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Panorama - Season 2026 Episode 4 - Our Man In Moscow
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00:00The camera's running.
00:11All right, are you ready, Steve?
00:12I'm ready, yeah.
00:14Good.
00:24There are many moments in my life
00:27when I think,
00:28this is very strange.
00:30One of the most bizarre things
00:34that happened to me
00:34happened in the 1990s
00:36when Russia first took part
00:38in the Eurovision Song Contest.
00:44I was being given a tour
00:46of Russian state television
00:47and wandered into a studio
00:49where they were rehearsing
00:50for that evening's Song for Europe.
00:52And I got talking to the director
00:54and told him I like Eurovision.
00:55He said, oh, well,
00:56come back this evening.
00:57You can co-present the program.
01:01Okay.
01:02The company's company
01:06of the British
01:08Stephen Rosenberg.
01:10Good evening.
01:10Good evening.
01:11Stephen, how do you deal with the Eurovision Song Contest?
01:14I love it in England.
01:16Things like that happened in the 1990s.
01:20There was this buzz in the studio
01:23and it felt like after the fall of communism,
01:26Russia was now part of this European family
01:28and we were going to do great things together
01:32and the world was going to be a better place
01:33and a safer place
01:34and a happier place.
01:35I mean, you know,
01:39when you're young,
01:40you're completely full of hope
01:42and optimism.
01:46And it just didn't work out.
01:53Since Vladimir Putin came to power,
01:56Russia has become a very different country.
01:58It felt as if this huge black cloud had come over.
02:12Russia had taken a very dark path.
02:14Simply calling it a war
02:22can lead to 15 years behind bars.
02:27We've seen journalists detained,
02:30arrested, put on trial.
02:31No one is protected from prosecution.
02:34Virtually all of the independent media
02:35in Russia has closed down.
02:37Many journalists have already left the country.
02:44I would never criticise any reporter
02:49for having left Moscow.
02:52But living and working in Russia,
02:55trying to report what's happening right now,
02:58does feel as if I'm walking this tightrope.
03:11I remain fascinated.
03:14by Russia
03:15and want to know
03:17how this is going to end.
03:19Every year, in December,
03:45there is one event
03:46which goes on for four or five hours.
03:51Vladimir Putin,
03:52live on television,
03:54answering questions,
03:55and there's no guarantee
03:57that you get a question.
03:59But you need to prepare for it.
04:01Because if you do get an opportunity,
04:03you want to make it count.
04:06So,
04:07I go and try and practice the question.
04:09So, under my breath,
04:10walking up and down.
04:11There has to be, like, a decent question, right?
04:15Otherwise, there's no point in asking it.
04:17You don't want to ask,
04:17what is your favourite colour,
04:18Mr. President?
04:19Yes.
04:20Okay, let's try it.
04:25President of the Russian Federation,
04:26Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
04:28The thing is that
04:30some of the questions
04:32that Vladimir Putin gets asked
04:33are not difficult
04:34for him to answer.
04:35Are you a happy man?
04:37How do I tell you?
04:38They really sort of puff questions.
04:40What are you dreaming?
04:42Yes, of course,
04:43but it's a personal dream.
04:46Can I leave it for yourself?
04:50But I think it's important
04:52to ask a serious question
04:53and a serious answer.
04:55I promised BBC.
04:56Yes, of course.
05:00Rovely 25 years ago
05:01Boris Nikolaj Eltsin
05:03went to the leave,
05:05he said to you to protect Russia.
05:10What do we see?
05:11We see significant losses
05:12in the so-called STO,
05:14which you have been able to
05:15in the sanctions,
05:18high inflation,
05:19in the demographic problems.
05:22How do you think
05:23you protected your country?
05:26Yes, I think it's not just
05:29he protected it.
05:29I think we've gone from
05:31the end of the fall.
05:33The interesting thing
05:34about his answer was
05:35he was defending
05:36his time in power.
05:39I did everything
05:40so that Russia
05:42was a sovereign state.
05:44But it's what happens
05:46after the press conference
05:48that I think gives
05:49a really interesting insight
05:50into what's happening
05:52in Russia.
05:59You're pounced upon
06:01by a string
06:02of Russian television crews.
06:06There's this sense
06:07of paranoia.
06:10One crew accused me
06:11of asking a provocative question.
06:15You don't want to say
06:16anything that could be
06:17edited, clipped up
06:18in a way to reflect
06:19an anti-Russian bias.
06:22So you have to think
06:23very carefully
06:24what you're going to say.
06:27Mike said
06:28I wasn't asking
06:29a provocative question.
06:30I asked a normal
06:30journalistic question.
06:33You know,
06:33I don't simply
06:34repeat
06:35the official line.
06:36I try to question it.
06:38That's what journalists do.
06:44I get the feeling
06:45that they want
06:47to paint
06:47Western journalists
06:48as russophobes,
06:50as Russia haters.
06:57I find it upsetting
06:58I don't hate
07:04the country.
07:06I've lived in Russia
07:07more than half my life.
