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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome back. This is part two of Enough is Enough, taking action in the
00:08fight for our future. And I'm Don Lemon, and I'm continuing this community conversation that we're
00:13having around creating strategy and action plans for real change. So these are the folks that I
00:20have with me right now. We have Charlene Carruthers, who is currently a part of the movement
00:26of a Four Black Lives team, spearheading the hashtag defund the police movement. We have
00:33also, she's a Black queer feminist community organizer and writer with over 15 years of
00:39experience in racial justice and on and on. Her resume is long. If I read it, we wouldn't have
00:43time to talk. And then we have Jenea Future Khan. Jenea is a co-founder of Black Lives Matter Toronto
00:51and interim campaign director of Color of Change, also part of the Black queer gender non-conforming
00:56activist and staunch afrofuturist boxer social justice educator. And we have Aisha Callahan.
01:05Aisha is a part of news and politics director for Essence. So Aisha, we're very happy to have
01:11you here. Politics and comedy television writer who penned an episode of Chicago gun violence
01:17for BET's Don't Sleep that was later nominated for an NAACP Image Award and on and on. She was
01:26former managing director and editor for News at the Root. Did I get all of that correct?
01:31Yes.
01:33Okay. Thank you all. You all have such rich and beautiful resumes. So I'm just happy to have you
01:40all here. So I started out by asking the other panel if they thought it was a paradigm shift.
01:45And so just for the sake of time, if you think this is a paradigm shift considering everything
01:52that's going on, just raise your hand. Wow.
01:55I've got mine halfway up as well.
01:59Why halfway up, Jenea?
02:01Well, look, you know, I was with Color of Change and now I am acting and I've been acting as the
02:10International Ambassador for Black Lives Matter. And why that's important is this movement is
02:15growing and has been growing for, you know, I mean, the tradition and the rich history of
02:21resistance to this country, of resistance to bigotry and hatred is longstanding. But here we
02:25are in the backdrop of a pandemic and people are hungry. People, millions of people are facing
02:32the possibility of mass evictions. We have seen so many movements in the last 10 years. We went from
02:38Occupy to Black Lives Matter, to Standing Rock, to No Muslim Ban, to the Women's March, to Families
02:44Belong Together. And, you know, the list goes on and now we're all the way up to Me Too. And
02:48here's the thing that we know, people protest.
02:51I mean, this is, I think we're beyond Me Too now. This is the next thing,
02:54which Mika says is, stop killing us. Let's go on.
02:57That's right. And I think part of the affirmative vision is actually, you know, what so many of us
03:02in the Movement for Black Lives are amplifying, which is defunding the police, which is an
03:06abolitionist strategy. But what I want to say is, what do all these movements mean? People protest
03:13when policies and politicians fail them. You know, and at this point, if I'm seeing any paradigm shift,
03:20it is one where we're finally willing to confront the reality across all these movements and across
03:25the political left, we need some bottom lines. And a couple of years ago, families being ripped
03:31apart at the border was not a bottom line for America. Black people being killed by police was
03:36not a bottom line for America. And so we are looking to a group of people who only last year were pariahs
03:46across social justice movements. And that was folks in the Movement for Black Lives who have been
03:51gritting their teeth and doing the unpopular work. So now here we are in 2020, and we're leading into an
03:58elections, and people are finally asking the right questions. And because of the dedicated work of so
04:04many Black women and queer and trans people and people in the Movement for Black Lives,
04:09we finally have some answers. We have answers that we have been working on,
04:14we have been troubleshooting, that we have been studying. And I think that there's so much
04:19scholarship behind this. So if there is a paradigm shift, it's that we're finally giving platforms
04:24to people who have been leading the movement, we're looking at abolition as a real belief system.
04:29Because here's the thing, Don, and I'll end here because I can talk forever. You know,
04:34we're not just fighting this administration. And we're not just fighting this president. And we're
04:39not just fighting a set of policies. We are fighting a belief system. So what is our belief system to
04:45replace it? I think that's what we're looking at right now. I think that's what we're building. And I
04:50think finally, that's where so many folks in this country are willing to be on the streets for.
04:55And that to me, is a reminder that hope is a discipline. And it's a muscle. It's something
04:59that you commit to, like a relationship. And so when everybody says Black Lives Matter,
05:04to me, we're married now. You know, it's not a connection. It's a commitment. And people are
05:08finally ready to make that. So you're married now to Roger Goodell. He said it. I've just been
05:16Charlene, you had your hand half up too. Why?
