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Catching Up With The Royals - Season 1 Episode 4
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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up With The Royals, the show that never complains but always explains, with me, Richard
00:06Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:08Today, we're taking inspiration from our lovely viewers and listeners by using some of your most burning questions as our
00:14topics of the day.
00:16Why are we calling her Kate and not Princess Catherine?
00:20Jacuzze, you call her Kate.
00:22I overheard Prince William calling her Kate. Now he does call her Catherine.
00:27From the seemingly everlasting rift between two major figureheads in the royal family, Prince William and Prince Harry.
00:34Harry, I would say, had so much more freedom than his brother.
00:38Put it behind you, draw a line. Don't write another book if you could possibly help it.
00:43To the lesser known protocols members of the monarchy must have bye-bye in their day-to-day lives.
00:48They had to learn how to open doors and windows.
00:52She got out of a car and she shut the car door.
00:56She shut her own car door.
00:58Shut the front door.
00:59Plus, we'll be looking at how the lives of royals change when they're caught up in a scandal.
01:04To see the fall of the House of York like this in real time, it's pretty catastrophic, isn't it?
01:15Thank you so much for all of you, our lovely listeners and viewers, who sent us loads and loads of
01:20questions.
01:20And please do keep them coming. Richard and I love to read them.
01:24So, first up, thanks very much, Marinella.
01:27And it's to you, Richard.
01:28Richard, since you accidentally, oh, hang on a sec.
01:32Since you accidentally, Richard, walked into Prince William's box at Royal Ascot, I think you told us that a couple
01:40of episodes ago.
01:41It was an accident.
01:42Was it?
01:43Well, it's a try.
01:45Royal box, hello.
01:47Since you accidentally walked into Prince William's Royal Box, what is the most surprising or hidden protocol you've encountered that
01:54the public wouldn't expect?
01:56Oh, well, there's a good vicar one here, actually.
01:58And it's, if a member of the Royal Family or a representative of the Royal Family attends a funeral, that
02:05person takes precedence over the principal mourner.
02:07Really?
02:08Well, I would do like a, a few times we're doing a memorial service, somebody in the Royal Representative or
02:13a member of the Royal Family would come.
02:14So the grieving wife would come or the grieving husband, and you would escort them not to the normal place
02:21of priority, but to the opposite one at the front.
02:24And then you would go back and await the arrival of the Royal car and then greet the Royal and
02:30then escort them to the front.
02:32And then the funeral would get underway and reverse order, the Royal Rep would be first out before the wife,
02:40husband, family of the deceased.
02:42Often for funerals, important or otherwise, but for either, you know, funerals of friends of the Royals or former staff
02:50or et cetera, et cetera.
02:52The Royals often send an equerry or a private secretary, a member of their household.
02:57A Royal Rep.
02:58Does the Royal Rep still get the same preferential treatment as if the King or Prince William would?
03:04Yeah, it's as if you treat them as you would treat the Royal.
03:07And it's kind of odd, really, because sometimes you'll get, I don't know, the kind of deputy sheriff of Manchester
03:12turn up, who's being the Royal Rep that day,
03:15and have to sort of make more of a fuss of that person than you would of someone who's there
03:19to mourn their lost spouse, you know.
03:23But it's just protocol.
03:24And then we took a mistake once.
03:25We had the Duchess of Gloucester come to a funeral, and I was on duty that day.
03:31And I got in my head that it was Princess Michael of Kent who was coming.
03:35Easy mistake to make.
03:36And so when the Duchess of Gloucester turned up, I thought it was a lady in waiting, and I was
03:39polite but not bowie.
03:41And then I kind of was looking for the person to bow to, and actually it was her, but she
03:45was probably nice about it.
03:46But it seems weird, really, but there are people for whom the protocol is really important.
03:52And so if you're, you know, if you're a vicar of the Church of England, by law established, it's your
03:57obligation to observe that stuff.
03:58Well, I guess protocol is there.
04:00I mean, there's a lot of guff written about protocol.
04:02Sometimes I think it's slightly lazy shorthand, particularly on kind of clickbait website media.
04:09Protocol this, protocol that.
04:11And it's particularly used, in my opinion, it's a stick with which to beat female members of the royal family.
04:17You know, particularly younger women who marry in, you know, they're not proper royals because they weren't brought up as
04:23they married in.
04:24I remember, you know, when Catherine first was going out with William and then married, and then Meghan, you know,
04:31going out with Harry and then married to Harry.
04:33A lot of rubbish got written about protocol.
04:36For instance, it's protocol that there was all that, that row about Princess Charlotte and the bridesmaid's dress over Meghan
04:44and Harry's wedding.
04:45What actually was the, was the, was the problem was that Catherine felt the dress wasn't the right length.
04:51And she's very, very particular about her children's clothes.
04:54When the first iteration story came out, it was that Catherine wanted Charlotte to wear tights because that was protocol
05:02and Meghan didn't want the bridesmaids to wear tights.
05:05As far as I'm concerned, there is no protocol about whether children, bridesmaids have to wear tights or no tights
05:13at a royal wedding.
05:14But, and a lot of stuff, you know, is just, you know, Meghan was chastised for wearing black nail varnish.
05:21I mean, as if there is a list in a, in a royal protocol book somewhere of colours that you
05:26are allowed and you aren't allowed.
05:27It's just ridiculous.
05:28I remember when I was covering engagement with the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle as was, we were at the
05:33Royal Academy.
05:34And I think they'd just got married, she and Harry, and it was 2018 and she got out of a
05:41car and she shut the car door.
05:44She shut her own car door?
05:45Shut the front door, as the kids like to say.
05:49So she shut her own car door.
05:51Now I was filming this and I put it up on Twitter and I was just taking, I was taking
05:56a bit of a joke out of the whole sort of protocol warriors.
