At Jaipur Literature Festival 2026, curators Debra Diamond, Sonya Rhie Mace, and cultural advisor Pramod Kumar KG join Sanjoy K. Roy to explore how museums preserve objects, archives, and narratives—shaping how history is remembered.
#JaipurLiteratureFestival2026 #JLF2026 #Museums #ArtHistory #CulturalHeritage #Archives #Curators #Smithsonian #IndianArt #History
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#JaipurLiteratureFestival2026 #JLF2026 #Museums #ArtHistory #CulturalHeritage #Archives #Curators #Smithsonian #IndianArt #History
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NewsTranscript
00:00Good morning. It's the last day at the Jaipur Luricha festival. The crowds are behind us.
00:11The weekend is over. We're already breathing a little lightly. And what better way than to
00:18dive deep into the ideas of how stories travel. In the way that many of you have traveled to
00:25come out here, absorb the culture and tradition and craft practices and everything that we see
00:32around us, plus the amazing built heritage that Jaipur has to offer. We want to look at why museums
00:42today are relevant, if at all, in the age of the super internet, AI, grok and everything, and Google
00:52arts, where you can actually go online and check out museum collections. Do we actually still need
00:59to go to museums? Is there another model? And the importance of museums to record history or
01:07the way governments perhaps want history to be known in new narratives. We have an amazing panel
01:16here. So I'm going to start pretty much with Deborah in no real order. Deborah, the Smithsonian
01:23is, you know, the place that we all go to. Anybody who goes to America, certainly Washington,
01:30it's a must go to place. And I don't have the statistics of how many people from India travel
01:37to Washington and therefore go to the Smithsonian. But I suspect it's a very, very large number,
01:43certainly more than the Indians who go to any museum here in India. Let me ask you, the
01:51Smithsonian is not just one museum. I think it's 16 or 17 or 18 museums, including the museums
02:01of Africa or the Africa History Museum, whatever it's called. Tell us a little bit about the background
02:07of the Smithsonian. How did it begin? And what its relevance is today in the telling of not just
02:15the history of the world, but the history of America itself?
02:22Thank you for that setup of a question. I hope everyone can hear me. So I work for the Smithsonian,
02:28which has 19... So just hold it a little closer. Okay. I work for the Smithsonian, which is the
02:34American National Museum, which has 19 museums and research centers. The most visited is air and space,
02:43certainly by our visitors that come from the subcontinent. But we also have an astrophysics
02:49observatory and in Panama, an ecological center. So it's really pretty vast. And I'm always finding out
02:57more about it, because it's huge and unwieldy. It's got some bit of government funding. So for example,
03:06my museum, which is the Asian Museum, which is the very first art museum of the Smithsonian,
03:12from one of the moments when we had a global outlook. How many of you have been to any of the
03:16Smithsonian Museum? How many of you have been to the Asian Art Museum in the Smithsonian? How many of you
03:24went to the Julia Child exposition or exhibition at the Smithsonian, which I certainly went to? And I
03:31just love the fact that they recreated the kitchen. But go ahead, Sonia.
03:36And you ask me, what are the challenges or how are we going to tell the story of America right now?
03:41I don't know. We're in a period of flux, shall we say, our 250th anniversary, which is much younger
03:49than the city of Jaipur. Our 250th anniversary is coming up. And for the first time, we're looking at
03:56possible governmental interference in what we do. So check with me next year.
04:03How many of you have been to the Museum of, what's it called? Museum of Africa or Museum of?
04:10There's African and African-American.
04:13African-American. Sorry, African-American. What's the museum called? African-American.
04:18Well, we're governmental, so everything is an acronym, NAMOC, National Museum of African-American
04:25History and Culture.
04:26Is the narrative there something that's being challenged?
04:29Is the narrative there something that's been challenged? If any of you haven't been to this
04:36museum, I highly recommend it. It's amazing. It's extraordinary and beautiful.
04:42And it begins in the basement with the story of slavery to the Americas. It talks about race as a
04:49social construct. It works its way through the civil rights and then ends with kind of
04:54the contributions of African-Americans to American civilization. Will that be under attack?
05:04Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, there seems to be a white nationalist moment, but I just
05:11our, the secretary, the head of the Smithsonian is called the secretary Lonnie Bunch. He was a curator
05:16at NAMOC. He's now running the Smithsonian. And he's been a great and inspiring leader in this moment
05:24when we have a challenge. And I don't know how the challenge will affect me as a curator of South Asian
05:28and Himalayan art. Although I have been told, I did read on the government website that I was applying woke
05:36ideology to traditional Indian values. So like I said, stay tuned. But we think we can do it.
05:43We think we can keep history, proper history, diverse stories there. We just have to be very careful so that we
05:52don't immediately irritate our right wing. And maybe we didn't do a good enough job in the past
06:00because a lot of Americans feel excluded from the national story. White Americans feel excluded from the
06:07national story. So right now, we think we can do it. Next year, invite me back. We'll discuss it again.
06:16Pramod, you know,
06:19Deborah talked about a lot of white Americans feeling excluded from the story that's being told.
06:27In India today, we have about 700 museums. Have any of you been to say 10?
06:3510 museums? That's pretty good. Anybody been to 20 museums in the country?
06:41Okay. 30? No. Oh, 30. Rima's been to at least 100 museums. So yeah, because of her research.
