Crown Court - A Message to Ireland (1973) - video Dailymotion

Jezza

Crown Court: the gripping courtroom drama from the 1970s and 1980s.  Not all uploads are visible from the UK: either use a VPN or go to @ jezthorpe on my Daily Motion channel. 🙂👍 An acclaimed political author stands accused of the rare crime of 'incitement to disaffection'; in other words, encouraging two young soldiers serving in Northern Ireland to desert the army. Renowned film actor Mervyn Johns appears as the defendant.

Transcript

00:00:17British troops on patrol in Northern Ireland may often find themselves in

00:00:22direct confrontation with the civilian population. Traditionally the soldier

00:00:26fights on the battlefield, but in Northern Ireland the battlefield has

00:00:29been replaced by the suburban street. There is no traditional enemy, but instead a

00:00:35divided civilian population with extremists on both sides intent on

00:00:40waging war not only against each other but also against the army. It is against

00:00:46this background that a soldier must do his duty. One soldier, Trooper William

00:00:52Dugdale of the 16th Hussars, found he could not accept this situation and so he

00:00:56deserted his regiment. As a result of his desertion, Arthur Parfit, the author of

00:01:01the book Trespass Under Arms, has been charged with incitement to disaffection

00:01:06under a 1934 Act of Parliament.

00:01:27Trooper William Dugdale? Yes. Will you tell the court what you did on January the 6th of this year?

00:01:35We, that is, Ronald Fisk and I, left camp and crossed the border into the Republic.

00:01:40Trooper Dugdale, what word would you use to describe your actions on January the 6th?

00:01:45You were deserting, sir. And have you since been found guilty of that offence by a military court?

00:01:50Yes, sir. Why did you do it?

00:01:53Well, there were lots of reasons, really. Well, we'd been in Ireland about four months, all in Derry.

00:01:59We'd done our turn in the Bogside and Cregan. Well, it takes people different ways. I found it pretty depressing.

00:02:06Did any of your comrades find it pleasant patrolling the Bogside and the Cregan?

00:02:10Well, no, sir. That's what I would have thought. Yet how many of them deserted?

00:02:15Well, it was a sergeant who deserted his troop in Belfort. I meant from your regiment.

00:02:19Just Trooper Fisk and me.

00:02:21Would you say other members of your regiment were innately more courageous or innately more loyal than you?

00:02:25Mr Golding, I think that question should be rephrased.

00:02:29Well, all I'm trying to establish, my lord, is that Trooper Dugdale's morale was no lower than that of his

00:02:33comrades.

00:02:33Yes, I know exactly what you're trying to establish, but I should prefer to hear it in the witness's own

00:02:37words.

00:02:38As your lordship pleases.

00:02:41Trooper Dugdale, would it be natural for troops patrolling the Bogside of...

00:02:45How is this witness expected to know what is natural or unnatural for troops to do under particular conditions?

00:02:50I would have thought, my lord, that a regular serving soldier would be competent to express an opinion about the

00:02:55morale of his comrades.

00:02:56Morale, yes, but you were talking about courage and loyalty, different things altogether.

00:03:01But related, my lord.

00:03:02Too distantly for you to ask about them.

00:03:07Taking the regiment as a whole, was morale high at the time when you deserted?

00:03:12Well, it wasn't high, but then when you're fighting someone who isn't supposed to be your enemy, that's not surprising.

00:03:18Of course, there are always some fellows who don't mind, don't think a lot.

00:03:22Now, had you read at any time before you went to Ireland books on political science?

00:03:26Yes.

00:03:26Many?

00:03:27A few, at school in the sixth form and some afterwards.

00:03:30At school, where was that?

00:03:31High for grammar.

00:03:33That's in Kent.

00:03:33And what O levels and A levels did you obtain?

00:03:37Seven O's and two A's.

00:03:38And what were the subjects of the A levels?

00:03:40History and economics.

00:03:41Did you concentrate on any particular period of history?

00:03:44Modern history.

00:03:46And did the books which you read on political science include a book by the accused called Trespass Under Arms?

00:03:51Yes, sir.

00:03:53Did that book make much impression on you at the time?

00:03:56Not especially. No more than a lot of other books.

00:03:58Will you take a look at this book?

00:04:03Is that the book Trooper Duggan?

00:04:08Yes, sir.

00:04:10And is that your own copy, the one you bought two years ago?

00:04:12Yes.

00:04:13This is Exhibit One.

00:04:15Yes, my lord.

00:04:16I see.

00:04:22Well, how can you identify this as your own copy?

00:04:25Well, I know the books I wrote in it.

00:04:28Well, I see that certain passages have been underlined.

00:04:31Did you do this?

00:04:31Yes, sir.

00:04:32Yes, sir.

00:04:32I see.

00:04:36I take it you've no objection for the book going before the jury?

00:04:39No, my lord.

00:04:41Even though certain pages have been marked?

00:04:44The defendant has no objection to his book being introduced, my lord, either marked or unmarked.

00:04:49Thank you, Mr Lord.

00:04:50And when was your regiment posted to Northern Ireland?

00:04:52In September 1972.

00:04:55Hmm.

00:04:55I'd now like to ask you about the events prior to your desertion.

00:04:58Now, you've told us you went to Northern Ireland in September 1972, but you didn't desert until January 6th the

00:05:03following year.

00:05:04Did anything occur during those four months which led to your decision to desert?

00:05:09Well, I had Mr Parfit's book with me.

00:05:11I got it out and read it again.

00:05:13Why?

00:05:14Well, because of what was going on.

00:05:16It was like someone had made a film of his book walking up and down the streets of Derry.

00:05:20I got it out and there it all was in black and white.

00:05:23And there all what was?

00:05:23The wickedness of it.

00:05:25Look, we had no right to be there just like he says in his book.

00:05:27Oh, my lord.

00:05:28Quite.

00:05:29Does it say in the defendant's book that the troops should not walk up and down the streets of Londonderry?

00:05:35Well, it doesn't say London Derry, sir, no.

00:05:37In that case, you mustn't suggest that it does.

00:05:40Please continue, Mr Gowling.

00:05:42What was the effect on you of reading this book while you were stationed in Ireland?

00:05:46Well, it got me thinking again because I was there.

00:05:49It meant even more to me than the first time.

00:05:51I was shattered.

00:05:52Shattered?

00:05:53What do you mean by that?

00:05:54Look, until I'd read his book, I'd never realised there was another side to this business of armies

00:05:58tramping all over civilians.

00:06:00I mean, you think of troops in camps or on schemes or in action in a battle area.

00:06:05You don't think of troops in towns or in people's back gardens using arms in the street.

00:06:10You mean you never heard of it before?

00:06:11Yeah, I'd heard of it, but I'd never thought about it.

00:06:13I mean, after a war you get it or where there's been a revolution.

00:06:16But not in an ordinary country in peacetime.

00:06:18Trooper Dugdale, I want to be quite sure I understand what you're saying.

00:06:21Please correct me if I'm wrong.

00:06:22You're saying that until you read the accused book, Trespass Under Arms,

00:06:26you had no idea that armed troops ever operated anywhere in peacetime except inside prescribed military areas.

00:06:32No, I don't mean that.

00:06:33Look, what I mean is, until I'd read the book, I'd never realised the position the army was in.

00:06:38Well, that's rather different. What do you mean by position?

00:06:41Look, he says in his book, I marked it when I read it again.

00:06:45Now he says, in a proper undemocracy, civilians' rights and opinions are expressed through Parliament, through politics.

00:06:52And he also says, it's the job of the police force to protect civilians from other civilians and everyone knows

00:06:57where they stand.

00:06:58But he says troops are different. Now they come in from the outside.

00:07:02It's their job to resist aggression from the outside.

00:07:05And to have armed troops walking up and down the streets takes away people's political rights.

00:07:09And you've never met this line of argument before?

00:07:11Well, not like this. He had a whole chapter on how the police force belonged to the area where you

00:07:15live.

00:07:15And the troops come in from the outside. They're nothing to do with you.

00:07:19My lord, I've said I've no objection to the book itself being introduced, but I do object to the book's

00:07:24contents being reported in this garbled fashion.

00:07:27Well, can he not describe his reactions to this book as part of the raised jest story?

00:07:32Well, to my submission, no, my lord. We are being given his interpretation of certain passages out of context, which

00:07:38might lead to a false impression being created.

00:07:40Yes, well, I don't agree. What you call the witness's interpretation, may he describe the effect these passages had on

00:07:46the witness?

00:07:47I think the jury ought to hear the whole story.

00:07:49Yes, my lord, but the effect these passages had on the witness might be entirely untypical.

00:07:53Which, of course, you will be at great pains to demonstrate, Mr Lotterby.

00:07:59I shall permit this line of questioning, Mr Golding, but only so long as it concerns the effect of the

00:08:03book on this witness.

00:08:05My lord.

00:08:06I shall only permit this so that the jury can have the background to the really vital evidence.

00:08:12Had any other books which you read on political science shattered you?

00:08:15No, sir. It was nothing like this.

00:08:17Nothing like the accused's trespass under arms?

00:08:19No, sir. It got me in a right state, you know. I didn't know what to do.

00:08:24However, what did you do?

00:08:25Well, I wrote a letter to Mr Parfus.

00:08:28And what did you say in the letter?

00:08:29Well, I told him I'd read his book again and that I was very confused.

00:08:33Confused?

00:08:34About the rights and wrongs of being in Ireland.

00:08:36Anything else?

00:08:38Well, I asked him if he could recommend any other books on the subject that could help me sort things

00:08:42out.

00:08:42And did the accused reply to your letter?

00:08:44Yes, he wrote back.

00:08:45And what did you do when you got the letter?

00:08:46Well, I wrote back to him. He'd asked us to go and see him at his house.

00:08:50And we had some leave due so I wrote back and said that we would.

00:08:53By us, you mean Trooper Fisk and yourself?

00:08:55Yes, sir.

00:08:56And you told him the date you'll be arriving?

00:08:58That's right, yes.

00:08:59Are any of these letters available?

00:09:01Oh, my lord, none of them have come into the possession of the prosecution.