05:19Yeah. So I do believe that we are living in a moment that I actually didn't expect to experience
05:26in my lifetime. One where radical Black feminist abolitionist visions and political strategies for
05:36the world are being deployed by people, more and more people every single day. And I think that is a
05:46shift in people asking new questions, saying, hmm, actually, I want to think about what safety looks
05:52like without policing, beyond policing, and recognition that policing happens inside and with
05:59law enforcement agencies and also well outside. Our people are policed in many, many, many places.
06:05And so what we're witnessing right now are folks calling for the defunding or divestment from policing
06:11and investments in our communities. And I've heard people use lots of phrasing or explanations all over
06:17the place. But what we simply mean is that looking at the 1.7 billion plus budget that we have for the
06:24Chicago Police Department in Chicago every single year is slashing and cutting that budget. Not five
06:31dollars, not five million. Well, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars for then that money
06:37to be put into resources, infrastructure and services that actually do create real public safety,
06:45like quality public schools, affordable and frankly, free housing, free and quality mental health care
06:52jobs. And the thing that's at the forefront of everyone's mind is for folks who still are like,
06:58oh, the police do keep me safe, or feel like they don't have other alternatives, which I think is
07:03overwhelmingly the reality for a lot of Black folks. We haven't been presented with many
07:07alternatives are anti-violence programs that are rooted in transformative justice. And if those
07:13types of programs were funded, this country would change drastically.
07:16Sorry, I didn't. I thought you were finished your thought. I didn't mean to jump in there.
07:20So I want to talk to you guys because you know that whole, you know, defunding the police,
07:24right? That is right up my alley, what I'm talking about now every single night.
07:27Some people love it. Some people are like, oh, I don't know, right? So I want to talk to you about that.
07:32But I just want to get Aisha in to her thoughts on this. Because Aisha, you did not raise your hand.
07:38I think a true paradigm happens when policies and laws that better people's lives are enacted.
07:47You know, we can talk, you know, the ideas that we want to happen. But if policies don't change and,
07:54you know, local government doesn't change, federal government doesn't change, I just see
08:02this situation repeating itself over and over and over again. So I want to see policy. I want to see
08:10laws. I want to see people actually, you know, receive free health care, receive this housing that
08:16we talk about, receive these reduced sentences or no sentences for these low drug crimes. You know,
08:25I need policies. And a lot of times policies, either they don't happen, or it's a trickle effect. I
08:33don't want to see a trickle effect.
08:34Okay, that's good. So Janae, I want to talk to you. And listen, I don't know if I say the wrong
08:43pronoun, I apologize, because I just, you know, in this particular thing where I'm trying to identify
08:49people. So I want to go back to let's go back to this whole idea of defund the police, which I think
08:55when you think about it, most people understand what you're saying is, why are you sending a police
09:00officer where you should be sending a social worker? Why are you sending this person where
09:03maybe there should be a nurse, or maybe there should be some sort of peace officer,
09:07and so on and so forth. In the overall strategy of an election, does that terminology really matter?
09:17Because I think it may, Janae, it may scare some people, or it may, beyond scaring people,
09:24it gives the current administration a talking point and ammunition to sort of a reason not to
09:32give you what you want, and to make people not vote in the way that you may want them to vote.
09:41You know, here's the thing, we, our existence, really, is that all the ammunition that an
09:48administration like the Trump administration needs. And so we can't base how we talk about things,
09:53and what visions we're offering people, you know, under the gaze of how this is going to be used
10:00against us. That, that doesn't work. I think, you know, right now, people are asking, how did we get
10:07here? How did we get here? How did we get here? Where if you are a person in the world, here in America,
10:15who is having a mental health crisis, you are 16 times more likely to be executed by a police officer.
10:21Is that what, is that the world that we deserve to live in? Is this the best that we can do?