06:48What is it that we've done wrong, Pramod? And you know, you've done so many amazing museums, including
06:57there's two wonderful museums in and around Jaipur. One is in Kanata, where he displayed
07:04the writings. How many volumes? 30,000 volumes? 7,000 volumes?
07:10Over 41 years.
07:11Over 41 years, which is displayed there. And for some of you may have gone to the Amrapali Museum,
07:18which displays silver and and jewelry from the Amrapali collection, which is again fabulous and
07:25tells the story or whatever. But what is it that we've done wrong, perhaps in terms of museum professionals
07:31like you, where we haven't been able to tell a story that pushes back on the idea that everybody's now
07:39pushing back on? You know, the the liberal or the left of the center, we've obviously failed telling
07:45our stories because both in America and in Europe and here in India, we're now the minority and we're
07:52being seen as woke, you know, this liberal lot, etc. What have we done wrong in our storytelling?
08:00So the idea of the museum itself is a colonial construct. It's not something that was natively
08:06or indigenous to us as a country or a civilization. But what's really interesting is that we seem to
08:13have adopted that format post-independence into a nationalist project where you have to build a
08:18story around the nation and its greatness. But the one simple problem that I feel conscious every time
08:24I'm in a museum within India or representing any part of India is who are the people that we've forgotten?
08:31What are the marginalized communities who are not represented there at all? Because museums have
08:35always been about objects. And if you don't have objects of indigenous communities from Dalit communities
08:41which are not considered aesthetic or high art, they just don't exist in these collections. So that is a
08:47huge mass of people who are completely ignored and not seen. So the great and the good are constantly
08:53referred to. But the ordinary Indian story is not always there. And worse off is if you're away from the
08:59biggest centers of power. So geographies have changed. Democratic institutions have come in. But those who are
09:06ignored continue to be ignored. And so that has been one major failure. The other major drawback, I would say, is that
09:14Mr. Pravon, let me hold you on that. Any of you have been to the Bhopal Tribal Art Museum? Anybody?
09:20It is India's best museum. And in terms of those people who are ignored, that's the place to go to if
09:28you want to look at at least Madhya Pradesh traditions of tribal art from each of their tribal spaces. An
09:36absolute must visit on your bucket list and Bhimbetka. And the advantage of what he just mentioned on
09:43Bhopal is that the tribal museum there was not curated by curators. It was put together by community
09:50elders who were brought in to tell the story of each of these indigenous communities in their own way.
09:55So it is a viewing of their world, not necessarily of objects. So that idea of being able to put a lived
10:03culture with its objects and provide the 360 degree context is really what is important. And hence,
10:09I feel that the way forward for us is likely to be what are the multiple filters. In 2026, I cannot
10:16look at a bottle and say it is made of plastic and it's got a red cap. There has to be much more to it.
10:21I have to be able to tell the multiple histories of what it contains, who made it, what are the links to
10:27other parts of the world, what materials came from elsewhere, and who used it eventually. So
10:32multiple contexts is really what we are now looking to see represented adequately in museums,
10:39sometimes through objects, but a lot through technological interfaces also, immersive experiences
10:44that we constantly speak about. It is this layered history that is hopefully allow the viewer to take
10:51back something more concrete. Pramodh, much of the work that you've been doing is in private museums.
10:57Amrapali is private, Kanota is private. I think there's about 175 private museums today across the
11:05country, with the largest concentration actually in Bangalore and Bombay, and now Gurgaon for some reason,
11:13including the Museo Camera, which is a public-private partnership, the Museum of Transportation,
11:19which is also in Gurgaon. Is this a possible way forward, where you do not depend on governments,
11:26pretty much like the Americas, where you don't necessarily depend on government funding,
11:31who want to tell a particular kind of story, which of course they must, because that's their
11:36duty. But is there a need and a space and a way that we can have much more private museums,
11:43or private-public partnership museums? Yes, for sure. The advantage of private museums and
11:49public-private partnerships is that there is not one single agenda. It is usually the agenda of the
11:54collector alone. So they're collecting philosophy. Why were they collecting? What were they collecting?
11:59That gets told very clearly. Whereas, as Sanjoy correctly said, the national agenda is what comes
12:06with the government. That's a mandate they have to tell the larger story of the country, the civilization,
12:11the subcontinent, whereas individual collectors tell the story of the objects in their collection and
12:17what it means to them. And I feel a layer of all of these kinds of museums together is really what will
12:24make our experience of the museum landscape of India much better, because there is no one universal
12:30civilizational encyclopedic museum that exists in India. There may be one built in the future for sure,
12:36but as of now that simply does not exist. And these layers of private museums, public museums, private
12:42and public collaborative museums, cultural archives coming forward, all of these are really the way
12:48forward for us to be able to understand where we are at 2026. You know, it's important to realize that
12:54post-independence the mandate of showcasing was different. Looking at it now and the terminology,
13:00and this is a common example that most of our colleagues speak about, when we were studying in
13:04school, textbooks said the revolt of 1857. Today, we are very clear that we say the uprising of 1857 or
13:14the second uprising or the first war of Indian independence, whichever way. So how has the
13:20terminology alone allowed you to decolonize the museum? That itself is, so every act of a label,
13:28a caption, a tombstone information, a text panel, an object, the perspective allows you to look at
13:34things differently. And staying with the idea of collection, you know, we've always looked at
13:38the Americas and Europe as having collectors who then bequeathed their fairly large collections
13:44into museums, etc. This now has started in India. I mean, Lekha Poddar, Kiran Nadar Foundation,
13:52Sunil Munjal, the Museum of Music in Bangalore, the Camera Museum. Are you seeing this as something
14:02that people are becoming aware and that they want legacy? I remember asking Sangeeta Jindal,
14:10you know, of a fairly wealthy group of companies. I said, Sangeeta, when will you look at a legacy
14:18museum? And she said, Sanjoy, we're all first time sort of coming into this space. Forget legacy. I want
14:25to do something for myself now. But now she started thinking of legacy with the children's museum and
14:32their own space. Do you see this to be perhaps the future of the museum space here in India?
