00:00Now we are awaiting news of a phone call between the French president and his Russian counterpart.
00:06Emmanuel Macron maintained contact with Putin, of course, at the start of his all-out invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
00:12He received a lot of criticism for doing so, but nonetheless he thought it was a way to perhaps try to negotiate some kind of halt to the hostilities.
00:20A war, of course, now approaching its fourth anniversary.
00:23There is, though, already scepticism on the usefulness of this latest attempt to talk to the Russian president,
00:28who, we remind you, is wanted for war crimes in Ukraine.
00:32The plan to talk has been dismissed by Putin's Foreign Secretary, Sergei Lavrov, as, and this is his quotation,
00:39pathetic diplomacy.
00:41Let's bring in Philip Toe, our international affairs editor, for more on this.
00:44Is this the right move that Macron is making?
00:47I think Emmanuel Macron feels that this could be the right time to increase the pressure on Vladimir Putin.
00:54Remember that Macron was one of several European leaders who stood up to Donald Trump over the threats to invade Greenland.
01:02He knows that when Europe comes together, it stands up in the face of adversary, then it can end up being victorious.
01:09So, I think that he believes that in the face of the United States, of these negotiations you were just talking about between Volodymyr Zelensky,
01:20or the Ukrainian side without Zelensky, of course, and the Russians mediated by the United States,
01:25it's time now that the European Union got involved as well, because the European Union has a lot to lose if Ukraine is going to lose the war.
01:33That's why Emmanuel Macron feels that it's the right time to move forward.
01:36There's another element, too, or a couple of other elements.
01:38One is that Macron believes that France has more sway in this because it's a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, like the Russians.
01:46It also has a nuclear weapon like the Russians, and that's why France should be taken more seriously than maybe other European nations.
01:54And also, Emmanuel Macron is coming towards the end of his mandate as president of France, which is due to run out in May 2028.
02:03Therefore, he thinks that it's now or never if I'm going to make a move to try to push negotiations in the right way as far as ending the war in Ukraine is concerned.
02:12Fine analysis. Get what you're saying. Sergei Lavrov, of course, would disagree with you.
02:17He would. And, well, he would and he wouldn't.
02:20I mean, Sergei Lavrov actually did come out to say today that if you want to call Vladimir Putin and discuss something serious, then call.
02:27We're always willing to pick up the phone to talk about serious matters.
02:31We'll see what those serious matters are.
02:33But I think as far as France is concerned and what Macron wants to achieve, there are three things or even four, maybe.
02:38The first one is that he wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table via sanctions.
02:45He wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table via negotiations between Russia and Ukraine.
02:50And he wants to bring Russia to the negotiating table by international pressure or by increased international pressure.
02:56But at the same time, it's stipulated that doesn't want France to go to war with Russia over the war in Ukraine.
03:00But what is important for Emmanuel Macron, and I think for most European leaders, is that if discussions are going to take place and there's going to be an end to this war, the only people who can end it are those in Ukraine and those in Russia.
03:12And whatever the Americans try and do or the Europeans, then they're not going to be able to negotiate an end to the war with one or other of the parties.
03:21The two parties have got to end up at some point talking to each other face to face to find a way out of all of this.
03:27You're saying Vladimir Zelensky earlier saying he thinks the next round of talks will take place actually in the United States.
03:33I don't know whether he's hinting that perhaps he might be there or not.
03:36Of course, that all remains to be seen.
03:38But I'm wondering sort of what the situation would be given Vladimir Putin's consistent approach, which has always been to do exactly what he wants.
03:49To say one thing and then do another thing.
03:50Today, for instance, as the second day of the talks is getting underway, you know, drone strikes on Sumi.
03:55I think that he knows that Donald Trump is going to go along with what Russia wants.
04:02Donald Trump is far removed from the more aggressive and more resilient approach that was that of Joe Biden, his predecessor.
04:10Donald Trump appears to have given in to basically what Vladimir Putin wants down the line.
04:16And when push comes to shove here, Mark, what we've got is when you want to end a war, it's easy when one side has been defeated and then you sign a peace treaty and move forward.
04:29In this case, neither side has been defeated.
04:31So Ukraine is not willing to give up territory and Russia thinks it's still got more to win on the ground than coming to the negotiating table.
04:40And that's why this war is so difficult to bring to an end, because the two sides are really too far apart from reaching any common ground to be able to get to the negotiating table and to find an easy way out of all of this.
04:54As always, thank you very much, our international affairs editor. Great to see you, sir. Thank you.
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