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Quem decide quem pertence à Europa? O debate sobre a migração regressa
No episódio desta semana do programa "The Ring", os eurodeputados Juan Fernando López Aguilar (S&D) e Tomas Tobé (PPE) debatem a forma como a Europa deve gerir a migração, desde a aplicação do conceito de "país terceiro seguro" até ao plano de regularização em grande escala da Espanha.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/02/13/quem-decide-quem-pertence-a-europa-o-debate-sobre-a-migracao-regressa
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
No episódio desta semana do programa "The Ring", os eurodeputados Juan Fernando López Aguilar (S&D) e Tomas Tobé (PPE) debatem a forma como a Europa deve gerir a migração, desde a aplicação do conceito de "país terceiro seguro" até ao plano de regularização em grande escala da Espanha.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/02/13/quem-decide-quem-pertence-a-europa-o-debate-sobre-a-migracao-regressa
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:09Olá e bem-vindos ao The Ring, Euronews' debate show
00:12da União Europeia em Strasbourg,
00:15onde os membros da União Europeia
00:17vão se sentirem sobre os mais pressionais para a Europa.
00:21E esse dia, nós falamos sobre a migração.
00:24O ex-produtor, Luiz Alberto, tem mais.
00:30O ex-produtor, Luiz Alberto, tem mais.
00:59This large-scale regularização policy raises another question.
01:04Beyond labor shortages and demographic decline,
01:06is Europe willing to offer refuge to people whose lives are threatened?
01:10Beyond the legal language lies a deeper reality.
01:13Around the world, from political chambers to cultural stages,
01:16like Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance,
01:18celebrating Latin identity on one of America's biggest events,
01:21Migração não é só um problema de política,
01:24mas é parte de como as sociedades evoluam,
01:26funcionam e se reivindem.
01:27Então a debate não é só sobre listas e procedimentos,
01:30mas sobre quem é, quem decide e se a Europa
01:33pode reconciliar as escolhas nas quais
01:35com a responsabilidade coletiva
01:36em uma das suas perguntas mais definidas.
01:40E essa é a pergunta para os contadores.
01:43Vamos nos reunir.
01:46Juan Fernando López Aguilar,
01:48um presidente de Espanhol da Socialista e Democrática.
01:50He chairs the Committee on Civil Liberties,
01:53Justice and Home Affairs
01:54and is one of the European Parliament's
01:56most influential figures on migration
01:58and asylum policy.
02:00Before being an MEP,
02:02he served as Spain's Minister of Justice.
02:04López Aguilar has consistently stressed
02:06the need to balance effective migration management
02:09with respect for international law
02:11and fundamental rights.
02:12Policies that legalize and integrate people
02:15already living and contributing in our societies
02:17are part of a mature
02:19and humane approach to migration,
02:21he said.
02:22Thomas Tobe,
02:23a Swedish MEP
02:24and vice-chair of the Central Right European People's Party.
02:28Like López Aguilar,
02:29he serves on the Committee of Civil Liberties,
02:31Justice and Home Affairs
02:32and has consistently emphasized
02:34the need to strengthen Europe's asylum system
02:36through efficient border management
02:38and cooperation with third countries.
02:40We are taking decisive steps
02:42to guarantee effective control over migration
02:44and speed up the return of illegal migrants.
02:46By clearly distinguishing
02:48between those in need of international protection
02:50and those who are not,
02:51we are reducing pressure at our borders,
02:53he said.
02:55Juan Fernando López Aguilar
02:57and Thomas Tobe,
02:59thank you so much for joining us on The Ring.
03:01As you know,
03:02the goal and really the essence of the show
03:04is to bring our viewers a real taste
03:06of the parliamentary debates
03:08that go on both in Strasbourg and Brussels.
03:11The topic is migration.
03:12And my first question,
03:13is migration an opportunity
03:15or has it become a problem?
03:18Both.
03:18But as for me,
03:20it's certainly an opportunity.
03:21It's only obvious
03:23that migration happens
03:24to be the most divisive issue
03:25in the European agenda.
03:26It's polarizing in geographic terms.
03:30It's not the same,
03:31the perception in the north,
03:32in the Baltics,
03:33that it is in the south.
03:34I come from the Canary Islands.
03:36I know what I'm talking of.
03:37It's ideologically divisive.
