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00:00You
00:05I'm professor David Wilson
00:08As a criminologist
00:10I'm often asked
00:12What's it like to interview a murderer?
00:15As you can see here
00:18Everything in this room is audio taped
00:20To answer this question
00:22I'm going to take you on a journey
00:25Into the dark heart
00:26Of the police interrogation room
00:30Using cutting-edge lip-sync technology
00:33We'll bring to you
00:35Into life
00:35The actual taped confessions
00:37Of some of the worlds
00:40Most notorious killers
00:41I put tape on her mouth
00:42I held it there
00:43So she couldn't breathe
00:45And bring you
00:46Face to face
00:47With evil
00:48I felt sick
00:50Look at him
00:51Knowing
00:52What he did
00:55And along with
00:56Forensic psychologist
00:57Professor Michael Brooks
01:00I'll analyse their interviews
01:02In unparalleled detail
01:05Her skull gave way
01:07A little bit
01:07Jesus
01:10Is that they're
01:10Immediately unconscious
01:11They're wicked words
01:14Now
01:15Seen spoken
01:15For the very first time
01:17Will never be forgotten
01:20So I didn't suggest to him
01:22That we kill her on Sunday
01:23But I knew that she
01:25I knew that she had to
01:27Be gone
01:30He had to
01:32That was probably the same
01:32But he had to
01:33I knew that she had to
01:35Episode 11
01:35About a new life
01:36Of what the hell
01:36Of what what the hell
01:37Is he was
01:38He pointed at him
01:39Come on
01:41He made to a third time
01:43For the world
01:44To be nominated
01:45He made to be女
01:48So he努 strongly
01:49I أع累
01:50And he killed him
01:51He made to be
01:52So he turned out
01:53He said
01:54You did
01:55So he tried
01:56He turned back
01:58He did
01:58that I've ever come across in the most shocking case of multiple part
02:03in our violence in Canadian history.
02:06This 57-year-old man drove...
02:08...from house to house, fatally shooting two women and strangling another.
02:13The pattern of his crimes mean that we classify him as a spree killer.
02:18Someone who kills two or more victims in a short time in multiple...
02:23...locations.
02:24What makes this case particularly disturbing is...
02:28...is that the killer was known to all of his victims and to the police for as long...
02:33...history of violence against women.
02:36He'd in fact only be...
02:38...being freed from prison a matter of months before his bloody rampage.
02:43Not only are his crimes appalling, but so is his level of...
02:48...justification for having committed them.
02:51His police confession which...
02:53...runs to over five hours...
02:55...is a rambling and at times incohen-
02:58...hearant sermon filled with self-justification and an attempt to...
03:03change himself as a missionary killer.
03:05...doing God's work and following the...
03:08word of the scriptures. Hiding behind his religious belief, he
03:13interprets the pages of the Bible to serve his own hate-filled actions.
03:18Despite three women lying dead, he wants to paint himself as a victim.
03:23Refusing to accept any blame whatsoever.
03:28Is this scorned man for whom hell hath no fury?
03:33Basil Borutsky.
03:35On September 23rd, 2000
03:382015, Basil Borutsky was led to an interview room by Ontario...
03:43...provincial police.
03:45It was the morning after he'd been arrested on...
03:48...in suspicion of the murder of three of his former partners in a shocking...
03:53...one-day killing rampage in Renfrew County, Ontario.
03:58Just so you know, Basil, this room...
04:00...right now it's being audio and video recorded.
04:02Is it okay to call you Basil?
04:03Basil?
04:04Do you know what your rights are, Basil?
04:06Do you know what your rights are, Basil?
04:07I mean...
04:08...I think you're here trying to get me to say something to incriminate...
04:13...that you made any way you must begin.
04:14Well...
04:15...that's not entirely true.
04:18My understanding of the reason that you're here today...
04:21...is that...
04:23...yesterday...
04:24...you were arrested for murder times three.
04:28Basil Borutsky was convicted for the murders of three women in Canada.
04:33All three of these women were actually ex-girlfriends of his.
04:36My understanding is that...
04:38...the three individuals that were murdered are Carol Culleton...
04:42...and...
04:43...Anastasia Kouziek...
04:45...and...
04:46...Natalie Wormway.
04:47And those are...
04:48...the three individuals that were murdered...