07:09I fell in love
07:10with the country.
07:11It couldn't be
07:12further from the truth.
07:17But the view
07:18presented by
07:19the Russian state media
07:20is that
07:22Western journalists
07:23are just here
07:24to undermine
07:26the Russian state.
07:27and it's a very
07:29powerful
07:29message
07:31and a very
07:31powerful weapon.
07:43The sound of war
07:44has reverberated
07:45around Ukraine
07:46for three years.
07:48Overnight,
07:48Russia's largest
07:49drone attack yet
07:50hit the capital.
07:51Residential buildings,
07:53shops and cafes
07:53were hit.
07:54a record 267
08:04Russian drones
08:05were launched
08:06in one night.
08:07We're talking about
08:19peace.
08:20We have
08:20either a ceasefire
08:22or a peace itself
08:23and we're looking
08:24to do both.
08:31The year began
08:32with a sense
08:34that Donald Trump
08:35wanted to reboot
08:37relations
08:38with Russia
08:39and bring
08:41Vladimir Putin
08:41in from the cold.
08:42The two men
08:43had a 90-minute
08:44phone call
08:45reversing years
08:47of US isolation
08:48of the Russian leader.
08:49We had this
08:50telephone call
08:51between Trump
08:52and Putin.
08:53Mr Trump described
08:54it as a highly
08:55productive conversation.
08:56I'm Ben Tavener.
09:10I'm a producer
09:11in the Moscow Bureau.
09:13Most days
09:14the Kremlin
09:14calls us in
09:15for a conference call
09:17to President Putin's
09:20spokesman,
09:21Dmitry Peskov.
09:22We wanted to ask
09:32this senior Kremlin
09:33official,
09:33Mr Peskov,
09:34whether he thought
09:35this telephone call
09:36between Trump
09:38and Putin
09:38would lead
09:39to some kind
09:41of an agreement
09:42to end the war.
09:43And so important
09:45was this conversation
09:46in the eyes of Kremlin.
09:48Vladimir Putin's
09:57press secretary
09:58seemed to suggest
09:59that both
10:01Washington and Moscow
10:01were keen to
10:03completely
10:04revamp
10:06their relationship.
10:07There was a real sense
10:08of, wow,
10:08things are going to change.
10:10And perhaps this year
10:11we're going to be
10:11documenting
10:12the end of the war.
10:13So we wanted
10:14to get out of Moscow
10:15and see what Russians
10:17were thinking
10:17and feel the mood.
10:20So we decided
10:21to go about 100 miles
10:22to the north
10:23to a town
10:24called Tver.
10:31All we wanted
10:31to do
10:32was to go
10:33around the town
10:34asking people
10:35what they thought
10:36about the prospects
10:37of peace.
10:38Nothing controversial.
10:41But you have
10:43to be constantly
10:44aware
10:44that anything
10:46could happen
10:46at any moment
10:47just when
10:49you're least
10:49expecting it.
10:52The police
10:55pitched up
10:56and wanted
10:57to know
10:57what we're doing.
10:58in those situations
11:11you have to remember
11:12relations between
11:13Russia and the West
11:14and Russia and Britain
11:15are pretty tense.
11:17So it's important
11:20to stay calm.
11:22You don't want to start
11:23running up and down
11:24the street shouting
11:25I'm doing nothing wrong
11:26how dare you
11:27come up to us.
11:29You have to explain
11:30that you have
11:31all the documentation
11:32all the accreditation
11:33you need
11:34and you'll remain
11:35civil and polite.
11:36You hope
11:40that it's just
11:40going to be
11:41an identity check
11:42but of course
11:43we've seen
11:44much worse
11:44happen to people
11:45in the last few years.
11:51And then
11:52miraculously
11:53the local
11:54state TV crew
11:55turned up.
11:56Obviously
12:05they've been told
12:06to come and
12:07check us out
12:08as well
12:08I think.
12:24I did point out
12:26to the correspondent
12:27that you talk
12:28about press freedom
12:29and yet the police
12:29have come to
12:31investigate what
12:32we're doing.
12:33That didn't seem
12:33to kind of
12:34register with him.
12:35Thank you very much
12:36for talking.
12:37Let's talk to the police
12:39and see what
12:40happened again.
12:41We've talked
12:42very much.
12:43Thank you very much.
12:44You know
12:44we've barely been
12:45in the town
12:46for half an hour
12:47when we're being
12:49asked to justify
12:50our presence there.
12:52It makes you think
12:53twice about
12:54the surveillance
12:54that's happening
12:55in Russia
12:56certainly over the last
13:0110 years
13:02I'd say
13:03regularly
13:04when we've gone
13:05out of Moscow
13:05there have been
13:07cases where
13:08clearly
13:09we've been
13:10followed
13:11and the same
13:12figures appear
13:13at the street corners
13:13watching you.
13:15You can't relax really
13:33for a second.
13:35You want to report
13:37accurately and
13:38honestly
13:39about what's happening
13:41but you don't
13:42want to fall
13:42off the tightrope
13:43onto the minefield
13:44below
13:45and hit a mine
13:46and there are
13:47lots of mines
13:48you could hit.
