes.
00:17:23I suggest your mother was in the habit of eating in a certain way, certain things that she liked.
00:17:28And she was loathe to lose that habit. Is that how it appeared to you?
00:17:32Yes.
00:17:33Yes.
00:17:33So that for over a year and a half, you were aware that your mother's eating habits were poor.
00:17:39I didn't think about them.
00:17:40You thought about them enough to talk to Dr. Cordray about them.
00:17:42I felt I had to.
00:17:44After a year and seven months.
00:17:46Yes.
00:17:46Yes.
00:17:48You said a few minutes ago that you regarded looking after your mother as a duty.
00:17:52That you owed it to her.
00:17:54Do you consider that by allowing your mother to eat poorly, you were looking after her?
00:17:59I let her live with me.
00:18:00I couldn't make her eat what she wouldn't eat.
00:18:04So after Dr. Cordray's visit, you began giving her two proper meals a day.
00:18:08Yes.
00:18:09Yes.
00:18:09What time did you give her breakfast?
00:18:11Quarter to nine.
00:18:12Yes.
00:18:13And what time do you start teaching?
00:18:15What time in the morning?
00:18:16Nine o'clock.
00:18:16And what time do you leave the house?
00:18:18About quarter to nine.
00:18:22I suggest, therefore, that you never actually had time to sit down and watch your mother
00:18:28eat breakfast.
00:18:28I know that she ate it.
00:18:30How do you know she ate it?
00:18:31Well, she told me.
00:18:31She told you so, but how do you know that she ate it?
00:18:34When I came home, the dishes were downstairs and washed up.
00:18:37Your mother was capable of coming downstairs with her breakfast dishes and washing them up.
00:18:41Yes.
00:18:41And she told you that she'd eaten her breakfast.
00:18:43And you believed her.
00:18:44Yes.
00:18:45Even though previously it had been hard, almost impossible, to make your mother eat what was good
00:18:49for her.
00:18:50Well, she knew that she had to.
00:18:51I'm sorry?
00:18:52She knew that she had to eat properly.
00:18:55You said you made sure your mother ate two proper meals a day.
00:19:00I did.
00:19:01But one of them you never actually saw her eat.
00:19:04I'm not sure what you're suggesting.
00:19:06I'm simply suggesting that considering what you've told us about your mother's eating habits,
00:19:10it's very likely that she might not have eaten the breakfast that you prepared for her.
00:19:14I'm sure she did.
00:19:15Did you ever suspect that she might not be?
00:19:17Well, yes, once or twice maybe.
00:19:19Can you be more precise?
00:19:21I used to check in the dustbin, just in case.
00:19:25You used to check in the dustbin?
00:19:29Did you ever find any evidence that your mother had thrown anything away?
00:19:34No.
00:19:34But your suspicions were aroused?
00:19:36I knew what she was like.
00:19:37Quite.
00:19:38That is exactly the point that I've been trying to establish.
00:19:40You knew what she was like.
00:19:42Where was the toilet?
00:19:43Upstairs.
00:19:43Next to her room?
00:19:44Yes.
00:19:45And presumably she was also capable of going there on her own.
00:19:48Oh, yes.
00:19:52Right.
00:19:52Let's talk about dinner.
00:19:54Did you take dinner together?
00:19:57Yes.
00:19:58And was this in the evening when you came home from school?
00:20:01Yes.
00:20:01Did she always eat everything?
00:20:02Yes.
00:20:05Yet prior to Dr. Caldery's visit and his recommendation of this high-calorie, high-protein diet, when
00:20:11you cooked your mother a meal, she would not eat it.
00:20:14That is what you've told us?
00:20:15That's right.
00:20:16By what means did you suddenly succeed in making your mother eat?
00:20:20I persuaded her to.
00:20:22I suggest that it was a very dramatic change in your mother's eating habits.
00:20:25It was.
00:20:26Yes.
00:20:27For over a year and a half, she would not eat what you cooked her.
00:20:29Now suddenly, here she is, eating properly and fully.
00:20:33Yes.
00:20:34Did she like the food that you cooked for her?
00:20:36No.
00:20:36And yet she ate it?
00:20:37Yes.
00:20:38You said under examination, nothing I ever did was good enough for her.
00:20:41She complained about everything.
00:20:42Did that include the food that you cooked for her?
00:20:44Yes.
00:20:45She complained about the food you cooked for her.
00:20:47She didn't like the food that you cooked for her.
00:20:48You suspected she wasn't eating the breakfast that you prepared for her.
00:20:52And yet you continued, undaunted, to prepare your mother two proper meals a day.
00:21:01Is that true or not true?
00:21:04It's true.
00:21:09I suggest that it is not true.
00:21:16I've put up with her for two years.
00:21:18Isn't that enough?
00:21:18Well, was there a significant change in your mother's diet or did it remain much the same
00:21:24in spite of your valiant efforts?
00:21:29You are under oath, Mrs. Shepherd.
00:21:34It's much the same.
00:21:36And did you continue to prepare your mother two proper meals a day or was it a task that
00:21:41you set yourself with the very finest intentions, a task which you quickly realized was hopeless
00:21:46because of your mother's ways?
00:21:49What you said?
00:21:50I beg your pardon.
00:21:52I tried to do it.
00:21:54I really tried.
00:21:54It was her that starved her, not us.
00:21:57She was as thin as a bloody rake.
00:21:59Will the defendant please be silent?
00:22:01Will the defendant please be silent?
00:22:16The case of the Queen and Barber and Barber will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:22:22I just don't know.
00:22:23Right now?
00:23:01The case you're about to see is fictional, but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:23:06The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the public.
00:23:10Yesterday, the jury heard the first stages of the prosecution case against Harold and
00:23:14Grace Barber, who were accused of manslaughter of Mrs. Barber's mother by neglect.
00:23:23Are you Professor Thornton Mason, pathologist at the Edward Mansfield Memorial Hospital?
00:23:27I am.
00:23:28On the 3rd of October last year, were you asked to perform a post-mortem examination on the
00:23:32body of Mrs. Alice Ather?
00:23:33Yes.
00:23:34Let me first ask you about the height of the deceased.
00:23:37Her height was five foot seven inches.
00:23:40What would be the normal weight for a woman of that height?
00:23:42I'd say eight and a half stone, working on average desirable weights.
00:23:47What did she weigh?
00:23:48Her weight was five stone, eight pounds.
00:23:52The difference in body weight being two stone, 13 pounds?
00:23:55Yes, virtually three stone.
00:23:56What was the reason for the weight loss?
00:23:58The reason for the weight loss was lack of food, starvation, some dehydration.
00:24:02What state was her body in?
00:24:03It was very thin, wasted, very emaciated.
00:24:06There were bed sores and staining from urine and feces.
00:24:13The eyes were rather sunken, suggesting some dehydration.
00:24:16The hair was rather matted.
00:24:17I found no food in the stomach or the intestines.
00:24:22On examining her left lung, I found an old tubercular lesion, which had been reactivated.
00:24:28The deceased must have had tuberculosis as a younger woman and recovered from it.
00:24:33When you say reactivated, what do you mean?
00:24:35It affected the meninges.