00:09:04Well, no doubt if the accused has any of the correspondence, it will be produced in due course.

00:09:10My lord, it may assist if I say straight away that none of these letters can be found.

00:09:14But it's not disputed that there was some correspondence?

00:09:17No, my lord.

00:09:18I see. Thank you, Mr. Sotterby.

00:09:20Continue, Mr. Golding.

00:09:22When did you first meet the accused?

00:09:24On December the 30th last year.

00:09:26Where?

00:09:27At his house, here in Forchester.

00:09:29You and Trooper Fisk?

00:09:30Yes, sir.

00:09:31Now, will you tell his lordship and the jury what occurred?

00:09:35Well, it was Saturday evening.

00:09:36We arrived about seven o'clock.

00:09:38We had a cup of tea, then went into Mr. Parfit's front room and had a long talk.

00:09:43And was the accused expecting you?

00:09:45Well, a bit late than we were meant to be.

00:09:46So he didn't know when we were coming, but he was expecting us.

00:09:49I see.

00:09:50And what happened after your talk?

00:09:52Well, we had some food and then went to bed.

00:09:55What time was that?

00:09:56Quite late, about one.

00:09:58So, let's see.

00:09:59You arrived at seven o'clock and you went to bed at one o'clock.

00:10:01That's six hours later.

00:10:03Well, apart from having your meal, what did you do during those six hours?

00:10:06We talked.

00:10:08All of you talked?

00:10:09Well, Mr. Parfit mostly.

00:10:11And what did he talk about?

00:10:13Ireland.

00:10:14The Troubles and that.

00:10:15For six hours?

00:10:16Well, like I said, I'd read his book again.

00:10:19I had a lot of questions and Mr. Parfit had a lot of answers.

00:10:22Trooper Dugdale, I'm now going to ask you about this conversation.

00:10:25You may be completely frank and tell us in your own words just what was said.

00:10:32Well, it was a lot of talk.

00:10:34Interesting talk.

00:10:35But it all came down to one thing.

00:10:37Now, what Mr. Parfit was saying was it's wrong for armed troops to be controlling a civilian population in peacetime.

00:10:43And he also said that each soldier was responsible for his own actions.

00:10:47He couldn't hide behind his officers or even the government.

00:10:49If a soldier did wrong against humanity, then he was at fault and he couldn't pass the blame often to

00:10:54anyone else.

00:10:55And did Mr. Parfit expand on this topic of passing the blame?

00:10:58Well, he talked about the Nuremberg trials after the war.

00:11:01About the Germans who'd gassed Jews and shot prisoners of war.

00:11:05Or the atrocities.

00:11:06He said that the lawyers at Nuremberg all agreed that it was the man who did the actual gassing.

00:11:12Or the man who pulled the trigger that shot the prisoner.

00:11:14He was the one responsible for the crime and not just the officers who gave him the orders.

00:11:19Well, how could all of this have anything to do with you and Trooper Fisk?

00:11:21Were you killing unarmed prisoners in Ireland?

00:11:23No, of course not. But he said we were putting ourselves in the same position.

00:11:28He said we were responsible adults behaving illegally.

00:11:31And we couldn't hide behind our officers just because they told us to do it.

00:11:58Trooper Dugdale, Mr. Parfit told you that you were behaving illegally and that you couldn't pass the blame often to

00:12:03the officers just because they gave you the orders.

00:12:06That's what he said, yes.

00:12:07What was said next?

00:12:09Well, we asked him what we could do about it and later on he told us and that's what we

00:12:13did.

00:12:13Now, Trooper Dugdale, you're saying that the accused actually advised you to desert?

00:12:19Well, he didn't use the word desert, sir. No.

00:12:21What word did he use?

00:12:23He said we should get ourselves out of it.

00:12:25Get yourself out of it, Majestad Men, that you should ask the military authorities to be sent away from Ireland.

00:12:31No, sir. No, he knew that was no good. We'd already talked about that.

00:12:34Then what did you understand him to mean?

00:12:36Get ourselves out of it the best way we could.

00:12:38Cross the border.

00:12:40Vanish.

00:12:42Dessert.

00:12:43So, in the context of the conversation you had had when the accused told you to get yourselves out of

00:12:48it, you understood him to mean that you should desert?

00:12:51Couldn't have meant anything else, sir.

00:12:53I see. One last question, Trooper Dugdale.

00:12:55When you left the accused's house the next morning, did he say anything to you to suggest that you should

00:12:59not get yourselves out of it or that he might have changed his mind?

00:13:03His last words to me, sir, were, don't forget what we talked about last night.

00:13:08You can't sidestep your responsibilities.

00:13:10And these were the words you acted on?

00:13:12Yes, sir.

00:13:13Thank you, Trooper Dugdale.

00:13:15Would I be right in saying that in Northern Ireland you were unhappy from the very beginning, from the day

00:13:20you arrived?

00:13:22I suppose so, yes.

00:13:23What made you unhappy? Life in the army or this particular work?

00:13:27The army was all right.

00:13:28And the job you had to do?

00:13:29I didn't like it.

00:13:31No, well I'm sure nobody actually enjoys the possibility of being shot in the back at any moment.

00:13:36I'm sure even your happy colleagues didn't enjoy that.

00:13:38It was the kids and the women.

00:13:40What do you mean by that?

00:13:41Well they hate you!

00:13:43That is something the troops have had to face since time immemorial now, isn't it?

00:13:47They're supposed to be our own people, sir.

00:13:49You mean if they hadn't been citizens of the United Kingdom you wouldn't have minded the women and children hating

00:13:53you?

00:13:54I didn't say that.

00:13:55No, but I'm asking you, would it have made a difference?

00:13:59Yes.

00:14:00Why?

00:14:00No.

00:14:01Well I don't mean that exactly.

00:14:03Look it's fighting civilians I'm talking about.

00:14:06Fighting the women and children?

00:14:07And the men!

00:14:08Look it's not a job for troops, the whole thing's political.

00:14:11It's a job for the politicians!

00:14:12Is that what your colleagues thought?

00:14:14Well no, like I said a lot of them don't think about it.

00:14:16But you did?

00:14:17Yes.

00:14:17Before you left England had you thought a good deal about the Irish situation?

00:14:21I'd thought about it.

00:14:23You were worried about it before you left, were you?

00:14:26About the women and children hating you?

00:14:27Well I suppose I was, but not especially then.

00:14:30Did you have many casualties in your regiment?

00:14:33Not many.

00:14:35How many?

00:14:35Three.

00:14:36Three dead?

00:14:38How many wounded?

00:14:39Five.

00:14:41Friends of yours?

00:14:42No.

00:14:44No?

00:14:45Yeah, two of these men were in your own squadron, weren't they?

00:14:49Didn't you know them?

00:14:51Yes I knew them, yes.

00:14:52But they weren't friends?

00:14:54Not friends, no.

00:14:55Well did you have many friends in the squadron?

00:14:57One or two.

00:14:58Well why only one or two?

00:15:00I don't know, how many should I have?

00:15:02Oh well it's just that I would have thought that in that situation,

00:15:04set down in the middle of a hostile community,

00:15:07you'd have looked for companionship amongst your comrades.

00:15:09I'd have thought you'd have found reassurance and courage amongst your friends.

00:15:15But not you.

00:15:16I didn't need friends for that.

00:15:18No, of course not.

00:15:20You had your books, didn't you?

00:15:21Well you had the defendant's book.

00:15:22Tell me, why did you buy that particular book?

00:15:25It looked interesting.

00:15:27Did you know of it?

00:15:27Had it been recommended?

00:15:29No.

00:15:30You saw it and bought it.

00:15:31Had you ever heard the name Arthur Parfit before?

00:15:33I may have, I can't remember.

00:15:35Don't you remember the enormous controversy when the book was first published?

00:15:38No.

00:15:39Well there were articles in all the papers about it.

00:15:41Discussions on television.

00:15:42You don't remember any of that?

00:15:44No.

00:15:44Well that's hard, isn't it?

00:15:46Someone who has studied political science like you have,

00:15:49missing out on all the excitement caused by the defendant's book.

00:15:52A book which you yourself carried in your kit bag,

00:15:54where others carry their field marshal's bat on.

00:15:58Perhaps you didn't study the subject at all.

00:16:01Perhaps you just dipped into it from time to time.

00:16:05In which case of course you might well have been startled by what the defendant had to say.

00:16:09In a way an expert would not have been startled.

00:16:11Look I did read politics, why else should I go and see him?

00:16:14To discuss the Nuremberg trials perhaps.

00:16:15No, to talk about his book.

00:16:17Yeah, and Nuremberg, we talked about that.

00:16:19What did you learn about Nuremberg at the defendant's house?

00:16:22Well you were saying about responsibility in that.

00:16:25Are you suggesting that the defendant actually compared your position in Northern Ireland

00:16:29to that of the SS in Buchenwald?

00:16:33Is that what you're suggesting?

00:16:34No, of course not.

00:16:36But he said there was a path that could lead from one soldier standing on a street corner

00:16:40to a whole cabinet in Downing Street made up of colonels.

00:16:44And is that why you deserted?

00:16:45No, you're cutting corners.

00:16:46Look, it's a long way from one to the other.

00:16:48From us in Derry to troops around the entire country, but it's a direct way.

00:16:52And you believe that?

00:16:53Yes, yes I do.

00:16:54Your studies and your experiences have led you to this conclusion?

00:16:57Yes.

00:16:57To the point where you could no longer bear the responsibility.

00:17:00You had to get out.

00:17:00Right.

00:17:02Are you seem very certain about all this, Trooper Dugdale?

00:17:04I am certain.

00:17:05If you spent six hours with me, could I change your mind?

00:17:09Probably not.

00:17:11Oh, my learned friend here with all his powers of persuasion.

00:17:14And yet you've told us the accused did just that.

00:17:17You arrived at seven in the evening for a quiet literary discussion

00:17:20and six hours later you were prepared to commit one of the most serious crimes open to a serving soldier.

00:17:26Now, what I want to know, Trooper Dugdale, is how the defendant was able to change your mind

00:17:30where another man couldn't.