06:00And I said, oh, look, how refreshing, a princess who shuts her own car door.
06:04Now, this was a prime example of how kind of protocol could be weaponised because actually it's nothing to do
06:09with protocol, shutting a car door.
06:11It's all about security.
06:12The PPOs, the police protection officers are the ones who shut the door after the principal has left the vehicle.
06:18And the reason they shut the door is they do it once they are, once they are certain that the
06:24principal is safe and they don't need to get back into the vehicle and out with a quick exit.
06:30So, you know, it wasn't, it was neither here nor there that shut the door.
06:32There was something a bit, I remember somebody I know, her grandmother or great-grandmother was a member of a
06:38Russian aristocrat who had to flee St. Petersburg in the revolution in 1917 and came to England and ended up
06:44in England.
06:45And when they got there, they had to learn how to open doors and windows because they'd lived in a
06:52palace with so many footmen that they literally didn't know how to do it.
06:57So there's something, isn't there, about, you know, the royal, the principal being not the person who would do something
07:03so vulgar as operate machinery, even if it is a car door or a window latch.
07:07And do you think sometimes that the reporting of it can be a bit sexist?
07:11Why is it always the women who are chastised with not knowing or not doing it properly?
07:15You never see a critique of William not tying his own tie.
07:19Oh, it's delightfully informal, we would say then, wouldn't we?
07:22But if, who does she think she is?
07:25Who does she think she is shutting her own car door?
07:27There is this weird kind of, almost sort of, kind of holiness thing, isn't there, about the, about, there's some
07:32people want it to be exalted and different from the rest of us and, and kind of wreathed in a
07:38special majestic glow.
07:40Some people want that.
07:41And then some people want them shutting their own car doors.
07:44You all shut, yes.
07:45There are some actual examples of British coal.
07:48For instance, members of the royal family and indeed journalists and indeed members of staff always pack black clothes and
07:55a black tie, just in case, just in case there's a death when you're abroad.
07:59Oh, because the Queen got caught with that one.
08:00She went, sorry, Queen Elizabeth II got caught with that one when her father died.
08:03When she was in Kenya.
08:04Yeah.
08:04Yeah.
08:04Oh, I've got a good one.
08:06Go on.
08:06But when Diana Prince of Wales was pregnant with William, if she went riding or home or visited anywhere, the
08:13consultant gynaecologist in the local hospital had to be on call.
08:17Just in case.
08:18Just in case.
08:19Yeah.
08:19Well, of course, there used to be the protocol that when a royal baby was born, the home secretary had
08:23to be there.
08:24I don't want that.
08:25I don't want Yvette Cooper looking at my emerging heir.
08:32Do you know what I mean?
08:33I know.
08:33Well, it was obviously there was a good reason for that to prove that the new baby, new royal was
08:38obviously the sons and daughters of monarchs.
08:41Could they swell a brotherly?
08:43Oh, I mean, don't even, don't even.
08:45Thankfully, that protocol has now gone.
08:49Again, this is not protocol.
08:50This is more of a sensible thing.
08:53Royals tend not to eat shellfish.
08:54Which I remember when, actually, I remember when I was on tour with William and Kate in India, Princess Catherine
09:00to me, William and Princess Catherine.
09:02We did a story, one of us, the Rat Pack did a story that they'd gone vegetarian because they didn't
09:08want to get, you know, deli belly while they're in India.
09:10And they, obviously, the press team were really, really worried that that would offend the Indian or the Indian government,
09:16that they'd gone vegetarian.
09:17I mean, I personally didn't.
09:19I thought that was just quite sensible.
09:21More protocol later.
09:22And after the break, we will be doing a deep dive into Harry and William.
09:27What's the latest on the royal rift?
09:31The brother who stayed and the brother who strayed.
09:34But before that, a question.
09:37Who was the tallest and who was the shortest British royal?
09:41Back after this.
09:47Welcome back to the podcast that never complains, but always explains.
09:52And don't forget, you can catch up with Catching Up With The Royals every Thursday on Apple, on Spotify, wherever
09:58you get your podcasts.
09:59You can watch us, if you so choose, on YouTube.
10:02And we're on five on Saturdays.
10:05Now, before the break, Richard.
10:06Yes.
10:07We were talking about heights.
10:09Shortest and tallest royals, what do you reckon?
10:10I think the shortest one was Queen Victoria, because as I recall, she wasn't even five feet in her stockinged
10:16royal feet.
10:18All the best people come in little packages.
10:21But she was tiny, I think.
10:23She was.
10:23You're absolutely right.
10:24So you're spot on.
10:25She was the shortest monarch at four foot ten.
10:28Blimey.
10:28Who do you think the tallest?
10:30Well, I would think it would be maybe George VI.
10:33It would be a recent one.
10:34You'd think of whose people tend to be taller now than in the past.
10:36But I don't know.
10:37King Edward IV.
10:39Fourth?
10:39Yeah, King Edward IV.
10:40I'm surprised, too.
10:41Apparently, he was the tallest at six foot four and a half inches.
10:45Very important, that half inch.
10:47But quite.
10:47But what a giant.
10:48I know.
10:49How do they know?
10:50Do they measure?
10:50I don't know.
10:51I think you could measure the thigh.
10:52I don't know.
10:52How would you know that he was that tall?
10:53I mean, presumably, the royal physician has to keep.
10:55Well, maybe there's a kind of doorway at Westminster Abbey with a notch in Edwardus IV.
11:01A little black marker pen.
11:03Only for the monarchs, though.
11:05If you despair.
11:06That would be good if that was.
11:07That would be very good.
11:09That would be very good.
11:10Edward IV.
11:10Edward IV.
11:11Yeah.
11:11There you go.
11:12I mean, I didn't know that either.
11:13I've got another question for you.
11:14This comes from George.
11:15Hi, George.