13:51Of course
13:52journalists
13:53are not the only
13:53foreigners in Russia
13:54to have close
13:55encounters
13:56with the authorities.
13:57so I went to visit
14:01the British ambassador
14:02to Moscow
14:03he lives in
14:04an incredible residence
14:06right opposite
14:07the Kremlin.
14:11That's quite a view.
14:12This is the view
14:13I wake up to in the morning
14:14yeah
14:14it's quite something
14:15isn't it?
14:17Apparently Stalin
14:18was desperate
14:19to get us out
14:20he was convinced
14:20we were sort of
14:21beaming radio waves
14:23into the Kremlin
14:23but despite his efforts
14:25and some others
14:26since then
14:26we're still here.
14:28Do you get the feeling
14:29you're being watched
14:30on a daily basis?
14:32Well if you do
14:32ever go out on the balcony
14:33you definitely feel that
14:34yes.
14:38This hostility
14:39towards the UK
14:40from the authorities
14:41how does that affect
14:42your work
14:43as British ambassador here?
14:46Well it has obviously
14:47made it much more difficult
14:48in a practical sense
14:49people are
14:50literally scared
14:51of meeting us
14:53I've noticed
14:54even in my two years here
14:55the number of people
14:58who are willing
14:58to meet me
14:59has shrunk.
15:01I mean I don't know
15:01if you can talk about it or not
15:02but when we travel
15:04outside of Moscow
15:04very often
15:05we sense there are people
15:06sort of following us
15:07or keeping an eye on us
15:09would that be the same for
15:10Oh yes
15:11yeah
15:11no
15:12we assume that
15:13by one means
15:14or another
15:15people are following
15:16our movements
15:18and who we're talking to
15:19and what we're up to.
15:29Of course
15:29looking back over the last
15:31few decades
15:31there have been
15:32moments of tension
15:33high tension
15:34between
15:34Russia and the West
15:36Britain
15:36and Russia
15:37but that tension
15:39went off the scale
15:41really
15:42four years ago.
15:46Ukraine has imposed
15:48martial laws
15:49Russia officially begins
15:50its military invasion
15:51of the country.
15:54The onslaught began
15:56just before dawn
15:57with a barrage of missiles.
15:59I got a call
16:01very early
16:02in the morning
16:02on the 24th of February
16:04to say
16:05Putin's on television
16:06he's making this big speech.
16:07There were reports of
16:22large numbers of Russian
16:23soldiers crossing the border
16:25into Ukraine
16:25and it was at that point
16:28that it really hit me
16:29like a punch to the face
16:30and the enormity
16:33of what had happened
16:33and that things
16:35would not be the same again.
16:37The Kremlin
16:38is trying to control
16:39discontent over the war.
16:41At least 8,000
16:42protesters
16:43have been arrested.
16:44Then
16:45the authorities
16:46passed
16:46a series of repressive laws
16:48criminalizing
16:50so-called
16:51dissemination
16:52of fake news.
16:53Simply calling it a war
16:55can lead to 15 years
16:57behind bars.
16:58These laws
16:59were used to
17:00detain
17:01and prosecute
17:02people who were
17:03criticizing the authorities
17:04and the war.
17:06Tonight
17:07many Russian journalists
17:08are fearing
17:09for their safety.
17:10Some have already
17:11fled the country
17:12this week.
17:15My name is
17:16Ann Simmons
17:17and I was
17:18the Moscow bureau chief
17:19for the Wall Street Journal.
17:22There was an obvious
17:22decrease
17:23in the number
17:24of foreign
17:25journalists
17:26working in Russia
17:27following
17:27the invasion
17:28of Ukraine.
17:29foreign journalists
17:30are being forced
17:31to basically
17:32shut up their bureaus
17:33and either leave
17:35or simply
17:36cease reporting.
17:37At that time
17:38you know
17:38the Wall Street Journal
17:39had decided
17:40that we would
17:41stay put
17:41but many companies
17:42decided that
17:43rather than
17:44take a chance
17:45remain in the country
17:46and have their
17:47reporters subjected
17:49to possible
17:50detention
17:51or harassment
17:52they would remove
17:54their reporters.
17:54dozens and dozens
17:57of people
17:57working for BBC
17:58Russian
17:58took the decision
17:59to pull out
18:00of Moscow
18:00and move
18:02to Riga
18:02and London
18:03and suddenly
18:04the office
18:05became very empty.
18:08Four or five years ago
18:10you would have seen
18:10a bustling news
18:12buzzing.
18:13It was the Russian
18:14service broadcasting
18:15in Russian
18:16to a Russian audience
18:17and that put them
18:17at a particular risk
18:19in terms of
18:20the Russian authorities.
18:21so they've moved
18:23out of Moscow.
18:26I was broadcasting
18:27in English
18:29to an audience
18:29outside of Russia
18:31so I calculated
18:33that that
18:34perhaps would have
18:34been perceived
18:35less of a threat
18:36by the authorities
18:38and so
18:39we stayed.