14:39Yes, absolutely. The future of the museum space in India is going to be a lot of legacy projects.
14:44Just to be warned, there may be a few vanity projects within that, but that's small and minor.
14:49The larger issue is legacy projects. Do also remember that frequently when collectors collect,
14:54they buy because of an abiding interest in the domain, the area that they like,
14:58bead paintings or textiles. They're also conscious that as they turn older, their next generation may not be
15:04interested in continuing that pursuit. And that also makes them feel that how do we safeguard what
15:10we've put together. So it makes sense to create an institution where these objects go together as
15:15a group, as against getting fragmented. On the flip side, if they do get fragmented, other collectors
15:20get a chance of acquiring things that go into other collections. So there is no easy answer. But yes,
15:27a lot of legacy building is most definitely happening and the public can only welcome it because we get an
15:32opportunity to see treasures that we've always heard about or been told exist, but never really got an
15:38opportunity to see them. Sonia, you know, what was fascinating for me when I went to your museum
15:46many years ago was there in the in Ohio, in many ways, it wasn't necessarily a place that you had
15:55Asians streaming through to see your collection. It was a place that you had mostly white Americans
16:04coming to familiarize themselves or see something that was exotic or not familiar. What was the role
16:12of your particular department in your particular collection in this larger idea of the Cleveland
16:19Art Museum and set us a context of where the museum sits, its 44,000 objects, and how does it play
16:27itself in the politics of the local area? So the Cleveland Museum of Art prides itself on not
16:34collecting collections and instead being well enough funded and also being staffed with directors and
16:42curators who are extremely knowledgeable and are leaders in their fields and so that they are able to
16:47identify the finest example of its kind to represent key moments throughout world history. So it's a museum
16:55that calls itself a comprehensive if not exactly encyclopedic museum with a collection that spans the
17:04world and most of all the time but it's not a collection that's particularly large. So with regard to
17:10the art of South Asia, actually in terms of the museum just reopened in 2012 and the Indian and Southeast
17:18Asian galleries are some of the prime galleries in the entire institution and so there's a great deal of
17:24pride for the Asian collections as a whole especially also including India and Southeast Asia. So there
17:31is a sense of civic pride in Ohio. And China. And China, yes. Some of the Buddha collections from China are
17:39extraordinary at the Cleveland Art Museum. Right, so the Chinese collections and the Indian and Southeast
17:44Asian collections are understood worldwide as some of the best in the world and this is mostly because
17:50the director Sherman Lee who started as a curator in 1952 and was director until 1983. He had been a
17:58monuments man during World War II in Asia and so had a great deal of knowledge about the arts of Asia but also it was at that
18:06time that they received a huge endowment of 70 million dollars for acquisitions of art and it was a time when a great deal of some of the best art was coming out of India and Sherman Lee was working with
18:19Shivaram Murthy who was the director of the National Museum who had a project to make sure that Indian art was represented on an equal level as art from anywhere else in the world and so therefore to prove sort of the worthiness of the new nation to exist using cultural elements and so they very much wanted to have show Indian art as some of the finest quality aesthetic works works of fine art on the
18:49and so on the pedestal beautifully lit the best aesthetic examples of their kind but what happened was that a lot of their context and stories were therefore stripped of their stories their provenance histories and usages.
19:03So one of the big issues obviously that we're seeing more and more is what's the provenance of a piece of art especially sculpture or antiquity that lands up in museums mostly of course it started with the British Museum and the V&A and then as we continue to look at it the Art Institute of Chicago the Houston Museum and of course the Cleveland Museum.
19:25How do we address this because today there's a demand that many of these things that are not but proven you know it's history of how it got there there's this effort can can it be sent back?
19:42How do you send back how do you send back the marble from Athens or how do you send back some of the sculptures from here?
19:51Is there a way? Is there a long loan? Is there a reason why it needs to be sent back?
19:57Can it be studied there in a much more fundamental way?
20:01Does art need to be shared or does it have to be part of a tribal tradition of this is mine and it needs to belong to me?
20:11I think the important element that is often missing is in-depth research and sharing of information so what we need are more researchers who are able to find the histories understand the context most of the time objects in museums are we don't even know exactly the site from which they came and if we do we don't know where at that site it came from and how it functioned there.