11:16Hi, George.
11:17Your recent discussion about the royal reset for the Prince and Princess of Wales discussed
11:21how William has handled the brutal challenges of the past few years.
11:25So much of the conversation around William and Harry is saturated with the narrative from
11:30spare, but there is a massive audience that wants to understand William's side of the
11:34story, give the public what they really want, the story of the brother who stayed.
11:38I love that, George.
11:40And I might have to nick that for one of my columns, the brother who stayed.
11:44Right.
11:44All joking aside.
11:46I mean, this is a really painful royal rift.
11:50And I guess the latest is that there's absolute no speaks.
11:55Between the brothers, which I find very sad.
11:58It seems very sad to me.
11:59I mean, not even birthday cards or are they utterly estranged?
12:04I have been told that I don't think it's happening anymore, but I have been told that.
12:09So I think the last time they spoke, we saw, we watched.
12:12It was September 2022.
12:16It was William's idea to invite Harry and Meghan to walk about outside Windsor Castle after the late
12:24Queen died because, of course, they were in the UK because Harry had the Well Child Awards
12:29and some Invictus Game stuff that was happening in Germany.
12:31So it was William's idea to reach out.
12:35He knew it would play well for the cameras and also was a mark of respect to his granny.
12:41But after that, that September 22 was obviously before Harry's autobiography, Spare, came out.
12:49And that really, as I've been told, was the absolute nail in the coffin, because before
12:54then there'd been Oprah.
12:57So September 22, the death of the Queen, Harry and Meghan had done that interview with Oprah,
13:02but hadn't yet released their Netflix series.
13:06I think six part Harry and Meghan.
13:08And then quite soon after was Harry's autobiography, Spare.
13:11And because of those two things, we know a lot of, as George has said, we know a lot of
13:16Harry's
13:16side of the story, but William has remained resolutely silent.
13:21And will have to if he's going to do what he's designed for.
13:26I mean, this is an impossible relationship.
13:27Sibling relationships are always, trust me, my brother's birthday today, and I'm fortunate
13:31to have a very good relationship with him, but there's always dynamics in sibling relationships
13:36that are difficult.
13:37But, I mean, you grow up together, you go through thick and thin, you experience the tragic
13:41death of your mother, and then all of a sudden the realisation that one of you is going to
13:45be a world statesman, and the other one is going to kind of, I don't know, maybe fly some
13:51helicopters a bit.
13:52It must be very tough.
13:54And I feel sympathy for both of them, really.
13:58I'm told that Harry has tried to contact his brother, and texted him, and there's just
14:05been no reply, no, and Catherine's not in contact with Harry or Meghan either.
14:11I think initially there were presents sent to children on both sides.
14:16Genuinely, I'm not sure if even that's happening anymore.
14:20I think because of, as William said himself, it was such a brutal year, 2023.
14:28The way that he dealt with both his father and his wife's very serious illness was that
14:33he just didn't have the mental headspace to deal with his brother either.
14:36So he just sort of cut it, cut it and him off.
14:41You know, it's funny you should say about the helicopters, Richard, it reminds me of
14:44a story that a very senior courtier once told me.
14:48They said, if you really want to know, if you really want to get to the heart of William
14:51and Harry, their personalities and their relationship, just look at the helicopters they pilot.
14:57Forgive me if I get this slightly wrong, but Harry, co-pilot, gunner on the Apache, you're
15:03going hard, you're going strong, you're going low.
15:08Harry.
15:09Yeah.
15:09Very emotive, everything out there, headstrong, you go in, you save whomever, or you kill, as
15:16Harry said in spare, you kill whomever, you get the hell out.
15:21William, big, lumbering, seeking, search and rescue helicopter, you're there for a mission,
15:27you're there to save lives, you're strategic, the weather's probably quite bad, you've got
15:31to keep an eye on the waves, on the weather, but ultimately you've got to be, where's your
15:36strategy, where's your operation, you're in there, you're there, you've got to save the
15:42person and yourself.
15:43You know what I'm dreading now?
15:44Well, Sarah Ferguson's going to see a kind of book in this, isn't she, about contrasting
15:48the Royal Prince helicopters, Harry the Apache, William the Seeking.
15:55But it goes to your point about, well, didn't it always have to be like that?
15:59William has to be strategic and thoughtful, and how's this going to work, not just in
16:05terms of like me, but in terms of the institution, because I am the guardian of that institution.
16:09Harry, I would say, had so much more freedom than his brother.
16:13However, he could have gone and done anything and everything, and now he's just selling
16:17his wife's chocolate on Instagram.
16:19I know.
16:19And the other thing, of course, the danger in this is that as Harry and Meghan try to
16:23maintain the life to which they've grown accustomed, they're going to have to sort
16:27of monetise themselves, and what have they got to monetise?
16:30Well, it is exactly that kind of material, it's the sort of story, it's that personal
16:34stuff, it's the untold story that they're going to tell, and that makes it even more
16:38difficult to imagine a reconciliation.
16:40And I think what William finds so hard and unforgivable, if we're being honest about
16:49it, is the fact that Harry has monetised the family's pain and intimate secrets.
16:57Now, on the one hand, Harry would say, I'm just telling my truth, I could have written
17:01a lot worse, and he did say that.
17:02I could have written two more books.
17:03But for William, you know, they both had to grow up, those two boys, and see people
17:09selling stories on their mum and their dad.
17:11But I also, I mean, from Harry's point of view, it must be difficult all of a sudden
17:15to be criticised for trying to kind of make your living to cover your huge expenses by
17:22someone who's just inherited all the revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall, right?
17:27Exactly.
17:28And you are always, inevitably, unless you are an heir or an heir to an heir, you are
17:33always dependent, aren't you, on the kind of largest, you're always, in a way, standing
17:38around the table with your hand out.