00:17:31He talked.

00:17:33He's a great talker.

00:17:34Oh, I'm a great talker, Trooper Dugdale.

00:17:36It's my profession.

00:17:36But I couldn't do it.

00:17:37You said so.

00:17:38That's different.

00:17:39Now, you have different ideas, but Mr Parford and me, we start off the same.

00:17:43We agree.

00:17:45Before you even began talking?

00:17:47Yes.

00:17:49Now, let me get this quite straight.

00:17:51You were in agreement before you began talking.

00:17:54That is, you knew your own mind before you ever sat down in the defendant's house.

00:17:58Before you ever met him face to face.

00:18:00I'd read his book.

00:18:01Oh, so have tens of thousands of others.

00:18:02I haven't heard it suggested in this court that it was the book which caused you to desert.

00:18:06Is that what you're now saying?

00:18:07It was a part of it, yes.

00:18:09Right.

00:18:10Did Trooper Fisk, to your knowledge, read Trespass Under Arms?

00:18:13I don't know.

00:18:14He may have.

00:18:15We talked about it.

00:18:16Did he read it?

00:18:17Bits, perhaps.

00:18:18Bits you pointed out to him.

00:18:20Bits you'd underlined in the text.

00:18:22Well, I did underline.

00:18:23Are you now saying it was you and your use of selected passages in the defendant's book

00:18:26which caused Fisk to desert?

00:18:29It was nothing to do with me.

00:18:30Well, it was your book.

00:18:31You showed it to him.

00:18:32Trooper Dugdale, you don't need to answer that question.

00:18:36Mr Lotterby, these questions are such that the witness might incriminate himself.

00:18:40But it all happened in Mr Parfit's room, Sir Nottingham.

00:18:42I can't.

00:18:43Please continue, Mr Lotterby.

00:18:44I'm obliged, my lord.

00:18:46So you were saying that the decision to desert took place in the defendant's house.

00:18:52But not for you, Trooper Dugdale.

00:18:54You'd arrived with your mind made up, hadn't you?

00:18:56No doubts, no second thoughts.

00:18:58No one was going to change your mind, not even the defendant.

00:19:00Am I right?

00:19:01Look, he didn't have to.

00:19:02I'd read his books or he'd written letters.

00:19:04Ah yes, the letters.

00:19:05Well, we'll come to those in a moment.

00:19:07Now, the defendant said to you, you should get yourselves out of it.

00:19:11And you interpreted that as meaning you should desert.

00:19:14Nothing else he could have meant.

00:19:16But why didn't he say you should desert?

00:19:18I don't know.

00:19:19It's up to him what he says.

00:19:20There was no reason why he shouldn't have used the word desert, was there?

00:19:24Did the defendant strike you as a devious man, a man who used indirect language or allusion

00:19:29rather than saying exactly what he meant?

00:19:32Perhaps he didn't like to use the word desert.

00:19:34For fear of offending him?

00:19:36He spent six hours, according to your evidence, urging you to desert

00:19:40that he can't bring himself to use the actual word.

00:19:42Is that what you're suggesting?

00:19:44I don't know.

00:19:46No, Trooper Dugdale.

00:19:48On reflection, is it not possible that the words you should get yourselves out of it

00:19:52meant something other than that you should desert?

00:19:55That's what he meant.

00:19:56But it was too inhibited to say.

00:19:58I see.

00:20:01Now, the other words you remember being said, you can't sidestep your responsibilities.

00:20:07Did you take those words also to mean you should desert?

00:20:11Maybe we're all a part of it.

00:20:12What do you think he meant by those particular words?

00:20:14He was talking about decency, civilisation. Look, he had to stand by that.

00:20:19Did he seem concerned about the probable outcome of this perilous course he was urging upon you?

00:20:24I don't know about perilous. Fists never got caught.

00:20:27You don't regard desertion as perilous?

00:20:29Well, it depends.

00:20:31I mean, you don't think about what's going to happen to you. Just do it.

00:20:34Well, wouldn't you say that behaving like that could be pretty perilous?

00:20:37Well, it depends what you believe in.

00:20:38No, Trooper Dugdale, I suggest that it doesn't.

00:20:40If a man urges you to desert, then he's urging you to take the most hazardous leap into the dark.

00:20:45To cut yourself off from your chosen career and from a normal life.

00:20:48The best thing that can happen to a deserter is that he ends up where you've ended up.

00:20:53He may, like you, have acted from principle, but that doesn't minimise the disaster that awaits him.

00:20:58And you were saying that the defendant is the sort of man who would urge you to take a course

00:21:02which would entail for you all these things.

00:21:04Look, I only met him for six hours.

00:21:07Now, I know he believes what he says and I respect him for that.

00:21:10And he convinced me too.

00:21:12Maybe he thinks that acting from principle is worth the pain.

00:21:15He believes every man is responsible for his own actions.

00:21:19Look, he didn't push me across the border at gunpoint.

00:21:21He just opened my eyes to one or two things. I did the rest.

00:21:25He opened your eyes, but the decision was yours?

00:21:28Yes.

00:21:31Now, these letters, they're lost, aren't they?

00:21:35I didn't keep them.

00:21:36Why not?

00:21:38Why should I?

00:21:38Nothing important in them.

00:21:40Not really. Just the invitation to go and see him.

00:21:42So there was nothing in the defendant's letter to you touching the subject of desertion?

00:21:47Not in so many words.

00:21:49But you say he invited you to his house?

00:21:52Yes.

00:21:52Was a date mentioned?

00:21:54No, he said to come any time after Christmas, whenever we could get leave, just to let him know.

00:21:59And did you let him know?

00:22:00Yes, I did, yes.

00:22:01When you arrived, was there...

00:22:03Was he expecting you?

00:22:04Was there a fire in the grate, a meal on the table?

00:22:06We had a meal.

00:22:08What did you have?

00:22:11Sardines on toast.

00:22:14I see.

00:22:15And afterwards, you and Trooper Fisk stayed the night.

00:22:18Oh, were the beds made up?

00:22:21Oh, when the housekeeper knew we were staying the night, she made the beds up, yes.

00:22:25But weren't they made up already?

00:22:27If the defendant had been expecting you for dinner after a long journey from Ireland,

00:22:31surely he would have been prepared for you to stay the night, wouldn't he?

00:22:35I don't know.

00:22:36If he'd been expecting you.

00:22:38He was expecting us.

00:22:38But if not, then the whole situation looks rather different, doesn't it?

00:22:41Two strangers arrive on his doorstep at seven at night,

00:22:44he lets you in, gets his housekeeper to knock you up some sort of a meal,

00:22:47and then we'd have kept him up till one in the morning, arrange for you to stay the night.

00:22:52And no suggestion here of a carefully prepared plan to wine and dine two disenchanted young soldiers

00:22:58with a view to seducing them from their allegiance to Her Majesty.

00:23:02Nothing like that at all.

00:23:04So I put it to you, Trooper Dugdale, that the defendant, having no such plans,

00:23:08having no such intentions, was absolutely astonished to find you standing on his doorstep.

00:23:12No, that's not true!

00:23:13Look, he wrote to us, he asked us to go and see him.

00:23:16If that hadn't been for him, we'd never have crossed the border,

00:23:18and I wouldn't be standing here now.

00:23:47The case of the Queen against Parfit will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.

00:23:59The End

00:24:00The End

00:24:07The End

00:24:08The End

00:24:21In the past, a soldier fought on the battlefield, but today in Northern Ireland, the battles take place in the

00:24:28streets of Ulster.

00:24:30Extremists on both sides of the conflict are united in their attacks on the army.

00:24:34But the British soldier must try to keep the peace and to tolerate attacks and abuse from all sides.

00:24:39But is an army that is trained for war justified in controlling and sometimes even fighting a civilian population?

00:24:46This question worried Trooper William Dugdale, who was stationed in Northern Ireland with the 16th Azars.

00:24:52It led him to desert.

00:24:54Now, William Parfit, the author of the book, Trespass Under Arms, is on trial charged with incitement to disaffection.

00:25:01Yesterday, his defence counsel cast doubt on the claim that Parfit persuaded Trooper Dugdale to desert the army.

00:25:26You say you found Northern Ireland depressing.

00:25:29I found the job depressing.

00:25:31Just no doubt as thousands of others must have found it depressing.

00:25:34I don't know.

00:25:35But you're not telling us, are you, that you and possibly Trooper Fisk were the only soldiers in Northern Ireland

00:25:40who found your duties depressing?

00:25:42A lot of the fellows didn't mind.

00:25:44Only you and Trooper Fisk minded?

00:25:46It didn't bother any of your other colleagues that, to use your own words, the women and children hated you?

00:25:51The Protestants were all right. It was mainly the Catholics.

00:25:54And in 1972, how much time did you spend patrolling Protestant areas?

00:25:58Not a lot.

00:25:59It was mostly Catholic areas.

00:26:01Mostly, and searching cars and that.

00:26:03So virtually all British troops came in contact with Catholic women and children who hated you?

00:26:08Yes, sir.

00:26:09But only you and Trooper Fisk felt really depressed about it.

00:26:13It takes people different ways.

00:26:15Indeed it does, Trooper Dugdale.

00:26:17Depending on what influences they come in contact with.

00:26:20Mr Golding, may I just ask a question?

00:26:22Of course, my lord.

00:26:23Now, Trooper Dugdale, you've said that if you hadn't gone to the defendant's house on December the 30th, you wouldn't

00:26:29have deserted your regiment on January the 6th.

00:26:33Yes, sir.

00:26:34Well, then later you told the court that you went to the defendant's house with your mind made up.

00:26:40Now, which of these two inconsistent statements is correct?

00:26:43Well, it wasn't like that, sir.

00:26:44I've told you.

00:26:45But it must have been one or the other.

00:26:47Well, I was half persuaded when I went.

00:26:49But Ron Fisk wasn't persuaded at all.

00:26:51He had no idea of deserting until after he'd seen Mr Parfit.

00:26:54Unfortunately, Trooper Fisk isn't here to either confirm or deny that statement.

00:26:58So we have to confine ourselves to your evidence.

