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Who Is Ghislaine Maxwell 2022 Season 1 Episode 2
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00:00Robert Maxwell is one of Britain's most influential businessmen.
00:08She said to me, don't forget, I'm daddy's girl.
00:12She was interested in sex, I mean, we have to say that.
00:15Women were to take off their tops and bras and present their breasts to the men.
00:21Robert Maxwell is dead.
00:22Robert Maxwell's business empire is collapsing tonight.
00:26I imagine that she went to America to get away from that.
00:29The only sin in New York is not to have money.
00:32She met Jeffrey Epstein and became involved in a relationship with it.
00:36Jeffrey Epstein was my best pal for decades.
00:38He appointed me in charge of Ulan.
00:41Many people have lost their money, you know, become impoverished.
00:46They're not all turned to crime.
00:48It's not the next step.
00:50You tell me, one person you know, and take 20 people who know them who don't give you different versions of what they think of that person.
01:00The much-anticipated trial of accused Jeffrey Epstein recruiter Ghislaine Maxwell is now underway here in New York.
01:13We'd like some answers.
01:15Let's get this show on the road.
01:16Well, the prosecution says Ghislaine Maxwell lured young girls with money and gifts and then subjected them to sexual abuse.
01:24Her defense argues she was the one manipulated by Jeffrey Epstein and ultimately is now the scapegoat for Epstein's crimes.
01:33What do you know, Ghislaine Maxwell?
01:35What do you know?
01:36Maxwell, the daughter of a British media mogul and Epstein's former girlfriend, faces six criminal counts, all focused on a decade-long period between 1994 and 2004.
01:50The prosecution case likely to hinge on the testimony of four women.
01:55Three of them will remain anonymous.
01:57A fourth woman, Annie Farmer, an American, has weighed her anonymity.
02:02It was definitely Ghislaine who asked me first about my sister Annie.
02:09I had definitely bragged about her to Epstein and to Ghislaine.
02:13In 1995, I was in Palm Beach and I was sitting outside by the pool and Ghislaine was, you know, leaning on a chaise and she said,
02:23Oh, it's too bad Annie's not here with us, you know.
02:26It would be very nice to have her here.
02:27They groomed me for a year to get to my sister, to get to my mom, to, you know, that's what they did.
02:35The fact that we believed at the time that she was his wife made us feel very safe.
02:42We all believed that Annie would be safe with a married couple.
02:46Like, why wouldn't she be?
02:47I saw her, I think, a couple of years after her father's death in New York at a party in the early evening in the Four Seasons Hotel.
03:17She still had her world in London, but she had moved her social, her operational base was New York.
03:26She was in a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein by this time.
03:32It was a very sort of active giver of parties and Ghislaine could fit into that life of the Upper East Side in a heartbeat.
03:42And I think to her that was an achievement.
03:44She was making it New York.
03:45Every time you went to a high-flying showbiz party or a fashion show party, she would be there.
03:56It was like she was the party.
04:00Because she was so glamorous, beautifully dressed, she would be hosting whatever party it was, even if she wasn't the hostess.
04:09And she would take over.
04:11And she was the dominant person in that party room.
04:16She knew everybody and she could work a room brilliantly.
04:20And it was a very noticeable difference from London, the early days, to New York, where she became Queen of New York.
04:32Being a young model, you get invited to a lot of dinners or events.
04:45And a lot of the times the men are older and want to be surrounded by models.
04:49That's sort of how it is.
04:52I first met Ghislaine in the mid-90s.
05:01Most of the time I'd seen her in London, then in New York, then in L.A.
05:05For me, having a title, being who I was, you know, that made me valuable.
05:14I was like an asset.
05:16She seemed to, like, thrive on introducing people and hosting dinners.
05:24One of the dinners I was at, you know, Bill Clinton was there.
05:28He was the president of the United States at the time.
05:32It was Ghislaine that had invited me to it.
05:34It definitely showed her power of being able to pull these people, you know, into something that was very intimate.
05:41And it was like, wow, okay, she's good.
05:45And I think Geoffrey just sort of stepped back and kind of let her do it.
05:51They were like a team.
05:52She was more social than him.
05:55It's almost like she would bring them in, you know, to the den, and then he would do business with them.
06:03And she looked like she enjoyed it.
06:11Basically, everyone who knew Epstein said something like, oh, I always knew he was into young women.