20:35So once that can be uncovered and the mechanisms for the transfer of pieces from one place to another
20:41Honestly and the information is shared among all the interested parties in both countries and source nations
20:51The answer usually becomes quite clear what should happen to the object what is the best place for it also when local communities are able to
20:59Receive education about the history of the piece the importance on a global art historical
21:06Context of value as well local communities then understand the pride that they would like to have it in a museum perhaps
21:13But I think the conversations have to take place with enough information and education on all sides and then the answer usually there's usually no argument
21:23Education and information on all sides Deborah one of the things that a lot of the museums in America do or in most parts of the world do is now focus on education and look at the research
21:36A what is your view on this on the whole idea of reparations to is art there to be shared globally
21:44How does this new technology where everything is online solve some of that problem and tell us a little bit about the education program that you all have
21:56I'm gonna try and tie together the provenance and the education question
22:03So the Smithsonian has had the strictest provenance requirements of any museum in the United States
22:10But I've worked there for 25 years and we keep changing them and making them more strict as we find out more about the history of objects that were stolen or looted or
22:20So
22:22So what we've done is actually shift a lot of our attention and I feel like I can say this for Cleveland as well
22:29Repatriation is part of what we do
22:32But we use it as opportunities to create closer relationships with other countries
22:38So we repatriate an object we create an educational program or a training program there
22:44We then we borrow objects back
22:46So it's made us a more open institution in that way
22:51And you know, I'm in charge of South and Southeast Asia
22:55So that's where my repatriations have have gone
22:59The Smithsonian's huge on education
23:01It's actually kind of core to our mission
23:05So we do many things digitally
23:07More and more digitally
23:09More and more digitally
23:10And more and more training programs overseas
23:15Pramod, you know, what fascinated me
23:17A lot of the objects that go out from India are religious iconography
23:22As you know, statues and the Buddhas and the Ganeshas and the Saraswati
23:27Or the doorkeepers or the Dwarapalas that people think are Saraswati
23:31What was fascinating to me when I went to the British Museum or maybe V&A
23:36I can't remember which of them
23:38They have a thorn of Christ
23:40You know, from his supposedly from his crown
23:43But it sits in a general
23:46You know, glass space there
23:50And people walk past it and those who read the indent
23:53Know that it's the thorn from the supposed crown of Christ
23:58Yet another thorn finds itself in a church
24:02Where you have a pilgrimage through the year going through
24:07How do we sort of make this differentiation
24:10When you take a piece of religious iconography
24:14Put it into a museum
24:16Does it lose its place, space and its energy?
24:22So while I can't speak necessarily for energy
24:25Because I really feel that is an experience you have
24:28When you communion with the object in front of you
24:31Be it in a temple or in a museum
24:33What really happens at least in Hindu, Buddhist
24:35And to some extent other Indic cultures
24:37Is that the object within a temple
24:40Is not just the sole act of worship in the shrine
24:43But it goes with a lot of rites and rituals
24:45That are performed along with it
24:47That sort of makes it auspicious rite
24:49And a forum where this worship two-way transaction can happen
24:53You look at the object, the object sees you
24:55All of that happens
24:56The moment it's put into a museum
24:58All of that, the flowers, the holy water, everything is removed
25:01You only have the sacrosanct object
25:04Then the object is just an object
25:06It's not really a religious object as such
25:08So even in many temples
25:10When an idol breaks or something happens
25:12And it's replaced
25:14The khandith, the energy as you asked about
25:17Is taken out of this object
25:19Put into the new one
25:20And the old one is discarded
25:22Because then it's only material
25:24It's stone or wood or whatever it is
25:26So in a lot of the objects we see in museums
25:29Traditionally, either if they were damaged
25:31Or broken or pillaged
25:33They cease to retain ceremonial power anymore
25:37And hence they are much more palatable
25:39Having said this
25:40There's a very famous story of a national museum in New Delhi
25:44Where there was a fantastic Ganesh statue
25:46Which every morning had a fresh flower in front of it
25:49Because one of the cleaning staff
25:51For them this was the Ishtu Devta
25:52And they would bring everyday a fresh flower
25:54And put it there outside the case
25:56And also drank milk
25:57And all of it
25:59I mean all of it comes together
26:00I mean on that particular milk drinking occasion
26:02Yes
26:03This particular statue drank milk
26:04You have a lot of
26:05So people's cultural context tends to vary
26:08So you may have something in a glass case
26:10Which somebody who's a little more honed into the cultural aspect
26:13The cultural aspect knows that this is now devoid and desanctified
26:17Whereas something similar within a shrine
26:20Plays a much larger context
26:22And is thus considered holy or sacred
26:24Sonia, you know there's an argument
26:27Of course you have these huge big museums
26:29Like the Cleveland, Smithsonian, our national museums etc
26:32Is there today an argument that you need to take the museum to the people
26:38Rather than bring people to the museum
26:40And how do we again go back to what Pramod KG said
26:44In terms of addressing those stories
26:48Which have not been told
26:50About communities, about people
26:52About people who've been
26:54In many ways their stories have been erased from history
26:57Because they're seen not to count
27:00What is the purpose of a museum today?