00:27:01But now, Trooper Dugdale, you say that you were half persuaded.

00:27:05Yes.

00:27:07Yes.

00:27:09Please continue, Mr Golding.

00:27:11How old are you, Trooper Dugdale?

00:27:13Twenty, sir.

00:27:15And when you told my learned friend that the accused opened your eyes, what did you mean?

00:27:19Well, he showed us that what we were doing in Ireland was wrong.

00:27:22And you believed him?

00:27:23Yes, sir.

00:27:24And was your decision to desert based on that belief?

00:27:27Yes, sir.

00:27:28Did anything else influence your decision?

00:27:29No, sir.

00:27:30Just what he told us.

00:27:33Does your Lordship wish to ask any other questions?

00:27:35No, Mr Golding.

00:27:36You may leave the witness box, Trooper Dugdale.

00:27:40I call Major Robin Hughes.

00:27:44Major Robin Hughes, please.

00:27:47What can I say, sir?

00:28:03What is your religion?

00:28:05Church of England.

00:28:07Take the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on this card.

00:28:11I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

00:28:16but the truth.

00:28:18Are you Major Robin Hughes?

00:28:20I am.

00:28:21And were you the company commander of A Squadron 16th Hussars at the time the regiment was stationed in Northern

00:28:26Ireland in 1972 and 73?

00:28:28I was.

00:28:28And were Troopers William Dugdale and Ronald Fisk in your squadron at that time?

00:28:33Until January the 6th, yes.

00:28:34Thank you, Major.

00:28:35Now, how long have you been a regular serving officer in the British Army?

00:28:38Nineteen years.

00:28:39Have you always been in a tank regiment?

00:28:42No, I started as a gunner, then I went on various courses and later transferred to the cavalry.

00:28:47And what courses were these?

00:28:48A gunnery course, general duties, and a rather more specialised course.

00:28:53It didn't have a name, really.

00:28:54A sort of general troop management.

00:28:56What makes a soldier tick, that sort of thing.

00:28:58Experimental it was, and very interesting.

00:29:01What makes a soldier tick?

00:29:02Could you tell us about the lecturers on this course?

00:29:05Yes, psychologists, personnel managers, all sorts of people.

00:29:09I must say it helped me a great deal, too.

00:29:11You can't know too much about what goes on inside a man's head.

00:29:14Of course, the Army's very keen to avoid putting round pegs into square holes.

00:29:18So anything that helps us to understand the men better is frightfully useful.

00:29:22Were there any other consequences of your having been on this course?

00:29:25Yes, I think so.

00:29:26I've sat on quite a number of selection boards since then.

00:29:29Anything else?

00:29:30Nothing can really put your finger on, except...

00:29:32I felt much more competent when dealing with men, especially men with problems.

00:29:37I think I've had a fair amount of success.

00:29:39Mind you, I'm not trying to claim that I'm a trained psychologist or anything like that.

00:29:42But these particular courses are pretty thorough.

00:29:45Thank you, Major.

00:29:46For how long altogether had you been Trooper Dugdale's company commander?

00:29:50Nearly ten months.

00:29:51And what did you feel when he deserted?

00:29:53Absolutely astounded.

00:29:55Why?

00:29:56Dugdale was an intelligent soldier.

00:29:58Clean, well turned out.

00:29:59I thought he had a good future ahead of him.

00:30:01Could you tell us more about that?

00:30:03The men and his troop looked up to him.

00:30:04And in June 72, I made him up to acting Lance Corporal.

00:30:07He did the job well.

00:30:09I think I was right.

00:30:10But what happened?

00:30:11Well, I'm afraid he crossed swords with a squadron sergeant major.

00:30:14And I had to take the stripe away.

00:30:16Regretfully.

00:30:17Could you tell us more about Trooper Dugdale's career during those ten months?

00:30:20There's nothing much to tell, really.

00:30:22He was up in front of me a couple of times.

00:30:24Once for being absent without leave while we were still in Londonderry.

00:30:28No, not Londonderry, but while we were still in Durham.

00:30:30And then once returning to camp late while we were still in Londonderry.

00:30:33I believe the AWOL in Durham was a genuine mistake.

00:30:36AWOL?

00:30:37Absent without leave, Mr Golding.

00:30:39Thank you, my lord.

00:30:40Well, of course, the other charge was far more serious.

00:30:42In Ireland, we had to keep a pretty close eye on where everybody was.

00:30:45He was only a couple of hours late, but I had to make an example.

00:30:48And did he appear in front of you on any other occasion?

00:30:51No.

00:30:52Major Hughes, I'd be grateful if you could tell us a little more about Trooper Dugdale.

00:30:55You mentioned three minor upsets, but you did say as well you thought he had a good career in front

00:31:00of him.

00:31:00Now, for the benefit of his lordship and the jury, could you resolve these apparent contradictions?

00:31:05Yes.

00:31:06Dugdale had a good mind.

00:31:08You only had to tell him something once...

00:31:10My lord, this evidence of Dugdale's mind is quite irrelevant.

00:31:13Is it?

00:31:14Mr Golding, is this witness giving factual evidence or expert evidence?

00:31:17My lord, I've called Major Hughes to give an expert opinion as to a soldier's worth and his prospects in

00:31:23the army.

00:31:23Yes, well, I think the question of whether or not Dugdale was a good or reliable soldier or what his

00:31:27career prospects were are relevant.

00:31:30Let's get on.

00:31:31Major Hughes?

00:31:32If a man went right through his army career and never once fell foul of his superiors,

00:31:37well, I'd say he was a pretty unremarkable sort of chap.

00:31:39Negative.

00:31:41Overcautious.

00:31:41Some of our most distinguished generals have tussled with the system in their time.

00:31:45It's not so much the mistake we look at, you see, but it's how the man responds.

00:31:49And how did Trooper Dugdale respond?

00:31:50Well, I thought.

00:31:51He was a bit sore about losing his stripe and he didn't like being confined to barracks.

00:31:55But I felt pretty sure he'd be made up again before long.

00:31:58Now, was there any other occasion, Major Hughes, when you had words with Trooper Dugdale?

00:32:02Ah, you mean the book, Trespass Under Arms. Yes, Dugdale had a copy.

00:32:06Yes?

00:32:07It was a squadron sergeant major who told me about it.

00:32:10Apparently Dugdale had left it lying about in the barrack room.

00:32:12The men had been discussing it.

00:32:14Maybe one or two rows, I think.

00:32:16Anyway, the sergeant major got to hear about it.

00:32:17And what did you do?

00:32:19Caught him reading it, as a matter of fact.

00:32:20I asked him what it was.

00:32:22He told me and I asked him if I could borrow it.

00:32:24I took it away with me.

00:32:26And what did you think of this book?

00:32:27A lot of damn rubbish.

00:32:29I think he was a fool to fill his head with that sort of stuff and I told him so.

00:32:32Thank you, Major Hughes.

00:32:34And how did Trooper Dugdale react to these opinions of yours, Major?

00:32:39React?

00:32:40And what do you mean, react?

00:32:40Did he agree with your view of the book?

00:32:43I didn't ask him.

00:32:44No.

00:32:45And you didn't return the book either, did you?

00:32:47You kept it right up till the time he deserted.

00:32:49Yes, that's right.

00:32:50In fact, you confiscated the book.

00:32:53I thought he was better off without it.

00:32:54In case you should get ideas?

00:32:56Something like that.

00:32:57Did it give you ideas?

00:32:58It gave me ideas what I should like to do to the author.

00:33:01Did it make you feel you ought to get out of the army?

00:33:03Good God, that piffle!

00:33:04Oh, the book was piffle, was it?

00:33:05And yet you feared for Trooper Dugdale.

00:33:07I wouldn't say feared.

00:33:09I just think that sort of seditious nonsense has no place in the barrack room.

00:33:12I'd have the man who wrote it locked up!

00:33:38Major Hughes, do you think a truly seditious book could have sat unmolested in bookshops up and down the country

00:33:45for the past eight years?

00:33:46All I know is that the army has a hard job to do, and books like that make it a

00:33:51damn sight harder.

00:33:53Major, I do thought it was one of the functions of the armed services to protect our right to read

00:33:58and publish all lawful books.

00:34:01We hear more and more these days about so-called rights, and less and less about duty and discipline.

00:34:05Oh, you'd like to see some of our traditional freedoms curtailed, is that right?

00:34:09A bit more censorship of what we read and what we think.

00:34:12Confiscation of all unsuitable books.

00:34:16Major Hughes, Trooper Dugdale was 24 hours absent without leave in Durham.

00:34:21But you dismissed the charge. Why?

00:34:22Because the squadron clerk had made his leave form out incorrectly.

00:34:26A slip of the pen by the clerk which Trooper Dugdale fully exploited.

00:34:31Now surely he knew when he really had to be back in camp.

00:34:33Whether he knew it or not, the fact remains that the clerk had made a mistake.

00:34:37And three days CB in Ireland for a breach of discipline that normally wanted it, what?

00:34:41Seven or even fourteen days CB?

00:34:43Every case is treated on its merits. There is no set punishment.

00:34:47You expected great things of Trooper Dugdale, didn't you?

00:34:50I thought he'd make a good soldier, yes.

00:34:51Why him particularly?

00:34:53Well, because he's the sort of man the modern army is looking for.

00:34:56Educated, intelligent. He doesn't take things at their face value.

00:34:59You must have been very disappointed when he let you down so badly on January the 6th.

00:35:03I don't blame him. I blame the man who corrupted him.

00:35:06Major, we are here to decide whether anyone tried to corrupt this soldier.

00:35:10If you've reached your own conclusions, you must keep them to yourself.

00:35:14Yes, I see. I'm sorry, the Lord.

00:35:16Now, you say Dugdale crossed swords with the squadron Sergeant Major.

00:35:20Could you tell us about that?

00:35:22Well, it was a stupid business really.

00:35:23Sergeant Major didn't like the way Dugdale kept things under the pillow on his bunk.

00:35:27Regulations state that everything has to be put away in the locker during the day.

00:35:31By things do you mean in this case a book?

00:35:33Yes, that book.