06:17You know, I didn't really think anything of it.
06:19And, you know, if you're talking about, like, New York in the 80s and 90s, like, rich billionaires being into young women is certainly, like, not that weird, you know, by any stretch.
06:29But almost everyone knew very specifically that Epstein was the guy who, like, oh, he likes young girls.
06:36Hello, is this Stuart?
06:46Yes.
06:47Hey, how's it going?
06:48I'm a writer.
06:49I'm doing a story on Geoffrey Epstein.
06:51I was wondering if maybe you wanted to talk, if you had any interactions with him or ever met him.
06:57Geoffrey had no attention span, whatever.
06:58It was about three seconds.
07:02He would interrupt the conversation and change it and say things like, what has that got to do with pussy?
07:10Really?
07:11Yeah, that was his favorite expression.
07:13In other words, it was subject changer.
07:15And it revealed what was really in his mind.
07:17Then, by chance, had a partner, Elan, who was a basket case.
07:24Right.
07:25The story is more bizarre than people begin to realize.
07:30She arrived at these shores as a depressed, dysfunctional wreck from what happened to her on account of her father.
07:41Right.
07:42And the last thing that should have happened to someone like that is to fall into the care of the likes of Geoffrey.
07:48Sure.
07:49He molded her into being complicit with his aspirations.
08:04I think it was a bit of an open secret that he was seeing other women, but she didn't walk away from it.
08:11And she wanted to remain in his life.
08:14And if he was going to see other people, then she would rather know about it and, in a sense, have some say in it.
08:22So I think that was hidden in plain sight.
08:27And I was told by a very close friend of Ghislaine that she'd been at an event in New York.
08:35And then Ghislaine says, well, I've got to go now, you know, see you after the event, because I've got to go and get some girls for Geoffrey.
08:43It stuck in my mind afterwards that she thought it was her job.
08:51So that it was like it was a duty.
08:53And when do you stop and say, hang on, this has gone from just a bit questionable or even seedy to something worse?
09:05I met her at a dinner in New York sometime in the 90s.
09:09It was a sort of well-heeled Upper East Side dinner party.
09:14She looked fantastic, and I hadn't seen her for probably nearly a decade, maybe.
09:20She was exactly as she'd always been.
09:22She was incredibly friendly.
09:24Tell me all about you.
09:25What have you been doing?
09:27And she kept going, so what's it like in London?
09:29What's happening in London?
09:30And I said, what are you doing here?
09:32You know, why don't you come home?
09:34And she said, yeah, she said, sometimes I think of coming home.
09:38And then she said, but I'm involved in this relationship, and it's really complicated.
09:44I said, why is it complicated?
09:45She said, it's just very complicated, and I'm entangled, and it's very difficult to extract myself.
09:52And I know it's not good for me, but I don't feel like I can get out right now.
09:56I wonder if one day the totally unacceptable blurred with the almost acceptable, and once
10:08she stepped over that line, there was no coming back.
10:12When I first met Ghislaine, she looked so elegant.
10:20I could see why people thought she was beautiful, and that very quickly faded when I got to know
10:26her.
10:26I was an art student in Manhattan in 1995, when I had the unfortunate experience of connecting
10:37with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
10:40The second time I met her, she was being very foolish, like in a very high school way.
10:49We sat down to dinner, and she hands around this brown bag, and when we reached in, there
10:54were falsies in the brown bag, and like condoms, and weird sex things, and I was like, I don't
11:00want to play this game.
11:01So immediately, I knew she was weird.
11:11I only worked for Jeffrey and Ghislaine for a year.
11:14I was just a student, and I didn't have any money.
11:17I was living hand-to-mouth, starving, and so I was stuck with them, and I worked at the
11:22door, and all that it entailed was sitting there with a large, white book, and everyone
11:29that came in and out had to be signed in.
11:34One time, Ghislaine walked over and said, look at the pinhole right next to you, and
11:37she's pointing right next to my head, and it was very disconcerting, and so I asked Jeffrey,
11:43and he took me in the room where all those cameras led, and it was like the old kind of
11:48TV screens, you know, it's 1995, so they're like stacked, but in shelves, and all the pictures
11:56were like private, you know, like the restroom, or the bedroom, or the wherever.
12:02It wasn't like pointed to the outside of the house where people were coming in, and you're
12:06watching the people walking by.
12:07It was inside the house.