17:39And that's, for some people, that would be very humiliating, I think.
17:42And I don't think Henry, Harry, don't think Henry, Harry, Prince Henry ever wanted to do
17:47that.
17:47But what I worry about slightly, Richard, is the future, because I think William is very
17:54strategic.
17:55I think he can be utterly ruthless when needed, which I...
17:58Job requirement.
17:59Which is a job requirement, I think, of the monarch.
18:02We've got King William V and Queen Catherine.
18:05You've got Harry and Meghan set up in a rival court in the US.
18:10But what happens if Harry is given his security back here in the UK?
18:14So he comes more often.
18:16And I'm assuming, next year, Invictus Games in Birmingham, I'm assuming that William won't
18:22go.
18:22I'm assuming that William won't be invited.
18:24But then what happens when he's King and Harry's kind of becoming like a rival, setting
18:28up his own rival court here in the UK?
18:30I can't see, from an institutional point of view, how William can keep up this no-speaks
18:38with his brother.
18:39No, seriously.
18:39I think it could harm the institution.
18:41What do you think?
18:41Well, I don't know.
18:42I think there's a lot to be said.
18:43It's very interesting.
18:44I notice it in the way when people fall out.
18:46You see the same thing in what's been happening with the Beckhams lately, is that when you
18:49hear the aggrieved party talk, you know that they are filtering that through months, if
18:54not years, of expensive therapy.
18:56My view, perhaps, now is that maybe putting up and shutting up is better if you're going
19:02to preserve some possibility in the future of peaceful coexistence.
19:05Because you can't just kind of constantly reproach people and accuse people and seek that.
19:12I spoke to people close to Harry, and I mean, you know, we only have to listen to what Harry
19:15said himself about his brother, that he's his beloved brother, but also his arch nemesis.
19:20I mean, people close to Harry are vitriolic about William, and even Catherine.
19:25Put it behind you.
19:27Draw a line.
19:29Don't write another book if you can possibly help it.
19:31Freud talked about, I think, all the narcissism of small difference, that the most intense
19:35rivalries are between people, not because they are not alike, but because they are alike.
19:40They have that very, very singular experience of having grown up royal princes.
19:45And that's what makes the relationship difficult.
19:47In fact, is they're so close rather than distant.
19:49Well, there's a vignette of that, a prime example, from Spare, where Harry talks about
19:56William getting more sausages.
19:57He has remembered this detail from childhood, that William used to get more sausages than
20:03him.
20:03I mean, who knows whether it's true or not.
20:05Why would you give more sausages to William?
20:07Because he was the heir.
20:08So he gets more sausages.
20:09So he gets more sausages.
20:10So it's like princely sausage that...
20:12Princely...
20:13This is going to turn into another podcast, isn't it?
20:15Yeah, I know.
20:15I mean, but the fact that he has remembered that 35 years on...
20:20I can remember.
20:20I haven't been in a pop band where you stand next to someone who gets all the glory.
20:24Yeah.
20:25It's not an easy place to stand.
20:27If you've got your wits about it, if you're smart, and if you take a long view, then fine,
20:31you'd just be grateful for the opportunity.
20:33But sometimes it's very difficult to stand in someone else's bright light and not feel burnt
20:38by it.
20:38Not feel that it takes something from you.
20:41Were you jealous?
20:42Oh, God, yes.
20:43Although you can't say so, can you?
20:45You could ever admit...
20:46But you can now.
20:47Of course you can now, yeah.
20:48But at the time, no, you have to...
20:50It's your truth.
20:50...face on and everything's more lovely, da, da, da.
20:53But yeah, no, I did.
20:53Because it felt like it was light and air that could have been mine that's being sucked
20:56up by somebody else.
20:58Not that that was the intention of the other person, but it just happened that way.
21:02No one's fault.
21:03It's just built in.
21:04And if you are the heir and if you are the spare, there's nothing you can do about that
21:07except try to find a way of living with it.
21:10Yeah.
21:10How would you cope?
21:12Well, I'm really lucky.
21:13I'm really close.
21:14I've got one sibling.
21:14I'm really close.
21:15We're very different women.
21:18But we were brought up to be totally equal.
21:22And I wonder...
21:23I mean, Diana famously wanted to bring her boys up as totally equal.
21:27Of course, that was never...
21:28That was never going to be their destiny.
21:30There comes a moment where somebody says, oh, by the way, you, you're going to be the king
21:34and you're...
21:36You're not?
21:36You're not.
21:37Well, you're not.
21:37Yeah.
21:38Well, you might be if something happened to that one.
21:40Well, that doesn't exactly give a sort of a...
21:44It doesn't really help so much, does it, in some ways?
21:46I don't know.
21:47It must be...
21:47Very tough.
21:48Very tough.
21:49I think it's heartbreaking because I just think, you know, they shared that extraordinary
21:52experience, terrible experience of losing their mother.
21:56And they are estranged from each other.
21:58And that makes them estranged from their wider family in some ways.
22:03And you just think it must be...
22:05You pay such a heavy price for that stuff.
22:07You do.
22:07You really do.
22:08And the other thing, the other part to this, I think, is the wives.
22:12I mean, I remember when the whole thing in the press kind of kicked off about, oh, the
22:17women hate each other.
22:18It wasn't.
22:18It was the boys who'd fallen out first and the wives.
22:21But I was told that William never really took to Meghan.
22:27Meghan did not take to William.
22:30And Catherine sort of fell in behind her husband, as you would.
22:34But do you remember when William and Catherine got together and the whole sort of anecdotal
22:39story was that Harry was like a third part of a...
22:42They were a three-legged stool and Harry was the third leg.
22:45I don't know.
22:46I think that was...
22:46And I thought, does any marriage work that way?
22:48It was a bit sort of press guff, wasn't it?
