In this exclusive interview, Air Marshal Anil Chopra (Retd.) addresses and debunks prevalent theories surrounding the tragic Tejas crash at the Dubai Airshow. He provides expert insights into the capabilities of the Tejas fighter jet, the role of its engine, and if weather conditions could have played a role. Understand the complexities of test flying, the challenges of flying demos, and what the investigation could reveal about this unfortunate incident.
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#Infocus #TejasCrash #AirMarshalAnilChopra #TejasCapabilities #DubaiAirshow #IndianAirForce #FlightSafety #Aerospace #India
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NewsTranscript
00:00I have with me Air Marshal Anil Chokra. He's a highly distinguished and decorated veteran of
00:15the Indian Air Force. He has an illustrious career behind him of over four decades. He was
00:20the flying instructor and also the test pilot. He was also among the pilots in the first patch
00:26which actually went to France to get a training on Mirage aircraft. He came back and he also gave
00:31training to the other pilots. So, he also served as a Director General at the Centre for Air Power
00:36Studies in New Delhi. Thank you so much Air Marshal Chokra for speaking with Asianet News.
00:41Thank you Hina. Always a pleasure to join and I know it has been an extremely tragic, unfortunate
00:49accident in a foreign soil with the indigenous aircraft single engine fighter. The program
00:54which was going extremely well till now had a high safety record. The pilot was a very,
01:00very professional pilot who had been specially selected, trained and had practiced aerobatic
01:08maneuvers and displayed profile for many, many times and we lost a brave soldier. Our condolences
01:16and salute to the family. As an Indian, this is very disgusting and very disheartening for me
01:20that a lot of people and most of them Pakistani handles are actually exploiting this tragic incident
01:27which happened yesterday at the Dubai air show and they are talking about how Tejas crashed and
01:32trying to hurt the credibility of the aircraft. Now, I want to talk about the JF-17. This is one
01:39aircraft which is co-built by China's Chengdu and Pakistan but this is the same aircraft which actually
01:46crashed five times and Tejas crashed just two times. How can then people from Pakistan are actually
01:52playing out this disinformation campaign for Tejas? Yeah, you know, we can expect anything of this
01:58kind from Pakistan, the adversary nation. They have just had a beating from Indian Air Force in
02:04North Sindhur. Nearly 20% of the Pakistan Air Force was destroyed and the capabilities have been sent
02:12backwards. So, I do not, you know, I'm not very concerned about what Pakistani handles are saying.
02:20Mind you, it's a very small minuscule, you know, numbers who are talking like this. There have been
02:26a few, very few, very mature comments by some of the Pakistani Air Force pilots, fighter pilots too.
02:33But let us look at the safety records. You know, as you said rightly, firstly, I must tell you that Tejas is a
02:38different class of aircraft. You know, vis-a-vis the JF-17, JF-17, where basically, if you know,
02:45if you look at the design very closely, it's a MiG-29, F-16 mixed which has been done by the Chinese.
02:52Everything has been done by the Chinese. Of course, it's a joint project which is now
02:57around 50% of the airframe etc. Everything is being made in Pakistan. But the basic technology,
03:04the engine, the radar, everything is from outside. So, therefore, JF-17, yes, they have been able to
03:10build it in large numbers. It was possible mainly because of China's direct support and they have
03:17close to 150 aircraft. Also, two countries, Myanmar and Nigeria have bought it and I think Azerbaijan
03:23is going to buy it next. Whereas, if you look at LCA, yes, numbers built are small. You know,
03:29we are also dependent for the engine on the Americans, for the GE 404 engine. But overall,
03:36the aircraft is a 4.5 generation, certainly 4 plus generation, much ahead of the JF-17.
03:44And as you rightly mentioned, safety records, yes, they have lost 5 or 6 JF-17. This is our second
03:51accident. Our first accident was about 20 months back when we lost LCA in state and level flight,
03:59because of our technical problem. And one of the pumps had failed. And this is the first time it has
04:05been, you know, the aircraft has an accident in air displays. So, now, like air displays are very
04:13risky profiles, world over. It's not the first time. If you see in the last 60-70 years, since the
04:21fighters have been doing displays, every third, fourth year, there's been some crash somewhere.
04:26And because during the display, you're trying to fly the aircraft to the edge of the envelope.
04:33And we are also flying it very close to the ground. You're flying it high Gs. You're also flying to
04:38impress the customers who will possibly buy this aircraft from you. Yes. So, in that context, it is,
04:46you know, unfortunate that the LCA crash has taken place in Dubai, where there are some prospective
04:52customers who were looking at the aircraft. But certainly, LCA has had a much cleaner record.
04:58LCA is a more modern aircraft. Once all the weapons are fully integrated, electronic warfare suit is
05:06integrated, we'll have the LCA Mark 1A, which will be joining the Air Force shortly. Yes, we are behind
05:12schedule because there was a delay of the GE 404 engine supply. Also, there were some integration delays.