10:26That somebody who needs help is going to face execution? You know, when we have police officers
10:33in schools, police officers in public schools that are grossly underfunded, that are informed by zip
10:41codes in this country, that is, that is unbelievably segregated. You know, is this, is this the best that
10:48we can do? You know, black people are being criminalized and police are being attacked on
10:56the street for barbecuing, selling black children for selling lemonade or walking for going to a store,
11:03you know, and there's the, what is built into policing and really what is built into the American
11:08consciousness, which is an idea that is deep inside of us that believes on some level that black people
11:14must have done something to deserve what happens to them. You know, that Trayvon should not have
11:19gone to the store that day, that Tatiana should not have left her door ajar, you know, that Mike Brown
11:25should not have talked back, that Sandra Blanche should not have asserted that rights. And that is
11:29something, this is an awareness that black children have the moment that the world becomes aware of them.
11:34And so there's this incredible weight that's being carried on. And instead of addressing that and
11:39looking at that, we're pouring more and more money into police. And here's what I want us to know
11:43about defunding the police. What we're saying is not so unimaginable. Because if you live in a white
11:51and wealthy neighborhood, if you live in a white and wealthy neighborhood, you live in a community that
11:55is almost virtually police free, you don't have to look at them. And so what that tells me is that
12:01without police there constantly, people are living well and living just fine. So the real fear in this country,
12:08the real fear when it comes to policing is that they are no longer going to keep people like us,
12:13where we belong, they're not going to be there to keep people in the ghettos and in the projects.
12:18And the minute that they're gone, that we will come out, and that we will go to these neighborhoods,
12:23and that we will rob them. You know, and beyond that racist education, the truth of the matter is,
12:28the best way to ensure that no one is being robbed is to ensure that everyone has enough. And that cannot
12:33happen so long, as we are pouring money into an institution like policing, the last thing I'll say is,
12:40and I always have to say that to make sure that it is the last thing. The last thing I'll say is,
12:46when it comes to policing, what do they do well? Outside of executing people who need help and black
12:52people, what is it that they actually do well? Because they're not there to prevent crime, they respond to it.
12:59And all we're saying with defunding the police is that it's time that we poured our resources into
13:04other kinds of responses. People don't deserve to die because of a noise complaint, or because they're
13:08having a seizure, like we saw with Alfred Olongo out here in Pasadena. You know, and so right now,
13:16we need to radically reimagine what is possible, we need to ask better questions, we need to invest in our
13:22communities. And that means divesting from police budgets, they should be slashed. You know, and we need to just
13:29build out safety structures, education, mental health resources, we need them exactly where to,
13:34where we need to put those resources where they need to go. Right now, people need to be bailed out
13:38in this country, and they need to be bailed out by what's in the police budgets.
13:41Well, let me bring in Charlene, because this is your thing to fund the, you're part of the defund
13:46the police movement. So talk to me, what does that really entail? What does it mean for communities
13:52if police organizations were, in fact, defunded? And I listen, I speak to a lot of people on my
13:59program every night, I'm on for at least two hours, and we're talking about this issue. And for many,
14:03including liberals, progressives, conservatives, defunding the police is a non-starter. They're like,
14:09no, we can't, we can, we can, we can reimagine, as Janaya said, but we don't want to defund the
14:15police. That is a non-starter. So talk to me about that. Well, what's interesting, Don, is that in the
14:23past several weeks, major progressive and liberal institutions like Planned Parenthood, Federation of
14:31America, SEIU, one of the largest labor unions in this country, scores, and I'm not even exaggerating,
14:39of progressive and leftist and liberal institutions have joined the movement for black lives and calling
14:46for the defunding of policing and investment in black communities. And so these are major institutions
14:53that I personally would not have imagined to ever, like, put up on this thing, right? And it is,
15:01honest, in so many ways, it's happening because of many of my comrades, and particularly black women
15:07that I know who work within these institutions, who've been organizing them towards our issues for
15:13years. And so in an electoral cycle, I think there's never a better time to actually fight for bold visions
15:20and bold policymaking. What we saw come out of Congress with the Justice in Policing proposed
15:28legislation was at best a display of a lack of imagination and also a lack of strong political
15:36will in the midst of national and even international calls for a vast transformation of power in this
15:45country, particularly the power that police hold in this country. And so I don't think that it's an
15:51issue. Elections are supposed to polarize people. And I think that this presents an opportunity for
15:57Democrats and other people of other parties up and down the tickets to actually take a principled stance
16:05in saying we are no longer going to lean into the old tropes of so-called being tough on crime. Those
16:11things did not work. We're not going to lean into the continued legacy of the 1994 crime bill. That did
16:17not work. That did not create safety. In fact, it just locked up a lot of people in our communities. And
16:23so now is the perfect time for that work to happen in an electoral cycle and to give people some energy. And
16:31what's particularly important is that we are winning. There have been policy wins. In Minneapolis, there was a
16:38a distinct policy win with the city council voting affirmatively to move forward with the disbanding
16:46of the Minneapolis Police Department. They also ended the Minneapolis Public School District ended
16:52their contract with the Minneapolis Police Department. We're seeing similar things happen in Denver,
16:58in Portland, and starting to happen in other places. Right now, here in Chicago, young people and
17:05students are calling for the $33 million that is currently going to be allocated to the Chicago
17:11Police Department to be reallocated into school-based services. And I want to make this really clear,
17:16that we're not just simply talking about moving resources into more institutions that act as police
17:22by proxy. Because we know, and I'm a trained social worker. I have a master's in social work.