00:24:41The meninges were inflamed.
00:24:44The disease was tuberculosis meningitis.
00:24:45I'd say she'd had it for about three weeks.
00:24:47What did you conclude was the cause of death?
00:24:49I concluded that death was due to tuberculosis meningitis.
00:24:53Not to starvation?
00:24:54Proving death by starvation is really a matter of excluding positive evidence of death
00:24:58from other causes.
00:24:59Can you say for how long she'd been starved of food?
00:25:01I'm afraid I can't.
00:25:03I examined the bowel and found no food particles, none whatsoever.
00:25:07This only led me to the conclusion that she had not eaten recently, within days of death.
00:25:12However, due to the state of extreme emaciation, I'd say some weeks.
00:25:16I can't be exact.
00:25:18Is tuberculosis meningitis a wasting disease?
00:25:21In an untreated case, there would be a loss of appetite, difficulty in swallowing,
00:25:25to the extent the victim would waste, yes.
00:25:28Simply because of not eating.
00:25:29Are you saying that some of the starvation could have been due to the disease?
00:25:33Some undoubtedly was.
00:25:35Can you say how much starvation was due to the disease?
00:25:37No, I'm afraid I can't.
00:25:38But all of the emaciation was due to starvation?
00:25:40Yes.
00:25:41Do you regard the loss of three stone as a dangerous loss?
00:25:45In Mrs. Arthur's case, yes.
00:25:47When you first saw her body, was it apparent to you that she was dangerously underweight?
00:25:51It was apparent to me that she was dead.
00:25:54I'm sorry.
00:25:55Or was it apparent to you that just prior to death, she would have looked dangerously underweight?
00:26:00Yes.
00:26:01Let me return to the tubercular lesion in the lung.
00:26:03What, in your opinion, was the cause of it being reactivated?
00:26:06In my opinion, it was because she was in an enfeeble state.
00:26:10When the body is run down, the immunity defences obviously collapse.
00:26:14If she was in a starved state, would that reactivate the tuberculosis?
00:26:18Oh, yes.
00:26:19And would that lead to the tuberculosis spreading to the meninges?
00:26:22Eventually, yes.
00:26:23How long would it normally take for the disease to prove fatal?
00:26:26If untreated, it would kill in three to four weeks.
00:26:29And so you maintain it killed Mrs. Arthur in three?
00:26:31Well, about three.
00:26:33It may have been a few days longer.
00:26:34I can't be exact.
00:26:36What are the clinical features of tuberculous meningitis?
00:26:39In the early stages, there'd be a general loss of appetite, general malaise, mild headaches.
00:26:43The person would feel drowsy, be confused, perhaps irritable.
00:26:48In the later stages, the headache would become more severe.
00:26:51There'd be a stiffening of the neck, creasing confusion, tremulousness, loss of muscle control,
00:27:00difficulty in swallowing, double vision, perhaps with the eye showing a squint,
00:27:04cranial neck pauses, and finally a paralysis of an arm or leg, followed by a coma.
00:27:09Is it a disease one could ignore?
00:27:12I would say not.
00:27:14And in the final stages, I'd expect the breathing to be very erratic, stertorous.
00:27:18Thank you, Professor Mason.
00:27:22Professor Mason, you say that Mrs. Arthur weighed two stones, 13 pounds less,
00:27:29than the desirable weight for a woman of her height and build.
00:27:33Yes.
00:27:33Yes, you see, I don't want the jury to be confused.
00:27:35You're not saying that Mrs. Arthur actually lost nearly three stones in weight.
00:27:41You're simply stating that she was two stones, 13 pounds less, than she should have been if she was healthy.
00:27:47That's right.
00:27:47Obviously, I have no way of telling how much she weighed before.
00:27:51No, obviously.
00:27:53What actually happens when one stops eating?
00:27:56The metabolism...
00:27:57Well, it's rather a complicated process.
00:28:01The fat becomes the major fuel of the body.
00:28:04The body, in fact, actually begins eating its own fat.
00:28:09Was it not possible for you to work out the length of time that Mrs. Arthur had starved from the
00:28:13amount of fat that she had used up?
00:28:14No, I had no way of telling the rate she used up.
00:28:17And also, there may have been food taken during the period of starvation.
00:28:20One really can't tell.
00:28:21Did she still have fat to use up?
00:28:23She had fat deposits to use up, yes.
00:28:25So, she was still a long way from dying of starvation?
00:28:28I wouldn't expect her to die of starvation.
00:28:30It's very unusual to simply die of starvation, especially in the case of an elderly person.
00:28:35The state of impoverishment makes the body prone to other conditions which act faster.
00:28:41A loss of muscle in another person might make them vulnerable to a pre-existing heart disease, for example.
00:28:46So, you see, starvation very rarely actually kills.
00:28:50Starvation is the trigger.
00:28:52In this case, it triggered the lesion in the lung, which led to the meningitis.
00:28:57Yes.
00:28:58Is it not so that after a few days of not eating, one loses one's appetite?
00:29:03Yes.
00:29:03And that this condition is, in fact, called anorexia?
00:29:06That is correct.
00:29:07And did you not say that anorexia was a feature of tuberculous meningitis?
00:29:11It is.
00:29:12Is there any confusion with anorexia nervosa?
00:29:16None, my lord.
00:29:17That is a psychological disease involving the inability to eat.
00:29:21It mainly affects teenage girls.
00:29:24I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.
00:29:29I wasn't aware that I had created any, my lord.
00:29:33At what stage of the disease did you say that anorexia became a feature?
00:29:38Almost at the outset.
00:29:40And you say that Mrs. Ather had starved for some weeks.
00:29:43Could she have starved for only three weeks?
00:29:46I would say it was more probable she starved for a longer period of time.
00:29:50Three stone in weight is a lot to lose in three weeks.
00:29:53But could she have lost it in three weeks?
00:29:55If starvation in that three-week period was acute, if no food was taken at all?
00:30:00Well, it would depend on so many things.
00:30:02Diet beforehand, amount of fat, metabolic rate.
00:30:07It would depend a lot on how much water was drunk during the period.
00:30:10Why is that?
00:30:11Well, a body fluid accounts for a very high proportion of the weight loss.
00:30:15If very little water was drunk during the period of starvation,
00:30:18the weight loss would be far greater than if a lot of water was drunk.
00:30:21But did you not say that Mrs. Ather was dehydrated?
00:30:23There was some dehydration, yes.
00:30:25Can you say how much?
00:30:26No, I'm afraid I can't.
00:30:27Just a lack of body fluid.
00:30:30Are you saying, then, that if Mrs. Ather drank very little during the starvation period,
00:30:35she could have lost three stones in three weeks?
00:30:38It would still be unlikely.
00:30:39But possible?
00:30:41It's possible.
00:30:42I can't be categoric.
00:30:44Now, three weeks is also the time that you said she had the disease tuberculosis meningitis.
00:30:49Yes.
00:30:50If anorexia is an initial feature of that disease, I suggest she could have lost all three stones during the
00:30:57disease.
00:30:58But I already said it was because she was in an impoverished state that the lesion in the lung was
00:31:02reactivated.