18:42Yes, of course
18:43all kinds of things
18:44go through your head.
18:46Nobody knew
18:47what was going to happen
18:48from hour to hour.
18:50The arrest
18:50of a journalist
18:51is having
18:52a chilling effect
18:53on the few
18:53Western reporters
18:54who remain
18:55inside of Russia.
18:57Evan Gershkovich
18:58arrested on
18:59spying charges.
19:01When I realised
19:02that it was
19:03my Wall Street Journal
19:04colleague, Evan
19:05that was the worst
19:06day of my life.
19:08You don't want
19:08any of your colleagues
19:09to be harmed
19:10and you certainly
19:10don't want
19:11any of your colleagues
19:11to be detained.
19:15Evan had gone
19:16to the city
19:17of Yekaterinburg
19:18in southern Russia
19:19to report a story.
19:20But the Russians
19:22were saying
19:23that Evan
19:23was gathering
19:25information
19:26about some kind
19:27of military
19:27installations
19:28and so therefore
19:30they accused him
19:31of spying.
19:31of course that allegation
19:50is completely false.
19:52there was no way
19:55I would have even
19:56have guessed
19:57at that time
19:57that he would have
19:58spent 16 months
20:00in a Russian prison.
20:03As soon as
20:04I saw Evan
20:05in that cage
20:07I realised
20:09that that could happen
20:09to any Western journalist.
20:11It was a reminder
20:12that we were operating
20:13in a dangerous situation.
20:16suddenly I found
20:20myself
20:20trying to feel
20:21my way
20:22through
20:22a distorted reality.
20:26Everything is
20:27very unclear.
20:29You're not sure
20:29where the danger lies.
20:32What's going
20:32to happen next?
20:33And it still feels
20:35as if
20:36the red lines
20:37keep changing.
20:38No journalist
20:39is completely safe
20:40in Russia today.
20:42If you say
20:43the wrong thing
20:44if you cross
20:45the line
20:45that the Kremlin
20:46doesn't like
20:46you could be
20:48easily
20:48detained
20:49deported
20:51intimidated.
21:08Today
21:08due to
21:09the present situation
21:10we have
21:11just
21:12five
21:12members of staff
21:13for a news gathering
21:14in Russia.
21:16And because
21:16we're such a small team
21:17it's tough sometimes.
21:21Since the start
21:27of the war
21:28the freedom
21:29to do
21:30independent journalism
21:32has changed.
21:35I mean
21:36it's the job
21:36of a journalist
21:37isn't it
21:37to go up
21:38to people
21:38to ask
21:39their opinion
21:40but one
21:41of the biggest
21:41problems
21:42we face
21:42now
21:43is getting
21:44people to
21:44speak to us.
21:51People are
21:56worried about
21:57speaking to the BBC
21:57and that's a reflection
21:59of the situation
22:00we're in.
22:01This tension
22:01between Russia
22:02and the West.
22:03If he runs away
22:04ask him
22:04why are you running
22:05away?
22:06I think.
22:09This famous
22:13Russian
22:13political scientist
22:14told me
22:14to go to hell.
22:15I just
22:16wanted to ask
22:16how concerned
22:16Russia is.
22:23So
22:24that was
22:26Fyodor Lukyanov
22:27a Russian
22:29political scientist
22:30who
22:30in years
22:31gone by
22:32very often
22:32gave interviews
22:34to the BBC
22:34but
22:35clearly has no
22:37interest
22:38in giving
22:38any more
22:39interviews
22:39to the BBC.
22:40some people
22:47feel that
22:48it's not worth
22:50the risk.
22:55Every day
22:56we're faced
22:57with challenges
22:57how on earth
22:58do we tell
22:59that story
22:59how do you
23:00get that
23:01point of view
23:01through
23:02and you have
23:03to find ways
23:04around it.
23:10As difficult
23:11as it is
23:12now
23:12reporting
23:13in Russia
23:13there are
23:14still places
23:15to go
23:15to understand
23:17what the
23:18leadership
23:18is thinking.
23:22So we're
23:23about to fly
23:23a thousand
23:24miles
23:24to the
23:25north
23:25to the
23:26Arctic
23:26Forum
23:27in
23:27Murmansk.
23:40and
24:01when with
24:01the
24:01view
24:02find
24:03the
24:03village
24:03when the arctic forum happened in murmansk that was a point where a lot of people were getting
24:14very excited about the potential for new deals between russia and america the white house talked
24:20about the need for improved bilateral relations between the united states and russia it said
24:24there are enormous economic deals and geopolitical stability to play for so we wanted to see what
24:31russian officials were saying about america and about the prospects of cooperation with washington
24:37in the arctic and in murmansk there was a very powerful figure former head of the fsb nikolai
24:48patrishov someone i have really wanted to speak to for like 20 years someone who's never agreed to
24:56give an interview to me so i had to chase him
25:01i'm not the tallest person in the world and it wasn't easy to get close to him
25:09it seemed as if it's not going to happen but if you want to get some comment from this someone
25:16and they walk away from you walk in their direction and just keep going
25:20sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't mostly it doesn't
25:30but there are occasions when it does work out
25:33you are surprised by the speed of the revolution in Russia in relation to Russia, Ukraine, Europe
25:40because many commentators on the West have noticed that many
25:45people of the states of the states of the states have repeated position in Russia now
25:50in Russia, Ukraine and China they want a peaks of it behind Mr with bubbles maybe what's with
25:56these points and the services came down between Russia?