03:39It's not the same,
03:40the approach of the reactionary nationalism
03:43to the approach
03:44of the progressive responsibility,
03:47shared responsibility
03:49and humanitarian approach to migration.
03:51Same question to you.
03:52Of course,
03:53Europe needs work migration.
03:55That is not the problem.
03:57The problem we have
03:58is that we have
03:58a large number of illegal migration.
04:01And only one out of five
04:04who don't have the right
04:05to stay in Europe
04:06actually returns.
04:07And of course,
04:08we need to shift this.
04:10We need to have control
04:11of our borders.
04:12People who don't have the right
04:13to be in Europe
04:14should not be in Europe.
04:15And then, of course,
04:16we should have legal work migration.
04:18But what we're seeing now,
04:20for example,
04:21in Spain,
04:22they are now giving amnesty
04:23to 500,000 illegal migrants.
04:27This is a direct threat
04:29to the Schengen area.
04:30It undermines the Europe effort.
04:33We are trying to work now
04:34to have a more of a common
04:36European migration policy.
04:38And I think it's time for us
04:40to actually decide,
04:41do we want to have control
04:43of the border?
04:44Do we want to have
04:45legal work migration?
04:47Or should we continue
04:48this path in Europe
04:49with the legal migration?
04:50It needs to stop.
04:51In hindsight.
04:52I strongly disagree with
04:53what I just heard
04:53from my colleague and friend,
04:55Thomas Tobey.
04:56First,
04:56there's no illegal people.
04:58We used to talk
04:58about irregular migrants.
05:00It's not an amnesty.
05:01He used the word amnesty.
05:02Of course it is not.
05:03It's a regularization
05:04which belongs to the competence
05:06of the member states.
05:07And it's been recognized
05:09by the European Commission itself.
05:11Second,
05:11it is not true
05:12that they're illegal.
05:15We always had a problem
05:17in the European Union
05:18with lack of legal pathways.
05:20That's one thing.
05:21We need more legal pathways.
05:23But when people
05:24come irregularly
05:25it's because they are not
05:26given the chance
05:27to make it regularly.
05:28But insofar as they happen
05:30to already be in Spain,
05:31working in Spain,
05:33we are regulating
05:33not only human beings,
05:35but also jobs.
05:37And we're making it possible
05:39for those human beings
05:41employed
05:41in the irregular economy,
05:44in the so-called
05:45black market,
05:46as for now,
05:47to make it regularly
05:48so that they can actually
05:49pay taxes.
05:49They can actually contribute
05:51to the sustainability
05:52of the social services
05:54in which it is a fact
05:55that they support more,
05:57they give more
05:58than they receive.
05:59It is not true
06:01that they are predatory
06:02to social services.
06:03on the contrary,
06:04they can actually contribute
06:05to the sustainability
06:07of the social services.
06:08And I make a final point.
06:09Spain is number one
06:11in growth
06:11and job creation
06:12in the European Union.
06:13And there is no
06:14economic analysis
06:15that does not
06:17underline the fact
06:18that it's largely due
06:20because it's
06:20alternative approach,
06:22positive approach
06:23to migration,
06:24incorporating,
06:25inclusive,
06:25integrating migrants
06:26instead of rejecting migrants.
06:28of course,
06:29if you take a decision
06:30that to say
06:31500,000 people,
06:33we're not talking
06:34of a small group here,
06:36and you're basically
06:37handing out documents,
06:39that means that
06:40the next day
06:40they could travel
06:41to Sweden,
06:42they could travel
06:43to Germany.
06:44You don't even check
06:45if they have
06:46a criminal history.
06:47And of course,
06:48a large number
06:49of these people in Spain
06:50are people who just
06:51want to work,
06:52who want to contribute
06:53to the society.
06:53But this is a decision
06:56that will have
06:56serious consequences
06:57because both me,
06:59Juan Fernando López Aguilar
07:00and me,
07:01we worked together
07:01during the last mandate
07:02with the Migration Pact.
07:04We tried to work together.
07:06And for example,
07:07we are saying
07:07we need to help Spain
07:09because many times
07:10Spain is under
07:11migratory pressure.
07:12The problem is now,
07:13you're saying
07:14you need help
07:16with migratory pressure
07:17in Spain.