00:31:03No, you've already said that it was because she was in a starved state that the lesion in the lung
00:31:08was reactivated.
00:31:08I don't know what state Mrs. Ather was in when the lesion was reactivated.
00:31:11Then why did you say that starvation led to it?
00:31:13I did only say that starvation was a possibility.
00:31:15No, with respect.
00:31:16You said starvation is the trigger.
00:31:18In this case, it triggered the tubercular lesion in the lung.
00:31:22Starvation is a possibility.
00:31:23I made that clear earlier.
00:31:24You see, you said it's a bit of a medical puzzle here.
00:31:29We've been led to believe that because Mrs. Ather was starved, the lesion in the lung was reactivated and the
00:31:36disease spread.
00:31:37Yet an early feature of that disease is loss of appetite, which in itself would lead to starvation and emaciation.
00:31:45I think there was some deprivation of food, some deficiency of diet, enough to impoverish the body prior to the
00:31:51reactivation of the lesion.
00:31:52Then, considerable starvation as a consequence of the disease.
00:31:56But the total amount of weight loss can be totally accounted for by the disease.
00:32:00It is only a possibility.
00:32:02Yes.
00:32:02At the moment, we do not know which came first, the disease or the starvation.
00:32:06It's rather like the chicken and the egg.
00:32:08I wouldn't put it quite so simply.
00:32:11Might a mere deficiency of diet have weakened the body enough to allow the lesion to reactivate?
00:32:21Might have.
00:32:24We are a long way from starvation.
00:32:28Could the lesion in the lung have reactivated some time before the disease spread to the meninges?
00:32:33It could have.
00:32:34Some months before?
00:32:36Possibly.
00:32:36Would there necessarily be chest symptoms?
00:32:38Coughing?
00:32:39Not necessarily.
00:32:41Even though the lesion had reactivated, it could lie quietly without giving any chest symptoms.
00:32:46So one would not know about it until the disease had spread?
00:32:50That is correct.
00:32:51So what we are saying is that tuberculosis may have appeared before Mrs. Arthur ever went to live with the
00:32:58defendants.
00:33:09You say that the early symptoms of tuberculosis meningitis are mild headaches, general malaise, drowsiness, confusion, irritability.
00:33:17Yes.
00:33:18Would they be a strong enough feature to cause alarm, or might they not be dismissed as the normal pattern
00:33:24of growing old?
00:33:25In an otherwise healthy person, they would be a strong enough feature to cause alarm.
00:33:28What about an old person who was already drowsy, confused and irritable?
00:33:32In tuberculosis meningitis, I would expect increasing confusion.
00:33:36I think it would be alarming in any event.
00:33:39You say there would be a stiffness of the neck?
00:33:42Yes.
00:33:43In the latter stages, there will be a number of neurological manifestations.
00:33:47And what causes them?
00:33:48The inflamed meninges begin to strangle the cranial nerves which pass through them.
00:33:52A number of nerves were involved.
00:33:55Yes, this horror story of symptoms that you've given us, I can only describe them as that,
00:34:00is no more than a list.
00:34:02Of the neurological manifestations you would expect, following the involvement of the nerves.
00:34:07Yes.
00:34:07Yes.
00:34:08Double vision, a squint, tremulousness, loss of muscle control, difficulty in swallowing, neck pauses.
00:34:13They are all neurological.
00:34:15They are.
00:34:15Yes.
00:34:16What usually is the ultimate fate of a nerve that is strangled in this way?
00:34:21The nerve is destroyed, ultimately.
00:34:24Were any of the nerves destroyed?
00:34:26No, but many were involved.
00:34:28Involved in being strangled, but not destroyed?
00:34:30That is so.
00:34:32Was the spinal cord involved?
00:34:34The inflammation had involved it, yes.
00:34:36But was it damaged to the extent that you can definitely say Mrs. Ather would have experienced paralysis of an
00:34:42arm or a leg?
00:34:43I cannot definitely say, but I think some paralysis was very likely.
00:34:48Is it not so that when a nerve is damaged but not destroyed, it is very difficult to assess the
00:34:53extent of that damage unless the patient is alive to testify?
00:34:56Yes.
00:34:57So we do not know for certain, therefore, to what extent Mrs. Ather demonstrated those manifestations?
00:35:03They are the clinical features of the disease.
00:35:06The clinical features of the later stages of the disease, am I right?
00:35:11Yes.
00:35:12Finally, you say that it would lead to coma and difficulty in breathing.
00:35:17Now, breathing in coma would be light, wouldn't it?
00:35:19The difficulty would still be noticeable.
00:35:21Perhaps not so if that coma were mistaken for sleep.
00:35:25Well, she would look extremely ill.
00:35:27One could not possibly wake her up.
00:35:29No, I cannot say it will be mistaken for sleep.
00:35:32Provided one attempted to wake her up.
00:35:36Thank you, Professor Mason.
00:35:38Professor, given the condition of Mrs. Ather, the muscle wastage, the emaciation, the extent of the disease,
00:35:45can you give her some indication as to what period of time before death
00:35:48she would have been incapable of walking on her own?
00:35:52It would be an opinion.
00:35:54I think it would be of some value.
00:35:57I don't imagine she will be able to walk unaided during the last two weeks of her life.
00:36:02She would have been totally bedridden.
00:36:04Totally.
00:36:06Thank you, Professor Mason.
00:36:09That, my lord, concludes the case for the prosecution.
00:36:14Is your name Grace Barber?
00:36:16It is.
00:36:18And with your husband, Harold, do you both own and live at the New Inn, High Street, Lambsford?
00:36:23We do.
00:36:25For how long have you resided at the New Inn?
00:36:28Since the 24th of May last year.
00:36:31What had you been doing for some years before that?
00:36:34Well, Harry and me, we'd been working as relief tenants for four years.
00:36:39You know, just moving from pub to pub.
00:36:41And before that, we were the tenants of the Bell in Fullchester.
00:36:45And during this period of moving about, were you ever in contact with your sister, Mrs. Shepherd, as regards your
00:36:51mother's welfare?
00:36:53Yes.
00:36:54Rebecca used to ring me up, say it was time we took our share of looking after Mum.
00:36:59But we couldn't because we were moving around so much.
00:37:03Now, on the 3rd of July last year, what happened?
00:37:07Well, Rebecca brought Mum round to us, without any warning.
00:37:12She said she'd had enough of looking after her, and it was our turn.
00:37:16Well, I was furious with her.
00:37:17I mean, just dumping Mum on us like that, without any warning.
00:37:21And she looked so thin, almost, well, skinny.
00:37:25When was the last time you had seen her?
00:37:28When Dad died, two years before.
00:37:30And would you say that there was a great difference in her appearance?
00:37:33Oh, I'll say.
00:37:34She looked as though she hadn't been fed.
00:37:37Was she able to walk on her own?
00:37:38Well, with a stick.
00:37:41Did your sister, Mrs. Shepherd, say anything about your mother's medication?
00:37:45No, she didn't.
00:37:47Did she tell you that your mother had been regularly attended to by a doctor because of her arthritis?
00:37:52No.
00:37:53And did she leave any medication with you?
00:37:55No, she didn't.
