00:00I have with me Air Marshal Anil Chokra. He's a highly distinguished and decorated veteran of
00:15the Indian Air Force. He has an illustrious career behind him of over four decades. He was
00:20the flying instructor and also the test pilot. He was also among the pilots in the first patch
00:26which actually went to France to get a training on Mirage aircraft. He came back and he also gave
00:31training to the other pilots. So, he also served as a Director General at the Centre for Air Power
00:36Studies in New Delhi. Thank you so much Air Marshal Chokra for speaking with Asianet News.
00:41Thank you Hina. Always a pleasure to join and I know it has been an extremely tragic, unfortunate
00:49accident in a foreign soil with the indigenous aircraft single engine fighter. The program
00:54which was going extremely well till now had a high safety record. The pilot was a very,
01:00very professional pilot who had been specially selected, trained and had practiced aerobatic
01:08maneuvers and displayed profile for many, many times and we lost a brave soldier. Our condolences
01:16and salute to the family. As an Indian, this is very disgusting and very disheartening for me
01:20that a lot of people and most of them Pakistani handles are actually exploiting this tragic incident
01:27which happened yesterday at the Dubai air show and they are talking about how Tejas crashed and
01:32trying to hurt the credibility of the aircraft. Now, I want to talk about the JF-17. This is one
01:39aircraft which is co-built by China's Chengdu and Pakistan but this is the same aircraft which actually
01:46crashed five times and Tejas crashed just two times. How can then people from Pakistan are actually
01:52playing out this disinformation campaign for Tejas? Yeah, you know, we can expect anything of this
01:58kind from Pakistan, the adversary nation. They have just had a beating from Indian Air Force in
02:04North Sindhur. Nearly 20% of the Pakistan Air Force was destroyed and the capabilities have been sent
02:12backwards. So, I do not, you know, I'm not very concerned about what Pakistani handles are saying.
02:20Mind you, it's a very small minuscule, you know, numbers who are talking like this. There have been
02:26a few, very few, very mature comments by some of the Pakistani Air Force pilots, fighter pilots too.
02:33But let us look at the safety records. You know, as you said rightly, firstly, I must tell you that Tejas is a
02:38different class of aircraft. You know, vis-a-vis the JF-17, JF-17, where basically, if you know,
02:45if you look at the design very closely, it's a MiG-29, F-16 mixed which has been done by the Chinese.
02:52Everything has been done by the Chinese. Of course, it's a joint project which is now
02:57around 50% of the airframe etc. Everything is being made in Pakistan. But the basic technology,
03:04the engine, the radar, everything is from outside. So, therefore, JF-17, yes, they have been able to
03:10build it in large numbers. It was possible mainly because of China's direct support and they have
03:17close to 150 aircraft. Also, two countries, Myanmar and Nigeria have bought it and I think Azerbaijan
03:23is going to buy it next. Whereas, if you look at LCA, yes, numbers built are small. You know,
03:29we are also dependent for the engine on the Americans, for the GE 404 engine. But overall,
03:36the aircraft is a 4.5 generation, certainly 4 plus generation, much ahead of the JF-17.
03:44And as you rightly mentioned, safety records, yes, they have lost 5 or 6 JF-17. This is our second
03:51accident. Our first accident was about 20 months back when we lost LCA in state and level flight,
03:59because of our technical problem. And one of the pumps had failed. And this is the first time it has
04:05been, you know, the aircraft has an accident in air displays. So, now, like air displays are very
04:13risky profiles, world over. It's not the first time. If you see in the last 60-70 years, since the
04:21fighters have been doing displays, every third, fourth year, there's been some crash somewhere.
04:26And because during the display, you're trying to fly the aircraft to the edge of the envelope.
04:33And we are also flying it very close to the ground. You're flying it high Gs. You're also flying to
04:38impress the customers who will possibly buy this aircraft from you. Yes. So, in that context, it is,
04:46you know, unfortunate that the LCA crash has taken place in Dubai, where there are some prospective
04:52customers who were looking at the aircraft. But certainly, LCA has had a much cleaner record.
04:58LCA is a more modern aircraft. Once all the weapons are fully integrated, electronic warfare suit is
05:06integrated, we'll have the LCA Mark 1A, which will be joining the Air Force shortly. Yes, we are behind
05:12schedule because there was a delay of the GE 404 engine supply. Also, there were some integration delays.
