00:00Yeah, a few heads of state making the trip to Hamburg for this summit.
00:05Most among them was France's president.
00:08Relations between France and France.
00:10France's Emmanuel Macron and Germany's Friedrich Mertz have been.
00:15Of late, a bit, how should we put it?
00:19Can't.
00:20I'd say Janet Seuss is with us, researcher for the Committee for the Study of Franco-German
00:24Relations.
00:25At the French Institute of International Relations, IFRI, you've just published a study on.
00:30How Germany makes its European policy, there you see it.
00:35I said chaotic.
00:36Maybe it's not chaotic.
00:37Let's just say it's a...
00:40It's not the bromance we expected.
00:43And in the face...
00:45Last week of superpower pressures from Russia, but also...
00:50Also from the United States, other Europeans are worried.
00:54They want the...
00:55Germans and the French get along better.
00:57What are the points of discord here?
00:59So first of all, I...
01:00I would say that we are in this time, in this phase of the relationship maybe where...
01:05The relationship is put to a test, whereas in the beginning...
01:10One year ago, there was this bromance, this narrative about that very...
01:15Symbolic, of course, first meetings between Macron and Merz, but now as things...
01:20Are materializing and we have to put it down to break it down.
01:25To different aspects, be it in the economic field, in the trade field, in the defense sector...
01:30The cooperation, it's becoming more difficult because it's becoming concrete, but there's always been...
01:35Divergences, structural divergences between France and Germany, so we have...
01:40A very big divergence in the trade sector, where Germany advocates...
01:45For free trade deals all over the world and France is a bit more reluctant and a bit more...
01:50Sectionist, you could also say, from a German viewpoint, then you have the defense...
01:54Corporate...
01:55The cooperation, but we also do have some leeway when it comes to, for example...
02:00The cooperation in the energy sector, so there is also some positive signs...
02:03And also some common measures...
02:05That are announced for more EU competitiveness.
02:07All right, so let's break down the first two, because again, this is...
02:10It's all about Europe building up its self-reliance in the face...
02:15Of a US ally that is not as reliable to them as they want to be.
02:20That's what France was.
02:21On trade, the difference over Mercosur...
02:25Is that surmountable?
02:26I mean, anyway...
02:29The...
02:30The deal was adopted at the end in the Council of Ministers and France was bypassed.
02:35By the other member states.
02:37This was, of course, a tough...
02:40The situation between France and Germany, because Germany was hoping to be able...
02:45To convince France by giving in and by giving some...
02:50Some compromises by giving in to the...
02:52The...
02:53The...
02:54Concerns that they had.
02:55Farming.
02:56For the...
02:57For the farmers especially, and the...
02:58The...
02:59Demonstrations that were going...
03:00Going on.
03:01So there's, of course, a political pressure on the domestic side here, but...
03:05Germany didn't really convince Macron at the end.
03:07They had to give in to this political pressure.
03:10But...
03:11There's other...
03:12There's other situations where we can see that...
03:15They...
03:16Both states are still pretty much aligned.
03:17So when it comes to Donald Trump, they were both...
03:20In favor of having a clear stance towards the US, for example.
03:24But Germany still has...
03:25This export-driven model.
03:26Yes.
03:27Which the French don't have.
03:28So is that something that's in...
03:30Insurmountable.
03:31And that's why it's easier for Germany to...
03:34To...
03:35To conclude these free trade agreements, whereas for France it's a bit...
03:40a different story but I think France is really worried about
03:45this agricultural sector and Germany has other type of industries especially the automotive industry.
03:50Very export driven so it has a hard time saying
03:55it doesn't want to, it wants to stop exporting it really wants to continue exporting all over.
04:00And then there's defense where the arguments run two-fold. There's a weather,
04:05each side accuses the other of not leveling up enough, the French not spending enough.
04:10Are accused of not spending enough on Ukraine, the Germans accused of not spending enough.
04:15Period. And the two don't get along when it comes to, for instance,
04:20plans to build weaponry together. Yeah, on the one hand, we can see that there is pretty much a
04:25of an alignment when it comes to the rhetorical side. So there's this what Macron already
04:30said, a strategic autonomy discourse going on since 2017.
04:35And Germany didn't really apply back in the day under Merkel or Scholz. And now...
04:40Friedrich Merz, he really welcomes this concept. He's also in favor of producing...
04:45...more European-based weapons systems as such. But when it comes to the concrete projects...
04:50...between France and Germany. So the FCAS, the fighter jet, future combat air system especially. And then we have...
04:55...the MGCS, the main ground combat system. Are both those projects dead?
04:59Dead.
05:00Dead.
05:01Dead.
05:02Dead.
05:03Dead.
05:04Dead.
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05:06Dead.
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05:08Dead.
05:09Dead.
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05:13Dead.
05:14Dead.
05:15Dead.
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05:26Dead.
05:27Dead.
05:28Dead.
05:29Dead.