27:03Well a museum is a place where
27:06That is a crucible for learning
27:08And a place where there's a reason
27:10To uncover the stories
27:12And do that research
27:13It's a tremendous amount of research
27:14And resources required
27:16To uncover the stories and the context
27:18Because we're talking about long, long ago
27:20And the archives are difficult to access
27:23Multiple languages etc
27:25And so at least when there's a museum
27:27With a collection
27:28The museum takes seriously
27:30The fact that this object is in its care
27:32And therefore we are responsible
27:34For uncovering the stories
27:36And disseminating the stories
27:38Because our mission is as a public institution
27:40And to share the stories with the public
27:42In a full way
27:44But what happens is
27:45Once we get all of this information
27:47One single object out of the 40,000
27:49Requires, you know, a 500 page book
27:52And a whole exhibition unto itself
27:55So this is what we did
27:56With the Krishna Govardhana exhibition
27:58Where it was one object
28:00Re-contextualized
28:01And to bring it to the people
28:02We can also create these digital experiences
28:06To allow people to not just read the story
28:09Of the piece
28:10But walk through it and experience it themselves
28:13And this can then be on digital platforms
28:15That can be accessed by anyone
28:18But also working with the relationships
28:20With source countries
28:21Is to bring these stories back
28:23To the communities
28:24Because they to themselves
28:25Don't have the opportunity
28:28To access the museums in America
28:31Or even in their capital cities
28:33And so to come back to local communities
28:35And be able to disseminate that
28:36And make them take ownership
28:38Of the sites and places
28:40From which objects have come
28:42Keep them safe
28:43And, you know, pretty much
28:45Where any monument
28:46Is carefully and honestly engaged
28:51With the local community
28:52Where the community
28:53Takes ownership of the monument
28:55Even if it's in ruins
28:56Looting doesn't happen
28:57And so when communities
28:59Can be themselves
29:00The caretakers of sites
29:02We can then start to bring objects back
29:04And we see this happening in Cambodia
29:06In places like Bante Chma
29:08Community
29:09So one of the things
29:11Deborah
29:12That I find fascinating
29:14And I've been doing some reading about
29:16So pre-COVID
29:17I've been seeing
29:18You know, when you read the statistics
29:20You saw a decline
29:21In people going to physical activity
29:23As they continued to only do stuff online
29:26And then COVID came
29:28And that was it
29:29Everybody was locked up
29:31They baked bread
29:32And they did social media
29:33Roughly
29:34Post-COVID
29:35Have you seen
29:37This return to actually
29:39Want a tactile
29:40In-person relationship
29:42Be it with objects
29:43With museums
29:44And how is this playing out
29:46If it hasn't happened
29:48With museum finances
29:50What is the new story
29:52Around museum financing?
29:54The Smithsonian is back
29:58After COVID
29:59I mean, I can certainly say
30:01That the first time
30:02I came back to our museum
30:03After two years away
30:05I wept
30:06Because I had forgotten
30:08Sort of
30:09How extraordinary
30:10Was the materiality
30:11Of a plate from Nishapur
30:14In 10th century Iran
30:15All of that
30:16And so our people are back
30:18And the Smithsonian's quite
30:20Obsessed
30:21Almost with visitor surveys
30:23So we have a pretty clear idea
30:25Of why people come
30:26And it's really different reasons
30:28Some people come to connect
30:29With their heritage
30:30Other people come to collect
30:32To connect with the rest of the world
30:34Some people come for beauty
30:36It's very peaceful
30:37There's all sorts of different reasons
30:39And very different responses
30:41School kids come
30:42Because their teachers take them
30:44But
30:45But
30:46So
30:47I think that
30:48That COVID blip has ended
30:51But the focus of our museum
30:53Is more towards digital
30:54And that's not going to go away
30:56It's not going to go away?
30:57No, because we're trying to
30:59We're trying to make our collections
31:03Especially available within Asia
31:05And how does that impact your funding?
31:07I mean
31:08There was some amount of funding
31:09Coming through
31:10As people came through
31:11They gave
31:12They could have donated
31:13They could have bought tickets
31:14For special exhibitions
31:16How does that impact your
31:18The museum?
31:19Our museum is free
31:20Everything is free
31:21And we're open
31:22Every single day of the year
31:24Except for Christmas
31:26So
31:27That
31:28We didn't
31:29We didn't lose any money
31:30From the gate
31:31But there's less money around
31:32In general
31:33In general
31:34And so we have to be more wise
31:35About how we use it
31:36And what I see happening
31:38Across the world
31:39Is fewer and fewer
31:40Loan exhibitions
31:42Because moving an object
31:43Is the most expensive thing
31:45That we do
31:47Pramod, KG
31:49Museumology in India
31:51Is the go-to thing now
31:53Everybody wants to build
31:54The museums
31:55Last year
31:56They spent 7.1 billion dollars
31:59As an outlay
32:00For museums in India
32:02Not entirely sure
32:03How that worked out
32:05Today there's an idea
32:07Of moving the national museum
32:09Re-looking at the collections
32:11Moving out everybody
32:13From north and south block
32:14As they have been
32:15And making that
32:16The national museum
32:17Of India
32:19How do you see that playing out?
32:21Because you've been intricately
32:22Associated with it
32:24For now
32:25So
32:26While I can't speak for the government
32:28For sure
32:29The little understanding
32:30I've had is that
32:31The national museum
32:32Will continue as it is
32:33There's going to be
32:34No change in that
32:35The new museum
32:36I'm told is going to be
32:37A civilisation museum
32:38Talking about the story
32:39Of India
32:40As a civilisation entity
32:41Not just itself
32:42But its relationship
32:44With the rest of the world
32:45And so that is really what it is
32:48And the contents
32:49I'm assuming
32:50Will come from all the national museums
32:52Across India
32:53Because the government of India
32:54Has several museums
32:55Including about 50 plus museums
32:57Owned by the
32:58Archaeology Survey of India
32:59So all of that material
33:01Will come together
33:02In this new
33:03South North block
33:04Spaces
33:06Which will be animated
33:07With a civilisation story of India
33:09So that's really
33:10Where the intent is
33:11As far as the money
33:12I don't think the money
33:13Is ever going to be enough
33:14In culture
33:15When you spend it on museums
33:16Do remember
33:17We are a very large country
33:18With archaeological sites
33:20And museums spread
33:21Far and wide
33:22Basic amenities
33:24You need in a museum
33:25Getting 50,000 people
33:26Is very similar
33:27To the amenities
33:28You need in a museum
33:29Getting 500 people
33:31Right?