12:10One of the most disturbing things was that Ghislaine would have all these young teens coming
12:16and going, and they were all girls, and they were sometimes in school uniforms.
12:21I asked her what they were, and she said models for Victoria's Secret, and after a while, I
12:27said, they can't be models because they don't have breasts, and Victoria's Secret's like,
12:31you know, they sell bras.
12:33And she said, no, no, no.
12:35She said, the limited corporation, Maria, has every kind of company involved.
12:39They have all kinds of models for whatever that they're selling, so there are children
12:45that model.
12:45It just seemed very strange.
12:48The only person that was scouting models was Ghislaine, and she was going out every day.
12:55That was her full-time job.
12:56I mean, that's what she told me.
12:58Ghislaine would go and get people out of Central Park.
13:02She would go around the time that school was ending, and she would do this from the limousine,
13:07and she would do this walking across to Central Park or walking by the schools.
13:11She invited me into the car with her, and I saw her jump out, give her phone number to
13:18a girl who was definitely a high school's child, and then run back with a number, and
13:25then that child showed up, you know, as one of the models.
13:28So that's how I knew, you know, she was doing it.
13:31Sometimes there were parents with them, but very rarely.
13:34And I remember a little girl walking downstairs crying, and she was wearing a uniform, and
13:42I thought, what happened?
13:44And Ghislaine said, she didn't get the job.
13:46Some people aren't cut out for modeling, you know, and I'm like, whoa, she's a kid.
13:51And I was like, I don't like this job.
13:53You know, I didn't know what was going on.
13:55I just didn't like it.
13:57The energy was really bad.
13:58One day, I got a phone call from Ghislaine Maxwell's office asking me if I would take
14:12a meeting with Ghislaine.
14:16I had just published a book, which I called Royal Blue, and it was a semi-autobiographical
14:22story of my childhood.
14:25I don't believe she read the book.
14:27I think she read the reviews.
14:29I go in, and she launches right into it, and she says, I want my Royal Blue.
14:36I want you to ghostwrite it.
14:39And then she starts pitching me.
14:42She says, I want you to live with me for a year and get to know everything and see everything.
14:48You're going to meet everyone.
14:51And then she finishes up with, I'm going to give you a lot of money.
14:56And I did not say anything.
14:59I don't look jubilant.
15:00Now she changes tack completely.
15:03She starts to beg.
15:05And she says, please, you have to write this book for me because I want Jeffrey to marry me.
15:14She says, I need Jeffrey to see me in a different light.
15:18And she says this extraordinary thing to me.
15:22She says, Jeffrey has to have three orgasms a day.
15:27And it's been determined by the best doctors in the world.
15:31And I help him because I cannot keep up with his libido.
15:38She tells me that she recruits three girls a day.
15:41And she says, what I do is when we're in Palm Beach, I get in my car and I drive to the trailer parks and I look for Jeffrey's type.
15:55And when I see what I'm looking for, I approach, I make a deal, I bring them home.
16:02And it was like you're ordering in food and then you order a new food the next.
16:08It was just offensive.
16:11I'm disgusted with her.
16:13And so I now lose my temper, which I can do.
16:17And I say to her, what are you talking about?
16:21Who are these girls?
16:25And she says to me, they are nothing.
16:29They are trash.
16:35She treated us like useless peasants.
16:37That's how she spoke to people that she deemed beneath her.
16:41And it was shocking.
16:44You know, I was called a nobody.
16:45And it was so strange because there was this part of me that admired them so much.
16:51Ghislaine knocked on the door and she was in her bathrobe and it wasn't even properly tied and I felt uncomfortable.
17:06So she started walking me down the hallway to a room I wasn't allowed to go to.
17:10I was told very strict rules not to even ever go in this one room.
17:15It was Jeffrey's room there and got this really bad feeling.
17:20And I walked in and I just knew.
17:24Ghislaine instructs me to rub his feet and I'm like, you know, and I was not good at it on purpose.
17:30And Jeffrey said, you know, sit up here.
17:33And I sat between them and I felt really uncomfortable, obviously, but I thought, well, maybe it's not going to be something bad.
17:46You know, they're just so weird anyway.
17:47Maybe this is part of it.
17:48But no, it was something bad and they began to assault me and they were both like doing it together.
17:57It became like this mechanical, you know, assault.
18:00But Ghislaine seemed to be the one, the only one enjoying it.