22:52You know, like...
22:53Or was it somewhere in that an effort to make Harry still feel that he had status and
22:57place?
22:58And relevance.
22:58Yeah.
22:59Well, then I think the other problem is that, of course, William was very upset by what
23:04Harry said in, I think it was the Netflix, Harry and Meghan, where he said that some
23:09people marry, you know, that royal men...
23:11I know, Rich is pulling a face here, by the way, if you're listening on the podcast, he's
23:14pulling a...
23:15Because he knows what I'm about to say.
23:16Royal men only marry women who are kind of suitable for the part.
23:21The implication being that William only married Catherine because she was some dumb broad who
23:26would sort of put up, shut up and...
23:28Lie back and think of England.
23:29Lie back.
23:29Yeah, exactly.
23:30Do bring the heirs.
23:31And would be a suitable sort of consul, which was hugely, hugely rude.
23:38Yeah.
23:39And actually did a huge disservice to a woman who has a Masters of Art in Art History from
23:47the University of St. Andrews, got a number of A's in her A-levels, has got a cracking
23:51sense of humour and is very, very sharp.
23:54And is making a very good job of a very tough gig.
23:57Absolutely.
23:57Yeah.
23:58Absolutely.
23:58She's the saviour of the modern royal family, surely.
24:01After the break, we'll be returning to the difficult question of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor
24:06and Sarah Ferguson for the latest on that.
24:08But we have a question for you to consider, first of all.
24:11Prince Harry holds a Guinness World Record.
24:15What is it?
24:17Answer coming up.
24:18Do you know what it is?
24:19No, I don't.
24:25Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
24:27And you can keep up with us in all sorts of ways.
24:29You can, wherever you get your pods, YouTube, whatever it is, that's on a Thursday.
24:34And you can watch us on five on a Saturday.
24:37Well, just connect with us however you want.
24:39We left you with a question.
24:40The question was, Prince Harry is the holder of a Guinness World Record.
24:44But for what?
24:45Do you know?
24:45I didn't, actually.
24:47Tell me.
24:47He holds the Guinness World Record for running five kilometres in full military uniform.
24:52Oh, wow.
24:52That's going to be quite heavy.
24:54I've seen that.
24:54That's quite a good record, isn't it?
24:55Yeah.
24:56I've seen him run, actually.
24:58He raced William and Kate on a running track in East London.
25:03It was around the time, it must have been 2012, around the time of the Olympics.
25:05He was fast.
25:06He beat both of them.
25:07He is fast, isn't he?
25:08Oh, he's fast.
25:09He's fast.
25:10Please do email in to royals at spirit-studios.com.
25:15And maybe you too could have your question read out.
25:19Should we do another one?
25:20Yes, please.
25:20So, Oliver says, it's hard to keep up with all the Andrew Royal drama over the past few months.
25:26Tell me about it.
25:27Tell me about it.
25:28But I want to know what's going on behind the scenes.
25:30Emily, you were in the UAE at the same time as Princess Eugenie.
25:34What are her and Beatrice saying about all the things their dad is accused of?
25:38And how do the lives of the royals change when a scandal unfolds?
25:42Oliver, thanks for asking.
25:44I think this is probably all quite unfair on Beatrice and Eugenie.
25:48In private, apparently they have been, well, choose your adjective, shocked, appalled, ghast, broken, devastated.
25:55I mean, you know, they were very, very close to their parents.
25:58To see the fall of the House of York like this in real time, it's pretty catastrophic, isn't it?
26:05Oh, I don't know.
26:06I mean, again, family relationships are difficult.
26:08But when all of a sudden these revelations appear,
26:10what it must be like to read the accounts of what your father is alleged to have done
26:14and your mother is doing, we should say, of course,
26:16both Sarah Fergus and Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor deny these allegations.
26:20It must be excoriating.
26:22And then to have to face them and then imagine what those conversations are like.
26:26Or maybe you just feel you have to kind of support them in their determination to plead innocence.
26:32I don't know.
26:32It must be very difficult.
26:34Well, I think publicly they are keeping a little bit of distance.
26:40Obviously, Beatrice was photographed with her father, horse riding at Windsor.
26:45This was before the latest tranche of files.
26:51Three and a half million were released from America's Department of Justice.
26:55Beatrice lives in the Cotswolds and usually spends most of her time in Portugal
26:59where her husband Jack works and they've got two young sons.
27:03As I understand it, neither woman wants to put up their mum.
27:10Sarah, because of the unwanted media attention.
27:13And I think also, I think it's very difficult because I think that they have to,
27:17they have to keep their distance publicly, despite privately.
27:21And I've been told that they are still supporting their parents privately.
27:26They are still talking to their mother and father.
27:29But, I mean, apparently Beatrice wasn't eating at one point.
27:32I mean, you would, you know, things, it has affected both of them.
27:37Of course it has.
27:37I remember the British Museum had this, their first kind of gala.
27:43It was like an echo of the Met Gala in New York at the British Museum.
27:46And Beatrice and Eugenie were on the guest list, but then didn't appear.
27:51This was, I think, at the end of last year.
27:55Other charity fundraisers, you know, the circuit, Richard.
27:59The circuit of which I know you are part.
28:01People have stopped inviting them and don't...
28:04Toxic.
28:04Exactly.
28:05Their brand is toxic.
28:06Well, the other thing I wanted to ask you is,
28:08if you say you've just been in the UAE with Princess Eugenie,
28:11what's the stop?
28:12Somebody in the press corps shouting out,
28:14Princess Eugenie is your dad.
28:17What do you have to say about your parents?
28:19Does it happen?
28:20No.
28:21Well, she's not a working royal.
28:22So there aren't engagements that we go to or cover.
28:28She is a private.
28:29So she has her title still.
28:30She and Beatrice still have their titles as princess.