04:49...and those are the three individuals that you've been arrested for.
04:51Okay?
04:52So...
04:53...so that's why you're here today.
04:54So do you understand...
04:55...that those are the charges that are being...
04:58We're out against you again.
05:00Do you have any questions about that?
05:03No, I didn't murder anybody.
05:05Basil Borovski is an interesting...
05:08...case.
05:09He is a man who is a classic stalker in what he was doing.
05:13Having been rejected by several of his former lovers, he...
05:18...he couldn't cope with that and ended up basically...
05:21...taking their lives in revenge.
05:23If you'd like to phone a lawyer...
05:25...for killing them or...
05:27...for killing them...
05:28...for killing them or murder, okay.
05:29And if you didn't understand it, you'd know the difference between killing and...
05:33...the murder, there's an awful big difference.
05:36He didn't see it murder as...
05:38...taking somebody's life, legally taking somebody's life, which is what he did.
05:42He just...
05:43...and said, oh, under the Bible, killing and murder are two separate things.
05:47And I've...
05:48...he killed these women, but I haven't murdered them.
05:50What's the difference between killing and murder?
05:52That'll show.
05:53No.
05:54Murder.
05:55Commandments.
05:56Mm-hmm.
05:57So it's killing and death.
05:58Is that what you're getting at?
05:59Is that what you're getting at?
06:03I'm joined by Professor Michael Brooks in his long and illustrious career.
06:08As a prison psychologist, Michael has sat and listened to many murderers.
06:13And experienced first-hand the mind games they'll play.
06:18You know, this is...
06:23This is very serious, and therefore one shouldn't...
06:28in any way trivialise it.
06:31But do you think that Basil...
06:33Borutski is a kind, caring god...
06:38god-fearing human being?
06:40Not by his actions, no.
06:43So, by his actions, three women die.
06:47He refuses to call...
06:48what happens to them, though...
06:50murder.
06:51He uses the word killing and...
06:53instead, and then cites...
06:55there being a biblical reason for using that.
06:58Well, he's seeking to justify his actions...
07:01and to minimise what he did.
07:03as the perpetrator...
07:04and to put all the blame onto them...
07:06and their actions.
07:08and that they caused him to do this.
07:13I think he has deluded himself at this point.
07:18to where he believes that...
07:20the difference between murder and killing is...
07:23that murder would be wrong...
07:25and killing would be right.
07:28I think with a lot of serial killers...
07:29you tend to get them manipulating...
07:31things like the Bible.
07:33to their own needs.
07:34So, they'll read into things...
07:35that aren't ordinarily there...
07:37that most people...
07:38would read and understand.
07:39It's interesting how you made...
07:40the distinction between murder...
07:41It's interesting how you made the distinction...
07:42between murder and murder...
07:43and killing.
07:44What that would suggest...
07:45is that you have some kind of justification...
07:46of what you've done...
07:47which...
07:48it's also...
07:48been my experience...
07:49is always the case.
07:51He was brought up...
07:52with a religious background...
07:53and would have been common...
07:54at that time.
07:55And I think quite clearly...
07:57he's taken...
07:58literal meanings...
08:00out of the Bible...
08:01rather than actually...
08:03look at the ethos...
08:04behind...
08:05his action.
08:08his presentation of Bible...
08:10verses...
08:11to justify...
08:12what he's done.
08:13is desperation.
08:14He needs...
08:15to be the one in the right.
08:17That's...
08:18absolutely typical...
08:19of somebody...
08:20whose life is shaped...
08:21and driven...
08:22by a revenge scenario.
08:23narrative.
08:24What matters to them...
08:25above all else...
08:26is that...
08:27they are in the right.
08:28well...
08:29one of the reasons...
08:30I'm...
08:31also here...
08:32maybe so.
08:33is that...
08:34I'm sure you're aware...
08:35to grab you...
08:36the situation...
08:37and the seriousness...
08:38of this investigation.
08:38I certainly am...
08:39given that...
08:40you've been arrested...
08:41for these crimes.
08:42There are more.
08:43no more serious crimes...
08:44than murder.
08:45They didn't murder anybody.
08:46That's right...
08:47you killed someone...
08:48correct?
08:49killed three people...
08:50actually.
08:53the way in which...
08:54Basil...