00:37:58After she left, what transpired between yourself, your husband, and your mother, Mrs. Arthur?
00:38:04Well, I didn't want to take the responsibility for her.
00:38:07But Harry, he taught me round.
00:38:09He said, well, now we owned our own place, we owed her something.
00:38:13So we gave her a bedroom upstairs at the back of the inn.
00:38:16And was there a toilet and bathroom on the upstairs floor?
00:38:19Yes, next door to her room.
00:38:22Did your mother say why she had difficulty in walking?
00:38:25Yes, she said she had a lot of pain.
00:38:27In her knees and in her ankles.
00:38:29Did she describe what sort of pain?
00:38:30She said it was an arthritic pain.
00:38:33Now, did she tell you that she had been seeing a doctor?
00:38:35Oh, yes.
00:38:36But she said he hadn't done her any good.
00:38:39And did she say anything else as regards to the doctor?
00:38:41Yes.
00:38:42She said she hadn't liked him because he'd spoken about putting her in a home.
00:38:47Did you have a GP of your own at this time?
00:38:50Well, no, because we'd only just moved into the village and we hadn't needed one.
00:38:53And did you consider fetching a doctor to your mother?
00:38:56Well, no.
00:38:57I mean, it didn't seem necessary.
00:39:00And anyway, she said she didn't trust doctors and I was able to relieve the pain.
00:39:05How were you able to do that?
00:39:07Well, I used heat treatment.
00:39:09I've got a sunray lamp and it's got an infrared setting and I used to use that on her legs.
00:39:14How often?
00:39:15Oh, well, every day for about half an hour.
00:39:18And then I also put hot water bottles against her joints.
00:39:21And how did that help your mother?
00:39:23Well, she said it helped to relieve the pain a lot.
00:39:26Did she stay in bed much?
00:39:28Well, she stayed in bed all the time, except to go to the toilet.
00:39:32She never came downstairs?
00:39:33Never.
00:39:34Was she able to come downstairs on her own?
00:39:37Oh, yes, she was perfectly able.
00:39:39She just didn't want to.
00:39:41Did you ever encourage her to come downstairs?
00:39:43Yes.
00:39:44But there was only the bar, you see, and she never did approve of drinking.
00:39:48Yes, now let me ask you about the drinking.
00:39:50Did your mother have water in her room?
00:39:53Well, we supplied her with a jug and a glass.
00:39:56And did she drink a lot of water?
00:39:57No, very little.
00:39:59How often did you have to refill that jug?
00:40:02Well, I changed the water in it every day, even though she'd hardly touched it.
00:40:07What was your mother's mood after she came to live with you?
00:40:11She was very depressed.
00:40:12Did she talk about your sister at all?
00:40:14Yeah.
00:40:15She said she never wanted to see Rebecca again after the way she'd treated her.
00:40:19Did your mother have any interests?
00:40:21Did she read at all?
00:40:23No, she didn't read.
00:40:24Did she have a television in her room?
00:40:25No.
00:40:26And what about a radio?
00:40:26Well, we offered her one, but she said she didn't want one.
00:40:29So what did she do all day?
00:40:31Well, nothing.
00:40:32She just lay there.
00:40:33And it was around this time that she expressed a disinterest in leaving her room except to
00:40:38go to the toilet?
00:40:39Yes.
00:40:40Was she capable of washing herself?
00:40:43Oh, she was perfectly capable, but she got very lazy about it.
00:40:47When she refused to get up to wash, I always made sure she had a bed bath all over.
00:40:52Which you gave her?
00:40:53Oh, yes.
00:40:55What were the arrangements for feeding her?
00:40:58Well, she wouldn't have much for breakfast, just a cup of tea and a piece of toast.
00:41:02And then, well, we started off by giving her two meals a day, but she just wasn't eating.
00:41:07So we made it one at lunchtime.
00:41:09And we thought that, well, as she was lying in bed all day doing nothing, she didn't really
00:41:14need two meals a day.
00:41:16And did she always eat what you prepared for her?
00:41:18Well, no, that was the thing, you see.
00:41:19I mean, we always made sure that she had it, but sometimes she just wasn't hungry.
00:41:24I mean, a whole day would go by and she'd eat nothing.
00:41:27And didn't that alarm you?
00:41:29No.
00:41:30I mean, if she wasn't hungry, didn't see much point in making her eat.
00:41:35Did you ever sit down with her and coax her to eat?
00:41:38No.
00:41:40When she did eat, what were the circumstances?
00:41:42Well, one of us used to take it up to her, leave it with her, and then she'd eat it
00:41:48on
00:41:48her own.
00:41:48Could you be sure that she ate it?
00:41:51Well, the plate was clean.
00:41:53Were you ever aware, after taking her up a meal and leaving it with her, that she got up on
00:41:58her own and went to the toilet?
00:42:00Well, I've no idea.
00:42:02I mean, you can't hear a thing what's going up upstairs when you're downstairs in the bar.
00:42:07Did your mother ever complain about the food that you gave her?
00:42:10Oh, yes.
00:42:11She was always complaining.
00:42:13Would you describe her as irritable?
00:42:15Yes, very.
00:42:16How did this affect the relationship between your husband and your mother?
00:42:20Well, it became very bad.
00:42:23I mean, I said really that she'd have to go into a home.
00:42:26And did you take any action as regards finding a home for her?
00:42:29Well, no, because I didn't really know how to go about it.
00:42:33Around this time, were you yourself seeing Dr. Little, the GP in the village?
00:42:38Yes, I had to go into hospital to have an operation.
00:42:42Can you tell us the nature of that operation?
00:42:45Hysterectomy.
00:42:47What day was fixed for you to go into hospital?
00:42:5025th of September.
00:42:52And did you tell Dr. Little that you were caring for an elderly mother?
00:42:55Yes.
00:42:56Did you ever ask him to attend her?
00:42:59No.
00:43:00I didn't think it was necessary and I didn't want to waste his time.
00:43:04And I mean, Mum didn't seem ill.
00:43:06She just seemed old and bad-tempered.
00:43:09And were you continuing with the heat treatment at this time?
00:43:12Well, I was still using the hot water bottles, but I'd stop using the lamp.
00:43:16Did she complain of pain?
00:43:17No.
00:43:18Was she ill-looking?
00:43:20No, well, she looked thin, but then she always looked thin.
00:43:24How was she eating by this time?
00:43:27Well, much the same as before, really.
00:43:29I mean, sometimes she wouldn't eat and sometimes you'd take up her food
00:43:33and then you'd go and pick the plate up and it was usually clean.
00:43:37Did she complain of anything else?
00:43:39Yes, she did start to complain about having headaches
00:43:42and I used to give a discipline for those.
00:43:44Now, when did she start having those headaches?
00:43:47About two weeks before I went into hospital.
00:43:49Did you have any idea that your mother might be ill?
00:43:53Seriously ill?
00:43:55None at all.
00:43:57Immediately prior to your going into hospital, on the 25th of September,
00:44:01was your mother still capable of getting out of bed on her own?
00:44:05Well, she could get out of bed on her own, but she had to be helped to the toilet.
00:44:09She was weaker.
00:44:10Well, we thought it was because she just lay in bed all day.