18:04Let me put it that way.
18:05Because I was crying and she was like rubbing my tear and wiping my hand and loving all over me.
18:11And I at some point just kind of forced myself up and like rolled up and got up and just ran out of the room.
18:20And I pushed this piece of furniture up against the door, just waited all night until they left that morning around eight.
18:30When I got home, the phone rang and it was Ghislaine.
18:34I'd been there maybe just like an hour.
18:37And she said, hey, Maria, what do you want?
18:42So I said, I'm going to the police.
18:44When I called the FBI to report it, I made Ghislaine Maxwell's role very clear.
18:51So they have known what role Ghislaine Maxwell played since 1996 when I told them.
18:57And I'm so angry because they allowed it to exist for 26 years.
19:02They created most of these victims you're hearing from today.
19:05Almost all of them happened after my report.
19:07I think one of the great tragedies of this story is what happened, or more accurately, what didn't happen when Ria Farma was abused.
19:23Nobody paid attention.
19:26It was one young girl's word against rich, powerful, connected people.
19:33If the prosecutors had done their job in the 1990s, this could have been stopped, ended, without the hundreds of young girls who were then going to be abused over the next two decades.
19:54Dozens, hundreds of young girls' lives could have been saved.
20:03When I was 22 years old, I was in massage therapy school.
20:10There was a girl who told me that there was someone hiring for a position traveling the world in a private jet with private chefs as a massage therapist.
20:22And that sounded like a wonderful opportunity.
20:25Within a couple of weeks, I had travel arrangements to fly to New York City from Los Angeles.
20:36I was excited.
20:37I was a little nervous, of course.
20:40I had a time and an address to go meet, you know, Miss Maxwell.
20:45I walk in, and the whole place is stunning.
20:50And I was asked to go up the stairs, and at the top of the stairs, there's a butler standing there with full tuxedo with the vest and the coattail, and he's standing there holding a silver tray.
21:05I mean, I kind of laughed to myself a bit because this is not normal.
21:10This is like movie-type stuff.
21:12A few moments later, Miss Maxwell comes out in a white bathrobe.
21:18She was asking me all types of questions about myself, and we spoke about things like our birthdays, you know, hers being the 25th of December, mine being the 26th of December, and what that meant to us growing up.
21:34I spoke about my dad to her, and she spoke about her dad to me.
21:39There was never a disconnect in our conversation, and I just thought, how incredible is this?
21:47Even though I was in this home that was beautiful with this educated woman, successful woman, there was never a time that I felt like I didn't belong there.
22:00I felt like I did belong there.
22:02I felt like I did belong with her.
22:04I felt connected to this woman in a sense that I didn't feel like I was any different from her.
22:12After the massage, she said, I want you to go now meet with my partner, Jeffrey, for another portion of the interview.
22:24And she says to me directly, she said, make sure you give Jeffrey what he wants, because Jeffrey always gets what he wants.
22:32I leave Gilan's townhouse with a sense of accomplishment and confidence, and like, it couldn't have gone any better.
22:48This was going to be my future.
22:51I walked to Jeffrey's home, I was let in, and Jeffrey's like, let's go to my office.
23:04So, I'm sitting there on the couch, and he put his foot up on my leg and asked me for a foot massage.
23:16I didn't know that there was going to be a massage involved, but nonetheless, I start working on his foot.
23:25He's pushing his foot further and further up my leg to the point where it's pressing into my body in very inappropriate ways.
23:32So, I got up, and he's, you know, right behind me, and he assaulted me there.
23:41I took off down the stairs, and I walked out the door.
23:48I didn't look out the whole way.
23:50It's like I could, every seam in the sidewalk, I was just like looking at seam after seam after seam,
23:57and I walked straight back, you know, to where I was staying.
24:02And I sat in that apartment, you know, the remainder of the night until the time that the driver was taking me back to the airport.
24:12And as I got in the car, he, the driver said, oh, we're waiting on someone else.
24:20And, you know, this other girl gets in the car, and she had asked me what I had, was there for.
24:31And she's like, do you think it was weird?
24:34And I didn't respond.
24:36She said, I just want to go home.
24:40And I didn't say a word the entire rest of the way.
24:44Everybody wants to talk about, well, what happened?
24:51How did he abuse you?
24:52What did he do?
24:54And it's not focused on Geelan.
24:56It's focused on him.