28:32But they are private individuals.
28:35They work.
28:38Eugenie was in Qatar.
28:40Sorry.
28:40Eugenie was in Qatar in the capital of Doha at an art fair,
28:44the Basel Art Fair in her...
28:46It's her job, right?
28:46It's her job.
28:47Yeah.
28:47She's a director at House and Worth Art Gallery.
28:50But her job, Richard, is to use her network of rich and powerful people
28:57to bring them to the art gallery.
28:59Reputation is all important.
29:02And your reputation is why she's frankly...
29:07And her title is frankly why she's been employed.
29:09I don't want to do Eugenie Downe.
29:11She's lovely.
29:12She's a really lovely girl.
29:13And she's very knowledgeable.
29:14And good at her job, though.
29:15Yeah, very good at her job.
29:16And from the people that I know in the art world,
29:18they really rate her.
29:19So it's not just because that she's a royal princess.
29:23But the House of York is now toxic.
29:28And Beatrice, Beatrice's own company, she runs her own company.
29:31She is B-Y.
29:34Beatrice York.
29:35That's the name of her company.
29:38So...
29:39And again, it's about reputation.
29:41It's about advice that she's giving people.
29:42So if you're buying into her company, you're buying into her.
29:46So I think it's very, very problematic for them.
29:48It's that awful thought of going out and facing the world.
29:51And, you know, there's one question in everyone's mind.
29:53And you're just constantly having to deal with the reality of that
29:56and trying to live some sort...
29:57You know, then also, of course, they have their own families.
29:59They have their own children.
30:00They have all that to take care of.
30:01But how do you explain that Grandpa is on the front of the papers again?
30:05I don't know.
30:06Stuff must be very difficult.
30:07Well, and actually, I just think the stuff from their mum,
30:10I mean, it's just so grubby.
30:12All those emails for money.
30:13And then effectively saying to Jeffrey Epstein, well, in return,
30:17he's like, well, I want the girls, as in her daughters,
30:20I want the girls to act as unofficial tour guides
30:23for private tours of Buckingham Palace.
30:24Renting out the children.
30:26Renting out the children, absolutely.
30:27You know, they were Epstein and Harvey Weinstein,
30:31apex predator, were invited to Beatrice's 18th birthday party.
30:35Think of all the lovely young 18-year-olds at that birthday party
30:38and they invited those two men.
30:40What were Andrew and Sarah doing?
30:41And then also, quite apart from all that,
30:43but then the obligations that the children might feel for their parents.
30:46Because, I mean, how's their mother going to live?
30:49Where's she going to live?
30:49What's she going to live on?
30:51And all that stuff is unanswered, isn't it?
30:53Yeah, well, I mean, she's not a member of the royal family
30:56and so there's no obligation for the king to make any provision for her.
31:02When there was in the kind of negotiation process last autumn,
31:06she wanted a house for herself
31:09and Andrew asked for a house for her as well in the Windsor area.
31:12I mean, if I were the king,
31:15and Sarah wants to stay in the Windsor area,
31:18she has a lot of friends there.
31:20In fact, I met her florist once in Windsor.
31:24I mean, this is a sign of why...
31:25Her florist driving a Rolls Royce.
31:27Her florist was driving a Rolls Royce.
31:29No, her florist said that she was one of the best customers
31:30because literally she'd spend money like it was running out of fashion
31:33and on flowers.
31:35My God, that's probably Elton John's florist
31:37who told you that as well if it's Windsor, isn't it?
31:39Exactly, it's Elton John's florist as well.
31:40And so we know how much Elton...
31:41She's the best customer.
31:42She's the best customer.
31:44When, you know, you've got Elton who's sort of, you know,
31:47dripping in flowers.
31:49So she spends money like there's no tomorrow.
31:53She is very generous.
31:54There are always stories of people, you know,
31:56being sent flowers or presents or cards
31:57or letters for birthdays or deaths or, you know, great.
32:01She's very, very solicitous like that, Fergie.
32:04But also, you know, you've got to rein it in, literally.
32:08Well, I suppose, you know, you can overspend.
32:11And as we know that she's managed to get other people
32:12to pay her debts,
32:13but that's probably not going to be the case going forward, I think.
32:16I mean, she is the comeback queen, Fergie,
32:18but I think this is one scandal from which there is no comeback
32:21because I cannot see for her a return to public life.
32:25Her books have been pulped.
32:26Her charities have all dropped her.
32:29Nobody is going to want to employ her as the face of their brand,
32:32which traditionally she has been able to make money from.
32:34So how is she going to pay the gas bill?
32:36How is she going to...
32:37I don't know.
32:38I don't know.
32:39She had that house in London that she sold,
32:41but she sold it for a similar amount of money that she bought it for.
32:45So, you know, I guess they've always not been very good,
32:49from my mind, with money.
32:51I mean, that Swiss chalet and Verbiere that they bought
32:54and heavily mortgaged and then sold for a, you know,
32:57couldn't actually sell it.
32:59Just always living beyond their means.
33:01But I, yeah, feel very sorry for Beatrice and Eugenie.
33:06Sarah Ferguson and Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, of course,
33:10deny any wrongdoing.
33:12But we're going to return to the subject of the Duchess of York
33:17when we look up the lady.
33:19But that is after the break.
33:21We've got a question.
33:22And don't forget, you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook,
33:27Catching Up With The Royals,
33:29and please do subscribe,
33:30Catching Up With The Royals on YouTube.
33:34Question for you, Richard.
33:35Yes.
33:36We have a question.
33:37Prince William broke tradition the day that he was born doing what?
33:43Handstands.
33:44No, I don't know.
33:44Cartwheels.
33:45Who knows?
33:46Back after this.
33:53So, before the break, we asked you,
33:55what tradition did Prince William break on the very day that he was born?
34:00Richard.