08:55refuses...
08:56to...
08:57have...
08:58his actions...
08:59defined as...
09:00murder...
09:01shows how...
09:02what he's done...
09:03is driven by...
09:03this Revenger narrative.
09:04the thing when a Revenger narrative...
09:06is activated...
09:07when a Revenger.
09:08and narrative develops is that the actor genuinely believes.
09:13That he is in the right.
09:16Everything that he then does...
09:18is justified by what has been done to him previously.
09:21It becomes a mission.
09:23To rectify that, to right the wrong that has been done.
09:26So in terms of...
09:28Carol, Anastasia and Natalie, would you say you killed them or murdered them?
09:33Because they were not innocent.
09:38You could see a kind of angry, self-righteous, deluded vindication.
09:43Going on there.
09:44They were guilty.
09:46I was in...
09:48It's a pattern that remained consistent with him.
09:51I don't...
09:53Nothing.
09:54No.
09:55Basil Brzezki is a kind character.
09:58God-fearing.
09:59God-fearing.
10:00Human being.
10:03When he talks about himself in an interview about being a nice, kind, God-fearing man...
10:08Again, that's denial.
10:09And he's trying to convince himself that that's what he is.
10:12All important.
10:13He's trying to convince the detectives that that's what he is.
10:16Probably somewhere deep down inside.
10:18Was somebody who once was a kind, caring man.
10:21Carol.
10:22Carol.
10:23Carol.
10:23Carol.
10:24Carol.
10:25Carol.
10:26Carol.
10:28Carol.
10:29Carol.
10:30Carol.
10:31Carol.
10:33Carol.
10:33Carol.
10:35Carol.
10:36Carol.
10:37Carol.
10:38Carol.
10:38Carol.
10:39Carol.
10:40Carol.
10:41Carol.
10:42Carol.
10:43Carol.
10:44Carol.
10:45Carol.
10:46Carol.
10:47Carol.
10:48Carol.
10:49Carol.
10:50Carol.
10:51Carol.
10:52Carol.
10:53Carol.
10:54Carol.
10:55Carol.
10:56Carol.
10:57Carol.
10:58Carol.
10:59Carol.
11:00Carol.
11:01Carol.
11:02Carol.
11:03Carol.
11:04Carol.
11:05Carol.
11:06Carol.
11:07Carol.
10:43having taken the lives of those three girls.
10:46What was done to you?
10:47Lift the connector.
10:48If the community wanted to know, they would start an industry.
10:53If there had been the inquiry, look into the past, how did it ever evolve to get to...
10:58He is killing these women because he...
11:03He has been their victim and it is a kind of...
11:08Righteous Revenge.
11:13As the interview progresses...
11:18It becomes clear that Baritski is not willing to accept any blame for...
11:23His crimes.
11:24He is determined to paint himself as the victim.
11:28Playing the victim is a common ploy amongst killers and they claim victim...
11:33For a variety of reasons.
11:35It allows them to justify the abuse of others.
11:38And also serves as a coping strategy for them when they are under...
11:43The pressure to reveal the truth.
11:46As a means of justification...
11:48Baritski frequently tries to hide behind his religious beliefs.
11:53But his interpretation of the scriptures is as flawed as his logic.
11:58But little by little, the interviewing detective is soon able to...
12:03Start extracting the facts of what happened on the day the women were...
12:08Murdered.
12:09The very fact of which means any defence for Roots...
12:13Baritski has constructed in his own mind is utterly preposterous.
12:18Like I said, this is a difficult road you've chosen here.
12:22Why are you...
12:23Doing this just to prove a point.
12:25Is there not some other way...
12:27All these...
12:28All these women...
12:30That have slated you...
12:31Or lied to you in some way...
12:32Cheered.
12:33And...
12:34You've killed them all.
12:36I...
12:37Don't.
12:38Know...
12:39What...
12:40Happened...
12:41I...
12:42Know...
12:43What...
12:44Happened...
12:45I...
12:46Know...
12:47What...
12:48Happened...
12:49I...
12:50Know...
12:51What...
12:52Happened...
12:53I...
12:54Know...
12:55What...
12:56Happened...
12:57I...
12:58Know...
12:59What...
13:00Happened...
13:01I...
13:02Know...
13:03What...
13:04Happened...