33:32You still need the washrooms
33:33You need the locker rooms
33:34You need the ticket counter
33:35You need the basic services
33:36So that kind of money
33:38Will need to be spent
33:39To maintain sites
33:40And also
33:41What are the kind of
33:42Trained curatorial teams
33:43Who are going to come
33:44Into the museums
33:45Who are the people
33:46Who are going to
33:47Hopefully interpret
33:48And talk about the stories
33:49In languages
33:50And ways
33:51And means
33:52That are accessible
33:53To people
33:54One of the things
33:55We consciously feel
33:56Is that
33:57A lot of times
33:58People visit
33:59Both from
34:00Within big metro centers
34:01And from the hinterland
34:02Are people
34:03Who may or may not
34:04Be able to read
34:05Or write
34:06Any language
34:07They may be able to speak
34:08But they may not be able
34:09To read or write
34:10Any one language
34:11So how can they also feel
34:12That they are part of it
34:13Now to tell those stories
34:14A lot of funds
34:15Is required
34:16To create immersive experiences
34:17To create
34:18Ways in which
34:19You can look at it
34:20I am not saying
34:21That you can do it
34:22Inexpensibly
34:23But you really need
34:24A larger ecosystem
34:25Of professionals
34:26And people
34:28In the fraternity
34:29Trained people
34:30Museologists
34:31As you started with
34:32Who are now
34:33Being looked at
34:34As a serious profession
34:35Across the country
34:36We have a couple
34:37Of institutions
34:38Which are giving you
34:39Postgraduate degrees
34:40Diplomas
34:41In museological sciences
34:42These people are now
34:43Becoming part of
34:44Teams
34:45With fantastic museums
34:46Coming up
34:47Not just in the
34:48Bigger centres
34:49But across the
34:50Larger landscape
34:51Of cultural sites
34:52Site interpretative museums
34:53Private museums
34:54That we already spoke about
34:56I would open it up
34:57In a second
34:58But
34:59Sonia tell us
35:01What's the policy
35:02About museums
35:03Working with each other
35:05And sharing works
35:06And how does that work
35:07Not just within America
35:09Within your area
35:10But really across the world
35:12Is there much more
35:14Of an argument
35:15Today
35:16In this whole
35:17Should we send it back
35:18Not send it back
35:19To actually exchange
35:20And share objects
35:22And how do you all do it
35:23At the Cleveland Museum
35:24Now this is going to be
35:25The way of the
35:2621st century museum
35:27Is much more collaboration
35:29Especially with source countries
35:31And what's happened
35:32With this
35:33The system I think
35:34Of where museum curators
35:36Would go to an art fair
35:38Or go to an art dealer
35:39And they'll see something
35:40They love
35:41And pick an object
35:42Buy it for the museum
35:43Is that it's been
35:44A very ad hoc
35:45Kind of approach
35:46And so we have
35:47Just pieces
35:48Of sets
35:49Here and there
35:50Scattered all over the world
35:52So what we can do
35:53When we start to collaborate
35:54Together
35:55Is start to
35:56Create collections
35:57In places
35:58That
35:59With long term loans
36:00That have
36:01That can tell stories
36:02In galleries
36:03That make a lot more sense
36:05And so this
36:06This has been
36:07The case
36:08Where we've worked a lot
36:09With Cambodia
36:10Where we just signed an MOU
36:11At the Museum of Art and Photography
36:12In Bangalore
36:13Where we'll be borrowing works
36:14Of modern and contemporary
36:15And indigenous art
36:17To have on view
36:18In Cleveland
36:19And also sending objects
36:21To India
36:22And also sending objects
36:23To Cambodia
36:24And when giving objects
36:25To Cambodia
36:26For instance
36:27It has in turn allowed
36:28For the laying of plans
36:31For long term loans
36:33Of great objects
36:34That make much more sense
36:35Together than
36:36Otherwise would have been
36:37The case
36:38Let's take some questions
36:39From the audience
36:40And then I'll come back
36:41And ask them about
36:42Their one favourite object
36:44I'll take them in clusters
36:45So the three questions
36:46Right in front
36:47All three
36:48Just give them a mic
36:49Up in front
36:50Yeah
36:51One, two, three
36:52And then we'll come back
36:53Go ahead
36:54Hi
36:55Hello
36:56Hi, I'm Moira
36:58I know you work very well
37:00Deborah
37:01I'm with Zocalo Public Square
37:02And we've worked for many years
37:03With the Smithsonian
37:04One of the Smithsonian's efforts
37:07Is the museums on Main Street
37:09That takes the collections
37:11Off of the hill
37:12Out into the public
37:13Now that India is at this moment
37:16That Sanjoy has said
37:17Where we've invested
37:18Seven billion dollars
37:20Into this new burgeoning museum industry
37:23In India
37:24What's your advice
37:25For taking this history and culture
37:28Off of
37:29Out of these buildings
37:30And out into the public
37:32What are some of the things
37:33That the Smithsonian has done
37:34That you'd like to share with us?
