00:00C'est parti !
00:30Now, we're a few months into 2026 and it's really been dizzying in terms of geopolitical development.
00:36You've spoken out about the US's actions from Venezuela to Greenland.
00:42Where does this new world order that's emerging leave Europe?
00:46You know, I think we are not used to experience this acceleration.
00:51You know, things are happening that would have been impossible a few years ago.
00:55And I think it's just a follow-up of different years, what I call the kind of perfect storm.
01:02You know, since many years we are going from a crisis to another crisis.
01:06And it's very difficult to have perspective in this.
01:09And maybe, I'm not sure, but my impression is that 2026 could be a kind of rapture.
01:13Strong rapture.
01:14What does it mean?
01:15It doesn't mean that it is the end of the world.
01:17It means that we are in a chaotic situation and probably we will have to then to organise some adaptation
01:23to see how we can really make sure that what we want to have as ways of living for our societies,
01:31for our continent, will be strong in the future.
01:33And where does this leave the Council of Europe?
01:35Can Europe continue to be this beacon for democracy, rule of law, in this new world order?
01:41Yeah, who else?
01:42You know, I mean, we are coming.
01:44The Council of Europe comes from this very brutal history of the Second World War.
01:49And just after this, I mean, it was clear that if we want to live in a world where this never happened again,
01:58it's difficult to make sure that we had to start with organising societies.
02:05the rights to have this convergence between European societies.
02:09And it is now in history about more than 75 years.
02:13But the Council of Europe was created exactly for those kind of tough times, what we also have now.
02:18And I think that more than before, today it is important to reaffirm the support that we have for this way of life.
02:24You were very vocal when Donald Trump was threatening Greenland.
02:28That's kind of been diffused slightly.
02:30But I know you met with Donald Trump when you were previously the Swiss President during Donald Trump's first term.
02:37If you were to meet with him again today, how do you think that conversation would go?
02:42First thing, I can't remember, as I met him for a bilateral meeting in 2018, he was mentioning exactly what's happening today.
02:51He was mentioning trade balance.
02:53He was mentioning Greenland.
02:55He was mentioning this, but not maybe able to make it happen.
02:58Today it is different.
02:59And I mean, we need not only to take this seriously, but also to think about what it means for the world we want to live in.
03:07If we have strong allies trying or starting to threaten also sovereignty of European territory, what does it mean for the world we are living in?
03:19I mean, I think we must be strong, we must be united and to try to define together what we want to achieve together in five or ten years, not only on defense issues, not only on commercial issues, but also about the values we want to see developing on the continent.
03:36So you do believe that transatlantic relationship has to be upheld?
03:40That is the future of Europe or does it need to look elsewhere?
03:42You know, you know, I'm quite sure that also, I mean, what would be the alternative for the U.S. if you think on the long term?
03:49I mean, it's quite clear that the best possible alliances for the U.S. is Europe.
03:55Or I don't see the alternative.
03:57I mean, if we just think in their perspective, what are they looking for?
04:01I mean, China, Russia, what would be stable in the long term?
04:04That's why I'm sure that it will remain a strong relation between U.S., North America and Europe.
04:11But in this kind of stress test that we have now, we must be confident and clear and strong.
04:17I want to pivot to human rights.
04:19The convention, the European Convention on Human Rights, is a real cornerstone of your institution.
04:23It is, it is.
04:24Is it facing a moment of reckoning?
04:28It is a living instrument.
04:29And when we see some tensions on the continent, when we see some tensions developing, it is absolutely logic.
04:36It is because it is an instrument that counts.
04:37It is logic that we have also some discussions about the system of the conventions, about what we want to develop together.
04:45You know, this European Convention on Human Rights, it is a major achievement of European societies over centuries.
04:53Really, you probably mentioned the discussion on migration.
04:55Migration, you know.
04:56It is an issue, it is a concern in the majority of member states.
05:02It is then logic that we are able to take this.
05:05But we need to be able to do this properly and to channel this discussion for making it productive.
05:13So, to be concrete, nine EU countries have called on the court to review how it interprets the convention.
05:23You say it is a living instrument.
05:26Does that mean it is open to reinterpretation?
05:28I think it is clear that migration is an issue and a concern in the majority of the member states.
05:35And if it is a concern, it is logic, only logic, that we are able to have some platforms where it is possible to address this at the political level.
05:43But I was clear with this intervention, this letter, the way they choose to act is wrong.
05:48It is not possible and not good to start making political pressure on the court.
05:52What would you say if, well, when a tribunal in a country is taking a decision, if it is not in the sense what the governor was expecting,
06:03that the government will make a pressure and say, please change your decision.
06:06It is not okay.
06:07It is not the way we want to see rule of law implemented.
06:10We should have the courage to start a political discussion and then to see what happens.
06:14And that's why, while I was really clear about the methods, it is wrong.