00:44:15And on the 25th of September, you went into hospital.
00:44:18Are you fully recovered from that operation?
00:44:21Yes, thank you.
00:44:23How often did Mr. Barber visit you in hospital?
00:44:27Oh, twice a day, mornings and afternoons.
00:44:29And was your mother discussed?
00:44:31Yes, he used to tell me how she was.
00:44:33Did he seem alarmed by her state of health?
00:44:36No.
00:44:36I think he was more worried about me.
00:44:39And on the 1st of October, did you hear that your mother had died?
00:44:43Yes.
00:44:44Harry rang me up to tell me.
00:44:47Thank you, Mrs. Barber.
00:44:49Mrs. Barber, you had not seen your mother for two years.
00:44:52Is that right?
00:44:53Yes, that's right.
00:44:54Why was that?
00:44:55Well, there was never any time.
00:44:56What about Christmas, birthdays?
00:44:58Did you never try to see her?
00:45:00Well, no, because we were always in some different pub.
00:45:02I suggest you could not be bothered with your mother.
00:45:05I suggest you were content to let your sister take all the responsibility.
00:45:08I was content to, yes.
00:45:10Because she had her, we didn't.
00:45:12And it was impossible for us to.
00:45:14On the 3rd of July, Mrs. Ather was brought to you by your sister,
00:45:17who said she'd had enough of looking after her.
00:45:19Yes, that's right.
00:45:20And you stated that Mrs. Shepard said nothing about your mother having been on medication
00:45:24or having seen a doctor because of arthritis.
00:45:26Yes.
00:45:27Have you heard Mrs. Shepard give evidence under oath?
00:45:30Oh, yes, I heard her.
00:45:31Mrs. Shepard has stated that she informed you of both these facts.
00:45:34Well, she's a bloody liar.
00:45:35Did she leave a bottle of pills?
00:45:36No.
00:45:37You already know what a bloody liar she is.
00:45:40Would you mind your language, please?
00:45:41It was her that starved her, not us.
00:45:44She's already lied about that.
00:45:45Why shouldn't she lie about everything else?
00:45:47Mrs. Barber, I can't allow you to shout.
00:45:53She's always been a liar.
00:45:56I always took the blame for everything she did, always.
00:46:16The case of the Queen and Barber and Barber will be concluded tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:46:24She's always been a liar.
00:47:24This barber is being cross-examined.
00:47:28You say that when your mother came to live with you, she looked thin, almost skinny, as though she hadn't
00:47:33been fed?
00:47:34Yes.
00:47:35Under your care, did she appear to look any better?
00:47:39No.
00:47:40So she remained thin, almost skinny, as though she hadn't been fed?
00:47:44Well, it was just the way she looked.
00:47:46Did she look ill?
00:47:47Not particularly.
00:47:49You thought she looked well?
00:47:50No.
00:47:52Then I suggest she must have looked ill.
00:47:54Well, she didn't look well, but she didn't look ill.
00:47:57Surely, if she didn't look well, she must have looked ill.
00:48:00I don't see how.
00:48:01If I said to you, you do not look well, what am I saying to you?
00:48:06You're confusing me.
00:48:08It is not I who's being confusing.
00:48:11Well, she looked much the same.
00:48:13So why did you not call a doctor?
00:48:15Tell Dr. Little.
00:48:17I didn't think there was any need.
00:48:18She looked unwell.
00:48:20I think we've established that.
00:48:21She had arthritic pain.
00:48:22She spent nearly all day in bed, sometimes not eating.
00:48:24And you say there was no need to call a doctor?
00:48:26Well, it didn't seem that serious.
00:48:29What happens to someone who does not eat?
00:48:31Look, she wasn't hungry.
00:48:34It wasn't as though she couldn't eat.
00:48:37Like I said, I mean, she lay in bed all day, doing nothing.
00:48:41She didn't need much food.
00:48:42She ate all she wanted.
00:48:44What were the arrangements for collecting your mother's pension?
00:48:47Oh, well, I collect it.
00:48:49I got Mum to sign a letter.
00:48:51What became of the money?
00:48:52Well, put it in a bank.
00:48:54You and Mr. Barber spoke about putting your mother in a home, is that right?
00:48:58Yes.
00:48:59And you say that the reason you did not pursue this course was because you did not know how to
00:49:03go about it.
00:49:04Yes.
00:49:05Are you aware that there are private nursing homes?
00:49:08Yes.
00:49:09And were you aware that after selling her house in Derby, your mother had a considerable sum in her bank
00:49:13account?
00:49:14A sum exceeding £50,000.
00:49:16Which would have amply covered such expenses.
00:49:19Well, we didn't think about it.
00:49:21You didn't think about £50,000?
00:49:23Well, not in that respect.
00:49:25In what respect did you think about it?
00:49:27I suggest to you, Mrs. Barber, that £50,000 must have been a factor operating on your mind in some
00:49:33way.
00:49:34I don't know what you mean.
00:49:35My lord, what is the relevance of my learned friend's questions?
00:49:39Mr. Saunders.
00:49:40My lord, I mention the £50,000 because it is a factor which may have operated on the defendants' minds,
00:49:46making them indifferent as to whether Mrs. Arthur lived or not.
00:49:50I've no objection to your exploring it.
00:49:55I put it to you, Mrs. Barber, that £50,000 was a motive for not caring whether your mother lived
00:50:00or died.
00:50:01I did care.
00:50:03Neither of us wanted her to die.
00:50:07Mr. Barber, on the 3rd of July, we have heard Mrs. Arthur was brought round to the new inn and
00:50:13left in the care of you and your wife.
00:50:16Yes, by Rebecca, my sister-in-law.
00:50:18And what was your wife's reaction?
00:50:20Well, she was furious.
00:50:21She didn't want the responsibility of looking after the old woman.
00:50:25She accused Rebecca of just dumping her on us.
00:50:28And what did you say to your wife?
00:50:30I told her I thought it was our turn to look after the old lady.
00:50:33Rebecca had had her for two years.
00:50:35Now we had a pub of our own, we had the facilities.
00:50:38And did you persuade your wife that you should take joint responsibility for her mother?
00:50:43Yes.
00:50:44Even though she wasn't your own mother?
00:50:46Yes.
00:50:47Is your own mother still alive?
00:50:49No, she died four years ago.
00:50:52And was she living with you?
00:50:53No, she was in hospital in a psychogeriatric ward.
00:50:57Did you ever look after her for any period?
00:50:59Yes, I looked after her for three years before Grace and I got married.
00:51:04Now what condition was Mrs. Ather in when she came to live with you?
00:51:08Well, she looked very thin.
00:51:12Almost bony.
00:51:13Did she look underfed to you?
00:51:15Well, not particularly.
00:51:16I just thought she looked thin.
00:51:18Are you aware that your wife considered her underfed looking?
00:51:21Oh, I know she said underfed, but to me she was just thin looking.
00:51:25You thought it was a natural thinness?
00:51:27Well, yes.
00:51:27I mean, she was 73 after all and, well, she had a thin build.
00:51:33Where did she spend most of her day?
00:51:35Upstairs in bed.
00:51:36She spent all of it there.