05:19But early next year, we should be having these in the Scotland. I must also mention that LCA Mark 1A,
05:26the production numbers are being increased. A third line has been set up at Narsik. Two lines were
05:32already existing in Bangalore. Finally, we will be producing close to 24 aircraft. Indian Air Force is
05:38very eagerly waiting for the LCA Mark 1A to join. And this will be a position at the front line basis
05:45in Rajasthan and Punjab. And one of the theories which is circulating is how it was a very low altitude
05:52for the pilot to actually pull out of that barrel roll and then later on the negative G maneuver that
05:57he was trying to carry out. What do you have to say? What is your perspective? Do you think that it was
06:01because of the low height that the tragic crash took place? You know, I must tell you, Hina, that,
06:08you know, much better videos are now available because, you know, during an air show, not only
06:14are these their official videographers, but a large number of private players, media houses who are
06:20trying to record and many of them have got high definition cameras. It is thus possible to have a very
06:26close look at all the maneuvers that the pilot was carrying out. And I have myself seen some other
06:32videos, but I still maintain my position that we are on, we have just, it's been a little over 24
06:40hours and conjecturing is very, very difficult. Even the best of the professionals, the ones like me who
06:46have, you know, I have been the flying display director at Aero India 2003. I watched these displays very,
06:54very, very closely. But one should be very, very careful when you make comments. More so when the person
07:01who has to defend himself or be answerable is not there anymore. And so, but still I can, yeah, we all have
07:11seen. See, the displays for all aeroplanes are at very low altitude. But in this case, we all saw that he did
07:18an outside turn where there is a negative G involved. Thereafter, he had to do a repositioning
07:26turn. Some people are conjecturing that whether he should have turned right or left during the
07:31repositioning turn. We do not know. But he did turn and he did a close to, you know, I would say,
07:41one 200 degree turn when he was trying to reposition. In that downward maneuver, obviously,
07:50he has either run out of height. Why he has run out of height? Why the maneuver was not tight enough?
07:56We do not know. Was there a technical problem? Was there a control problem? Was there an engine
08:02thrust reduction? We really do not know. So, yes, from the video, you can make out that his downward
08:09maneuver maneuver. The aircraft's nose is not rotating fast enough. For what reason, we do not
08:14know. Aircraft has finally meshed into the ground and there was a considerable rate of descent still
08:23there. The aircraft has hit the ground with fairly high speed. It's difficult to make out whether his
08:30afterburner was on or not. And immediately after hitting the ground, there has been a ball of fire and
08:37then dust because we are in a desert airfield. So, this has been the sequence of events.
08:43You know, anything can happen. Court of inquiry normally does a very fine
08:48tooth comb. They go through every, every detail. Of course, the FDR has been the flight data recorder
08:54has been retrieved immediately and it is already in the custody of the Indian Air Force. The inquiry team
09:02has the code of inquiry has already been set up. Best of the professionals will be put on the job.
09:07They will have technical members. They will have a member from HAN, who is the producer of this aircraft
09:13and then greater details will come out. You know, the flight data recorder records a large number of
09:20parameters in decimals of seconds. And therefore, the same will be played correlated with the videos
09:28that the court of inquiry team will get from the best of the professional videos. And then they will
09:33play the two together. There are special computers for debrief on which the FDR will be played along
09:40with the videos. And then we will come to know step by step what are the control positions? What is the
09:47status of the engine? What was the, you know, G that the aircraft was pulling? What was its altitude?
09:52All that will come out during the court of inquiry. Yes. How do you assess the performance of GEF 404?
09:59Because these are imported engines, which we are using for our indigenous fighter aircraft.
10:04You know, GE 404 is a proven tested engine. They do not doubt about the quality of the engine.
10:10The GE is a big engine manufacturer, big company, and they have produced some very, very fine engines,
10:15including large engines for airliners like the 777. They have GE 90X, huge, the entry of engines.
10:25The Americans are flying GE engines on many fighter and transport aircraft. So, therefore,
10:30there is no question directly about the engine design. But yes, there can be a technical failure
10:36with anything. You know, any part of the aircraft can have a technical failure. Mind you, when the aircraft
10:41is sent for a flight, the aircraft is 100 percent serviceable. Even if it was the MiG-21, which had
10:48flown in the Indian Air Force for more than 60 years, every time it flew, it was 100 percent serviceable.
10:53LCA is a relatively modern aircraft. It has got much more modern subsystems, technical subsystems.
11:00And therefore, yes, the risk of having a technical failure reduces, but it cannot be eliminated.
11:07But engine, I want to show you, the engine is a good engine. That's why we have chosen it. It has cost us
11:13a lot of money. And we have not only chosen it, we have also chosen the GE 414 for our LCA Mark II.
11:22So, a lot of homework goes on before you select an engine. So, I don't see that an issue. Some people
11:29in the media have commented that, you know, the thrust weight ratio of the aircraft, you know,
11:34all that is, we have, all this analysis has been done by the Air Force before. They finally selected
11:40the engine for LCA Mark I and for Mark Ia. And therefore, these are not issues. These are all
11:49conjectures being thrown up by, sometimes even by novices.