05:19But early next year, we should be having these in the Scotland. I must also mention that LCA Mark 1A,
05:26the production numbers are being increased. A third line has been set up at Narsik. Two lines were
05:32already existing in Bangalore. Finally, we will be producing close to 24 aircraft. Indian Air Force is
05:38very eagerly waiting for the LCA Mark 1A to join. And this will be a position at the front line basis
05:45in Rajasthan and Punjab. And one of the theories which is circulating is how it was a very low altitude
05:52for the pilot to actually pull out of that barrel roll and then later on the negative G maneuver that
05:57he was trying to carry out. What do you have to say? What is your perspective? Do you think that it was
06:01because of the low height that the tragic crash took place? You know, I must tell you, Hina, that,
06:08you know, much better videos are now available because, you know, during an air show, not only
06:14are these their official videographers, but a large number of private players, media houses who are
06:20trying to record and many of them have got high definition cameras. It is thus possible to have a very
06:26close look at all the maneuvers that the pilot was carrying out. And I have myself seen some other
06:32videos, but I still maintain my position that we are on, we have just, it's been a little over 24
06:40hours and conjecturing is very, very difficult. Even the best of the professionals, the ones like me who
06:46have, you know, I have been the flying display director at Aero India 2003. I watched these displays very,
06:54very, very closely. But one should be very, very careful when you make comments. More so when the person
07:01who has to defend himself or be answerable is not there anymore. And so, but still I can, yeah, we all have
07:11seen. See, the displays for all aeroplanes are at very low altitude. But in this case, we all saw that he did
07:18an outside turn where there is a negative G involved. Thereafter, he had to do a repositioning
07:26turn. Some people are conjecturing that whether he should have turned right or left during the
07:31repositioning turn. We do not know. But he did turn and he did a close to, you know, I would say,
07:41one 200 degree turn when he was trying to reposition. In that downward maneuver, obviously,
07:50he has either run out of height. Why he has run out of height? Why the maneuver was not tight enough?
07:56We do not know. Was there a technical problem? Was there a control problem? Was there an engine
08:02thrust reduction? We really do not know. So, yes, from the video, you can make out that his downward
08:09maneuver maneuver. The aircraft's nose is not rotating fast enough. For what reason, we do not
08:14know. Aircraft has finally meshed into the ground and there was a considerable rate of descent still
08:23there. The aircraft has hit the ground with fairly high speed. It's difficult to make out whether his
08:30afterburner was on or not. And immediately after hitting the ground, there has been a ball of fire and
08:37then dust because we are in a desert airfield. So, this has been the sequence of events.
08:43You know, anything can happen. Court of inquiry normally does a very fine
08:48tooth comb. They go through every, every detail. Of course, the FDR has been the flight data recorder
08:54has been retrieved immediately and it is already in the custody of the Indian Air Force. The inquiry team
09:02has the code of inquiry has already been set up. Best of the professionals will be put on the job.
09:07They will have technical members. They will have a member from HAN, who is the producer of this aircraft
09:13and then greater details will come out. You know, the flight data recorder records a large number of
09:20parameters in decimals of seconds. And therefore, the same will be played correlated with the videos
09:28that the court of inquiry team will get from the best of the professional videos. And then they will
09:33play the two together. There are special computers for debrief on which the FDR will be played along
09:40with the videos. And then we will come to know step by step what are the control positions? What is the
09:47status of the engine? What was the, you know, G that the aircraft was pulling? What was its altitude?
09:52All that will come out during the court of inquiry. Yes. How do you assess the performance of GEF 404?
09:59Because these are imported engines, which we are using for our indigenous fighter aircraft.
10:04You know, GE 404 is a proven tested engine. They do not doubt about the quality of the engine.
10:10The GE is a big engine manufacturer, big company, and they have produced some very, very fine engines,
10:15including large engines for airliners like the 777. They have GE 90X, huge, the entry of engines.
10:25The Americans are flying GE engines on many fighter and transport aircraft. So, therefore,
10:30there is no question directly about the engine design. But yes, there can be a technical failure
10:36with anything. You know, any part of the aircraft can have a technical failure. Mind you, when the aircraft
10:41is sent for a flight, the aircraft is 100 percent serviceable. Even if it was the MiG-21, which had
10:48flown in the Indian Air Force for more than 60 years, every time it flew, it was 100 percent serviceable.
10:53LCA is a relatively modern aircraft. It has got much more modern subsystems, technical subsystems.
11:00And therefore, yes, the risk of having a technical failure reduces, but it cannot be eliminated.
11:07But engine, I want to show you, the engine is a good engine. That's why we have chosen it. It has cost us
11:13a lot of money. And we have not only chosen it, we have also chosen the GE 414 for our LCA Mark II.
11:22So, a lot of homework goes on before you select an engine. So, I don't see that an issue. Some people
11:29in the media have commented that, you know, the thrust weight ratio of the aircraft, you know,
11:34all that is, we have, all this analysis has been done by the Air Force before. They finally selected
11:40the engine for LCA Mark I and for Mark Ia. And therefore, these are not issues. These are all
11:49conjectures being thrown up by, sometimes even by novices.