00:51:38Except to get up and go to the toilet.
00:51:40What was her mood generally?
00:51:43I was pretty depressed.
00:51:45And to what did you attribute that depression?
00:51:48Being dumped by Rebecca.
00:51:51Did she have a big appetite?
00:51:52Oh, no.
00:51:53Very small.
00:51:54Quite often I'd take a meal up and she'd say,
00:51:57Harry, I'm just not hungry today.
00:51:59Well, I tried to make her eat, but...
00:52:01You can't make somebody eat if they don't want to, can you?
00:52:04Did you ever leave her with a meal?
00:52:07Yes, quite often.
00:52:09And did she eat it?
00:52:10Well, sometimes she picked, sometimes she ate the lot.
00:52:13Were you ever present when she ate the lot?
00:52:15No, no.
00:52:16Well, why not?
00:52:18Well, we had a pub to run.
00:52:19I mean, why should we stay with her?
00:52:21She was an adult, capable of feeding herself, not a child.
00:52:25Was there an occasion when Mrs Arthur accused you of something?
00:52:29Yes, towards the end of July, I took her up some chicken casserole.
00:52:33It was what we were serving in the pub.
00:52:35She looked at it and then she said,
00:52:38what did I think I was trying to do?
00:52:40Poison her?
00:52:41And then she threw it on the floor.
00:52:43She didn't even taste it?
00:52:44No, no.
00:52:44She just looked at it and then chucked it.
00:52:47What else did she say?
00:52:50Well, she suggested that we wanted her out of the way.
00:52:54That it would serve us right if she starved herself to death.
00:52:57Had she ever behaved in this irrational way before?
00:53:00No, no, not quite like that.
00:53:02She'd be going a bit funny, a bit morbid,
00:53:05saying how nobody wanted her.
00:53:06Nobody cared whether she lived or died.
00:53:08I mean, she said that a few times.
00:53:10Did she ever say anything else funny?
00:53:12Well, she'd get confused.
00:53:14Say that nobody had been up to see her all day when one of us had been up there only
00:53:18half an hour before, things like that.
00:53:20I wish she'd forget where she was, what time of day it was.
00:53:22Did you and your wife ever talk about putting her in a home?
00:53:27We talked about it, but I was against the idea.
00:53:30And why were you against the idea?
00:53:32Because I remember how horrible it was putting my own mother into a psychogeriatric ward.
00:53:38And just because Mrs. Arthur was difficulty, there wasn't any reason to stick her away.
00:53:43Did your wife express an opinion?
00:53:46Yes, she felt the same as me.
00:53:48And we neither of us really knew how to go about putting her in a home.
00:53:52But anyway, it meant dumping the old lady, and she'd been dumped once already.
00:53:55I mean, Grace and me, we just wanted the best for her.
00:53:58A few days afterwards, did you receive a visit from Rebecca Shepard, your wife's sister?
00:54:03Yes.
00:54:04She wanted to see her mother.
00:54:06And where was your wife at the time?
00:54:08She was at the doctor's, Dr. Liddell's, in the village.
00:54:11Did you allow Mrs. Shepard to see her mother?
00:54:13No, I didn't.
00:54:14Why not?
00:54:15Because her mother didn't want to see her.
00:54:17She'd said so on many occasions.
00:54:19She never wanted to see or speak to Rebecca again after what she'd done.
00:54:23Did you tell this to Mrs. Shepard?
00:54:25Yes.
00:54:26She was very angry.
00:54:28But I wouldn't let her go upstairs, though she pleaded.
00:54:31And did she then go away?
00:54:34Eventually, yes.
00:54:35Now, I want to bring you forward to the 25th of September, the day your wife went into hospital.
00:54:41Was she worried about her operation?
00:54:43Oh, very worried, yes.
00:54:45She'd never been in hospital before.
00:54:47Did it cause you any anxiety?
00:54:49Very much so.
00:54:51Did you have any bar staff or helpers at the new inn?
00:54:55No, none.
00:54:55I was on my own, completely.
00:54:58And during this week, when did you visit your wife?
00:55:01Every morning, every afternoon, for an hour each time.
00:55:04While running the pub single-handed and visiting your wife in hospital, were you also looking after Mrs. Arthur on
00:55:11your own?
00:55:12I was.
00:55:14How would you describe her condition during this week?
00:55:17She was very sleepy.
00:55:19She complained of headaches a lot.
00:55:21I gave her dysprint for them.
00:55:23Yes, she had a jug of water.
00:55:24Is that so?
00:55:25Yes, yes.
00:55:26Did she drink very much of it?
00:55:28No, hardly drank any.
00:55:30Just sips now and again.
00:55:32And how did she look, physically?
00:55:34Oh, she didn't look bony like she always looked.
00:55:37Was she confused?
00:55:38No more than usual.
00:55:41During this week, the final week of her life, did she eat at all?
00:55:46Well, I took her food, but she didn't take, um, she didn't touch very much of it.
00:55:51And what do you mean by that?
00:55:52Well, I took her up her lunch, as usual, left it.
00:55:55When I came back, it looked as though she'd eaten some of it, though never very much.
00:56:01And did that worry you at all?
00:56:03No, I was more worried about my wife in hospital.
00:56:07What about going to the toilet? Could she manage that on her own?
00:56:10No, I had to help her.
00:56:11She was weak?
00:56:13Yes, she was.
00:56:14Did you consider that she might be ill?
00:56:18Well, I thought it was because she lay in bed so much.
00:56:22I mean, all day.
00:56:24On the 30th of September, Friday evening, what did you observe about Mrs. Arthur?
00:56:30Well, she hadn't eaten that day at all.
00:56:32She was very drowsy.
00:56:34So I let her sleep.
00:56:36The pub was busy.
00:56:38I was on my feet all night.
00:56:41But before I went to bed, I looked in on her.
00:56:45And she seemed to be asleep.
00:56:46So I didn't disturb her.
00:56:49Did you go right into the room?
00:56:50No, I just stood in the doorway and spoke to her.
00:56:53And what happened the next morning?
00:56:55I got up and looked in on her with a cup of tea.
00:57:00And I couldn't wake her.
00:57:02She was cold.
00:57:04Not breathing.
00:57:06I called Dr. Little.
00:57:08And did he confirm that she was dead?
00:57:10Yes.
00:57:12Thank you, Mr. Barber.
00:57:14Mr. Barber, on the 3rd of July, you successfully persuaded your wife that the two of you ought to take
00:57:19your share of responsibility for looking after Mrs. Arthur.
00:57:22Yes.
00:57:23What do you understand by the phrase taking responsibility when it applies to the care of another person?
00:57:29It means looking after them.
00:57:31In what way?
00:57:32In what way does it mean looking after them?
00:57:33Well, making sure they're well.
00:57:35I mean, well fed.
00:57:36Does it mean, in your understanding, making sure there's a proper supply of the necessaries of life?
00:57:41Yes, I suppose so.
00:57:42You suppose?
00:57:44Well, you put it better than me.
00:57:46Forget how I put it.
00:57:48Do you agree with the sentiment behind that definition?
00:57:50Yes.
00:57:51Very well.
00:57:52Let us keep it in mind.