13:05I...
13:06Know...
13:07What... Happened...
12:43was reading the Bible the night before the future.
12:48You go to my house, there's three Bibles right on the coffee table.
12:53When he was interviewed by the police,
12:55it was almost like he was giving a sermon, preaching a sermon.
12:58And he talked about religion, he talked about the religious aspect of his life.
13:03And what was right and what was wrong in his own mind.
13:06He talked about the crowns, but he performed.
13:08Almost like an entertainer, if you like.
13:10He'd got this audience in the room, interview room with him.
13:13And he knew that this was his opportunity to tell everybody what he was...
13:18all about and what his own beliefs were.
13:21I haven't slept in yet.
13:23The days, everything was going anywhere.
13:27And I was talking.
13:28I was talking to the crisis people.
13:30I'm trying to get help.
13:31Somebody, I need somebody to talk to.
13:33I got nothing.
13:34I got nothing.
13:35I got nothing.
13:36I went to know that you've done nothing.
13:38I got nothing wrong.
13:39All I remember was going to sleep, but I don't even remember what was.
13:43And then I woke up.
13:44I remember, God's helping me do what's right.
13:48I remember.
13:49I remember.
13:53God's seeing.
13:54I'm not seeing.
13:55I'm not seeing.
13:58God never spoke to me.
13:59I remember thinking.
14:01God never spoke to me.
14:02I remember thinking.
14:03Hazel says that he hadn't slept that night at all, and he claims that...
14:08really, he can't remember much of anything about that day, except for driving to Carroll.
14:13Luke.
14:14Terry emphiles.
14:15Lakeside cottage.
14:16Greg makesix
14:36Carl walked right outside.
14:41Carl walked right outside.
14:44Carl walked right outside.
14:46When he got there,
14:49Carol came out.
14:51She got out of her cottage and she saw Basil.
14:54And the two started to have a bit of an argument.
14:56He went to the house to confront her because...
15:01She felt as though she'd been unfaithful to him
15:03during their relationship.
15:05I said...
15:06Why do you eat me?
15:09Jesus says to him,
15:10Look...
15:11Basil, this isn't you.
15:13This isn't you.
15:14But he still pursues her.
15:16She locks herself in the property.
15:18She closed the door.
15:20I was right there.
15:21And I broke the window with my elbow.
15:24And I reached in and I went to the...
15:26She's not able to appeal to his better side.
15:29He's obsessed with the fact that she's...
15:31She's cheated him.
15:36When she says to him,
15:39Leave me alone.
15:40I just don't...
15:41I don't want you in my life.
15:42He explodes.
15:45What's he doing?
15:46When she was inside,
15:47Carol really had nowhere she could go.
15:50He broke in.
15:51And then saw TV, cord, cable.
15:53And managed to put that round her throat.
15:56And there was a...
15:59A cable.
16:00A cable.
16:01And killed my rattle around.
16:02Death.
16:03And killed my rattle around.
16:04Death.
16:07And while she was immobilized,
16:08He then strangled her to death with it.
16:10And left...
16:11And killed her body there.
16:12For the real estate agent to find.
16:15It's part of...
16:16It's possible.
16:17This is speculative.
16:18That the intimacy of the strangulation...
16:20Perhaps...
16:21Dissipated some of the fury in him.
16:25But I don't know.
16:26Perhaps it was too personal.
16:27Perhaps it caught him up.
16:29But that doesn't really...
16:31Explain why he would then go on.
16:34Did you take me down on you, Carol?
16:35Yeah.
16:36Yes.
16:37I took it everywhere with me then.
16:39Until I dropped in the bush there.
16:41In a sense, using the gun against the other women was a more violent act.
16:46I don't know why he did it that way.
16:48I don't know what the significance of any of that was.
16:51He then immediately jumps in the car with his shotgun.
16:56He stole her car and then, during that journey...
17:01From that house to the next venue that he was going to attend.
17:04Which was another partner.
17:06He drove there and he was saying Hail Mary's.
17:08And he was praying to God and said that God...
17:11Was there with him and helping him do this.
17:14I remember I was confused...
17:16I remember saying to our father...
17:18He would pray over...
17:19Over...
17:20Over...
17:21Over...
17:22Over...
17:23Over...
17:24Over...
17:25Over...
17:26Over...