06:18But the concern is real and we need to address this in a positive and productive way.
06:24And what is productive?
06:25It is to have this discussion back in Strasbourg and it is then to have this discussion at the political level.
06:30And that's exactly why we organized in December, on my invitation, a ministerial conference on this issue at the Committee of Ministries of the Council of Europe.
06:39But the result in terms of the reinterpretation of the convention, do you still see that as a possibility as things stand now?
06:47I think, you know, I mean, the member states need to decide.
06:49What I see at the moment, there is no consensus at all about the fact that we should do steps further than to start with a political discussion,
06:58to prepare, you know, a statement and a clear position of the Council of Europe.
07:02We need to find, as far as possible, you know, a consensus for this and then to see what will happen with it.
07:09And do you feel this could be a slippery slope in terms of reopening these basic concepts within the convention?
07:16I mean, you know, what we are doing now will be really, well, extremely observed.
07:23I mean, what will happen now with migration, it will be possible for other countries to make the same, to choose the same way,
07:31maybe to put in discussion all the rights.
07:34You know, I also told this to some of the exponents.
07:36They wanted to have migration discussed.
07:38and I was just telling them, okay, at the political level, but we must be really careful
07:43because we have maybe all the countries ready to open the same kind of discussion on the rights.
07:48And maybe then we won't agree about this.
07:51Your institution also has a very prominent role in establishing the Special Tribunal for Crimes of Aggression against Ukraine,
07:58along with the European Union and Ukraine itself.
08:01How important is it for you that those responsible for these crimes are eventually, they're tried before a court of law?
08:09When you have an aggression, there is an accountability.
08:12When you have destruction and suffering, there is accountability.
08:15And at the Council of Europe, it is where we really have a strong added value supporting Ukraine,
08:19with the European Court on Human Rights,
08:22addressing every day thousands of cases of violations of human rights in the case of the conflict in Ukraine.
08:27We have now the Register of Damage and the Claims Commission for Reparation.
08:32And the third pillar, I would say, is the Special Tribunal.
08:35I had the privilege to sign with President Zelenskyy an agreement on this.
08:39Now we are preparing, but we really need to make some progress and to have countries,
08:44there is the need to have a political will to join those instruments about accountability.
08:49You mentioned the political will.
08:51Is it also certain that countries are willing to contribute financially to this?
08:59Are you facing problems in getting the money?
09:00It is never certain, you know.
09:02I mean, we need to make some progress.
09:04And it is exactly the role that we have.
09:06We need to start not thinking about the next steps too far.
09:12We need to think about the next step and the step after, but not the...
09:17And what are the immediate next steps?
09:18And at the moment, the next step, we have now the funding from the European Union,
09:2210 million for organizing all the legal framework, you know, organizational issues, logistics, all things.
09:31We have a so-called advanced team doing this right now.
09:35And we will be ready to have then states joining.
09:39But now we need also to have, well, clear views on the costs, budgets, to have clear support for the budget,
09:47because the Council of Europe is definitely not able to do this.
09:50I mean, it's much bigger than we are.
09:52Doesn't this concept of accountability need to have more of a focus in the ongoing peace talks, do you think?
09:59I think there is clear that it is part of the whole discussions, maybe not always in a positive sense, by the way, but it is part of the...
10:07What do you mean by that?
10:07I just observed that in the first so-called peace plan in 28 points, one point was not about accountability, but about impunity.
10:16That's not a positive development, you know, to have this discussion.
10:18But it underlines that it is part of the whole discussions.
10:21And our role, I think, is to make this link between the rule of law, democratic values, it is linked with responsibility, and where there is responsibility, there is also accountability.
10:32That is exactly what we promote.
10:35Finally, just your thoughts on Iran, because we have talks now between Tehran and Washington to defuse the tensions there.
10:43How important are these talks also for Council of Europe members who are neighboring countries of Iran?
10:48I mean, for us, it is really important on two different elements.
10:51The first element, it is not possible to be in favor of democracy and freedom of speech and freedom of, you know, demonstration, and then to see what's happening here and not to think it is a terrible, horrible tragedy.
11:07And the rights that we are promoting for the 46 members of the Council of Europe are the same that we are, that we should also promote in the rest of the world.
11:15Second point is about the regional stability.
11:18We have at the Council of Europe three countries with borders with Iran.
11:23And we have also an interest, it is also in our interest, in the interest of the member states, to be really aware about what's happening and to work on this stability.
11:31Because this stability, at the end of the day, is the only thing we can really do in favor of populations.
11:40And why are we doing all this?
11:42It's not for ourselves.
11:43We are doing this because we have populations living on the continent and with the right to have perspective, stability, and good possibilities for their own development, for their families, for companies, and for the countries.
11:55Alain Berset, thank you so much.
11:56Thanks.
11:57We'll see you next time.
Commentaires