00:57:54You say she looked thin, almost bony when she came to live with you.
00:57:58What exactly do you mean by bony?
00:58:00She looked skinny.
00:58:02Do you mean so skinny that her bones were protruding?
00:58:04Yes.
00:58:05But you did not think she looked underfed?
00:58:08Well, I thought that she was underfed looking, but I didn't actually think that she was underfed.
00:58:12You regarded her as underfed looking, but not underfed?
00:58:16Well, it depends on how you say it.
00:58:18I mean, if you say that somebody is stupid looking, it doesn't follow that they are in fact stupid, does
00:58:22it?
00:58:24Did you consider that one meal a day was sufficient for an old person in that state?
00:58:27Well, yes, she wouldn't eat too.
00:58:29Like my wife said, she spent all day in bed.
00:58:30She never used up any energy.
00:58:32Did you consider that one meal in two days was sufficient?
00:58:34No.
00:58:35Yet there were days when Mrs. Atherett ate nothing.
00:58:37Yes, because she wasn't hungry.
00:58:39Then there must have been occasions when she had only one meal in two days.
00:58:41Would you agree?
00:58:42Look, I never kept a record.
00:58:43I had a pub to run downstairs.
00:58:45She ate all she wanted.
00:58:46I wasn't going to force food on her.
00:58:48Despite the fact she threatened to starve herself to death?
00:59:00You cite this incident of the thrown food and the accusation that you were trying to poison her,
00:59:04the threat that she would starve herself.
00:59:06Yes.
00:59:07You say she accused you of not having been up to see her when in fact you had been up.
00:59:10You say she'd forget where she was, what time of day it was.
00:59:12Am I correct?
00:59:13Yes.
00:59:13Did she have a clock or a watch in her room?
00:59:15No.
00:59:16She had no television or radio, is that right?
00:59:18No, we offered her a radio, but she didn't want it.
00:59:20And she did not read?
00:59:21No, she wanted to read her.
00:59:22Not even newspapers or magazines?
00:59:24No, I think it was her eyes.
00:59:26Did it surprise you that she became confused?
00:59:28No, she was old.
00:59:29She was old?
00:59:30And that was the reason for her getting confused?
00:59:32Well, old people do get confused, don't they?
00:59:35You told us that your own mother went into a hospital psychogeriatric ward.
00:59:38Was she attended to by a doctor while in your care?
00:59:41Yes.
00:59:41Did you send for the doctor?
00:59:43Yes.
00:59:43What were your reasons?
00:59:45My Lord, is this evidence necessary?
00:59:48Mr. Saunders.
00:59:50My Lord, my learned friend used the evidence of the defendant's own mother, no doubt as an indicator of good
00:59:54character.
00:59:55I simply seek to use the same evidence to establish the defendant's previous experience in caring for an elderly person.
01:00:01Does that answer your question, Miss Miles?
01:00:04Yes, thank you, my Lord.
01:00:06What were the reasons?
01:00:08My mother behaved strangely.
01:00:10In what way?
01:00:11Well, she'd get up and go out in the middle of the night.
01:00:13She brought a tramp home once to the house.
01:00:15She'd talk about people in the house, people who weren't there.
01:00:18I can stop you there.
01:00:18Let me ask you this.
01:00:19Did not Mrs. Ather's behavior alarm you in the same way?
01:00:22No, it wasn't so extreme.
01:00:23Well, she threw her food on the floor, accused you of trying to poison her, threatened to starve herself, that
01:00:27it was not extreme?
01:00:27Not as extreme.
01:00:29That or the fact she was becoming weaker and having more difficulty in walking.
01:00:32No, no.
01:00:32You weren't alarmed in the slightest.
01:00:33Well, it's obvious I wasn't, otherwise I'd have told somebody.
01:00:37You truly believe that Mrs. Ather, upstairs in that room, arthritic, weakening, frequently without appetite, without medical attention, was receiving
01:00:46a proper supply of the necessaries of life?
01:00:48We did give her enough to eat.
01:00:50But did you give enough care as to how much she ate?
01:00:55I've already said she was an adult, capable of feeding herself.
01:01:00She knew how much she wanted.
01:01:01I suggest to you that supplying the food was half the duty.
01:01:04The other half was making sure she ate properly, and if she did not, getting medical attention for her.
01:01:09It all depends on your definition of properly, doesn't it?
01:01:11Were you aware of the large sum of money, a sum exceeding £50,000, which Mrs. Ather possessed in her
01:01:16bank?
01:01:16Of course I was.
01:01:17Was that not a factor contributing to your indifference as to whether she lived or not?
01:01:22We'd have to be monsters to do something like that, and you've no right to suggest it.
01:01:26She hadn't even made a will.
01:01:28We never even thought of her making one.
01:01:29In which case the money would have been divided equally between your wife and your sister-in-law, a still
01:01:33considerable amount.
01:01:34So what? We never even thought about it.
01:01:36When Mrs. Shepard, your sister-in-law, arrived and asked to see her mother, you refused, is that right?
01:01:41That's right.
01:01:42Didn't you consider that Mrs. Shepard had a perfect right to see her mother?
01:01:45After the way she treated her?
01:01:46Please just answer the question.
01:01:47No, I didn't think she had any.
01:01:49What was your reason for refusing Mrs. Shepard permission?
01:01:51Her mother didn't want to see her.
01:01:53Didn't you go upstairs at the time and ask her?
01:01:54No.
01:01:55And how did you know?
01:01:56Because she'd said so before.
01:01:58She never wanted to see Rebecca again.
01:02:00But wasn't she often in a confused state?
01:02:02How do you know Mrs. Ather meant what she said?
01:02:03Well, from the way she said it.
01:02:05Am I right in saying that had Mrs. Shepard been allowed to go upstairs and see her mother,
01:02:10she would have been the only other person to see her alive during her stay at the new inn?
01:02:14Yes.
01:02:14I put this to you that you did not want Mrs. Shepard to go upstairs.
01:02:19Because you did not want her to see her mother's state.
01:02:21I deny that strongly.
01:02:23She was depressed, you say.
01:02:24Didn't you feel she might benefit from a visit from her other daughter?
01:02:27No, I thought it might upset her.
01:02:29You consider yourself a better judge?
01:02:30In that instance, yes.
01:02:32During the last week of Mrs. Ather's life, your wife was in hospital leaving you in sole charge.
01:02:37Yes.
01:02:37Have you heard the medical evidence that by that time Mrs. Ather was already in a starved state
01:02:43and suffering from a disease, tuberculous meningitis,
01:02:46the symptoms of which are headaches, drowsiness, confusion, irritability,
01:02:49leading to loss of muscle control, paralysis and coma.
01:02:52Yes, I've listened to it.
01:02:53Did you tell us you did not notice Mrs. Ather was ill?
01:02:56I didn't think she was ill enough to send for a doctor.
01:02:58Ill enough? Are you saying you noticed she was ill?
01:03:01Look, my wife was in hospital. I was running the pub on my own.
01:03:04Are you saying you noticed she was ill?
01:03:06She was very weak.
01:03:08She had headaches.
01:03:09So weak, in fact, you had to help her to the toilet.
01:03:11Yes.