34:02Circumcision.
34:05You mean he was circumcised or he wasn't circumcised?
34:08You know, one of the two.
34:10The tradition that Prince William broke,
34:13he was the first future monarch to be born in a...
34:17Hospital.
34:18Well done.
34:19Normally born at home.
34:20Exactly.
34:22The Lindo Wing,
34:23St Mary's Hospital in London,
34:25central London.
34:26All other former monarchs have been born at home,
34:28either in Clarence House or Buckingham Palace.
34:30Imagine being a midwife,
34:32called to Buckingham Palace to see the new,
34:35the likely future king or queen into the world.
34:38I know.
34:39History.
34:40It's a good deal, isn't it?
34:40We've got another question.
34:41Time for a very quick question.
34:43A little bit of a reprimand, I think, actually.
34:46I know.
34:46I know.
34:47What have you done now?
34:47So, Stella, well, I'm always happy to be chastised, Richard.
34:50You know me.
34:51Stella says,
34:53Emily, Richard,
34:53when you're talking about Charles and Camilla,
34:55why do you always say the king and queen?
34:58Camilla is not, in caps, the queen.
35:01She does not govern.
35:02She just happens to be married to the king.
35:04She is queen consort or just queen Camilla.
35:06And the late queen stated that that was her wish.
35:08Why are you not using her proper title?
35:11Well, I mean, I would say,
35:13of course, I think technically you're absolutely right.
35:15And there is a distinction between a queen renient and a queen consort, of course.
35:18But no one actually does that.
35:20When people talk about the king and the queen,
35:22I think most people would understand that to be Camilla.
35:24So it might be one of those kind of forms of shorthand
35:27that's not entirely in keeping with the strictest of protocols.
35:30But I think most people would give it a pass.
35:33Well, actually, Stella, it is protocol, the king and queen.
35:36That's it.
35:37That's their title.
35:38That's what Buckingham Palace call them.
35:39I get all royal engagements.
35:42I get advance notice.
35:44I get what's called op notes, operational notes.
35:46And whenever it says, da, da, da, da, da, walk about in Clitheroe,
35:50visit to Bradford, it says the king and queen will be visiting Clitheroe.
35:54The king and queen will be visiting Wiltshire.
35:57The king and queen.
35:58So that is the protocol.
36:00And that's what they're called.
36:01I think it's slightly complicated by the fact that, of course,
36:03when we talk about the queen, who do we think of?
36:06The queen.
36:07The queen.
36:08The queen, exactly.
36:09Her late majesty, to give her proper title,
36:11her late majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.
36:13Yeah.
36:14I mean, we got used to the queen mother, didn't we?
36:16We did.
36:16So there were two queens knocking around then.
36:18And that was not her proper title, by the way.
36:20No, they had to make it up, really.
36:21Well, no.
36:22She was never...
36:23She was Queen Elizabeth.
36:24She was Queen Elizabeth, the queen mother.
36:27Queen Elizabeth.
36:27We didn't even say that, didn't we?
36:29No, I know.
36:29And we've been told off again, Richard.
36:31Why are we calling her Kate and not Princess Catherine?
36:36Jacuzze.
36:36You call her Kate.
36:37I do call her Kate.
36:39I'm sorry if people don't like that.
36:40But what I will say is in 2011, just before they got married, I was in Belfast and I overheard
36:46Prince William calling her Kate.
36:49Now he does call her Catherine, but she was Kate at university.
36:53Okay.
36:53So Kate is kosher.
36:55Kate is kosher.
36:56Catherine's also kosher.
36:57Yes.
36:57And Princess Catherine is optimal.
36:59Super kosher.
37:00Got it.
37:01So I've seen a trailer for The Lady.
37:03And as if you didn't think there'd been enough drama generated from the Yorks, the former Yorks.
37:09What's it all about?
37:10Well, it is about the Duchess of York, as she was, Sarah Ferguson's dresser called Jane Andrews.
37:18No relation to me, I hesitate to add.
37:22Thank you for clearing that up.
37:23I mean, it is one of those stories which is facts more crazy than the fiction.
37:30Jane Andrews was the Duchess of York's dresser.
37:33It was almost a kind of, I hate sort of rags to riches.
37:36It's such a lazy cliche, but some, you know.
37:39But let's do it anyway.
37:40But let's do it anyway.
37:41Let's do it anyway.
37:41Rags to riches till.
37:44She saw an advert for a lady's maid in the back of The Lady magazine.
37:51Hang on.
37:51She was in Grimsby and reading The Lady.
37:54Yeah, I know.
37:55I mean, The Lady now shut, I think, as a magazine, sadly.
37:59Where am I to find a housekeeper now?
38:00I know.
38:01So, Sarah advertised for a lady's maid.
38:04And Jane answers the advert, goes down to Buckingham Palace, clinches the job.
38:11The two become very close.
38:13But I think that Jane had a bit of a trouble background.
38:19Well, anything the lady asks them to do.
38:20Does it basically sort their clothes out?
38:22Sort their clothes out.
38:23Get them up in the morning.
38:24Get them up in the morning.
38:24Bring in their tray.
38:25Bring in their tray.
38:26Well, actually, that would be a member of the housekeeping staff that would do that.
38:32So, it's like a female valet.
38:34Well, it's like a best mate.
38:35Yeah, it's a female valet.
38:36It's a female valet.
38:37It's a best mate, basically.
38:38It's a best mate that you've paid for.
38:41But they would be there with your first thing and there with your last thing?
38:43Yes, absolutely.
38:45It's like, I think now they're called executive assistants.
38:48But with underwear issues.
38:50We're doing more underwear than you do.
38:51But they can help you with your underwear.
38:53Okay.
38:53They can help you with your nail varnish.
38:56They can get you the latest brand of makeup.