00:35:34Mm-hmm.

00:35:35And it wasn't under the pillow where the Sergeant Major probably would have seen it,

00:35:39but on the pillow where everyone could see it.

00:35:42So it was said.

00:35:43And when Dugdale was told to put the book in the locker, he said to the Sergeant Major...

00:35:47Oh, my lord, my lonely friend has a copy of the transcript.

00:35:50Thank you, Mr. Lotterby.

00:35:52Dugdale said to the Sergeant Major,

00:35:55Don't be so bloody silly.

00:35:57You lot want to wake your ideas up.

00:35:59Is that how the conversation was reported to you?

00:36:02Yes.

00:36:02A rather disrespectful tone to take with a squadron Sergeant Major, isn't it?

00:36:06I've never been sure in my mind what the Sergeant Major said to provoke those remarks.

00:36:10Provoke, Major Hughes?

00:36:12Under what circumstances does an acting Lance Corporal say to a Squadron Sergeant Major,

00:36:16Don't be so bloody silly.

00:36:17He did lose his stripe over it.

00:36:19He was lucky not to find himself in the cells, wasn't he?

00:36:22And yet you say he was sore about losing his stripe.

00:36:25What did he expect?

00:36:27Congratulations.

00:36:29I then went on to say I was pretty sure he'd be made up again before long.

00:36:34Was this optimistic opinion shared by the Squadron Sergeant Major?

00:36:38Dugdale made mistakes.

00:36:39We all know that.

00:36:40But he's the sort of man the modern army needs.

00:36:42An educated, intelligent soldier.

00:36:45Officer material, perhaps.

00:36:47Possibly.

00:36:48His colleagues looked up to him, you said.

00:36:49Yes.

00:36:50A leader of men.

00:36:51I thought so.

00:36:52And yet after a few hours' conversation with the defendant,

00:36:55your leader of men packs up the whole thing and decides to become a deserter.

00:36:59Which only goes to show what sort of a man path it is.

00:37:02People like him are trained to break down morale and destroy careers.

00:37:05We know because he did it!

00:37:06Major, please remember what I said.

00:37:09Go on, Mr. Lotterbeard.

00:37:11We know nothing of the sort, Major Hughes.

00:37:14And the only people who can tell us are the jury.

00:37:17But what we do know is that your protégé, your modern educated soldier,

00:37:21after being dealt with most leniently by you, had a bad fit of the sulks, forced himself on the accused

00:37:29and then flitted off into the Irish Republic.

00:37:33Well, if he's the sort of man the modern army needs, Major, all I can say is I'm thankful we've

00:37:39got two other services.

00:37:41Any more questions, Manuel?

00:37:45Major Hughes, when you say Trooper Dugdale is the sort of man the army needs, what do you mean?

00:37:51I mean that he has many of the qualities we look for in a modern soldier.

00:37:55The fact that he could be corrupted and seduced away from his loyalty I think has more to do with

00:37:59his age than anything else.

00:38:01Parfit's a much older, more experienced man.

00:38:03He'd know how to influence a young fellow at twenty.

00:38:05I mean they're trained to do it, aren't they, these communists and anarchists?

00:38:08Oh, my lord.

00:38:09Major Hughes, do you say that you know the accused to be a communist and an anarchist?

00:38:14I know the type, my lord.

00:38:16That doesn't answer my question.

00:38:18In that case, no, my lord. I don't know him to be an actual member.

00:38:21Or have sympathies.

00:38:23Oh, these chaps are always very clever at hiding their true colours.

00:38:26But not from you, apparently.

00:38:29If you have evidence to support your statement that the accused is a trained corrupter, I think we ought to

00:38:34hear it.

00:38:36Do you have any evidence?

00:38:38No, my lord.

00:38:40Members of the jury, you will ignore the remarks this witness has made concerning the defendant's political views.

00:38:46They are completely without foundation.

00:38:49Mr Golding.

00:38:50I'm obliged, my lord, yes.

00:38:53Major Hughes, you think Trooper Dugdale was susceptible to influence?

00:38:57Yes, I do.

00:38:58Despite his undoubted good qualities, his youth was against him?

00:39:01I've no doubt about it.

00:39:02Thank you, Major Hughes.

00:39:04You may leave the witness box, Major Hughes.

00:39:06I call Mr Joseph Fisk.

00:39:14Joseph Fisk, please.

00:39:31What is your religion?

00:39:33Church of England.

00:39:35Take the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on this card.

00:39:41I swear by mighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the old truth, nothing but

00:39:46the truth.

00:39:49Are you Mr Joseph Fisk of 18 Gibraltar Road, Canningtown, London?

00:39:53Yes.

00:39:54And are you the father of Trooper Ronald Fisk, lately of the 16th Hazard?

00:39:58Yes, I am.

00:39:59Mr Fisk, can you tell the court what sort of relationship you have with your son?

00:40:03How did the two of you get on together?

00:40:04Oh, smashing.

00:40:06Ron and me was always very close.

00:40:07Especially after his mother died.

00:40:09And when did that happen?

00:40:11About three years ago.

00:40:12She got knocked down by a car in the Barking Road.

00:40:14That must have come as a dreadful shock to you and your son.

00:40:17It was terrible.

00:40:18Ron took it very bad.

00:40:20He used to be a bit of a tear away, you know, willful.

00:40:23Couldn't do a thing with him.

00:40:25Then after the accident he had a change of character.

00:40:28He quietened down a lot.

00:40:29And of course he wanted to go in the army.

00:40:31Not my old regiment, he wanted to go into tanks.

00:40:34But he went with my blessing.

00:40:35Did he make any friends in the army?

00:40:37Oh yeah, he always had lots of friends.

00:40:39Especially after the accident.

00:40:40He seemed to want to be with people, you know.

00:40:43And was Trooper Dugdale a friend of him?

00:40:46He only mentioned Dugdale's name once.

00:40:48I don't think they were friends, no.

00:40:50And was your son happy in the army?

00:40:53Yeah, very happy indeed.

00:40:55Then how do you count for the events on January the 6th of this year?

00:40:59I don't know. Search me.

00:41:01Thank you, Mr Fisk.

00:41:04Did your son write letters to you, Mr Fisk?

00:41:08No, not really.

00:41:09Does that mean no, not at all?

00:41:11Yes.

00:41:12Why was that?

00:41:13Well, he wasn't much of a letter writer.

00:41:16Had he been much of a writer at school?

00:41:19No, not much, no.

00:41:20Or much of a reader?

00:41:23No, not much.

00:41:24He preferred doing things out of doors best.

00:41:26Out of school, you mean?

00:41:28Eh?

00:41:29Your son didn't much care for school, did he?

00:41:32What do you mean by that?

00:41:33What have you been digging up now?

00:41:34Oh, his attendance record, Mr Fisk.

00:41:37Not good, was it?

00:41:38He always went back when I told him.

00:41:40Yes.

00:41:41And it seems he had difficulty reading.

00:41:43He could read.

00:41:44He wouldn't have been in the army otherwise, would he?

00:41:46But he had difficulty.

00:41:48He didn't care for it much, no.

00:41:49I'd like the witness to see Exhibit 1, please.

00:41:54Now, Mr Fisk, that is a work of political science written by the accused.

00:41:58In your opinion, could your son have read that book?

00:42:02I don't reckon I could read it, let alone him.

00:42:04Oh, thank you.

00:42:06So, your son was a poor scholar and a frequent truant.

00:42:10Were you really so surprised, Mr Fisk, when your son played truant on January the 6th of this year?

00:42:15Yes, I was.

00:42:17Mr Fisk, would you say your son was extremely fond of his mother?

00:42:23Yes.

00:42:24Was she the only one who could really control him, would you say?

00:42:27I wouldn't say that, no.

00:42:28He could get round her, but he couldn't get round me.

00:42:30But, as you said, he was profoundly affected by her death.

00:42:34Well, what do you expect?

00:42:34Oh, just that, Mr Fisk.

00:42:36Because six weeks later he joined the army.

00:42:39Yes, well, he wanted to get away from it, I can understand that.

00:42:41Had he ever spoken to you about wanting to join the army?

00:42:45No.

00:42:46In fact, it came to you as a complete surprise, didn't it?

00:42:48Just a bit, yes.

00:42:49Yes, and I suggest that army life came as a complete surprise to your son.

00:42:53What do you mean?

00:42:54He was a wilfully young man, used to getting his own way with his mother,

00:42:57who suddenly finds himself having to face up to real discipline.

00:43:00In his school days, when he hadn't liked something, he just walked away from it.

00:43:04Well, I put it to you, Mr Fisk, that your son didn't much like the army,

00:43:07so he fell back on the only solution he knew. He walked away.

00:43:11You must be crazy.

00:43:12Well, that's what he did. He ran away.

00:43:14Yes, but not for that reason. He was got at.

00:43:17Was he got at at school, Mr Fisk?

00:43:19Was there another Arthur Parfit there whispering in his ear,

00:43:22telling him to play truant?

00:43:24That could have been, yes.

00:43:26Really? Who?

00:43:28I don't know anyone. Any one of the other boys.

00:43:30Are you serious, Mr Fisk?

00:43:32Of course I'm serious.

00:43:33Well, in that case, could we know the name of this young, evil-minded genius?

00:43:38I don't know. Could have been anyone. There was over 40 kids in Ron's class.

00:43:42Didn't you ever try to find out who it was?

00:43:44Find out?

00:43:45To help your son.

00:43:48Crazy. How could you find out?

00:43:49Well, if you tried hard enough, if you cared enough,

00:43:51you might have succeeded, if there really was someone.

00:43:55Yeah, that's why I didn't.

00:43:55Didn't care, Mr Fisk?

00:43:57Yeah, watch it. That's my son Ron you're talking about.

00:43:59He's all I've got left.

00:44:01Do you reckon I wouldn't care?

00:44:02Well, what else can one think? You did nothing to help him.

00:44:04That's bloody liable, that is. I worked night and day for that boy.

00:44:07Mr Fisk.

00:44:07I told him a hundred times, if he didn't go to school, he'd end up inside.

00:44:10And I bloody will tell him what-

00:44:11Mr Fisk!