24:58And that frustrates me.
25:00I was faced with the absolute betrayal of this woman.
25:07I felt so connected to Geelan in that short amount of time in her home.
25:15The betrayal was just so deep because she got me there.
25:22She got me to the point of abuse.
25:25She groomed me to walk myself to the home of a predator willingly.
25:32She was beyond a cog in the wheel of it.
25:38She facilitated it.
25:40She made the network happen.
25:43I think the idea that, you know, Epstein and Geelan were as rich and glamorous as they were,
25:56people treat them enormously different than any other kind of person who would do something like this.
26:02I definitely encountered, you know, people close to him who were always, like, finding increasingly bizarre ways to try to rationalize, you know, Epstein's behavior.
26:15Jeffrey had a severe case of what's called satiriasis, the male counterpart of infomania.
26:22Yeah.
26:22Which he could not control.
26:24What was his relationship to that?
26:26Probably a lot of men have that for all I know, except very few of them have the money to, let us say, to treat themselves to sex three times a day with young girls.
26:42And if there was only one of them who did it, no one would have noticed, except he made an industry out of it.
26:47And why did he make an industry out of it?
26:49Because Jeffrey was a very, very, very sick man.
26:51So, were you ever around for any instances of these?
26:58No, I never saw him fool around with me.
27:00In fact, Jeffrey was a very, very close friend of mine.
27:03Yeah.
27:04And he shielded me.
27:06I never saw what he did until, finally, I did notice certain things, and that was the end of me having to do with him.
27:12He never invited me to the Isle of Babes.
27:15Okay.
27:16Luckily.
27:16I never really knew who was even there.
27:21Pulling up on the boat to the island, I just remember it being just really magical and so beautiful.
27:34And it's like, wow, how could someone live here?
27:37And it felt kind of special that we were going.
27:42And, of course, there was young, beautiful people there.
27:45I just thought, you know, it's just like a getaway and a fun place to go to.
27:49But when we left there, it just was a place that I never really wanted to return to.
27:57And I just couldn't wait to get, you know, away.
28:01In 1998, there was a job advertised for a management couple for an island in the Caribbean.
28:12And then from our interviews all the way through to the end, there were always women around.
28:17I'm Miles Alexander, and this is Kathy, my wife, for 30-odd years.
28:22I was employed as the island manager, and Kathy was employed as the housekeeping manager.
28:35Mr. Axel did explain that there would be a lot of women around.
28:40She used to refer to it as the bees around the honeypot.
28:44She said, you'll see lots of bees around the honeypot, but I'm the queen bee.
28:49Always remember that.
28:50And we've never forgotten.
28:52We've never forgotten that.
28:53Would you rather look at some fluttergaps?
28:55Why not?
28:56I could sit this side.
28:58I'd like to remember this.
29:00Yeah, that's where we used to live.
29:041999, if you remember, we arrived.
29:06That's at the complex at the top, where the master bedroom down there, the great room,
29:11kitchen and office, and the three little buildings.
29:14We had no real beaches, so we had to create beaches.
29:18And ultimately, we wanted to see a view of another island, so we started digging the mountain away,
29:24taking the whole mountain away so you could see what was called Dog Island at the time.
29:30There's our kitchen, and there's me baking, probably.
29:33Miss Maxwell, as an employer, was very demanding.
29:38She basically took her pound of flesh, eh?
29:40Yeah.
29:41We used to call Hurricane Maxwell, sorry, Miss Maxwell.
29:44She would arrive, and all sorts of tranquility on the island would erupt.
29:49She used to run around, fixing things, making sure everything was perfect for Mr. Epstein.
29:54That was the whole point of her being there, is to make sure Epstein had everything he ever wanted.
30:00We knew there were going to be girls there.
30:02And then one day, I'm told to go and serve tea, and I walked out to the pool with this big tray of tea,
30:07and there's Victoria's Secret model-type people lying around with no clothes on,
30:11because they didn't come down with their costumes.
30:13So I went back to Kathy and I said, yeah, it's your turn.
30:16I'm not doing this.
30:17They'll all be lying there, but next to nothing.
30:20You got quite complacent about it, didn't you?
30:21Yeah, you...
30:22You know, you asked them, what do you do?
30:24I'm a state agent, what do you do?
30:26I'm a model, I'm a...
30:27But they were just there for him, basically.
30:31I don't know.