37:35So taking stuff
37:36Taking it out to the public
37:38Who's the other one?
37:39Yep
37:42Yep, go for it
37:43Thank you so much
37:44I'm born and raised in Cleveland
37:46Spent the last eight years in D.C.
37:47So a joy to hear from the people
37:49Who shaped institutions that shaped me
37:52My question is
37:53I mean both of you receive very different populations
37:56Throughout the year
37:57How do you keep the museums
37:58Both accessible for first time visitors
38:00Who might not have any knowledge about South Asia
38:02South Asian art
38:03South Asian artifacts
38:04But also keep it interesting for South Asians
38:07Who come frequently
38:08Might be repeat visitors
38:09Might be looking for something new
38:10And how do you balance those education efforts?
38:12So accessible for first time visitors
38:14The lady in front
38:15Hi, I'm Neeru Saluja
38:19My question is to promote
38:21You were talking about people having their heirlooms and so on
38:26And the children now have no value for it
38:28So where is it that they can really give this stuff
38:32Which may just go to any kabadiwala
38:34So how do you give heirlooms to people
38:37And the last question in front
38:38Second is
38:39What about the mobile museums
38:42Have you ever thought about mobile museums
38:45Mobile museums
38:46Okay
38:47Where is the bells ringing from
38:49Is it because we are in a museum session or
38:51Go for it
38:52Maybe this question can be answered by Sanjayji and Pramodji
38:56In India at least you see the defence
38:59The army taking a big bite of setting up museums for showing their warfare or whatever
39:06So how do you think this is going to play into the museum space?
39:10And it is said that Da Vinci had written the book
39:13And increased the footfall in not just Paris but also Italy
39:18So the two of you, do your museums also do something which the authors can write
39:24And is there any more work that happens in that sphere?
39:27Right
39:28So Debra you go first with how do you take museums outside
39:32What have you all done in your museum programme for that?
39:37Well actually India has been a great leader in mobile museums
39:41And sending things out in buses
39:43So we do some of that
39:45I think our big emphasis has been on making sure we have school buses to bring people in
39:52We do a programme with the Afghan teenage refugee community
39:56Debra Mike
39:57Yeah
39:58If we do a programme with the Afghan teenage refugee community
40:02It's usually about buses bringing them in
40:05And also at Cleveland too
40:07We have a huge emphasis on most of our visitors are first time visitors
40:11Because we're located in Washington D.C.
40:14So we make stories
40:19Each gallery has a story
40:21And we recently did an exhibition of Udaipur paintings
40:26Where the story was not only about Mood and Bhav and Ras
40:30But it was also about ecological history and water harvesting
40:34Showing how advanced India was at a certain point
40:37And how we could rethink in the United States
40:40How we deal with resources
40:42So usually we go for two stories
40:44So we can bring in new audiences
40:46New audiences
40:48Oh yes we have something called Art2Go
40:51So that there is a
40:53Actually part of the Cleveland Museum of Art collection
40:56Is designated as touchable and movable
40:59So that they have fewer conservation concerns
41:03It's our education art collection
41:05So it's a separate part of the collection
41:07That's intended to be
41:09Part of it brought out to the atrium every Saturday
41:12So people can handle them and learn about them
41:14Or some of them taken in like these little suitcases
41:17To schools or out into communities
41:19In our Studio Go vans
41:22And what's also interesting
41:24And I really should say this
41:25Because both these wonderful ladies
41:27From incredible institutions are next to me
41:29Is that if I today want to put together
41:31A presentation of 50 objects of Indian history
41:34It's easier for me to download from the Cleveland
41:37Or from the Smithsonian's website
41:39Than it is from any Indian institution's website
41:42So that also tells you
41:43Accessibility is very much in your mind
41:45You think you're accessible but you really are not
41:48How do you allow this kind of material to go out?
41:50So different communities can come to you
41:53But everybody cannot get to a museum all the time
41:56So you really need to make your digital presence
41:58So much more interactive and fulfilling
42:00That that information and layers of data
42:02That comes along with it
42:03I mean I make use of these collections all the time
42:06When I'm working with an object from a particular period
42:08So I'm sure that's the case with anybody else
42:11Did you want to answer the army museum question?
42:14So the army museum questions are
42:16The army museums are generally
42:18A lot of them are regimental history museums
42:21Most of them are created by different regiments
42:23Within the Indian army
42:24Where they talk about their history
42:26Of gallantry awards
42:28The kind of battles that they have formed
42:30Or fought in
42:31And the mix of people and communities
42:33That populate that particular regiment
42:35But also what's happened increasingly
42:37If you're aware is that
42:38Many of the army condomments
42:40Manage and hold large sections of historical sites
42:44Which are not necessarily accessible
42:46And really need to be
42:47A case in point constantly brought up
42:50Is the Mughal fort at Allahabad
42:52Which is inside the army condomment
42:54It has some extraordinary
42:55Akbar and Jahangiri period structures
42:57Which we just don't have access to
42:59Because it lies within the condomment areas
43:01So there is a space of a large number of museums
43:04Being created by the army
43:06But their mandate and their story
43:08Is totally different from the mainstream
43:10It's more their own histories
43:12That they're trying to put out
43:13And from the Garwal rifles
43:15To the Kumaon regiment
43:16To the Madras regiment
43:18The Rajputana Rifles
43:2061st Cavalry
43:21Everybody has a museum
43:23Interpreting their gallantry awards
43:27Their stories
43:28And that is really what is put out
43:29But it's still a miniscule
43:31I know your question was different
43:33So it's a miniscule amount
43:35That's spent on museums
43:37By the army or the armed forces today
43:39Where the question comes in
43:42Is the museums that are being built on mythology
43:46As museums representing history
43:49So whereas the museum in Kurukshetra for example
43:53And perhaps you're referring to that
43:55Where many millions of dollars have been spent
43:58To make mythology the truth
44:02So how do you view that?
