00:00Yeah, a few heads of state making the trip to Hamburg for this summit.
00:05Most among them was France's president.
00:08Relations between France and France.
00:10France's Emmanuel Macron and Germany's Friedrich Mertz have been.
00:15Of late, a bit, how should we put it?
00:19Can't.
00:20I'd say Janet Seuss is with us, researcher for the Committee for the Study of Franco-German
00:24Relations.
00:25At the French Institute of International Relations, IFRI, you've just published a study on.
00:30How Germany makes its European policy, there you see it.
00:35I said chaotic.
00:36Maybe it's not chaotic.
00:37Let's just say it's a...
00:40It's not the bromance we expected.
00:43And in the face...
00:45Last week of superpower pressures from Russia, but also...
00:50Also from the United States, other Europeans are worried.
00:54They want the...
00:55Germans and the French get along better.
00:57What are the points of discord here?
00:59So first of all, I...
01:00I would say that we are in this time, in this phase of the relationship maybe where...
01:05The relationship is put to a test, whereas in the beginning...
01:10One year ago, there was this bromance, this narrative about that very...
01:15Symbolic, of course, first meetings between Macron and Merz, but now as things...
01:20Are materializing and we have to put it down to break it down.
01:25To different aspects, be it in the economic field, in the trade field, in the defense sector...
01:30The cooperation, it's becoming more difficult because it's becoming concrete, but there's always been...
01:35Divergences, structural divergences between France and Germany, so we have...
01:40A very big divergence in the trade sector, where Germany advocates...
01:45For free trade deals all over the world and France is a bit more reluctant and a bit more...
01:50Sectionist, you could also say, from a German viewpoint, then you have the defense...
01:54Corporate...
01:55The cooperation, but we also do have some leeway when it comes to, for example...
02:00The cooperation in the energy sector, so there is also some positive signs...
02:03And also some common measures...
02:05That are announced for more EU competitiveness.
02:07All right, so let's break down the first two, because again, this is...
02:10It's all about Europe building up its self-reliance in the face...
02:15Of a US ally that is not as reliable to them as they want to be.
02:20That's what France was.
02:21On trade, the difference over Mercosur...
02:25Is that surmountable?
02:26I mean, anyway...
02:29The...
02:30The deal was adopted at the end in the Council of Ministers and France was bypassed.
02:35By the other member states.
02:37This was, of course, a tough...
02:40The situation between France and Germany, because Germany was hoping to be able...
02:45To convince France by giving in and by giving some...
02:50Some compromises by giving in to the concerns that they had.
02:55For the farmers especially and the demonstrations that were going.
03:00So there's of course a political pressure on the domestic side here.
03:05Germany didn't really convince Macron at the end.
03:07They had to give in to this political pressure.
03:10But there's other situations where we can see that.
03:15They both states are still pretty much aligned.
03:17So when it comes to Donald Trump they were both.
03:20In favor of having a clear stance towards the US for example.
03:24But Germany still has.
03:25This export driven model which the French don't have.
03:28So is that something that's.
03:30Insurmountable.
03:30And that's why it's easier for Germany to.
03:35Conclude these free trade agreements.
03:37Whereas for France it's a bit.
03:40A different story.
03:41But I think France is really worried about.
03:45About this agricultural sector.
03:46And Germany has other type of industries.
03:48Especially the automotive industry.
03:50Very export driven.
03:51So it has a hard time saying.
03:55It doesn't want to stop exporting.
03:58It really wants to continue exporting.
04:00Over the world of course.
04:01And then there's defense.
04:02Where the arguments run twofold.
04:04There's weather.
04:05Each side accuses the other of not leveling up enough.
04:08The French not spending enough.
04:10Are accused of not spending enough on Ukraine.
04:12The Germans accused of not spending enough.
04:15Period.
04:15And the two don't get along.
04:18When it comes to for instance.
04:20Plans to build weaponry together.
04:22Yeah.
04:22On the one hand.
04:23We can see that there is pretty much.
04:25Of an alignment when it comes to the rhetorical side.
04:27So there's this what Macron already.
04:30We said a strategic autonomy discourse going on since 2017.
04:35And Germany didn't really apply back in the day under Merkel or Scholz.
04:39And now.
04:40Friedrich Merz.
04:40He really welcomes this concept.
04:42He's also in favor of producing.
04:45More European based weapons systems as such.
04:48But when it comes to the concrete projects.
04:50Between France and Germany.
04:50So the F-CAS, the fighter jet.
04:52Future combat air system especially.
04:54And then we have.
04:55The MJCS, the main round combat system.