30:32If you wanted to go swimming, you took the girls with them, they'd go off to the beach.
30:37Yeah, off to the beach.
30:38So they were like companions.
30:39My name is Gretchen Rhodes.
30:52I am a professional singer, and I was doing massage therapy for 20-something years.
31:02I worked on Little St. James from 2001 to 2006.
31:07So this is the first time in 20 years that I have talked about this in a public space.
31:14And in my silence, I was starting to feel physically sick by not acknowledging it.
31:28I met Ms. Maxwell when she came into the Grapevine Salon and Spa,
31:33where I was working as a massage therapist.
31:35She made a beeline towards me when she saw me and asked me if I would want to come and do massage for her.
31:46And I said, we have a receptionist here.
31:49You can go ahead and ask the receptionist to book an appointment for you.
31:54And she said, no, no, no, I don't want to do that.
31:58I want you to come and work for me and handed me her card.
32:03She never came into the spa just looking for an amazing massage.
32:08It was just her looking for something else.
32:18Even though I said no, she came back a couple more times throughout the next couple weeks.
32:24She was firmly persistent, to put it in a very kind way.
32:31I could say hound because it kind of did feel like that as well.
32:35My feelings were saying, you know, like, stay away.
32:39Like, just go about what you're doing.
32:40But my brain was telling me, but look at this person.
32:46She's, you know, very well coiffed.
32:48She's, like, put herself together very well.
32:50She's very well mannered.
32:51She's articulate.
32:52Why would you not want to go along with what she's asking you to do?
33:01When I was first picked up by this boat on St. John to be taken to little St. James, it felt exciting.
33:08It's like, wow, this is so, you know, lifestyles of the rich and famous.
33:14How lucky am I to be able to do this?
33:17How lovely for me.
33:18I was told by Ms. Maxwell that this is a speak-when-spoken-to situation.
33:26Don't ask questions.
33:28If you see anything, you're going to keep it to yourself.
33:31Or hear anything, you're going to keep it to yourself.
33:34And also, like, in a very, like, smile.
33:38And this is how it's going to be.
33:41And so, you know.
33:43We had a nucleus of massage therapists from St. Thomas and St. John.
33:49That used to be, we had to get fetched and bring back.
33:53This Maxwell would be the first person to test the masseuse.
33:57Make sure that the massage that he was due to have would be a good massage.
34:01You know, that type of thing.
34:03Let me try and phrase it so you'd understand.
34:05I think she got into a situation where she had to find massage therapists for him.
34:12And the younger, the better.
34:15And I got asked to find massage therapists.
34:17And they were always too old.
34:19So she had to go and find somebody young.
34:22And I think, in a way, it felt uncomfortable that she was looking for these young massage therapists.
34:29She just, she just made sure that he got his massages.
34:33Come, hello, high water.
34:35She made sure he was happy.
34:41Miles and Kathy were the ones that called me up to do massage.
34:47Sitting in the kitchen with them, waiting.
34:50And then they would get the call to do massage with Ms. Maxwell or with Jeffrey.
34:54Initially, when I first got to Little St. James, I was massaging Ms. Maxwell herself.
35:04And that lasted for three, four months, somewhere in there.
35:11Sometimes, Ms. Maxwell would have me do a tandem massage or teach another girl that was there how to do massage.
35:21And finally, when she decided that I was ready or fit, or I feel like now that I had gotten her trust,
35:38then I was allowed to, allowed to massage Jeffrey himself.
35:45Ms. Maxwell walked me down to his room for the first time, and then again explained whatever happens during the massage,
35:59you keep to yourself.
36:01The massage table was already set up.
36:03He came in.
36:05She took off her shirt.
36:06She took off her bra.
36:07She took off her pants.
36:09I was trying not to look, but it's kind of like all right here, you know, peripheral vision.
36:12And then she got redressed and just left like it was nothing, kind of taken aback by everything.
36:20He just laid down.
36:23And I did a normal massage, just a normal massage.
36:28I don't know why I had that uneasy feeling.
36:32Thinking like, okay, great.
36:34I've like, this is really easy money.
36:36Fantastic for me.
36:37He also had this thing about making people's dreams come true.
36:43He said that was his thing.
36:45He asked me, what's your dream?
36:47What is your passion?
36:49And I said, music.
36:51He's like, okay, great.