07:18And at the same time,
07:19you make this decision
07:20to give amnesty
07:22to 500,000
07:23irregular migrants.
07:24It doesn't add up.
07:26You should know better.
07:27The decision being made
07:28by the Spanish government
07:29has been actually explained
07:30by the prime minister himself
07:32in an article published
07:33in New York Times.
07:34He doesn't even care
07:35about the Spanish parliament.
07:37He doesn't even care
07:38about the commissioners.
07:39It's not an amnesty.
07:40It's a regularization.
07:41Second,
07:41it is not true
07:42that they will be free
07:44to circulate
07:45in all of the Schengen area
07:46because they will be given
07:47the chance
07:47to actually regularize
07:50their job
07:50because they are actually
07:51employed in Spain
07:52only in the black market
07:54for one year,
07:55just for one year
07:56of residence.
07:56It doesn't mean
07:57that they will circulate freely
07:59because they are bound
08:00to the job market
08:01in Spain
08:01and to the residents
08:02in Spain.
08:03So we are given
08:04the chance
08:04to those many people.
08:06But it is a fact
08:07that Spain
08:08is a large country,
08:09larger than Sweden
08:10to begin with.
08:11It's 50 million people,
08:12Spain.
08:13So 500,000 immigrants
08:16which are already
08:16in the job market,
08:17which are already
08:18working in Spain,
08:19they are given
08:20the chance
08:20to make it dignified,
08:21to have dignity,
08:23to have a regular situation
08:24and to actually contribute
08:26with the taxes.
08:26This is a reflection
08:27of reality.
08:28He says this is a reflection
08:29of reality.
08:30It is not true
08:31that they are going
08:32to invade
08:33the rest of the Schengen area
08:34because they are bound
08:35to the job market
08:35in Spain
08:36and the residents.
08:36I'm not talking
08:36about invading.
08:38I'm talking about
08:38that we need to have,
08:39we have to choose a path.
08:41Some use the word invasion.
08:42Is that too much?
08:43No, I mean,
08:43I don't think we should
08:44use those kind of words.
08:46But I mean,
08:46we need to make a decision.
08:49Do we want to have control
08:50of our immigration policy
08:51or not?
08:52And I would say,
08:53if we have people
08:54coming to Europe,
08:55we reject their asylum request,
08:58they come irregular,
08:59then you should not be
09:00in Europe.
09:00You cannot have it
09:01both ways.
09:02We have people
09:02who have come
09:03and they do have
09:04the right to be in Europe.
09:05We say yes.
09:06But for those
09:07who get a no decision,
09:09you actually need to return.
09:10Now you're basically saying,
09:12well, if you come,
09:13if you live in the shadows,
09:15if you somehow make sure
09:16that you stay in Europe,
09:17you will get this chance.
09:18What you're saying now
09:19is basically,
09:21and this is also very,
09:22it's a difference,
09:24you know,
09:24in approach,
09:25if we compare it to Greece,
09:26if we compare it to Italy.
09:28They are trying
09:29to handle a situation.
09:30Spain is now going
09:32on a rogue way in Europe,
09:33and this is actually
09:34very dangerous.
09:35You say it's a political decision.
09:36We've got to move on
09:37to our next round.
09:38I see you're all
09:39warm-tup already.
09:43So now this is the moment
09:44for you to ask
09:46each other questions
09:47directly.
09:48So since I cut you off,
09:49Mr. Toby,
09:50let me give you the floor
09:51in the first place.
09:52Juan Fernando López Aguilar,
09:54we worked together
09:55on the migration pact,
09:57the last mandate.
09:57I think we actually achieved
09:59some very important things
10:00together for Europe.
10:02But you also know
10:03that we need to tackle
10:05returns.
10:07One out of five people
10:08are actually returned,
10:10and this cannot continue.
10:11Now commission
10:12is presenting proposals
10:14supported by several
10:16S&D governments
10:17across Europe.
10:18But now the S&D group
10:20and the European Parliament
10:21are voting no
10:22to every proposal
10:24that means that we actually
10:25could be more efficient
10:26with returns.
10:28When will you face the reality?
10:30Yes, we work together
10:31in the Migration and Asylum Pact,
10:33eight regulations,
10:34but it's not complete.
10:35It takes a lot of coordination
10:37in search and rescue operation
10:38at a European scale.