17:27Over...
17:28Over...
17:29Over...
17:30Over...
17:31Over...
17:32Over...
17:33Over...
17:34Over...
17:35Over...
17:36Over...
17:37Over...
17:38Over...
17:39Over...
17:40Over...
17:41Over...
17:42Over...
17:43Over...
17:44Over...
17:45Over...
17:46Over...
17:47Over...
17:48Over...
17:49Over...
17:50Over...
17:51by any of that. I don't believe these behaviours can just magically appear overnight.
17:56But the manifestations of them are new and unique in it.
18:01And there's an element of disassociation in terms of his description of what...
18:06what occurred and how he felt. So he's separating out what actually occurred.
18:11To how he's interpreting and feeling and dealing with the consequences of that upon himself.
18:16But he's still denying personal responsibility. He is...
18:21He's not saying I did, I shot, I pulled the trigger. He's saying the...
18:26Oil went round her head. The gun went off. These are...
18:31The techniques that he's using to distance himself from the horror...
18:36that he's just engaged in.
18:38Sure. Hence the disassociation.
18:40And what about this...
18:41There's an incredible amount of justification that the detective who's interviewing...
18:46is having to wade through.
18:47We have to remember that interview is a process that you start at one point and it can...
18:51lead at a different point. So people go through different stages of emotions, they go...
18:56through different levels of recalling and where he started off by minimising...
19:01completely his involvement and seeking to justify it.
19:04But I just want to go back...
19:06back to the idea of him saying, God keep me safe. He...
19:11was saying prayers as he went. This is a man for me who...
19:16feels he's on a mission. Sure, yes. I mean that's what he states at the moment.
19:21Let's just see what he continues to say. See whether he continues with this...
19:26line of thinking or whether it alters as the interview progresses.
19:29Okay, next clip.
19:31I'll see you in the next clip.
19:32I'll see you in the next clip.
19:33I'll see you in the next clip.
19:36I'll see you in the next clip.
19:39I'll see you in the next clip.
19:41I'll see you in the next clip.
19:41Anastasia way longer than Carl, but I treated Anastasia like a...
19:46She's a daughter, she's a friend, she lived in my house with...
19:51He has the critical additional humiliation...
19:56That the woman has now taken a new boyfriend, he comes out of jail...
20:01And they humiliate him...
20:04She went back on the boyfriend and she's laughing...
20:07She does all this to me, she'd even sit on my lap...
20:10He said, Basil...
20:12It's psychological, she's more like her daughter...
20:15And the trigger here...
20:16It was his ex-girlfriend sitting on the knee of another man.
20:21Which would have been like a red rag to a bull.
20:27And he took that as a personal insult...
20:29Even when she said, this is the new boy...
20:31This is a classic profile of...
20:36Someone who is effectively a variation on a domestic killing...
20:40A kind of retaliation...
20:41Revenge...
20:42Killing...
20:43Towards women who have rejected him.
20:46He drives about half an hour to Anastasia...
20:51Anastasia's home...
20:52And it's actually at this time that her sister is visiting...
20:55And...
20:56Her sister says that she heard Anastasia scream...
21:00Anastasia!
21:02And she heard her scream that Basil was there...
21:04And he had a gun...
21:06And he had a gun...
21:08And he had a gun...
21:10And he had a gun...
21:12He pursues...
21:14Anastasia with a shotgun...
21:16The poor sister...
21:16The poor sister has to flee...
21:17And here's the shot...
21:19The poor sister has to flee...
21:20And here's the shot...
21:21And he shot Anastasia...
21:24And he shot Anastasia...
21:26Almost point blank...
21:28I asked Anastasia...
21:30I just...
21:31And she said...
21:32Why did you lie on the board?
21:33And she said...
21:34I didn't...
21:35Lie...
21:37I...
21:38Never...
21:39Hit...
21:40That...
21:41Woman...
21:41I...
21:42I...
21:43I...
21:44...
21:45I...
21:46I...
21:47I...
21:48Why couldn't she just...
21:49Usted...
21:50I'm sorry...
21:51.
21:51Man, I'm sure not, it will stop.
21:55It's interesting.
21:56He has apparently claimed that he was a kind and caring individual.
22:01And I find that fascinating because his history doesn't support that at all.