25:59now that he is a part of the Wall Street China theweitens of Russia and was always being
26:07worse than what the government was hitting rule she came down between Russia and Martin
26:12she stayed in front of Russia it was immediately and it looked at the university when the
26:15was saying. The Trump administration has an opposing view to the Democrats, which just
26:21happens to be a more positive one about Russia.
26:24It doesn't mean that they are holding the views of Russia. They have their own opinions,
26:33they are moving them and we can collaborate with them.
26:36Thank you. Thank you.
26:38It wasn't a full-scale interview, but it was interesting to hear from a man who is very
26:41close to Vladimir Putin, even though he was couching it in very cautious language. Moscow
26:46saw that in the White House, now there is a US president who wants a better relationship
26:54with Moscow. Russia saw an opportunity here.
26:59And that was interesting because it was a time when Donald Trump had mentioned about acquiring
27:04Greenland.
27:05President Trump has been saying he wants to take control of Greenland as US territory,
27:10and he's refused to rule out using force.
27:12I think we're going to get it. One way or the other, we're going to get it.
27:16There have been a lot of international criticism of Donald Trump for the comments he'd made
27:21about Greenland.
27:23Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
27:27And so at the Arctic Forum, you could feel the sense of expectation ahead of Putin's big
27:33keynote address.
27:34Putin just made the point of, we're not going to get in the way.
27:46Putin just made the point of, we're not going to get in the way.
27:48I think the message to Donald Trump was, geopolitically, what you do is your business.
28:06And we're not going to interfere.
28:08And the subtext of that is, don't interfere with what we're doing, with what Russia's doing,
28:13in our backyard.
28:14So it seemed to play into this sense that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump were building
28:21this new relationship, and it was all positive, it was all very complimentary.
28:27When you're ready, my friend.
28:36Moscow has been talking up the idea of economic cooperation.
28:40Towards the end of the trip to Murmansk, when we were filming on the street, we got the sense
28:46that we were being watched.
28:48And not only tourists.
28:56There's moments like this that you get the feeling that you're being followed.
29:00This chap has been hanging around us for a good 10 minutes or so.
29:05Clearly filming us, I think.
29:07Just another reminder, I think, to us that there's a lot of suspicion, certainly amongst
29:12the authorities, towards Western journalists.
29:16But it's interesting to see what their reaction is when you start filming them back.
29:19Oh, off he goes.
29:21As soon as I start talking about him.
29:23Very soon he disappeared off into a car and was gone.
29:28Dozens of kamikaze drones in the early hours of this morning, spreading their devastation
29:43and destruction.
29:46After this kind of hope that the war will end, things took a very different turn.
29:54Russia keeps launching such attacks, even when the whole world is calling on it to stop.
30:01It was very difficult to cover it because things kept flip-flopping.
30:06At one point it looked as if Donald Trump was starting to put pressure on Moscow for a quick peace deal.
30:14We want to see it end and I'm disappointed in President Putin because I thought we would have had a deal two months ago, but it doesn't seem to get there.
30:24And then suddenly he changed and the deadlines came and went and no, there was no pressure.
30:29All talk of a ceasefire seems to have stopped.
30:33We started putting back into our minds the idea that this war could take a lot longer to resolve.
30:44Then suddenly something happened that came completely out of the blue.
30:49We have some breaking news to bring to you now.
30:52President Trump says he'll meet his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, next week.
30:57This is very unlike Vladimir Putin, right?
31:00To suddenly drop everything and run off abroad for a meeting.
31:04But it looks like it's happening.
31:06And we were thinking, well, where are we going to go?
31:09The leaders are expected to meet on Friday in Alaska.
31:12The Alaska summit comes after months of phone calls and meetings.
31:15And suddenly we were in panic stations.
31:17It's just a week away, we had to find out how we'd get there, get all of our equipment there.
31:30We got on three different flights over the course of two days.
31:37And eventually we landed in Anchorage.
31:43Five days ago, I did not expect to be standing by us.
31:47Just us, Alaskan polar bears, covering this story.
31:53Welcome to Alaska.
32:07President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin are sent to meet today at a US military base in Anchorage, Alaska.
32:15What's going to happen today?
32:16What's going to happen today?
32:17What's going to happen today?
32:21I have absolutely no idea.
32:23But at least we'll be there where the action is happening.
32:28Sorry.
32:30Are you with Russian media?
32:31With the Russian media.
32:31Okay.
32:32You need to check in down here, please.
32:33Good.