10:39It takes a lot of legal pathways.
10:41It takes a lot of cracking down
10:42on the business model
10:43of organized crime,
10:45dealing with trafficking
10:47of human beings.
10:47But yes,
10:49we have to come up
10:50with a European scale
10:51of response
10:52when it comes to
10:52Migration and Asylum
10:53and returns.
10:55It's part of the equation.
10:56We don't deny that,
10:57but we want returns
10:59to be negotiated
11:00with dignity,
11:02with third parties,
11:03with third parties,
11:04countries of transit
11:05and origin.
11:06And it takes a diplomatic
11:07architecture which is lacking.
11:08You cannot impose returns
11:10and you cannot ignore
11:11that you cannot return people
11:14to places they don't belong to.
11:16and that is why we object
11:18the proposal by the Commission
11:20because it escapes
11:21the meaningful link
11:23between the country
11:25of transit or origin
11:26and the human being
11:27which is supposedly
11:28to be returned there.
11:30I have heard,
11:31because I have been
11:32the representative
11:33of the European Parliament
11:34in the Council of Ministers
11:35of Interior many times,
11:37fly them to Rwanda.
11:38And my question is,
11:38why Rwanda?
11:39Do you think because
11:40they're just indistinct
11:41in Rwanda
11:42because they're black,
11:43even though they don't
11:44belong to Rwanda,
11:46even though they come
11:47from Mali
11:48or from Sudan
11:49or from Uganda?
11:51No, it doesn't make sense.
11:52You need meaningful links.
11:54And for that,
11:55it takes a negotiation
11:56with third parties.
11:57It doesn't suffice
11:59that you simply pay
12:00some ruler,
12:01some money
12:02to keep them
12:02out of our sight.
12:03So you say,
12:04why continue
12:05the Rwanda model?
12:05We're not talking
12:06about Rwanda here.
12:07It's about saying,
12:08we have candidate countries
12:10to Europe.
12:12Could we consider them
12:13safe countries?
12:14So they go up to Albania?
12:15It could be.
12:17We're talking about,
12:19for example, India.
12:21We have a,
12:22I mean,
12:22look at the assignment request,
12:24unfolded assignment request.
12:26There are under 5%
12:27that actually get a yes
12:29to come to Europe.
12:30And everything
12:31will be assessed
12:32individually.
12:33But what we need to do,
12:35we cannot continue
12:36in this way
12:36where we have
12:37a lot of unfounded
12:38assignment requests
12:39coming to Europe
12:40and then it takes
12:41a long time
12:42and basically it means
12:43that you never leave.
12:44We cannot continue
12:45in this way.
12:46But just to be precise
12:46on this point
12:47for our viewers,
12:48when you mentioned Albania,
12:49the Italian government
12:49ran into major issues
12:51with the judiciary
12:52over sending migrants
12:54arriving in Italy
12:55to Albania.
12:56So it's not crystal clear
12:57this is going to work.
12:57No, no, no.
12:58But Albania is another topic.
13:00It's between,
13:01it's a deal
13:02that has been banned.
13:03been done by the Italian
13:04and the Albanian.
13:06That is a deal
13:07that they've done.
13:07But if they had issues,
13:08what makes you think
13:09that the EU would not
13:09run into issues
13:10in other candidate countries?
13:12Well, this has,
13:14this proposal
13:15has been now assessed
13:17by all the EU authorities,
13:19UNHCR,
13:20and of course,
13:21we have the right
13:22to return people
13:23if they are not
13:24in any risk
13:26of persecution
13:26and so on.
13:27We, S&D,
13:28we don't deny
13:29the importance
13:29of returns.
13:30Actually,
13:30we have heard
13:31about just
13:32and ministers
13:33of interior
13:34which are actually
13:35concerned about returns.
13:36But why
13:37the percentage
13:38of returnees
13:39is so low?
13:40Because we don't have
13:41an architecture
13:42of agreements
13:43with third parties
13:44of transit
13:45and origin.
13:46And then
13:47there comes
13:47the commission
13:48saying we're going
13:49to enlarge
13:50the list arbitrarily,
13:52the list of
13:53safe third countries,
13:55including Bangladesh
13:55and Egypt,
13:56for instance,
13:57which are not considered
13:58safe countries
13:59of transit
14:00or origin
14:00by the European
14:02Asylum Agency.