01:03:12Yet you believed her strong enough to feed herself?
01:03:14Yes.
01:03:15When you took up her food during that final week, where did you put it?
01:03:18Well, she always had it on a tray on her bed.
01:03:21You say that when you went up, it looked as though she'd eaten some of it,
01:03:24though never a great deal.
01:03:26Yes.
01:03:26What exactly do you mean by that?
01:03:28Well, she'd stir the food up with a fork.
01:03:29It was very difficult to tell just how much had been eaten.
01:03:32Stir it up with a fork. Can you be more precise?
01:03:33Yes, though she'd been picking it over.
01:03:35But surely you could tell how much had been eaten.
01:03:37Well, it looked as though some had been eaten.
01:03:39I suggest none had been eaten, mister.
01:03:40Look, I couldn't tell.
01:03:42You could not recognize a starving woman?
01:03:44A woman who was starving because she'd ceased to eat?
01:03:48No, I didn't realize that.
01:03:50When you went to visit your wife in hospital, who looked after Mrs. Affer?
01:03:54No one.
01:03:56She was all alone?
01:03:57Well, it was only for a couple of hours at a time.
01:04:00Why did you not tell someone she was there?
01:04:02Why did you not ask someone to look in on her?
01:04:04There was no one I could tell.
01:04:06If we hadn't been in the village long, we didn't know many people.
01:04:09You run a pub and you do not know many people?
01:04:11Well, not to ask them something like that.
01:04:13Like what?
01:04:13Well, to look in on an old woman.
01:04:15Did you wash Mrs. Affer during that final week?
01:04:19No, I didn't.
01:04:21When you looked in on her and observed that she was asleep after a day in which she ate nothing
01:04:28at all,
01:04:29did it not occur to you to go right up to her and check that she was all right?
01:04:32No, because I thought she was asleep and I didn't want to wake her up.
01:04:36How had she been that day?
01:04:38Very drowsy.
01:04:39She was a day away from death, Mr. Barber.
01:04:41Look, if I'd have noticed something, I would have called a doctor.
01:04:44I suggest you had left it too late.
01:04:47I suggest you were too frightened to send for the doctor.
01:04:53Members of the jury,
01:04:55who was responsible for the condition of this old lady when she died?
01:04:59Do not lose sight of the fact that for three months,
01:05:02she lay virtually alone in an upstairs bedroom of the inn,
01:05:06without any visitors,
01:05:08without any attendance of a doctor.
01:05:11only the regular attendance of the two people who were responsible for her care and well-being.
01:05:17Yet she died weighing only five stone eight pounds,
01:05:20with very little fat on her body,
01:05:22and in a starved and emaciated state.
01:05:26Does the fact that they never bothered to send for a doctor,
01:05:29not suggest to you the most negligent of attitudes?
01:05:34Does the fact that no one else ever saw Mrs. Ather,
01:05:37that Mrs. Shepherd even was turned away,
01:05:39not suggest to you that they could see the terrible condition she was in?
01:05:44For nearly 20 years we have heard,
01:05:47this old lady nursed her husband,
01:05:50at the hands of her daughter and son-in-law.
01:05:54Did she not deserve better?
01:05:57Members of the jury,
01:05:59we have been led to believe,
01:06:01that because Mrs. Ather was in a starved state,
01:06:04she developed tuberculous meningitis,
01:06:07the disease which killed her.
01:06:09However, Professor Mason has been prepared to admit,
01:06:12that all of that starvation,
01:06:14could have been attributable to the disease,
01:06:17and that a mere deficiency in diet,
01:06:19could have caused that tuberculosis to reappear,
01:06:22sometime before,
01:06:24the disease spread to the meninges.
01:06:28Now I suggest to you the possibility,
01:06:31that that disease did reappear,
01:06:34long before Mrs. Ather ever went to live with the barbers.
01:06:39And this presents us with a very different picture,
01:06:41because we can no longer be certain,
01:06:44that any neglect by the barbers,
01:06:47led to Mrs. Ather developing the disease which killed her.
01:06:53Will you members of the jury,
01:06:55consider this tragic case,
01:06:57not only with the utmost compassion,
01:06:59but also with a regard to the very strong,
01:07:02strong and nagging possibility,
01:07:05that there may have been, in truth,
01:07:09no crime committed?
01:07:12Members of the jury,
01:07:16every person who takes charge of another person,
01:07:21to provide the necessaries of life for that other person,
01:07:26is criminally responsible,
01:07:29if, by reason of neglect,
01:07:33death ensues to the person so neglected.
01:07:37If the neglect of duty is such as to amount to a reckless disregard,
01:07:45then the person responsible can be convicted of manslaughter.
01:07:54Now, what if the necessaries of life were provided and Mrs. Ather neglected herself?
01:08:05If medical advice was not sought,
01:08:08and you thought that that was a gross neglect of duty,
01:08:13then again,
01:08:16it would be open to you to convict of manslaughter.
01:08:20You must ask yourself
01:08:22how apparent the self-neglect was.
01:08:27There is no evidence that she did not eat during that three months.
01:08:34Though it is clear that she ate poorly,
01:08:40you must decide
01:08:42if there is a foundation for the very real possibility
01:08:47that she disposed of food
01:08:51when she said that she had eaten it.
01:08:56If you conclude
01:08:57that all the starvation took place during the disease,
01:09:04then you may attach less guilt to Mrs. Barber,
01:09:10who wasn't present during that final week.
01:09:15How you apportion guilt
01:09:17will depend on how extensive you think
01:09:21the period of neglect was.
01:09:26Finally,
01:09:27I must remind you
01:09:30that the burden of proof rests upon the prosecution.
01:09:34before you can convict either of them,
01:09:40you must be satisfied
01:09:42in either case beyond reasonable doubt
01:09:47that her death was brought about
01:09:51by the gross neglect
01:09:53of one or both the defendants
01:09:57in looking after her
01:09:58amounting to a reckless disregard
01:10:03whether she died or not.
01:10:09I must now ask you to retire,
01:10:12elect a foreman
01:10:14to speak for you
01:10:17and consider your verdicts.
01:10:22Members of the jury,
01:10:23will your foreman please stand?
01:10:25Please answer my next question,
01:10:27yes or no.
01:10:28Have you reached a verdict
01:10:29on which you are all agreed?
01:10:30Yes.
01:10:30Do you find Harold Barber
01:10:32guilty or not guilty of manslaughter?
01:10:34Guilty.
01:10:36And that is the verdict of you all?
01:10:37Yes.
01:10:38Do you find Grace Barber
01:10:40guilty or not guilty of manslaughter?
01:10:42Guilty.
01:10:43And that is the verdict of you all?
01:10:44Yes.
01:10:56Harold and Grace Barber
01:10:58being found guilty of manslaughter
01:10:59were sentenced to two years' imprisonment,
01:11:01suspended as to half.
01:11:03They can be released after one year
01:11:04and only serve the remainder of their sentence
01:11:06if they re-offended.
01:11:09Next week,
01:11:09a chance for you to join another jury
01:11:11in assessing the facts
01:11:12when our cameras return
01:11:13to watch a leading case
01:11:14in the Crown Court.
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