32:34No filming right now, guys.
32:39If it's a bad meeting, it'll end very quickly.
32:41And if it's a good meeting, we're going to end up getting peace in the pretty near future.
32:46So this is where the press conference is going to be, right?
32:54It's interesting.
32:55Look, they've already got a slogan.
32:56So that must mean they are confident of agreeing on something.
32:59Russian commentators are calling the meeting historic, with some describing the meeting
33:13as a symbolic end to Putin's isolation in the West.
33:17It's very warm, isn't it?
33:18Yes.
33:19Arm, pat on the arm.
33:20Pat on the arm.
33:21Is that a pat on the arm back?
33:23Yes, there was a pat on the arm back.
33:24The optics suggested that the bromance was continuing, and these are two leaders who want
33:32to get on, and are ready to do a deal.
33:37Those crucial talks are underway now, and we should find out in a few hours' time whether
33:42the fighting in Ukraine might be about to end.
33:50It's nice to meet you, finally, after all this time.
33:53Coming out of the bubble that we exist in, in Russia, we meet colleagues who we don't
33:59usually get to meet.
34:00And that's nice, to actually interact with people.
34:03What do you make of it?
34:05I mean, it's bizarre, isn't it?
34:06Because we have absolutely no idea what's going on in there, or what time we're going
34:12to have a press conference, if we're going to have a press conference.
34:14And it's nice to remind myself, I'm not just alone.
34:19Very nice, that's nice.
34:20We expected the talks to go on for hours and hours.
34:26Right, I've got to get something to eat.
34:27Yeah.
34:27I'm fading fast.
34:29We were settling in for a six-hour wait.
34:32But I think about two and a half hours in, suddenly one of the Russian journalists said,
34:36it's happening.
34:37So everybody just bolted back into the press conference hall, and we tried to find, you
34:43know, the best seats possible.
34:44And there happened to be two empty seats on the front row.
34:48So we don't know yet how these talks have gone, but we do know that the Kronio is predicting
34:57that they would last maybe six or seven hours.
35:00They haven't.
35:02They last maybe half that time, so I don't know if we can read anything into that.
35:07We'll have to wait for their statements.
35:08Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States of America and the president
35:12of the Russian Federation.
35:16You could feel the sense of expectation, the buzz, everyone waiting to find out what Putin
35:23and Trump had agreed in their talks.
35:25Vladimir Putin gave no sense in his statement that he was prepared to make any compromise.
35:47There were many, many points that we agreed on.
35:55Most of them, I would say, a couple of big ones that we haven't quite got there.
36:01Donald Trump had wanted Russia to sign up to an unconditional ceasefire, and it became
36:07very clear that Vladimir Putin hadn't agreed to that.
36:17And then after the two statements from the two presidents, that's it.
36:21End of event.
36:22No questions, no press conference, and they leave the stage.
36:28And you could feel the shock amongst the journalists.
36:32You know, this hum, this buzz of, what on earth's going on?
36:35Nobody would speak to us.
36:47They wouldn't utter a word to us.
36:50And we just looked at each other and said, well, what was that?
36:53There should be a wider format.
36:55Because we expected, yeah, a wider meeting of the delegations.
36:59But I think the Alaska summit did trigger alarm bells in Kiev.
37:03Because Donald Trump went into that summit intending to get Vladimir Putin to stop the fighting.
37:10But afterwards, Donald Trump wasn't talking about a ceasefire anymore.
37:14He was repeating the Russian narrative, calling for a final peace deal.
37:20And as far as the Kremlin is concerned, that deal should be on Russia's terms.
37:24When I'm going back to Russia, on the one hand, I'm, you know, excited because I'm eager to find out what's going to happen next.
37:42But there's always that thought at the back of my head, what's going to happen, you know, when you arrive.
37:49I think it's only when you come out of Russia that you realize how much stress there is, actually.
37:55The political situation, the military situation sometimes feels as if we're on some kind of, you know, nuclear submarine a long way from shore.
38:05And, you know, something goes wrong, there's not a lot that people on the shore can do to kind of help us.
38:14It feels quite lonely out there.
38:18But, I mean, I want to go back because it's a country that I, you know, fell in love with a long time ago.
38:35I grew up in Chinkford, in London, and I think the first time I came across Russia was when the BBC broadcast a Russian-language TV series in 1980.
38:56And I sat there transfixed.
38:58I fell in love with the language. It was a lovely language.
39:14I started visiting Russia in 1987.
39:18And this was a time when Russia was in the news and this mysterious country, you know,
39:24the Soviet Union was suddenly opening up to the world.
39:30In 1991, I went to Moscow to teach English and a few months later, the Soviet Union fell apart.
39:44Complete drama, totally unexpected.
39:48And there was such excitement in the country.
39:54For me, it was the start of an incredible adventure.
39:58And by the mid-1990s, I was working as a journalist in Moscow.
40:03And I got a call out of the blue.
40:10And it was from someone asking me to take part in a comedy show, of all things.
40:15The White Parrot on Russian state TV.