04:57Are both those projects dead?
04:59Dead.
05:00They're not dead.
05:00The tank project is a bit more reliable.
05:05However, for the F-CAS, the future combat air system.
05:08There is a very like.
05:10Hard competition going on.
05:11Because some people are saying Europe is facing an existential.
05:15crisis and that the last week, the threats against Greenland, what's happening in Ukraine are.
05:20There are existential crises and they feel as though they don't understand why the French and the Germans.
05:25Things aren't getting along.
05:25There's definitely a sense of urgency, I feel.
05:28However, yeah, there is this.
05:30Competition going on especially between Dessau on the one hand and Airbus.
05:35On the one on the other hand, then there's also the Spanish side in the Spanish part inside.
05:40So it's all a question about technological leadership, France.
05:45It's about losing its leadership, about losing its intellectual property and Germany.
05:50Having rather like a sense of wanting to share knowledge, to work together.
05:55collaboratively, but at the end just giving money without having necessarily.
06:00So last Friday, Friedrich Mertz goes to Rome.
06:05Sees Georgia Maloney, the far right head of a coalition.
06:10government and there extols that they can get along to.
06:15Together they can help to simplify Europe.
06:17The message was kind of like, is this the new.
06:20Motor for the EU or is France sidelined or what.
06:25What did you make of this Friday visit to Rome?
06:27I think it's rather complimentary because.
06:30What we have to put into context is and what we have to remember is that there has been.
06:35A dialogue going on already under the previous German government under Olaf Scholz.
06:40In 2023, Italy and Germany signed a bilateral agreement for an action plan.
06:45And now this is really an update of this action plan by materializing it into concrete.
06:50projects which are developed further.
06:52So of course, Italy and Germany have.
06:55A lot of things in common.
06:56There are major industrial powers within the EU.
06:58So sometimes it's a bit easier maybe.
07:00to collaborate in terms of industrial culture, but it can't replace the.
07:05Is the beating heart of the EU shifting from a Paris-Berlin axis to a Berlin roadmap?
07:10I wouldn't say that because we also have other actors within the EU.
07:13And we are seeing rather a.
07:15Multiplication of different.
07:17Different.
07:18Different forms.
07:19Different forms.
07:20Different.
07:21Different.
07:22Flexible.
07:23Formates within the EU.
07:24So it's rather.
07:25Millilateral.
07:25partners like the Weimar Triangle, Weimar Plus and we have E3 with the UK.
07:30Also super important in the defense corporation and then we have France and Italy.
07:35Now becoming important players, of course, because Merz also knows that the timeframe
07:40to shape European policy with Macron is quite limited as there will be president.
07:45The presidential elections taking place in 2027.
07:48How about ordinary Germans? Do they prefer to...
07:50Do business with the Italians than with the French?
07:52There is a very narrow business relationships between...
07:55Italy and Germany.
07:57You know, there's this kind of Republican firewall in Germany.
08:00That you have like in France and Meloni is from the far right.
08:04That's true.
08:05And that's something that is criticized also by the coalition partner, the Social Democrats.
08:10within the German government that Merz doesn't, shouldn't, shouldn't...
08:15team up too much with Meloni and the ECR, the European...
08:20conservative and reformist party within the European Parliament.
08:23And on the other hand, these are a talk coalition...
08:25So there's not a systematic collaboration going on between these political...
08:30families.
08:31Getting back to Paris and Berlin, would you say the relationship is...
08:35a crisis right now?
08:36No, definitely not.
08:37There's always been divergences.
08:39What we can say...
08:40is definitely an improved relationship in the sense that it's way more regular.
08:45that Paris and Berlin talk to each other.
08:46And there is a Franco-German roadmap that dates back to August 20...
08:502025.
08:51The problem is that there has been so many government reshuffles that...
08:55both governments had a hard time implementing what they have been announced in this Franco-German...
09:00a roadmap, especially focusing on EU competitiveness.
09:03Because Emmanuel Macron...
09:05was seemed like the strong one next to Olaf Scholz with the weaknesses that...
09:09the...
09:10coalition issues that he had.
09:11Now with the French government's falling consistently...
09:14Mm-hmm.
09:15With Macron...
09:15being term-limited and leaving office, is the French the weaker?
09:20the weaker link in this case.
09:21There is kind of a power shift that we can sense through certain...
09:25extent.
09:26However, I would say that Macron still keeps...
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09:59Interior Affairs of France.
10:01All right, Janet, so many thanks for joining us here on France.
10:03Thanks for having me.
10:04Stay with us. There's more to come. More news, plus the day's business and sports.
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