38:58And of course, get that peculiar intimacy that comes with being with somebody at the end of
39:02the day and at the beginning of the day.
39:03So, you get to know each other really well.
39:05Absolutely.
39:05You become like they're kind of confidant.
39:07And I think, look, we know that I'm told that Sarah Ferguson was and still is very emotional,
39:16heart on the sleeve kind of gal.
39:17And she and Jane were very close.
39:21But I think Jane had quite a troubled background.
39:23And she had a number of troubled, I think, relationships with men.
39:27And then ended up being tried for murder in 2001 for killing her then partner.
39:34And she was sentenced to a life sentence.
39:37She wasn't still in, she wasn't then part of the royal household or anything, was she?
39:41No.
39:41This was after that.
39:42This was after.
39:43But I think, I seem to remember Fergie keeping in touch with her.
39:46I don't know whether she still is.
39:48But...
39:48I just thought in a role like that, in a job like that, you're in, you're out, aren't you?
39:52Yeah.
39:52I think also once the police get involved.
39:56Oh, what an awful story.
39:57So, this woman was convicted?
40:01Yeah.
40:02Apparently, well, her defence was that it was an abusive relationship and she was under sort
40:06of coercive control.
40:07So, they were mitigating factors as far as she was concerned.
40:11Yeah, she was, in 2001, she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.
40:14And the psychiatrist told ITV that Jane had been subject to coercive control in her relationship.
40:19But she killed Thomas Cressman after an argument with a cricket bat and stabbed him in the chest.
40:25Oh, my goodness.
40:26I know.
40:26So, from rags to riches to Risley.
40:30HMP.
40:30Yeah, cool.
40:31HMP, Essex, wherever she was held.
40:33And now she's out.
40:34And I don't know, history doesn't, I'm sure some enterprising tabloid journalists has
40:38tried to track her down and find her, but history doesn't relate whether Sarah's still
40:42in touch.
40:43I mean, I'm just thinking about the producers, I think we've got this great story, it connects
40:47to the Duke and Duchess of York.
40:49Well, Greg, nothing's going to beat that.
40:51Oh, there's more.
40:53Oh, there's more.
40:53Well, interestingly enough, this drama, it was supposed to be shown last autumn, October,
40:59November, but then the Epstein stuff raised its head again and again.
41:03Well, it's interesting, if you see what reputational damage Sarah Ferguson has had to endure in
41:08the past year or two, it would be, you'd have to have a very, very, very careful scrutiny
41:16of how that character works in that drama now, wouldn't you?
41:18Because you wouldn't want to portray sympathetically a character who the audience didn't feel sympathetic
41:23towards, perhaps.
41:25No.
41:25I don't know.
41:26It's interesting to think, I mean, Grimsby seems very distant from royal circles, no disrespect
41:31to Grimsby, which I know and indeed like.
41:33But it's an extraordinary thing that can happen to people, isn't it?
41:37That they go and find themselves one minute working in Buckingham Palace or in Kensington
41:40Palace or in St James's Palace or wherever it might be or Royal Lodge.
41:45These wages aren't particularly high.
41:47I mean, I think I remember, you know, Kate and William were advertising for a gardener
41:50for something like £23,000 per annum a year, £23,000 for a garden.
41:55Would you get somewhere to live with that?
41:57Not necessarily.
41:58Right.
41:59So I think that, if I remember rightly, that was for Anmer Hall.
42:01So you might get, as you say, you might get at Windsor, there's a lot of staff residences.
42:07There are staff residences at BP, Buckingham Palace.
42:09There's quite a lot of staff residences and flats at Kensington Palace.
42:13But these jobs are not particularly well paid.
42:15And some of them, like the private secretary or the comms secretary or the executive assistant,
42:20the dresser, the companion of honour, the lady-in-waiting, the valet, you are there 24-7
42:26for the person that you serve.
42:28And it depends on your principal, how much demands they make of you.
42:32But I remember someone who loved working for Catherine and William, but they were on call
42:40all the time.
42:41And it's very difficult, I think, to have your own private life when you are constantly
42:47on call, which is why it tends to be younger people who perhaps maybe don't have kids or
42:52a lot of gay men work.
42:53Interestingly, not so many gay women, but a lot of gay men work at the palace.
42:57Well, I know.
42:57Yeah.
42:58Why is that fast?
42:59Oh, I know some gay male friends of mine who have been members of the royal household.
43:04Yeah.
43:04Yeah.
43:05When there are big, big news stories breaking, you know, Harry and Meghan, the Yorks, and
43:12people are very under stress.
43:15People do it because of the love for the institution often.
43:19But also there's that curious relationship.
43:21I mean, it's often the case, isn't it, that, you know, the queen and her relationship with
43:24Angela Kelly, which started out as, well, she was a dresser, I think, wasn't she?
43:28Yeah.
43:28Or you get, you know, knights of the theatre who have these very close relationships with
43:33their dressers too.
43:34People who have that relationship with their driver sometimes.
43:37And these are important people with status in the world, but they spend a lot of time
43:41with those people.
43:42Falling in love with your bodyguard, that's another thing.
43:44Yeah.
43:44And all of a sudden, the human desire for intimacy and closeness and...
43:48Emotional support.
43:50Yeah, exactly.
43:50Connection.
43:51Yeah.
43:51And it is slightly odd, isn't it?
43:53Because you're paying these people, but they become closer than sometimes your friends.
43:58And then you fire them.
43:59That's all we have time for.
44:01Please join us next week, next Thursday on Apple, Spotify and YouTube, wherever you get
44:06your podcasts.
44:07And if you want to see us on five, we're on the box on Saturday.
44:12That's all from the podcast.
44:13She never complains, but always explains.
44:17And if you would like to email a question, please do at royals at spirit-studios.com.
44:23See you next week.
44:24See you.
44:25See you.
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