14:03That is why
14:04we have objected.
14:05We have tried
14:05to come up
14:06with amendments
14:06and the...
14:08So before we move on,
14:09but just before we move on,
14:10what...
14:10The People's Party,
14:11the EPP,
14:12along with the far right,
14:13have denied
14:13all of our amendments
14:15saying that
14:16there are red lines
14:17for them.
14:18So what is the question?
14:19My question is,
14:20do you really think
14:21that you can actually
14:22export people
14:23to some third country
14:25with no meaningful links
14:26with those particular
14:27human beings
14:28just for the sake
14:29that you're paying
14:29some money
14:30to some ruler
14:31to keep them
14:31out of our sight?
14:32Do you think
14:33you can send someone
14:34which is actually
14:35from Sudan
14:36to Egypt?
14:37Or do you think
14:38you can send someone
14:39which is actually
14:40from Uganda
14:41to Libya
14:42or to Tunisia
14:44just for the sake
14:45of having them
14:46out of our sight?
14:47Do you think
14:47that we can actually
14:48ignore the meaningful links
14:49which include
14:50culture,
14:51linguistic
14:52or even family links
14:54which are to be
14:55considered seriously
14:56by countries
14:57which are to return
14:58human beings
14:58to some other place?
15:00So let's hear it.
15:01If the socialist
15:01in the European Parliament
15:03would decide
15:04there are no safe countries
15:05outside of Europe
15:06I mean
15:06I hear that
15:07when we started
15:08the negotiations
15:09about the countries
15:10there's no country
15:11that you can accept
15:12if you come to Europe
15:14of course we need
15:15to assess
15:15where you come from
15:16of course
15:17we will always do that
15:18but of course
15:19there are countries
15:20when a person
15:21comes to Europe
15:21we can look
15:22from which country
15:23have you been
15:24could you be safe
15:25in this country
15:26or not?
15:26That is the question
15:27and of course
15:28this is now portrayed
15:31as some kind of
15:33delusional
15:33far-right policy
15:35this is a policy
15:36coming from commission
15:37this is a policy
15:38coming from S&D governments
15:40all across Europe
15:41because we cannot
15:42continue in this way
15:43where we have
15:44only one out of five people
15:46return in Europe
15:47then it means
15:48that even the people
15:50that need protection
15:51in Europe
15:51will not get
15:52the protection in Europe
15:53we have to change
15:54the policy
15:55We are going to continue
15:56It takes agreements
15:56It takes agreements
15:57of course
15:58and that's the point
15:59of the show too
15:59at times
16:00Let's try to bring in
16:01a new voice
16:02into this debate
16:03we've heard from the two
16:04let's bring in a new one
16:08And of course
16:08the voice
16:09that I'm referring to
16:10is the man
16:11who handles
16:12this file
16:13Commissioner Magnus Bruner
16:14who did say
16:15on the record
16:16member states
16:16need to ensure
16:17that these decisions
16:18do not put at risk
16:20the integrity
16:21of the EU area
16:22the common area
16:23without internal controls
16:24and to duly consider
16:26potential migratory
16:27and security
16:29implications
16:29What is your reaction
16:31to these words?