00:44:12I will not have that language used in this court.

00:44:15I'm sorry, sir.

00:44:16You got me at it. You heard what you said, didn't you?

00:44:19I accept your apology this time.

00:44:22Please continue.

00:44:23I'm most grateful, my lord.

00:44:25So, Mr Fisk, you told him he'd finish up inside, did you?

00:44:30In fact, you predicted what would happen.

00:44:32It was just to warn him.

00:44:33Well, you may not have been very successful as a disciplinarian, Mr Fisk,

00:44:37but you were something of a prophet, weren't you?

00:44:41No more questions, my lord.

00:44:43Do you wish to re-examine, Mr Goley?

00:44:45Thank you, my lord.

00:44:47Mr Fisk, we've heard your son occasionally played truant from school

00:44:51and that he wasn't particularly good at reading and writing.

00:44:53Well, I shan't waste the court's time by mentioning all the great men

00:44:56who've had a similar problem, from Shakespeare to Winston Churchill.

00:45:00But it might be helpful if you could tell us a little about your own school days.

00:45:04Were you a distinguished scholar?

00:45:07I must be joking.

00:45:09Did you ever find other things to do when you should have been at school?

00:45:12We've been like playing truant?

00:45:14Yeah, once or twice.

00:45:16In fact, were your school days very different from those of your son?

00:45:19I don't think I learned as much, as a matter of fact.

00:45:23Mr Fisk, could you tell us what you did between 1941 and 1946?

00:45:27Yeah, I joined the army in 1941.

00:45:29I got sent to Burma.

00:45:30I was with the 14th Army all through that lot.

00:45:33I finished up signed major.

00:45:34Were you wounded?

00:45:36Once or twice, nothing much.

00:45:38Anything else?

00:45:40Got the military medal.

00:45:41For what?

00:45:42Well, they called it bravery.

00:45:44Our platoon cut off.

00:45:45We had to fight our way back to the line.

00:45:47You make it sound very ordinary, Mr Fisk.

00:45:50Were many people decorated in your regiment?

00:45:52One or two, yeah.

00:45:54One or two.

00:45:55Out of a whole regiment.

00:45:57And when you came home after the war, what did you do?

00:46:00Well, there wasn't much to do.

00:46:02I've done a bit of tutting.

00:46:03Started my own business.

00:46:04Scrapped army surplus, you know.

00:46:06Did the business succeed?

00:46:08I'd done all right.

00:46:09So, despite a lack of enthusiasm for school,

00:46:12you served with distinction in the army

00:46:13and have since run a successful business.

00:46:16Now, do you know, Mr Fisk, any reason why your son

00:46:18should not have done the same?

00:46:19Oh, none at all.

00:46:20As he was got at.

00:46:22See, when youngsters get upset, they look to older people for help.

00:46:26But if you come up against a bad'un like Parfit...

00:46:28Oh, my lord, the witness has no grounds for making that statement.

00:46:30Quite, Mr Lotterby.

00:46:31Mr Fisk, you are here to give factual evidence

00:46:34to those things that you know to be true.

00:46:36Not to express your private opinions of the defendant.

00:46:39Yeah, but I do know it to be true, sir.

00:46:43Have you ever met the defendant?

00:46:45No.

00:46:46Have you ever had personal dealings with the defendant?

00:46:49Over on, yes.

00:46:50No, Mr Fisk, not your son.

00:46:52You.

00:46:53No.

00:46:54Well, have you ever had proof that he wanted to harm you?

00:46:57Not me, myself, personal, no.

00:47:00In that case, your remarks are not admissible.

00:47:03Members of the jury, you will ignore what this witness has said about the defendant.

00:47:07His opinions are without foundation and should play no part in your assessment of the defendant's character or actions.

00:47:14Mr Golding, if you have any further questions for this witness, I suggest you choose a different line.

00:47:19I am obliged, my lord, but no further questions.

00:47:22You may leave the box, Mr Visley.

00:47:25That is the case for the prosecution, my lord.

00:47:28I call the defendant, Arthur Charles Parfit.

00:48:09The case of the Queen against Parfit will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.

00:48:37When the tanks rolled into Hungary, the civilian population ran for their lives.

00:48:42Soldiers found themselves pointing guns at their former comrades.

00:48:46But this was not a battle between soldiers.

00:48:48Instead, the enemy was a civilian population.

00:48:52An army trained for war was in confrontation with the men and women in the streets.

00:48:57Did these soldiers feel troubled at having to fight their fellow countrymen?

00:49:01Arthur Charles Parfit, author of the book, Trespass Under Arms, believes that troops have no place in a civilian struggle.

00:49:09He's been accused of inciting two British soldiers to desert their regiment in Northern Ireland.

00:49:14Today, Parfit enters the witness box to give his interpretation of loyalty and personal responsibility.

00:49:21Mr Parfit, are you a law-abiding man?

00:49:24Yes, I think so.

00:49:25Have you ever knowingly broken the law?

00:49:26I was once found guilty of assaulting a policeman.

00:49:30That was after a public meeting in Trafalgar Square in 1956.

00:49:34I was fined 25 pounds.

00:49:37But I'm afraid I couldn't agree with the verdict.

00:49:40Did you actually assault the policeman?

00:49:42I wouldn't have had the nerve.

00:49:43No, I was grabbed indiscriminately.

00:49:46And the next morning found myself in the magistrate's court.

00:49:49But still, 25 pounds was a good deal less than it might have been.

00:49:54So perhaps there was some doubt on the bench as well.

00:49:57Do you think you were unfairly treated on that occasion?

00:50:00Not really.

00:50:01The police and the magistrates have a difficult job to do sometimes.

00:50:06I wasn't breaking the law, but I can see that they might have thought I was.

00:50:11So you have never knowingly broken the law?

00:50:13No, never.

00:50:14Have you ever advocated law-breaking?

00:50:16Certainly not.

00:50:17In your books or in your lectures,

00:50:19have you ever recommended a course of action that in your opinion

00:50:22might have led to law-breaking?

00:50:24In my own mind, never.

00:50:26But of course, one can't be sure of how people will interpret what one says.

00:50:31It's one of the ironies of human history

00:50:34that good words are quoted by evil men to justify their actions.

00:50:39I believe Hitler used to quote Shakespeare

00:50:42to justify his treatment of the Jews.

00:50:46Obviously, he never got as far as Antonio's speech.

00:50:50The devil can cite scripture for his purpose.

00:50:53Yes.

00:50:54Now, Mr. Parfit, I'd like to clear up the question of the invitation

00:50:58you did or did not extend to troopers Dugdale and Fisk.

00:51:02Now, may we start from the very first time Dugdale wrote to you?

00:51:06Yes, indeed.

00:51:07That was in October, I think.

00:51:10As he says, he wrote asking for a book list.

00:51:12I wasn't quite sure what he was after,

00:51:16but I jotted down a few names and sent it to him.

00:51:20The subject isn't easy.

00:51:22It touches on international law, the Geneva Convention,

00:51:27and various other agreements.

00:51:28But I sent and suggested a few general works.

00:51:32As far as you know, did Dugdale read any of these books you suggested?

00:51:36No, it seems not.

00:51:38And these books, did any of them express a view different from your own?

00:51:41Good heavens.

00:51:42Good heavens.

00:51:42You'd have a job finding two authorities who agreed.

00:51:46And, Mr. Lotterby, if I may, I'd like to settle once and for all

00:51:52what we are really talking about.

00:51:53Yes, that might be helpful.

00:51:55It's not really political science.

00:51:58It's much nearer to moral philosophy.

00:52:01And I suggest we start with Socrates himself.

00:52:06Start with Socrates?

00:52:07There's no better place, my lord.

00:52:10Would you be drawing comparison with yourself and Socrates, Mr. Parfit?

00:52:15He was accused of corrupting the youth of Athens.

00:52:19Yes, I did know that, Mr. Parfit.

00:52:21However, I don't think this is the place for a philosophy lecture.

00:52:25If your views are relevant to your defence,

00:52:27perhaps we could hear it in a few brief words.

00:52:30If I can, my lord.

00:52:32My whole thesis centres on personal responsibility.

00:52:36On the one hand, it rests on existentialism.

00:52:40On the other hand...

00:52:41Mr. Parfit, brief words.

00:52:43Words that we can all understand.

00:52:45Perhaps I can help, my lord.

00:52:47I do wish you would.

00:52:49Mr. Parfit, for the sake of brevity,

00:52:51do you believe that each man is responsible for his own actions?

00:52:55I believe that the good society offers every man his freedom,

00:52:59in exchange for responsible actions.

00:53:03Now, that really wasn't very difficult, was it, Mr. Parfit?

00:53:05It leaves aside the question of cause, method and motive.

00:53:10I'm afraid we shall have to stifle our disappointment in these respects, Mr. Parfit.

00:53:15Please continue, Mr. Latterby.

00:53:17Right, my lord.

00:53:18Mr. Parfit, did you invite Dugdale and Fisk to your home

00:53:23on the evening of December the 30th last year?

00:53:26No.

00:53:27What I said was that if they happened to be in the neighbourhood of Fulchester,

00:53:31I'd be happy to arrange a meeting at some convenient time.

00:53:35And was a time and a date agreed?

00:53:37No.

00:53:38The last letter I had from Mr. Dugdale told me

00:53:41that he hoped to be coming over to England in the new year,

00:53:44and that he'd telephone and arrange a meeting.

00:53:46But you didn't give an open invitation?

00:53:49I couldn't possibly.

00:53:50I have so many engagements.

00:53:52So when Dugdale and Fisk turned up that Saturday night,

00:53:55you were surprised?

00:53:57Astonished.

00:53:58But you invited them in?

00:54:00Well, what else could I do?

00:54:02We hadn't got much food in the house,

00:54:04but Mrs. Cummings, my housekeeper,

00:54:06made them up some sort of a meal.

00:54:08And we put them in the spare room for the night.

00:54:11Now, Mr. Parfit, without going into any technical language,

00:54:14can you tell us what you talked about that evening?

00:54:16It wasn't a very profound discussion.