17:27There are many social work institutions that police our people. And so we are, I'm not talking about
17:33reimagining policing. I'm talking about redoing and transforming how we deal with conflict,
17:39harm, and violence, up and down. As an abolitionist, I believe in the abolition of the prison
17:45industrial complex, and I work towards it, defunding the police is one part of a broader strategy
17:50in transforming how we deal with conflict, harm, and violence in this country outside of punishment
17:55or prisons and policing. So yeah, it's an overall, it's overall criminal justice,
18:01and how we reform the entire system, and policing falls under all of that. Am I correct?
18:06It does fall underneath all of that, and also the surveillance. And it is literally like,
18:12what happens when someone steals your car? I've had my car stolen before, right? The police don't
18:17typically stop cars from being stolen. It usually doesn't happen. And when my car is stolen,
18:23I want my car back. That's what I want. Got it. Okay. Got it. Okay. But Aisha,
18:32there are so many things that I wanted to talk to you about, but we're running out of time here. So
18:35I apologize for that. But I wanted to talk about the pulling down of monuments and
18:40Confederate images and so on and so forth. What are the policies that you want to see change with?
18:46What do you want to see change? You know, I would like to see, like Sherlyn said,
18:52when it comes to defunding the police, you know, take that money and put it elsewhere.
18:57And if you're not going to do that, find better police officers, have psychological exams, have them
19:04like, I can't just go become president. There has to be some type of education that these police
19:11officers need to have beyond a high school diploma, beyond a couple of associate degrees. They need
19:18psychological training. They need psychological evaluation. The police officers need to be able
19:26to work in deescalation mode, which they don't know how to do. If anything, let them work side by side
19:35with social workers. So they know how to talk to people humanly because they don't know how to do
19:40that either. And so I question the type of person who chooses to be a police officer. Like, what are
19:49your motives? I hear people, well, ever since I was a little kid, I've wanted to be a police officer.
19:53But why? You know, I know so many people who were bullied as kids and they use that as ammunition,
20:03no pun intended, to become a police officer when they get older. So ask these people, why are they
20:09seriously taking on these jobs? Ask them what their motives are. You know, delve into their mental
20:16health background. Delve into their family background. You know, just don't look at a piece
20:21of paper and pass a physical. So I think if they're not going to defund the police, find better police
20:27officers. Well, I'm so glad that we all got to talk about this. I wish we had more time to talk about
20:32more. This is fascinating. You guys are so smart. You're way younger than me and you're making me feel bad
20:37about who I am. I'm kidding. But I'm so happy that we have people like you as activists and people
20:45like you who are representing us. And I have to be honest and tell you guys that I'm in the middle of
20:51talking to very influential people in business about where we go from here. And I always mention
20:59young activists like you. I'm in the process of thinking about writing a book and I want to include
21:04young activists and people like you. And on my podcast, I talk about and I feature young activists
21:09and people like you. So I'm very proud of your energy and your passion. And so keep it up. And
21:18I'm always here for you if you ever need a resource or if you ever just need to want to talk to,
21:22or if you have a good story that you want to break on my show. So thank you, Janaya. Thank you,
21:27Aisha. Thank you, Charlene. I really appreciate it. And everyone, I want to tell you that concludes our
21:33program for this particular segment. I had a fascinating time. I hope that you will continue
21:39to watch Essence Festival of Culture all weekend for more information and for stimulating panels that
21:50you get to learn from about culture and about what's happening in our society. So thank you so
21:54much for watching. I'll see you guys soon. Have a great time at the festival virtually. Be safe.
22:09So
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