16:31He's obviously
16:32not happy
16:33with this decision
16:33He's saying
16:34it should have
16:35at the very least
16:36been done
16:36in consultation
16:37with the rest
16:37of the EU
16:38I stated it clear
16:39because I was part
16:40of the debate
16:40just yesterday
16:42let's be blunt
16:43and clear
16:44about it
16:44the Spanish government
16:46is a progressive government
16:47in the European Union
16:49which is leaning right
16:50to far right
16:51more than never before
16:53But sir
16:53that's not the point
16:54of the commissioner
16:55he's simply saying
16:55do it in consultation
16:56Spain
16:57Spain is being attacked
16:58precisely because
16:59there is a progressive
17:00government
17:00which is meaning
17:01an alternative
17:02to the prevalent
17:03to the predominant
17:05look to migration
17:06and asylum
17:07which is negative
17:07and rejection
17:08and it's doomed
17:10to fall
17:10to fail
17:12The point
17:12that Spain
17:13is making
17:14is that there
17:14is another way
17:15integration
17:16inclusion
17:17and respect
17:19to the dignity
17:20of the jobs
17:20that are actually
17:22being implemented
17:24in Spain
17:25as a factor
17:27for the Spanish
17:28growth
17:28and job creation
17:29Meaning
17:30that Spain
17:31has the competence
17:32which has been
17:33recognized
17:34by the commission
17:34to take a decision
17:35of regularizing
17:37people who are already
17:38living and working
17:40in Spain
17:40to give them
17:42a chance
17:42of opportunity
17:43to have a dignity
17:45which is an alternative
17:46to fear
17:47to fear mongering
17:49to exploiting fear
17:50against migrants
17:51There is a bit
17:53of distrust
17:54I mean
17:54if Spain wants
17:55to have
17:56high migration
17:57let's say
17:58that you decide
17:59that you want
17:59to have even
18:00higher migration
18:00to Spain
18:01it's up to
18:02the Spanish government
18:03for sure
18:03but the problem
18:04with this decision
18:05is that you're
18:06sending the signal
18:07come irregular
18:09to Spain
18:10or Europe
18:10and then we will
18:11give you an amnesty
18:12That is
18:13I think
18:14the problem
18:14that Spain
18:15will face
18:16now
18:16You can say
18:17the word amnesty
18:18the Spanish government
18:18says it's not an amnesty
18:19because they haven't committed
18:20Well of course it is
18:21It's an amnesty
18:22Why?
18:23Because
18:24this is 500,000 people
18:26who have come
18:26irregular
18:27It is a decision
18:29taken by the prime minister
18:31He doesn't even consult
18:32his own parliament
18:33He doesn't even speak
18:35to the other European countries
18:36This is a decision
18:37which I personally believe
18:39is more about
18:40the political fight
18:41in Spain
18:42and it's a power grab
18:43He needs to do this
18:45to his coalition partners
18:46in Spain
18:46It's not about solidarity
18:48for these people
18:49The Spanish government
18:50says they are not criminals
18:51so it's not an amnesty
18:55Of course
18:56most of these people
18:57are not criminals
18:58Let's be serious about this
19:00But
19:00he won't even check
19:02if they have a criminal history
19:03He just wants to hand out
19:05the documents
19:05and this is very serious
19:07What about the background checks?
19:08That's a fair point
19:09If you're going to give out papers
19:11to live or work in a country
19:12you need to know who they are
19:13There is going to be
19:13a scrutiny and control
19:14by the Ministry of Interior
19:15that there are no criminal record
19:17There is no criminal record
19:19There is no police record
19:20No one would qualify
19:22for the regularization
19:23if there's criminal record
19:24or police record
19:25So they have to be
19:26absolutely clean
19:27and they already have to be
19:28So you said have a million people
19:29will not have any criminal records
19:31You can guarantee
19:32that that will not be the case
19:33Of course
19:33That is the role
19:34of the Ministry of Interior
19:35and that is a condition
19:36for the regularization
19:37That is a legal constitution
19:38There is legal certainty
19:39There has to be a time frame
19:41There is no pool effect
19:42Let's go now
19:43Very short break
19:45Of course the topic clearly is heated
19:46But stay with us here
19:48on The Ring
19:49We'll be right back
19:50with more
19:59Welcome back to The Ring
20:01Euronews' new weekly show
20:03I'm joined by MEPs
20:04Juan Fernando López Aguilar
20:06and Thomas Tobey
20:07And the idea
20:08This is really the essence
20:09of the show
20:10is to bring you a taste
20:11of the European Parliament's
20:12debates to your home
20:14and your sofa
20:15if that's also possible
20:16And this week
20:17our guests are sharing
20:18their views on migration
20:20and according to data
20:22from the European Parliament
20:23and the European Commission
20:25in 2024
20:26about 997,000 asylum applications
20:31were recorded
20:32That is a 13% drop
20:34compared to 2023
20:35And in March alone
20:37in 2025
20:38around 58,000
20:40first-time asylum applicants
20:42lodged claims
20:43both the number of arrivals
20:45and the asylum requests
20:46have dropped significantly
20:48So the progressive aisle
20:50in the European Parliament argues
20:51is that to some extent
20:53the right has created
20:54a monster
20:55that doesn't really exist
20:57were reflected in the numbers
20:58Is that a fair point?