22:06From 1977, when he was quite a young man, all the way through to 2000.
22:11It is a chronicle of abuse of women.
22:16And as far as we know, he had something like 14.
22:21Criminal convictions, including violence against Anastasia Warren.
22:26It is a chronicle of assault occasioning actual violence.
22:31Bodily harm, domestic abuse, assault, threats to kill.
22:36He had a tumultuous relationship with a wife for 26 years.
22:41During which he threatened to kill her and her children.
22:44Yet he ended up...
22:46...with a very short prison sentence and ended up spending only a few months...
22:51...in prison because he spent quite a long time on remand.
22:54He was supposed to...
22:56...to attend a living without violence programme...
22:58...which was for people who've got a history of domestic abuse.
23:01He never turned up for any of that.
23:03There were a number of parole restrictions on him.
23:05He wasn't supposed to...
23:06...to drive.
23:07He wasn't supposed to go to certain towns where one of the victims lived.
23:09He ignored all of that.
23:11He had already been banned for having a firearm for life.
23:16The victims themselves were warning the police.
23:21There were threats to kill.
23:22There was sufficient evidence there that this man was a...
23:26...serious risk of killing of extreme violence and those warning...
23:31...sounds went unheeded.
23:32I think without any shadow of a doubt this was all...
23:36...was going to happen in his life.
23:37There was going to come some point where that volcano that...
23:41...had been building up and simmering and simmering for years and years...
23:43...throughout his life was going to explode.
23:46I think it was going to be catastrophic.
23:51Nobody...
23:52...fucking...
23:53...this is to be...
23:54...nobody...
23:55...how...
23:56...nobody...
23:57...and I was not mine...
23:59...ever.
24:02No!
24:04Michael, what I'm interested in...
24:06...in this case is do you think it's domestic violence that's driving this case?
24:11...or do you think we should see him better from...
24:14...through the lens of...
24:16...being a spree killer?
24:17I think it's sort of interesting to explore whether this was spree killing or not.
24:21You mentioned in the beginning, could this be domestic violence?
24:24And somewhere it's in between because normally with spree...
24:26...it's a random assault against people that you don't really know.
24:30He knew...
24:31...with the people that he was killing.
24:32It was very deliberate.
24:33It wasn't random.
24:34And he...
24:36...he just perpetuated those killings against three key people in his life.
24:41As he now says in this, because he thinks he wronged them.
24:44Now I'm not sure whether that is spree killing or not.
24:46And whether it's linked more to domestic violence and justification of a violent act.
24:50But it's an...
24:51It's an interesting one to explore in terms of definitions around domestic violence and definitions around...
24:56...spree killers and their victims.
25:01In normal instances of domestic violence, it's all about control and power.
25:06And the abuser ordinarily likes to continue and keep that going.
25:11Because it gives them that satisfaction and that security.
25:14It's all based down to insecurities.
25:16What we're seeing here isn't a domestic...
25:20What we're seeing here isn't a domestic...
25:21...violence scenario.
25:22What we're seeing here is somebody who has...
25:26...developed a much deeper angry narrative.
25:31...indictive narrative against women.
25:33Believing that he's been wronged by women.
25:36And now being driven to seek his revenge.
25:41So it's an absolutely horrific morning.
25:43I think in terms of domestic abuse it's probably the worst...
25:46...day in Canadian history.
25:47...
25:52The early part of Borutsky's police interview is characterised by the
25:57attempt by the suspect to obfuscate and justify its little
26:02more than a rant against the authorities.
26:05The interviewing officer has to...
26:07...exercise extreme patience as he listens to this diatribe.
26:12And...
26:12...and patience is perhaps the most important virtue a police interviewer can have.
26:17Gradually, Borutsky begins offering an insight into...
26:22...the logic behind why he became a spree murderer.
26:26Allowing the investigating officer...
26:27...to piece together his actions on the day that led to the death.
26:32The deaths of three innocent women.
26:37He went to a third house and committed another murder again by...
26:42...a shooting.
26:43He drives to Natalie Warmerdam's.
26:47...property and once again murders her in cold blood.
26:52Natalie was home with her son that day.
26:55And her son has...
26:57...been too traumatised to speak about the events that unfolded.
27:00What he...
27:02...he told his sister...
27:03...was that he had heard his mum scream.
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