00:54:19We talked about personal responsibility,

00:54:22right and wrong, evaluation, judgement.

00:54:25Did your guests take an equal part in the discussion?

00:54:28Mr. Dugdale asked quite a lot of questions.

00:54:31He's got an inquiry mind, as the Major said.

00:54:34But he was looking for justifications rather than the truth.

00:54:38Working from a hypothesis is one thing.

00:54:41Looking for excuses is quite different.

00:54:45Excuses?

00:54:46Well, Dugdale had a grudge.

00:54:49He felt the army had treated him badly.

00:54:51Take the question of losing his stripe.

00:54:54Well, he felt that he'd been victimised by the Sergeant Major

00:54:58and let down by the officer.

00:55:00I think he wanted to get his own back.

00:55:02What do you base this on?

00:55:04Well, just on some of his questions.

00:55:07Should one always obey senior officers?

00:55:09What should one do if one was given an objectionable order?

00:55:15We're nearly back to...

00:55:17Is it right to guess Jews?

00:55:19Did Trooper Fisk ask many questions?

00:55:22I can't remember him asking any.

00:55:25None at all?

00:55:26I think he asked if they were showing Match of the Day on television.

00:55:31So he didn't contribute very much?

00:55:33No.

00:55:34Do you think he gained much?

00:55:35I find it difficult to believe he did.

00:55:38And Trooper Dugdale?

00:55:39Well, he would take out what he wanted from the conversation

00:55:42and ignore the rest.

00:55:44He wasn't in honest pursuit of knowledge.

00:55:48Did you say to the two soldiers,

00:55:50you should get yourselves out of it?

00:55:53Yes, I may have done.

00:55:54And what were you referring to?

00:55:56The dilemma they were in.

00:55:57And what dilemma was this?

00:55:58Well, Dugdale had a vast tip on his shoulder about the army.

00:56:03Fisk, well, he was out of step with everything.

00:56:07And I said that they should face up to their responsibilities.

00:56:10And you repeated this when they left?

00:56:13I did.

00:56:14Now, Mr. Parfit, we heard Major Hughes describe your book as seditious nonsense.

00:56:19Has anyone ever accused you of sedition before?

00:56:22Never.

00:56:23You talk to a...

00:56:25You lecture to a wide variety of people.

00:56:27What sort of people?

00:56:29Well, where does one start?

00:56:32The Conservative Women's Clubs, Christian Societies,

00:56:36and even to a group of army officers once.

00:56:39And were you ever accused of sedition at any of these lectures?

00:56:42Far from it.

00:56:44Thank you, Mr. Parfit.

00:56:48Mr. Parfit, do you think you could do my job or my learned friends?

00:56:52I've never really thought about it.

00:56:55Well, that's not quite true, is it?

00:56:57Didn't you once plan to make a career of law?

00:56:59Oh, that's so long ago that I hardly remember.

00:57:02Even though you went through all the turmoil of studying for and failing your bar examinations?

00:57:07I'm over 70, sir.

00:57:08I'm familiar with turmoil.

00:57:10Hmm.

00:57:11However, the law has always fascinated you, its rules and its loopholes.

00:57:15Well, show me a human institution, and I'll show you the loopholes.

00:57:20Is the law any different?

00:57:22Or the army, Mr. Parfit?

00:57:23You tried your hand at that too, didn't you?

00:57:25Fifty years ago, I was of an age to experiment.

00:57:29I wasn't right for the army, I wasn't right for the law.

00:57:32But I've survived.

00:57:34Did you buy yourself out of the army?

00:57:36I didn't have the funds.

00:57:38Yet the army gave you a complete discharge.

00:57:40Anyone would think they were glad to see the back of you.

00:57:43It isn't exactly the most imaginative of institutions.

00:57:46Oh, you mean they didn't appreciate you?

00:57:48The feeling was mutual.

00:57:50Really?

00:57:51And you accuse young Trooper Dugdale of having a chip on his shoulder?

00:57:54At his age, I might have felt the same.

00:57:56And not just at his age, Mr. Parfit.

00:57:58I put it to you that fifty years have not wiped away one iota of the humiliation you suffered

00:58:02at being chucked out by both the army and by the law.

00:58:06And I put it to you that in the years between, you've lost no opportunity

00:58:09of ridiculing and undermining first one institution and then the other.

00:58:13Justify that remark.

00:58:15My justification sits there, a victim of your bitterness,

00:58:19of your determination to get even with the institutions that kicked you out.

00:58:23All I can say of you, sir, is that the law's gain is the Music Hall's loss.

00:58:29That sort of remark doesn't assist you, Mr. Parfit.

00:58:32It isn't original, my lord.

00:58:33You may withdraw it if you wish.

00:58:35Is it that important?

00:58:36It would be wise.

00:58:39Very well, my lord.

00:58:42The law's gain is not the Music Hall's loss.

00:58:45Are you being deliberately contemptuous, Mr. Parfit?

00:58:48In defending myself against prosecuting counsels, lies and insults, my lord,

00:58:54I feel I've shown great restraint.

00:58:57I am referring to your most improper remark about the Music Hall.

00:59:00I give you one last chance, Mr. Parfit.

00:59:05I withdraw my improper remark about the Music Hall, my lord.

00:59:09I cannot imagine what effect you hope to create with the jury by such impertinence.

00:59:12I trust the jury will be aware of the provocation.

00:59:15That will do, Mr. Parfit.

00:59:19Continue, Mr. Golding.

00:59:20My lord.

00:59:22Mr. Parfit, you told the court that at a public meeting in Trafalgar Square in 1956,

00:59:26a police constable unwisely got in your way.

00:59:29A little misunderstanding that cost you 25 pounds.

00:59:32But tell us what really happened.

00:59:35Certainly.

00:59:36It was on November the 4th.

00:59:39Four days after Britain and France had attacked Egypt.

00:59:43There was a great deal of public feeling.

00:59:45Among left-wingers and dissidents, I believe.

00:59:47And even inside the Conservative Party, sir.

00:59:50But then, you may be too young to remember that.

00:59:52I was talking about the mobs attacking government property.

00:59:55Bad government produces mobs.

00:59:58Most people are so lethargic it takes blatant incompetence to get them out onto the streets.

01:00:03You among them, Mr. Parfit?

01:00:05Yes.

01:00:05Howling for the Prime Minister's blood.

01:00:07Oh, for heaven's sake.

01:00:08Oh, don't tell us you went to Trafalgar Square merely out of academic interest.

01:00:11I went because I was angry.

01:00:13Angry enough to damage government property and assault policemen?

01:00:16No, sir.

01:00:17Suez and the government were not in my mind that night.

01:00:20Not in your mind, really, Mr. Parfit.

01:00:22You must think we are very naive.

01:00:23Not naive, sir.

01:00:26Forgetful.

01:00:27On November the 4th, Russian tanks entered Budapest

01:00:31and murdered Hungarian civilians in the streets.

01:00:34Egypt was a blunder.

01:00:35Egypt was a blunder.

01:00:36Budapest was a tragedy.

01:00:39That's what was in my mind, sir.

01:00:41That's what made me angry.

01:01:01Tanks in Budapest, Mr. Parfit.

01:01:02Armed troops in the streets.

01:01:04Yes.

01:01:04And it made you very angry.

01:01:06Didn't it make you angry?

01:01:07Indeed.

01:01:08It's not something you forget.

01:01:10And I can imagine those new photographs burned themselves into your soul.

01:01:14Yes.

01:01:14So that 17 years later you can still recall, as we see, the passion you felt at the time.

01:01:20And that evening on December the 30th, you remembered it then.

01:01:23Am I right?

01:01:25What chemistry had taken place in your mind during those years, no one can say.

01:01:29But when you saw those two young soldiers sitting across the room, a spark leapt across those 17 years.

01:01:35You remembered the bodies in the streets, the burnt buildings.

01:01:38And if you needed reminding, there was Prague, 1968.

01:01:41The tanks again.

01:01:42The troops jostling the people.

01:01:43Yes.

01:01:44And Berlin and Athens and Santiago.

01:01:47And Belfast and Londonderry, yes?

01:01:49Yes.

01:01:52No.

01:01:53Not the same.

01:01:54We are not ruled by colonels yet.

01:01:57Yet?

01:01:57Nor shall be, I believe.

01:01:59Do you really believe that?

01:02:01I've just said so.

01:02:04I'd like to go back to these lectures you give.

01:02:07Now, we've heard about conservative ladies and Christians and army officers,

01:02:10but would you say these particular groups are representative of your audiences?

01:02:14I speak to a great many people.

01:02:16For instance, anarchist groups, yes?

01:02:18Arab nationalists?

01:02:18Yes.

01:02:19And Irish militants?

01:02:20Yes, once.

01:02:21Would you call yourself a pacifist, Mr. Parfit?

01:02:23No.

01:02:24The very opposite, in fact.

01:02:26You're an activist, aren't you, Mr. Parfit?

01:02:28Your background left you no other course.

01:02:30A failed lawyer, a failed soldier,

01:02:33a bitter disillusioned man who used the tragedies of his time as a sort of a mirror.

01:02:37And in that mirror you saw an avenging angel,

01:02:40avenging the wrongs of the world

01:02:42and avenging yourself against your old enemies at the same time.

01:02:45It may not even have occurred to you that in your distorted view of history

01:02:48would, in the end, put this young man behind bars for many years.

01:02:53Is that a question, my lord?

01:02:55If you care to answer, then it is.

01:02:57I don't think I'll waste the court's time.

01:03:01Mr. Golding?

01:03:02No more questions, my lord.

01:03:04Do you wish to re-examine, Mr. Lottery?

01:03:07Just briefly, my lord.

01:03:08Mr. Parfit, did you really confuse Londonderry with Budapest?

01:03:12I find that suggestion most offensive.

01:03:15And when you read of these desertions, what did you feel?

01:03:18Pleasure? Satisfaction?

01:03:20Shock.

01:03:21Sorrow.

01:03:23What else could one feel?

01:03:25Listening to Trooper Dugdale in court,

01:03:27I can only tell you that I'm very grateful my conscience is clear.