05:05However, for the FCAS, the Future Combat Air System, there is a very lack of...
05:10a hard competition going on.
05:12Because some people are saying, Europe is facing an existential...
05:15crisis, and that the last week, the threats against Greenland, what's happening in Ukraine...
05:20There are existential crises, and they feel as though they don't understand why the French
05:25and the Germans...
05:25The Germans aren't getting along.
05:26There's definitely a sense of urgency, I feel.
05:28However, yeah, there is this...
05:30competition going on, especially between Dassault on the one hand and Airbus.
05:35On the other hand, then there's also the Spanish side, the Spanish part inside...
05:40So it's all a question about technological leadership, France...
05:45worried about losing its leadership, about losing its intellectual property, and Germany...
05:50having rather like a sense of wanting to share knowledge, to work together.
05:55collaboratively, but at the end just giving money without having necessarily...
06:00the savoir-faire.
06:01So, last Friday, Friedrich Mertz goes to Rome...
06:05sees Georgia Maloney, the far-right head of a coalition...
06:10government, and there extols that they can get along to...
06:15together they can help to simplify Europe.
06:17The message was kind of like, is this the new...
06:20motor for the EU, or is France sidelined?
06:23Or...
06:24what...
06:25what did you make of this Friday visit to Rome?
06:27I think it's rather complimentary, because...
06:30what we have to put into context is, and what we have to remember is that there has been...
06:35a dialogue going on already under the previous German government, under Olaf Scholz...
06:40in 2023, Italy and Germany signed a bilateral agreement for an action plan.
06:45And now, this is really an update of this action plan by materializing it into concrete...
06:50projects which are developed further.
06:52So, of course, Italy and Germany have...
06:55a lot of things in common, there are major industrial powers within the EU, so sometimes
06:59it's a bit easier maybe...
07:00to collaborate in terms of industrial culture, but it can't replace the...
07:05Is the beating heart of the EU shifting from a Paris-Berlin axis to a Berlin role...
07:10axis?
07:11I wouldn't say that, because we also have other actors within the EU, and we are seeing
07:14rather a...
07:15multiplication of different forms...
07:20different flexible formats within the EU, so it's rather millilateral...
07:25partners like the Weimar Triangle, Weimar Plus, and we have E3 with the EU...
07:30UK also, super important in the defence corporation, and then we have France and Italy...
07:35now, becoming important players, of course, because Merz, he also knows that the timeframe...
07:40to shape European policy with Macron is quite limited, as there will be president...
07:45presidential elections taking place in 2027.
07:47And how about ordinary Germans?
07:49Do they prefer to...
07:50do business with the Italians than with the French?
07:52There is a very narrow business relationship between...
07:55Italy and Germany.
07:56Even though there is this kind of republican firewall in Germany...
08:00that you have like in France, and Meloni is from the far right.
08:04That's true.
08:05And that's something that is criticised also by the coalition partner, the Social Democrats.
08:10within the German government, that Merz doesn't... shouldn't...
08:14shouldn't...
08:15team up too much with Meloni and the ECR, the EU...
08:20conservative and reformist party within the European Parliament.
08:23And on the other hand, these are a talk coalition...
08:25so there's not a systematic collaboration going on between these political...
08:30families.
08:31And getting back to Paris and Berlin, would you say the relationship is...
08:35a crisis right now?
08:36No.
08:37Definitely not.
08:38There has always been divergences.
08:39What we can say...
08:40is definitely an improved relationship in the sense that it's way more regular.
08:45that Paris and Berlin talk to each other.
08:46And there is a Franco-German roadmap that dates back to August 20...
08:502025.
08:51The problem is that there has been so many government reshuffles that...
08:55both governments had a hard time implementing what they have been announced in this Franco-German...
09:00a roadmap, especially focusing on EU competitiveness.
09:03Because Emmanuel Macron...
09:05was seemed like the strong one next to Olaf Scholz with the weaknesses that...
09:09the...
09:10coalition issues that he had.
09:11Now with the French government's falling consistently...
09:14Mm-hmm.
09:15With Macron...
09:15being term-limited and leaving office, is the French the weaker?
09:20the weaker link in this case.
09:21There is kind of a power shift that we can sense through certain...
09:25extent.
09:26However, I would say that Macron still keeps a...
09:30certain momentum and keeps his power when it comes to steering foreign policy as he has.
09:35Very vocal stands on very important role also constitutionally speaking.
09:40As being the French president, which is not so much the case for a German chancellor.
09:45In terms of, you know, position and possibility, possibility so that.
09:50There is still this prominent role of Macron, however, of course, there is a lack of credibility.
09:55When it comes to other when it comes to other policy domains, especially the interior.
10:00All right, Janet, so many thanks for joining us here on France.
10:03Thanks for having me.
10:04Stay with us.
10:05There's more to come, more news, plus the day's business and sports.
10:10There's more to come.
10:15There's more to come.
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