11:53Amrashal Chopra, one of the experts I've heard saying that weather could also be at play. And
12:00actually that expert was pointing out at the haze visible in the one of the videos. Now, I want to
12:05know from you because you have been a test pilot yourself. I want to know from you when a test
12:10pilot actually boards an aircraft to go ahead and carry out all of these maneuvers. Does he know about
12:16the parameters of the weather conditions which are there at that particular point of time?
12:21You know, I must mention that the weather was fairly, not fairly, very good for a display. You know,
12:29when people do displays in Europe, in France and, you know, in UK and even in Russia sometimes,
12:37they are often clouding throughout the year. And there are different profiles which have been made by
12:43the display pilots, including Surya Kiran and, you know, various other display teams. They have
12:52different profiles made out for getting to weather. Now, what could be the weather? One could be the
12:56clouds. There were no clouds. We all saw the videos. Next is lower visibility than normal. Now, we could see
13:03the LCA through and through the maneuvers. You know, so therefore, and mind you, LCA's maneuvers are not
13:11as tight as Su-57s or Su-30 MKI's. So, therefore, if we could see the aircraft all the time through and
13:20through the maneuvers, that means visibility was very good. In any case, you know, before the display is
13:26decided every morning, there's a very, very detailed briefing by the flying display director who briefs
13:32because there are a variety of types of aeroplanes which are going to fly. And he goes into details
13:37about the weather in the morning and through the day, whatever is predicted and the weather is
13:41available online to all the pilots all the time so that they can update themselves. A final call is,
13:48of course, of the operator, but the flying display director, he finds the visibility or any
13:54component of the weather is not good enough. He has the right to veto the display, but that was not
14:00the case in this particular incident. The weather was very good. We all have flown in much worse
14:08visibility conditions than what was yesterday. Marshall Chopra, do you think that spatial
14:15or disorientation could also be one of the factors if there is a complete analysis of FDR and if the
14:20Court of Inquiry does not point towards any sort of technical fault in the engine or fly-by-wire system,
14:27do you think that spatial disorientation is something that can be looked at?
14:31Yeah, it will be looked at, not can be because, you know, see, there is a list of more than a hundred
14:37things that the Court of Inquiry will look at. Well, technically, it will look at the serviceability,
14:42this past serviceability, any snags that the aircraft has had in the past, in addition to the every,
14:48very great detail of FDR analysis that they will do. They will look at sabotage, they will look at
14:53hydraulic and fuel samples that would have been put on the aircraft so that make sure that there was
14:59nothing wrong with those because either of them can have impact on flight and they will be, you know,
15:06the pilot's medical status, his reports, his medical history, all that is looked at by the spatial
15:12disorientation is possible. You know, you are doing a 3D maneuver, you know, in the car when you are
15:18driving, you are either turning left or right or accelerating, but here you are also going up and
15:23down and there are different forces. Mind you, the aircraft is operating at very high G's and that
15:30the pilot has just done a negative G maneuver. In a negative G maneuver, the blood goes from bottom to
15:35up towards your head, whereas in positive IG, it goes from head to towards your legs. So, anything is
15:42possible, but I said, I am just trying to highlight the various things that can happen, but what has
15:48actually happened will only be known from the Court of Enquiry, yes. Do you think that it's time for
15:53India to push ahead with the indigenous manufacturing of engines? Undoubtedly, you know, there were some
16:01people, again, who made social media comments to say, you know, about the program itself, that the
16:08program itself will get affected. Nothing like that is going to happen. We are the nation is committed to
16:13LCA Markman. This is the flagship program for Atam Nirbharta in defense in India. LCA has to succeed.
16:23The Mark 1A and Mark 2 have come out to come out quickly. The AMCA has to succeed if we want to sit
16:30on the global high table of defense production. So, there is no doubt about the important components
16:37in the aircraft. The radar is already being made by us. Electronic warfare suit we are already making.
16:43The major component, ejection seats, there is no hurry to make. The ejection seat, you know, numbers required
16:49a few and we can always buy it from outside. But engine is an important part of the aircraft. We know
16:57that only the Western countries have been making engines. And of course, Russians, Chinese were also
17:02struggling for 20 years. The amount of money they have pumped in. They are now getting to a point of
17:08being able to have their own engine, even though it might have been because through reverse engineering of
17:13Russian engines. But in India, this has been the talk of the town. You know, for some time, the
17:21Prime Minister himself has taken a call. It's going to cost a lot of money. Most probably with Safran of
17:28France, we are going to do a joint work between DRDO and Safran. They will make an engine which will have
17:34intellectual property rights of the Indian government. And that engine will ultimately power the AMCA,
17:41that is the fifth generation aircraft. So therefore, engine is very, very crucial. And we have to,
17:47you know, quickly get to start our research and development of the engine.
17:53Hey, Marshall Chopra, thank you so much for your robust commentary on this subject. And thank you for
17:58speaking with Adrian and Humes.