44:04I think in all of this creating museums is
44:07Is a larger issue in terms of narrative and storytelling
44:13Is it a bad thing or a good thing?
44:15I think the jury is out on that
44:17Should we have more museums?
44:19Absolutely
44:20Should museums be accessible in the way
44:22That Red Fort has now been vacated by the army
44:25Or in Emirates or Gobind Fort has been vacated by the army
44:28Dalatabad to some extent has been
44:31But that's still work in progress
44:34So I think there's a combination of all of this
44:36That needs to be done
44:37But I really believe that the way forward
44:40Is not necessarily to be dependent on governments to do stuff
44:45Communities need to come together to tell their story
44:49The saddest thing about India certainly
44:52Is that we do not have a national museum to independence
44:56And the story of independence
44:58And it took Kishwar to create the first museum of independence
45:04Or partition in Amritsar
45:07We were involved in a whole thing of creating a museum for independence
45:12But the politics behind that got so complicated
45:17And the money story got so complicated
45:20This was during the Congress regime
45:22That I certainly ran for cover
45:24And I said this is not something that I'm willing to be party to
45:28Because you can't be setting up a museum to independence and to partition
45:35And have other considerations built into that
45:40Which has nothing to do with the story waiting to be told
45:43And that was really a money issue
45:45Where I pushed back on whatever I was asked to do
45:49A couple of questions
45:50You have one from the back
45:51Very quickly
45:52Yeah, she's got her hand up
45:54And then one in front
45:56And then we've run out of time
45:57Sorry, go ahead
45:58Hi, Deborah
45:59I just want to ask you
46:00How particular is the Smithsonian about its sources of funding?
46:05Particular sources of funding
46:07It's a big issue
46:08Yeah, we know that
46:09One in front
46:10A British museum
46:12As you know has been in a lot of trouble
46:14Taking shell money
46:15Not that they stopped
46:16But yeah
46:17Hello
46:18This is an India specific question
46:20Very close to my heart
46:21I've been observing it over the years
46:23So when we were growing up
46:25In whatever city we used to travel
46:27We would seek out the art galleries
46:29As well as museums in the city
46:30And at that time
46:31I felt the experiences were similar
46:33But as of probably the past six to seven years
46:36I've seen that art galleries have become so much more modern
46:41Even if I'm visiting NGMA
46:43Let's say three times a month
46:44I can attend different exhibits
46:46Some days they have a slam poetry integration going on
46:49Some other VR integration
46:51So every time you go it feels new
46:53But in my limited experience when we go to museums
46:56It seems more repetitive
46:58And less fun
46:59If you go three times a month
47:00It seems it's the same thing
47:02So it's the sameness
47:03Can we do something to change the sameness?
47:05Who wants to take that?
47:06Museum funding?
47:08How particular is the Smithsonian about the source of the money?
47:13So Sackler money for example in your particular case
47:16How particular is that?
47:18The Smithsonian publishes all of its funding
47:22So nothing is hidden
47:24Our building and our original collection of half of our museum
47:28Comes from Arthur Sackler
47:30Who although he died seven years before OxyContin was invented
47:36Has had a horrible role
47:38Right?
47:39In like big pharma abuses
47:41During his life
47:42So we don't take any money from the Sacklers anymore
47:45And we've returned our Sackler objects
47:47It's quite painful
47:48They had some lovely Indian paintings
47:50And we've returned our Sackler objects
47:53Thirty...
47:54Eight percent of our funding comes from the US government
47:57Which takes care of the physical structure
47:59And some of our salaries
48:01And the rest are private and foundations
48:04Pramod, did you want to take...
48:06Yeah, on the question of the nimbleness of museums
48:08As against galleries
48:10Galleries generally have a board and a structure
48:13Which allows them to change things very fast
48:16They can be topical
48:17They can acclimatize themselves
48:19And they're showing based on what's topical at that time
48:22Whereas museums have such larger, cumbersome processes
48:26That they need to go through
48:27And also remember
48:28Museum objects are of a different kind and variety
48:31So the care that is needed to take care of them
48:33The display conditions
48:35The ambient weather in which it can be shown
48:37The cost of insurance of bringing it out of storage
48:39Putting it into public
48:40Are so much more
48:41That I think museums in India particularly
48:43Have a longer way to go
48:45Before we can be as nimble and flexible
48:48In showcasing and making newness in a gallery
48:51Happen all the time
48:52And innovative
48:53I would love to have continued this
48:54Asked them about their favourite objects
48:56Sadly we've run out of time
48:58Deborah and I have back to back sessions
49:00Deborah Diamond, Promote KG, Sonia
49:03Thank you so much
49:04For this absolutely riveting session
49:06Thank you
49:07Thank you
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