40:17That is one of the most happy memories I have of the last 30 years.
40:30It was set in this pub in Moscow with Russian TV stars telling each other jokes about Britain, sort of English humour.
40:46There was this great atmosphere of friendship.
40:57And I really felt it.
41:00And I remember they said, would you sing something British?
41:04And that's the first thing that came to mind, got Daisy Daisy.
41:07Which doesn't say a lot about my musical taste, does it?
41:10But actually, thinking back, that's how I felt at the time.
41:16You know, Russia and Britain, Russia and the West were like on this bicycle made for two.
41:21But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle made for two.
41:27Well, when I think back to the 1990s, I can't help feeling sad.
41:34Because fast forward to today, and it's a very different time.
41:39I just sent you a link.
41:44I've got to watch this.
41:48The driver saw this on Russian TV.
41:51Соловьев?
41:52Yeah.
41:52TV show host said, why haven't we kicked out the BBC?
42:14Why haven't we kicked out Steve Rosenberg?
42:16I mean, I don't know what a defecating squirrel looks like, but I'm certainly not an enemy of Russia.
42:35I don't go in here saying things about him.
42:41I will now.
42:44No, I won't.
42:45With the BBC.
42:47I think we don't rise to it.
42:48No, with the BBC we have to know.
42:51I'll try to be sad.
42:53That's not nice when you hear yourself described as an enemy of Russia.
42:57What a cheek.
43:02Steve's shown on state TV regularly as a propagandist from Britain.
43:07I'm the obnoxious British reporter Steve Rosenberg.
43:16Sometimes it gets quite personal.
43:26I'm the obnoxious British reporter Steve Rosenberg.
43:28You're shaping the perception and the perception that Russia is guilty.
43:32That's what you're doing.
43:33And this is propaganda.
43:34I'm sorry.
43:35I'm sorry to say this.
43:36You are a piece of propaganda.
43:38Hello, Steve.
43:40Question from Sputnik News.
43:41Why hasn't the BBC reported on Ukrainian war crimes in Kursk?
43:45For some reason, the Russian authorities wouldn't allow us to go down to Kursk.
43:50Steve is one of the very few international journalists that regular Russians can actually put a face to a name.
43:58He's on state TV all the time.
44:02Propagandist BBC, Steve Rosenberg.
44:05It's a daily staple programme.
44:08They look at the bulletins that have gone out.
44:09They look at what Steve said.
44:11And they try and cherry pick certain lines completely out of context to try and prove that there's some kind of conspiracy against Russia.
44:20Of course, this messaging that you hear on Russian state television doesn't automatically turn all Russians into haters of the West.
44:32But it's full on.
44:34And these kind of ideas have been projected by the Russian state media for some time now.
44:42And it does affect how some people think.
44:45...has reappeared.
44:50You have to remember that there are people that support Vladimir Putin and his full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
45:03And more than that, some of them are willing to put their lives on the line.
45:07And I think it's important we try and show that.
45:09One sequence that we wanted to film in Vladivostok was with a para-ice hockey team made up of war veterans.
45:29So I was pretty relieved by the time we got there to see that, actually, they were willing to talk to us.
45:31So I was pretty relieved by the time we got there to see that, actually, they were willing to talk to us.
45:35So I was pretty relieved by the time we got there to see that, actually, they were willing to talk to us.
45:41So, in this case, it was a gentleman that was mobilized into the Russian army and fought in Ukraine,
46:11...and his nuns no longer a member of the military, which was why he was allowed to speak to us.
46:18What was happening with you in the Russian army?
46:23Oh, a gun came up over there.
46:26Yes.
46:27I fell down.
46:30It's strange that my leg is burning.
46:33I look, everything turned out, I was getting hurt.
46:37I was getting hurt.
46:38I was getting hurt.
46:39I was getting hurt.
46:40They were trying to get hurt.
46:41But they were still in the hospital.
46:43My wife is a doctor.
46:45I made her photos of my leg.
46:48She said, well, she was going to take care of them.
46:50I said, well, okay.
46:51She's a doctor.
46:52She's a doctor.
46:53She's a doctor.
46:54She's a doctor.
46:55She's a doctor.
46:56Yes.
46:57One of the things that shocked me was the matter-of-fact way he talks about his injuries,
47:02as if nothing major had happened.
47:04I was a doctor, a doctor, a doctor, a doctor, and a doctor.
47:08I don't know.
47:13I was not a doctor at that time.
47:16I was positive.
47:18It was quite a challenging experience because there was his human story about how he'd been injured.
47:30But, of course, I had to remind myself that these servicemen had been part of an invasion force.
47:37Russia had invaded Ukraine.
47:39How important is the meaning of victory in sport, in life and on the front?
47:46It's impossible.
47:47It will be.
47:48And we have to bring her closer.
47:49And after us, it will bring her closer.
47:51So, I think it's impossible.
47:54For journalists in interview.
47:55And many people.
47:56Do we agree with the views of all the people we interview?
47:59No, we don't.