01:03:32And finally, Mr. Parfit, do you really hate the legal profession and the army?

01:03:37Do you imagine I'd give up valuable time to lecture people I hated?

01:03:43As for the law, I've no doubt at all Mr. Bumble was wrong.

01:03:50Thank you, Mr. Parfit.

01:03:52You may return to the dock, Mr. Parfit.

01:03:57My last witness is Mrs. Winifred Cummings.

01:04:03Winifred Cummings, please.

01:04:11Are you Mrs. Winifred Cummings?

01:04:13Yes.

01:04:14And do you live at 14 Hazel Grove, Fulchester?

01:04:16Yes, I live in.

01:04:18What is your job, Mrs. Cummings?

01:04:20I'm housekeeper to Mr. Parfit.

01:04:22How long have you been housekeeper to Mr. Parfit?

01:04:24Oh, about five years.

01:04:26Mr. Parfit's always lived in Fulchester,

01:04:28but after Mrs. Parfit passed away,

01:04:31he got rid of the other house and he bought this smaller one.

01:04:33I used to clean from...

01:04:34Does Mr. Parfit entertain much?

01:04:36Have people to stay?

01:04:38Oh no, very seldom.

01:04:39How often would you say?

01:04:41Well in all the years I've known him perhaps four or five times.

01:04:44People staying the night, just dropping in?

01:04:47Oh, they do stay the night sometimes,

01:04:49but he hates people dropping in.

01:04:51Mrs. Cummings, I want you to think back to December the 30th last year.

01:04:54Oh, that was the night when the two...

01:04:56Let me finish, please.

01:04:57Sorry, sir.

01:04:58That's all right.

01:04:59Did Mr. Parfit have visitors that night?

01:05:02Yes, two young soldiers.

01:05:04That's one of them there.

01:05:06I think.

01:05:08The other one...

01:05:09Were they friends of Mr. Parfit's?

01:05:10Oh no, he'd never seen them before.

01:05:13No.

01:05:14I think they'd written to him,

01:05:15but then lots of people write to him

01:05:17and he doesn't know most of them.

01:05:19Can you remember how Mr. Parfit reacted when these two turned up?

01:05:23Well, to tell you the truth, he wasn't too pleased.

01:05:25You see, he got a lot of work to do and it was all laid out on his desk.

01:05:28Was he expecting them?

01:05:30Oh no, they came right out of the blue,

01:05:32otherwise he wouldn't have had his work all laid out, would he?

01:05:34No.

01:05:35And you prepared a meal?

01:05:38Sardines on toast, I ask you.

01:05:41But they should have let us know.

01:05:42If you'd known they were coming, what difference would that have made?

01:05:46Well, I'd have got something in. A roast, perhaps.

01:05:48And then the sheets would have been aired.

01:05:50Oh, weren't the sheets aired?

01:05:51No, but when I knew they were staying the night,

01:05:53I took them off the bed and I brought them down

01:05:54and I put them in front of the kitchen fire.

01:05:56They weren't too bad.

01:05:57Can you tell us, did you go into the sitting room that evening?

01:06:01Oh.

01:06:02I went in a couple of times,

01:06:04once to ask about the beds and that

01:06:05and wants to take some coffee in.

01:06:07Were you in the room when Mr Parfit was talking

01:06:09or when these two visitors were talking?

01:06:13I suppose they must have been talking some of the time.

01:06:16Do you remember anything that was said?

01:06:20I remember Ireland was mentioned.

01:06:23That young gentleman said something about Ireland.

01:06:25Do you remember anything that Mr Parfit said?

01:06:29Yes.

01:06:31Salmon fishing.

01:06:32Mr Parfit said that salmon fishing was good in Ireland.

01:06:35Is that all?

01:06:38That's all that I can remember.

01:06:40Yes.

01:06:41Now just one last question, Mrs Cummings.

01:06:44You've known Mr Parfit for five years.

01:06:46What sort of man would you say he was?

01:06:48Mr Parfit.

01:06:50The best you could find, that's what he is.

01:06:53A good man.

01:06:55A gentleman.

01:06:57Thank you, Mrs Cummings.

01:07:01Mrs Cummings.

01:07:03You've been housekeeper to the defendant for five years.

01:07:06And would you say he was a tidy methodical man?

01:07:09Is his work always neatly filed away?

01:07:12Well, to tell the truth, not bad, but not brilliant.

01:07:16Men aren't all that tidy, I find.

01:07:19Sometimes he forgot where he put things.

01:07:20That's right.

01:07:21Well, at over 70, that's not surprising, is it?

01:07:23No, of course not.

01:07:24We all forget things,

01:07:25and I'm sure a busy man like the defendant

01:07:27has a lot of things on his mind.

01:07:28Yes.

01:07:29Which explains, very simply,

01:07:31why you were both caught out on the night of December the 30th.

01:07:34And Mr Parfit had forgotten the two soldiers were coming,

01:07:37and he hadn't told you, so you couldn't remind him.

01:07:41No, he didn't say anything to me.

01:07:43Well, he'd forgotten, hadn't he?

01:07:45Please don't think I'm criticising him, Mrs Cummings.

01:07:47We all forget things.

01:07:48And on this occasion, Mr Parfit had forgotten.

01:07:50Well, it wasn't quite like that.

01:07:51But you've just said he didn't tell you.

01:07:54But he didn't know they were coming.

01:07:56Oh, that's what you think, Mrs Cummings.

01:07:58Can you be sure, absolutely sure, that he had not forgotten?

01:08:07Well, yes, I think so.

01:08:10Now, the sheets for the beds, Mrs Cummings, in the spare room,

01:08:14I suppose they were kept in a chest of drawers?

01:08:16Apart from when they were on the bed, yes.

01:08:18On the bed?

01:08:19Yes.

01:08:20I always made the beds up in case anybody came,

01:08:22and then when I knew they were coming,

01:08:24I just slipped a bottle in.

01:08:25Oh, so it didn't matter who came or when,

01:08:28there was always a bed for them.

01:08:29That's right.

01:08:30Mrs Cummings, this is a rather important point,

01:08:33and I want to be quite sure we all understand what you're saying.

01:08:35Now, in the defendant's house at Hazel Grove,

01:08:38there is a spare bedroom, yes?

01:08:41Yes.

01:08:42And in it, there are two beds,

01:08:43which are always made up with bed clothes,

01:08:45in case somebody wants to stay the night.

01:08:47Yes, then I just put the bottles in.

01:08:49Quite.

01:08:50Now, you told my learned friend that Mr Parfit

01:08:53didn't like people just dropping in and staying the night.

01:08:55No, he didn't.

01:08:57Then why did you have the beds made up?

01:08:59Surely it would have been more sensible

01:09:00if they were going to be used so little

01:09:02just to strip them and only make them up when they were needed.

01:09:06I didn't keep them made up all the time.

01:09:09Why not?

01:09:11Well, like you said, there was no point.

01:09:14In fact, you only made them up

01:09:15when you had advance notice of someone coming,

01:09:18and then you just slipped the hot water bottle in.

01:09:20I'd put both bottles in that morning.

01:09:23Now, you've told my learned friend

01:09:24you stripped the sheets off the beds

01:09:26on the evening of December the 30th

01:09:28to air them in front of the fire,

01:09:30which means that the beds were made up.

01:09:32Yes.

01:09:33Which you only did when you were expecting someone.

01:09:36Well...

01:09:37That's what you said, Mrs Cummings.

01:09:40Did I?

01:09:40Yes.

01:09:41Which means that two people were expected

01:09:44on the night of December the 30th.

01:09:47Mrs Cummings,

01:09:48I must say I found all this talk about

01:09:51beds and sheets and hot water bottles

01:09:53all rather confusing.

01:09:55And with respect, I think my lonely friend has too.

01:09:58For one moment he's suggesting that

01:10:00Mr Parfit forgot to tell you

01:10:02that these two soldiers were coming

01:10:03and the next he's suggesting

01:10:04you knew all the time

01:10:05because you made the beds up.

01:10:07Now, for everyone's benefit, Mrs Cummings,

01:10:09can you clear this matter up for us?

01:10:12Were you expecting visitors

01:10:14on the night of December the 30th?

01:10:15No, sir.

01:10:16Do you think Mr Parfit was expecting visitors?

01:10:19No.

01:10:19Do the beds have anything to do with it?

01:10:21No, sir.

01:10:21Thank you, Mrs Cummings.

01:10:23You may stand down, Mrs Cummings.

01:10:31That concludes the case for the defence, my lord.

01:10:35Members of the jury.

01:10:36A man is guilty of an offence,

01:10:39contrary to the incitant Disaffection Act 1934,

01:10:43if he endeavours to seduce any member of Her Majesty's forces

01:10:49from his duty to Her Majesty.

01:10:52Now, it is no offence to discuss the situation in Northern Ireland.

01:10:57And it is no offence to say if the army ought not to be there.

01:11:02But it is an offence if a person advises a soldier to desert.

01:11:09Well, now, you may think that these two soldiers would have deserted in any event.

01:11:14But that is immaterial.

01:11:16The question is whether the accused encouraged them.

01:11:21And if he did, he is guilty.

01:11:26Now, you must remember that the prosecution must prove this beyond all reasonable doubt.

01:11:31If you have a reasonable doubt, you must find the accused not guilty.

01:11:37Will you now retire and consider your verdict?

01:11:41All stand.

01:11:58Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand.

01:12:01Just answer this question, yes or no.

01:12:04So, have you reached a verdict upon which you are all agreed?

01:12:07Yes.

01:12:08On the charge of incitement to disaffection,

01:12:10do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

01:12:13Not guilty.

01:12:14Mr. Parfit, you have been found not guilty by this court and are free to leave.

01:12:20Court will rise.

01:12:38Next week, you can join another jury when our cameras return to watch a leading case in the Crown Court.

01:12:46Good night.

01:13:08The only way I will require the verdict for the prosecution is a problem.

01:13:08telephone, but I will not be tested, but we will not be tested.

01:13:08The hearing also is for the truth.

01:13:08You can join us at the forefront, the audience.

Crown Court - A Message to Ireland (1973)

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