21:00No, I don't think so
21:01What we're trying to do
21:02is to restore control
21:05of migration in Europe
21:06I think we need to make a difference
21:09if you have the right
21:09to stay in Europe
21:10or you don't have the right
21:12to stay in Europe
21:13And of course
21:14we need to have
21:14legal pathways
21:16We need to have
21:16work migration to Europe
21:17But we cannot continue
21:19in this way
21:20that the main idea
21:21for Europe
21:22is to have
21:23irregular migration
21:25to Europe
21:25But no one is saying that
21:27Are they?
21:27But who's saying
21:28they want irregular
21:29migrants in Europe?
21:30Who's saying that?
21:31Well, that is basically
21:32what the progressive
21:33in Parliament is saying
21:34because they don't want
21:36to have proposals
21:37to actually have people returned
21:38and the people
21:40that have come irregular
21:41they want to give amnesty
21:42It's a policy
21:43that basically says
21:45well, if you need
21:46asylum in Europe
21:47come and we will grant it to you
21:49If we can't grant you
21:50the asylum
21:51well, we will fix another way
21:52for you to be in Europe anyway
21:54It takes legal pathways
21:55to have regular migrations
21:56But he says
21:57you're allowing
21:57legal migration
21:58There is lack of legal pathways
21:59We need to build more on that
22:00But let me tell you something
22:01I'm well aware
22:02because I've been here
22:03some years
22:04that there is a mantra
22:05by the right
22:06which is increasingly endorsed
22:08by the conventional conservatives
22:10by the far right
22:11which is that
22:12we are subject to
22:13some kind of an invasion
22:15that migration is
22:16out of control
22:17that we are going to
22:18even be replaced
22:20that the
22:20the originary
22:22toxicous population
22:24of the European Union
22:25white and Christian
22:26will be
22:27overnight
22:28replaced
22:29they say
22:30by black people
22:31and Muslims
22:31That is complete bullshit
22:33It's not happening
22:35The numbers are manageable
22:36insofar as we do it
22:37not leaning on hysteria
22:40or panic
22:40but making the point
22:43sticking to our values
22:44and legislated law
22:46If we do it together
22:47according to EU laws
22:48we can do it
22:49We are 450 million citizens
22:5227 member states
22:53among them
22:54one of the most prosperous
22:56countries in the world
22:57We have welfare
22:58We have opportunity
22:59We have an economy
23:01that can actually
23:03incorporate migrants
23:04Actually we need them
23:05because it's good
23:07for demography
23:07It's good for an economy
23:09It's good for a prosperity
23:11We can make it right
23:13if we do it
23:13according to laws
23:14That is something
23:15we can certainly agree
23:16Thomas and I
23:17But what I see
23:18across Europe
23:19are even
23:21I mean
23:22conservative governments
23:24even S&D governments
23:25realizing that
23:26Europe needs
23:27a shift in migration policy
23:29We need control
23:30of the borders
23:30We need to have
23:32a big difference
23:33If you have the right
23:34to stay in Europe
23:35Yes, you're welcome
23:36If you don't have the right
23:38you need to be returned
23:39And of course
23:40then you can say
23:40that we need work migration
23:42for sure
23:42We have some shortages
23:44that we need
23:44of course people
23:45to come and work in Europe
23:46But the problem is
23:47that we continue
23:48in this way
23:49to have irregular migrants
23:50come
23:51And that is
23:51the big numbers
23:53Of course
23:54there will be
23:54constraints in the society
23:56Demigration policy
23:57doesn't work
23:58Member states
23:59don't trust each other
24:00And finally
24:01now we are building
24:02up trust
24:03for a European
24:04migration policy
24:05Then we see
24:06in a way
24:06Spain becoming
24:07kind of the black sheep
24:08Now when it comes
24:09to migration policy
24:10But if you say
24:10it's political
24:11What's the political advantage
24:12You say Europeans
24:13don't want to see
24:13a regular migration
24:14This is something
24:15they no longer want
24:16to tolerate
24:17and there's consensus
24:17on this
24:18What's therefore
24:19the political calculus
24:20of the Spanish government?