48:00But if we don't interview people we don't agree with, and we just shut ourselves off, that doesn't help so much our understanding, I think, of the situation.
48:13Our deal is right. The fight will be destroyed. The victory will be for us. I am proud of you.
48:43It is having an impact on the population. People who may not have a VPN to log on to outside sources of news will say, this is the reason why we need to be defending ourselves by, you know, going into Ukraine because the West wants to use Ukraine against Russia.
49:12The world view is that right now, Europe is an enemy of Russia.
49:19But if Europe wants to fight on it and starts, we are ready right now.
49:25We are entering right now, I think, a dangerous period for Europe because the Kremlin can see changes in the geopolitical situation.
49:36America under Donald Trump is super critical of the European Union.
49:41We will actually, for real, get our allies and partners to step up and do their part.
49:47We will no longer tolerate free-riding. Allies that still fail to do their part for collective defence will face consequences.
49:54There are people who question whether Donald Trump is fully committed to America within NATO.
50:03And a NATO without America isn't really NATO.
50:07So it's a dangerous cocktail for Europe and for the world.
50:13So, what, it's 7.50 in the morning and we're off to Vladimir Putin's end-of-year press conference again.
50:28There's no guarantee we'll get a question, but I hope I do, because, I mean, it's been quite a year.
50:37Well, his spokesman yesterday said that he'd be prepared to speak for six and a half hours.
50:43As far as Russia is concerned, this is a major event, but you have to be aware that, in an increasingly authoritarian system,
50:52the format lends itself to the Kremlin being in control of the message.
50:58And so, to a large extent, it's a choreographed event.
51:06But you can be there and not just be a propaganda tool of the authorities.
51:12And so, with all this tension swirling around and sort of saber-rattling off the scale now between Russia and the West,
51:25I wanted to ask the President how he sees Russia's future.
51:29What will you plan for your future?
51:31What will you plan for your country for your country?
51:36Will there be a search of enemies and internal and internal?
51:45Will there be new special operations?
51:50Interestingly, Vladimir Putin said, no, there won't be more special military operations, as long as you respect Russia,
52:05which raises the question, well, what if he believes that the West is not respecting Russia enough?
52:24Then, what follows is there will be more special military operations, perhaps.
52:31Vladimir Putin doesn't believe that he can be a partner with the current crop of European leaders.
52:44And he can see that Europe is in a difficult position right now, because ideologically, Europe seems far apart from the Trump administration.
53:05And that is helping to fuel, I think, the Kremlin's confidence at this moment.
53:10Putin has gone for broke to try to turn the tables and change the European security infrastructure.
53:18He's crossed a big Rubicon, and it's hard to see him going back now the other way.
53:25I would love the opportunity to interview Vladimir Putin.
53:44But even with one question and one answer, that tells you something, I think, about the person giving the answer.
53:53And it's a reminder of why I think it's vitally important to hang on and continue my reporting from Russia.
54:02How long was that? Four and a half then, was it?
54:05It was about four and a half hours, right?
54:07Russia's the biggest country in the world. It's got a massive nuclear arsenal.
54:12So we need to understand what the leadership is thinking and doing and what Russians, I think, are thinking and doing.
54:22Especially now, at a time of heightened tension between Russia and the West.
54:28At least four people have been killed in the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv, after a night of intense Russian airstrikes across Ukraine.
54:46It was the most intensive night of Russian bombing since the turn of the year.
54:54It's easy to be pessimistic when you look at what's happening to Russia.
54:59But I remain optimistic that things will change for the better.
55:06Because if you look at what's happened going back over the decades, Russia has swung between periods of terrible dictatorship to periods of thaw, of democratization and back again.
55:21So, history teaches us that as difficult as things seem in the moment, life will change and go in a different direction.
55:32It's this double-headed eagle situation there, the Russian national symbol.
55:37One head is growling and barking and calling you a defecating squirrel.
55:46And the other head is smiling and wanting to take a selfie with you.
55:53It's not a case that all Russians support the war.
56:02Being here, I think, allows us to show there's nuance.
56:07Can you ask me?
56:09BBC Moscow.
56:11And most of the interactions I have with Russians on the streets are positive.
56:18I've met, in 30 years, so many warm, friendly people.
56:30It's little encounters like this that makes it worthwhile being here.
56:36Just little things like this.
56:39And it's these interactions with people that give me hope that, as awful as the last four years would be, that actually when we get through this, there will be a basis to restore some kind of a relationship with Russia.
56:56However, I don't kid myself.
56:59I have no illusions that this could end tomorrow.
57:03There are lots of things that could knock you off the tightrope if you don't keep calm.
57:09But I want to carry on.
57:11It's not about courage or bravery.
57:15Courage doesn't come into it, I don't think, really.
57:18I remain fascinated by Russia.
57:24And want to know how this is going to end.
57:27A powerful documentary follows four women's quest to bring a serial abuser to justice.
57:42Lover, liar, predator on BBC Two now.
57:46Here on BBC One, a brand new series of Silent Witness next.
57:50Silent Witness next.
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