36:52He's like, I'll fly you up to New York, and I'll set you up to a couple of meetings with EMI and Universal.
36:58On the way back down, we flew in his private jet with all of these scientists that he was hosting on the island.
37:07Ms. Maxwell was on that plane, and we were taken back to the Caribbean, and I was made to give Jeffrey a massage, where I had to massage his nipples while he masturbated.
37:24It was just like, taken aback, you know, like, what the fuck is happening right now?
37:34What is happening?
37:35Just like, just look away.
37:36You know, just look away.
37:40I just wasn't looking at his face.
37:42I was looking like beyond him, just trying to separate myself or take myself out of my body.
37:54That was my payment for having been flown up to New York and given these opportunities, like, such a high and then just such a low.
38:08It was just this constant kind of roller coaster, and I always asked myself and have asked myself for the last 20 years why I didn't just jump off of the roller coaster.
38:25I don't even, I don't know if I have an answer.
38:34These people made the weirdest things so normal and normalized, and nothing was normal, and it was all horrible and weird.
38:46And then it wasn't, and then it wasn't, and then he was a charming, kind, nice person, and so was she.
38:55Maybe not kind.
38:56There was never a kind look behind her eye.
38:59It, just a charming, ever so slightly calculated one.
39:04She led me into that situation, knowing full well that it's not a normal situation to put somebody else, but doing it anyway.
39:18To me, she is the reason that I was abused.
39:23These allegations in the press of women trying to escape the island, swim away from the island, come crying to Kathy and myself in the kitchen to say,
39:36please help us, we need to get off the island.
39:38My passports have been stolen or taken away from us.
39:43None of that happened.
39:44None of those girls ever came in crying.
39:46I'm done.
39:46The only person who ever cried was somebody who came to give him a massage and just said, look, I want to go home, and that was all.
39:58But I don't know what happened in the room.
40:01People left the island very suddenly, yes.
40:04There could have been women that had been assaulted or hurt.
40:10We called, I wouldn't go down that road, because we've got no evidence of what's happening.
40:14No, so we, but people left in Cambria, and so, yeah, maybe I'll be saying.
40:20I wouldn't even go down that road, because we can't say for sure.
40:23I've never saw anybody leave the island.
40:26In tears.
40:26In tears.
40:29Where there's smoke, there is fire.
40:31But we didn't see it, and we weren't involved with any of it.
40:35She was trying to please the man at her detriment.
40:39That's basically what she did.
40:41She wanted to make sure he was happy, whether she did it illegally or whatever.
40:49It's very easy to bury one's head in the sand.
40:52I've done it for the last 20 years of not acknowledging.
40:57I didn't feel like I could tell anybody because I wasn't worthy enough to tell anybody.
41:01But I honestly think that it was totally conceivable that Miles and Kathy didn't know what was happening,
41:10because I didn't know anything that was happening with anybody else.
41:13Everything was kept behind closed doors.
41:15I think that I was very lost for a long time.
41:27And I've only just really started to deal with it all.
41:32I've kept it all secret for 20 years.
41:3620 years.
41:3720 years.
41:3720 years.
41:3720 years.
41:45Epstein bought this island in the U.S. Virgin Islands.
41:51And he built on that island a camp for sex trafficking.
41:58A sex trafficking palace, if you will.
42:03The gold dome with places scattered along the beach.
42:08And there were always a lot of young girls there.
42:15Of the slightly more than a dozen women that we represent,
42:21about half of them probably were on the island.
42:26It was a place where he would go to abuse young girls.
42:34But it was also a place where he would entertain and cultivate rich and powerful and politically connected figures.
42:50We had a lot of guests that came to the island at the invitation of Mr. Epstein.
42:54Whether they were industrialists, business people, celebrity type people, royalty.
43:01Prince Andrew was there.
43:04He came to the island a few times.
43:06The first time was by himself.
43:09And then twice with Miss Maxwell.
43:11They were very good friends.
43:12They were very good friends.
43:13You could see it.
43:14They had an absolute ball.
43:14They used to laugh and enjoy themselves.
43:17Go swimming, go playing on the jet skis, do all sorts of things.
43:21Tease each other.
43:22Yeah.
43:23Have fun.
43:26And, you know, it was loud.
43:27We could hear it.
43:29It was nothing fun.
43:30I mean, they just enjoyed themselves, right?
43:32And he was so relaxed.