24:21I think it's very much
24:22a domestic issue
24:23This is a government
24:25that has a very special
24:27coalition agreement
24:28with some left parties
24:29Even left parties
24:31that actually
24:31are having
24:32these crazy theories
24:33that they want
24:34to legalize
24:35some of these
24:36irregular migrants
24:36because they want votes
24:37I mean
24:38it's crazy thinking
24:39but I wouldn't
24:41accuse Juan
24:42Fernando López Aguilar
24:43of that
24:43I do hope
24:44in his heart
24:45he can see
24:46some people
24:46that actually
24:47are contributing
24:48to the Spanish society
24:49and want to give them
24:50a break
24:50sure
24:51but I think
24:52he's wrong
24:52I think
24:53those people
24:53should come
24:54the legal way
24:55to Europe
24:55Spain is a progressive
24:56government
24:56a coalition government
24:57even a minority
24:58government
24:58has nothing to do
25:00with the fact
25:00that Spain
25:01is under attack
25:01precisely because
25:02it's opposing
25:03an alternative
25:04to that predominant
25:05negative outlook
25:06to a more
25:07positive approach
25:08but his criticism
25:09is this is a decision
25:10to keep the coalition
25:11together
25:11it's not really
25:12in line with
25:13what the people
25:13want from their government
25:15and the results
25:15in regional elections
25:16for Spain
25:17were not good
25:17so maybe there's
25:18a disconnect
25:19between public perception
25:20and government action
25:21in Spain the organization
25:21process that has been
25:23decided by the government
25:24has had the
25:26endorsement
25:26of the Catholic Church
25:27of the entrepreneurs
25:28of the business
25:30of the corporates
25:30because it's good
25:32for the job market
25:33it's good for the economy
25:34actually
25:34I insist
25:35there is no
25:37economic analysis
25:38in Spain
25:39even worldwide
25:40in international press
25:41that does not
25:43shed light
25:44on the fact
25:44that one of the factors
25:45of Spanish
25:46being number one
25:47in economy
25:48growth
25:48and job creation
25:49is precisely
25:50it's positive look
25:51towards migration
25:52we need to now
25:53move on
25:54into our next
25:55and final session
25:57this one will be
25:58different
25:58it's shorter
25:59so I hope that
26:00you're ready
26:04I'm going to ask
26:05a set of questions
26:06and you can only
26:07answer with a yes
26:08or no
26:10response
26:11would you say now
26:12the European Union
26:13border controls
26:14are being effectively
26:15implemented
26:16or extra measures
26:17now
26:17still needed
26:18to continue that path
26:19it's sufficiently
26:20controlled
26:20yes
26:21borders are sufficiently
26:21controlled
26:22no need for extra
26:23measures
26:24we need to do
26:24we need to do
26:26more
26:26does Europe
26:26need fewer
26:27but more
26:28clear rules
26:29the short answer
26:30is yes
26:30but still
26:31I must add
26:33that
26:34clear rules
26:35does not mean
26:36lower rules
26:37we need a clear policy
26:38if you have the right
26:39to stay in Europe
26:40yes
26:40if you don't have
26:41no
26:42and then you will be returned
26:43now my final question
26:44which is always
26:45the hardest and the most difficult
26:46did your opponent
26:47in this case
26:48of course you had
26:49very different views
26:50did they change
26:51in any way
26:51however
26:52your perception
26:52in this debate
26:53but of course
26:54the European Parliament
26:55is all about
26:56a humbling lesson
26:57no one
26:58no one
26:58has every
26:59reasoning
27:01on its own
27:02on his
27:02on her own
27:03it always take
27:04compromising
27:05so you change
27:05your views
27:05in some way
27:06and of course
27:06I have reached
27:07compromises
27:07with Thomas
27:08and with the EPP
27:09many times
27:10throughout the years
27:10I've been here
27:11and I keep on doing it
27:12he has
27:13historically
27:14perhaps not in the debate
27:16today
27:16but I do appreciate
27:18that he says
27:19that Spain
27:20at least now
27:20seems to be open
27:21to also check
27:22the criminal background
27:24of the people
27:25that they want to give
27:26the amnesty to now
27:27thank you of course
27:28to our viewers
27:29for joining us
27:30we'd like to hear
27:31from you
27:31so do connect
27:32with us
27:33and write
27:33to the ring
27:34at uranews.com
27:36with your views
27:37your feedback
27:37opinions
27:38and see you
27:38very soon
27:39on uranews
27:40on uranews.com
27:41and see you
27:45on uranews.com
27:49on uranews.com
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