11:53Amrashal Chopra, one of the experts I've heard saying that weather could also be at play. And
12:00actually that expert was pointing out at the haze visible in the one of the videos. Now, I want to
12:05know from you because you have been a test pilot yourself. I want to know from you when a test
12:10pilot actually boards an aircraft to go ahead and carry out all of these maneuvers. Does he know about
12:16the parameters of the weather conditions which are there at that particular point of time?
12:21You know, I must mention that the weather was fairly, not fairly, very good for a display. You know,
12:29when people do displays in Europe, in France and, you know, in UK and even in Russia sometimes,
12:37they are often clouding throughout the year. And there are different profiles which have been made by
12:43the display pilots, including Surya Kiran and, you know, various other display teams. They have
12:52different profiles made out for getting to weather. Now, what could be the weather? One could be the
12:56clouds. There were no clouds. We all saw the videos. Next is lower visibility than normal. Now, we could see
13:03the LCA through and through the maneuvers. You know, so therefore, and mind you, LCA's maneuvers are not
13:11as tight as Su-57s or Su-30 MKI's. So, therefore, if we could see the aircraft all the time through and
13:20through the maneuvers, that means visibility was very good. In any case, you know, before the display is
13:26decided every morning, there's a very, very detailed briefing by the flying display director who briefs
13:32because there are a variety of types of aeroplanes which are going to fly. And he goes into details
13:37about the weather in the morning and through the day, whatever is predicted and the weather is
13:41available online to all the pilots all the time so that they can update themselves. A final call is,
13:48of course, of the operator, but the flying display director, he finds the visibility or any
13:54component of the weather is not good enough. He has the right to veto the display, but that was not
14:00the case in this particular incident. The weather was very good. We all have flown in much worse
14:08visibility conditions than what was yesterday. Marshall Chopra, do you think that spatial
14:15or disorientation could also be one of the factors if there is a complete analysis of FDR and if the
14:20Court of Inquiry does not point towards any sort of technical fault in the engine or fly-by-wire system,
14:27do you think that spatial disorientation is something that can be looked at?
14:31Yeah, it will be looked at, not can be because, you know, see, there is a list of more than a hundred
14:37things that the Court of Inquiry will look at. Well, technically, it will look at the serviceability,
14:42this past serviceability, any snags that the aircraft has had in the past, in addition to the every,
14:48very great detail of FDR analysis that they will do. They will look at sabotage, they will look at
14:53hydraulic and fuel samples that would have been put on the aircraft so that make sure that there was
14:59nothing wrong with those because either of them can have impact on flight and they will be, you know,
15:06the pilot's medical status, his reports, his medical history, all that is looked at by the spatial
15:12disorientation is possible. You know, you are doing a 3D maneuver, you know, in the car when you are
15:18driving, you are either turning left or right or accelerating, but here you are also going up and
15:23down and there are different forces. Mind you, the aircraft is operating at very high G's and that
15:30the pilot has just done a negative G maneuver. In a negative G maneuver, the blood goes from bottom to
15:35up towards your head, whereas in positive IG, it goes from head to towards your legs. So, anything is
15:42possible, but I said, I am just trying to highlight the various things that can happen, but what has
15:48actually happened will only be known from the Court of Enquiry, yes. Do you think that it's time for
15:53India to push ahead with the indigenous manufacturing of engines? Undoubtedly, you know, there were some
16:01people, again, who made social media comments to say, you know, about the program itself, that the
16:08program itself will get affected. Nothing like that is going to happen. We are the nation is committed to
16:13LCA Markman. This is the flagship program for Atam Nirbharta in defense in India. LCA has to succeed.
16:23The Mark 1A and Mark 2 have come out to come out quickly. The AMCA has to succeed if we want to sit
16:30on the global high table of defense production. So, there is no doubt about the important components
16:37in the aircraft. The radar is already being made by us. Electronic warfare suit we are already making.
16:43The major component, ejection seats, there is no hurry to make. The ejection seat, you know, numbers required
16:49a few and we can always buy it from outside. But engine is an important part of the aircraft. We know
16:57that only the Western countries have been making engines. And of course, Russians, Chinese were also
17:02struggling for 20 years. The amount of money they have pumped in. They are now getting to a point of
17:08being able to have their own engine, even though it might have been because through reverse engineering of
17:13Russian engines. But in India, this has been the talk of the town. You know, for some time, the
17:21Prime Minister himself has taken a call. It's going to cost a lot of money. Most probably with Safran of
17:28France, we are going to do a joint work between DRDO and Safran. They will make an engine which will have
17:34intellectual property rights of the Indian government. And that engine will ultimately power the AMCA,
17:41that is the fifth generation aircraft. So therefore, engine is very, very crucial. And we have to,
17:47you know, quickly get to start our research and development of the engine.
17:53Hey, Marshall Chopra, thank you so much for your robust commentary on this subject. And thank you for
17:58speaking with Adrian and Humes.
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