43:33He'd just open the door to the kitchen and come in and say, right, what can we eat?
43:37It was like a home when he was, yeah.
43:40No, it was, he was...
43:41I'd say their relationship was really close.
43:43Yeah, they were really close.
43:45You're right.
43:46And would Prince Andrew get massages as well?
43:51I don't think so.
43:52I'm pretty.
43:52I can't remember.
43:53You're going to me.
43:54No.
43:55Be honest with you, I can't.
43:57When he was on his own, no.
43:58No, when he was on his own, no.
43:59I don't think he did.
44:03But you never know because...
44:04We don't know what, you know.
44:06We weren't privileged to see any of the other side of Mr. Epstein, so if you want to say
44:15it like that.
44:15Yeah.
44:16I don't know how to say it.
44:17It stays inside.
44:18It stays inside.
44:19Yeah.
44:19I saw Ghislaine with Prince Andrew at Ascot, in the royal enclosure.
44:35I used to go to Ascot every year.
44:38She was almost deferring to him and looking at him as though he was the most important
44:43person there.
44:45I called over to Ghislaine.
44:47Hi, Ghislaine.
44:48It's me.
44:49Nothing.
44:50Complete blank.
44:51She was just so focused on Prince Andrew that nobody else mattered.
44:57She decided that there were bigger fish in her pond than in my little pond, so she decided
45:04probably to ignore me.
45:06I thought, hmm, that's not very nice to be treated that way, especially after the way
45:12that I used to look after her.
45:16I was disappointed.
45:24I definitely saw that she was a powerful woman in society.
45:28She was amongst all the celebrities and very important people on the social scene in New
45:33York.
45:35The first time I met Ghislaine was at a dinner party at Jeffrey Epstein's home on the Upper
45:41East Side.
45:42She had that little sparkle in her eye, so your kind of, like, lesbian thing goes up
45:49where you're like, hmm, about her.
45:52There were tons of older men there that night, and she was the only, like, lady among them.
45:59I saw a lot of younger women coming and going that night.
46:02I believe all over 18.
46:04They were all introduced to Ghislaine if they didn't know her and introduced to the other
46:09men there.
46:10A few weeks or months later, I was hanging out with another group of girlfriends.
46:16We went to a party in Soho.
46:18Naomi Campbell was there, Woody Harrelson, and some other celebrities.
46:21And Ghislaine was there that night with Mick Jagger.
46:24I said hello to Ghislaine, and she introduced me and my girlfriends to Mick Jagger that night.
46:29So Jeffrey is the one, a few days after, who had called me to meet with Mick Jagger.
46:38Like, he was having a dinner, and that Mick had requested that myself and some girlfriends, the same girlfriends, would go meet him for dinner.
46:46And I had said, well, what does he want?
46:49He was, well, you know.
46:51He said, oh, well, Ghislaine is going to be there.
46:53And he said that she was his best friend, and that he trusted her.
46:57And I said, well, I don't really trust her.
47:00She's a little creepy.
47:01I didn't think anything of their odd relationship, because the modeling and acting world has a mist of sexuality all throughout it.
47:15When you are in that business, you deal with those kinds of things.
47:19After that, I started feeling, well, I'm not really your friend, you know, if you're pushing me to go meet with these older men.
47:27And as you, like, witness their relationship, and as your friends get to know them, then you start to realize she's 100% in it as much as he is.
47:39So I started to think about Jeffrey in a different way during that time, and she was around with him a lot.
47:47You cut off all ties.
47:50And it was, you know, a good time to do so, because that's when everything was unraveling for Ghislaine and Jeffrey.
47:58Having the woman present makes it seem like, oh, okay, well, nothing super bad is going to happen to me, because she's here.
48:06You know?
48:07I think that was a very confusing thing, always having her there.
48:13I don't think he could have had the same web of operation that was going on without this, you know, beautiful woman helping him.
48:21Looking back and over the years, I think there were signs that things were happening, and it reminds me, there's a great line in Edith Wharton in her novel, The Age of Innocence.
48:34The main character says, does nobody want to know the truth here?
48:40What she's shot by is how much people will continue and not notice things they don't want to see.
48:48This, to me, was an equivalent.
48:52Does nobody around here want to know the truth?
48:55And the fact is probably not.
48:58Not if the party is good.
48:59We'll be right back to it.
49:29Transcription by CastingWords
49:59Transcription by CastingWords
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