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00:00:00Hello everybody and you're all very welcome to another episode of the show. I hope you enjoy
00:00:21what happens here over the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is let me hand you
00:00:26over to our MC for the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Thank you Tommy. Well, our first
00:00:34guest is Miss Alison Spittle. Hiya. Hi Tommy. Alison, hello there. How are you? Great now. You look fab and full of energy. Thank you. Fred sacked off pretty quick there. He's very much no eye contact, isn't he? Says your name and then he's gone. He's not allowed to make eye contact.
00:00:56Is that? Has that been brought in now? What incident brought that on? No, it's just a fear of what might happen as opposed to what has happened. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Look, we always must fear that.
00:01:05How are you? Good now. How's, are you still over in, for those people who don't know you, I know you as a stand-up comic. Yeah. And that you moved to London. I did. Is the last I heard of you. So what's been happening since? Still there. Still there. Yeah. Living there now nearly five years. Moved just in time for lockdown.
00:01:24Glorious to spend the lockdown in Camden. And yes, still living there. Probably never going to come back to Ireland. And that's grand. You know, like you just have to, like, I don't know. I think I left Ireland and there was a part of me going, oh, maybe I'll come back. But like, the longer I'm gone, the longer I'm not coming back. And that's, that's cool. Do you know?
00:01:45What's the attraction of England for you? The attraction of England is, like, same amount of rent that you have to pay that you're in Dublin. And a bigger audience as well. And like, you know, I kind of had a TV series here.
00:02:00And I was looking at how much I was making and then what the gigs I was doing. And I was like, I can't, I can't live in Ireland and do what I'm doing. Like, I'm not commercially a viable, I'm not commercially a big viable option to live in Ireland.
00:02:18So I have to live in England. So I have to live in England and be myself, but like, kind of just hopefully make a living from it. Because it's weird, like, like, living in Ireland and like, I was like, famous enough to get a lift off people because people felt safe. They're like, oh, she's off the telly. She's not going to kill me. But I couldn't afford a car. You know, that kind of thing. But I'm not saying it in a complaining way. It's just like, that's the way it is.
00:02:43How did the phrase, I'm not a commercially viable option come to you? What does that mean?
00:02:51It just means, like, I should be able to, I should be able to, like, because I'm doing club comedy every week that I'm not touring. Or like, I'm gigging four nights a week.
00:03:03And it's kind of like, to be a working comedian, the arse has fallen out of the working comedians industry. Like when I go to clubs and I chat to other comedians,
00:03:13their wives are doctors, their wives are psychologists. I feel like the NHS is propping up the club comedy community in England anyway.
00:03:21And then like, in Ireland, like, there wasn't even a club circuit, you know, that you could rely on.
00:03:27So you were doing your tours, you were like, if RT gave you something that year, it was good.
00:03:31But like, I couldn't kind of base my whole life on, like, whether I got a series in RT or not, because it's very unlikely each year.
00:03:41You know what I mean? It is the way I didn't. Do you know what? I was excited about going on this.
00:03:46And I was like, I don't know if we could talk about that, but I'm like, I don't want to be like the harbinger of doom with comedy.
00:03:52But I can. Let's start with doom. Yeah, let's start with doom. Let's keep going. Yeah.
00:03:57It's going to get better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.
00:03:59Your appearance has changed a lot since the last time I saw you.
00:04:02Yeah, I've lost weight. Yeah. Yeah, I've lost weight. I've, like, I've lost, I went on the jabs, the Mount Jaro jabs, because...
00:04:09Is that like an zempic type thing? A zempic type thing.
00:04:12So, like, two years ago, I nearly died. I had a thing called septicemia, which I got from cellulitis, which is, like, basically a nick got into my skin at some point.
00:04:25I think it was on the beach, and I got an infection in my blood, and then it took over my body, and it was like, my organs were starting to shut down.
00:04:32And the doctors, they told me I was pre-diabetic as well, and they said, you have to lose weight.
00:04:36And I was like, right, and it's the first time I've ever tried to lose weight, like, actively try, because I saw being fat as, like, rebellion.
00:04:44And I saw, like, because, like, especially being in comedy, like, I would have people say stuff to me, and I always felt like it shouldn't matter how I look and stuff like that.
00:04:55And so it didn't make me want to change my appearance.
00:04:58And also, I definitely have a food addiction, like, I definitely kind of, like, like, kind of, like, filled, fill the hole, so to speak, with food.
00:05:09That thing about the, like, they came hand in hand.
00:05:12So I remember when, because the first way we judge people on stage is probably physically.
00:05:19Yeah.
00:05:19And when I first saw you coming, you were a large lady.
00:05:22Yeah.
00:05:23And it was almost like, oh, okay.
00:05:26You can say fat, Tommy.
00:05:27Well, yeah, okay.
00:05:29I don't mean it in, like, it's not, like, anyone can say fat.
00:05:33Fat is not, like, I don't know.
00:05:35Why do you feel like you need to say large?
00:05:39It sounds like I'm attacking you.
00:05:40I think large is a phonetically a nicer word.
00:05:44It is a nicer word, yeah.
00:05:45Yeah, fat is a bit, fat is a bit, it sounds like, fat sounds like slap.
00:05:49It does.
00:05:50Whereas large is a kind of, you can relax into it.
00:05:52It's elongated.
00:05:53Yeah, it's like a chaise lounge, isn't it?
00:05:55Large is chaise lounge.
00:05:56So, there was, there was something that you, it looked like you were, there was a boldness in it or something.
00:06:08It was kind of a celebration.
00:06:12Yeah.
00:06:13Of what you were.
00:06:15And I, that's, I'm not, I'm not, maybe making a lot of sense of that, but I, that was my sense of it.
00:06:20All right, here we go.
00:06:22She's.
00:06:22She's, she's, she's big.
00:06:25She's here.
00:06:25And she's not apologising for it.
00:06:27Yeah.
00:06:28I like that.
00:06:28Thanks, Tommy.
00:06:29I think that's what, I don't know, like, I appreciate that that's what you thought.
00:06:33And like, I feel like it was definitely, it's weird, because it's like, there's kind of two things, isn't there?
00:06:39There's like, that is the celebration and also it's like, it would be silly of me to deny that it isn't also some sort of like, coping mechanism is the wrong word, defense mechanism maybe?
00:06:49I definitely, like, especially, like, I would wear mad clothes as well.
00:06:54I would, I'd wear mad clothes and like, I did get told, like, I got told by men who I didn't fancy that I would be fuckable if I wasn't fat or whatever.
00:07:06But this was all stuff that wasn't like, I was like, okay, grand, but like, that's not, you know what I mean?
00:07:14Who says that?
00:07:16You'd be surprised, Tommy.
00:07:18You'd be surprised.
00:07:20Like, men, like, like, a man in his 50s.
00:07:26I don't know why they do.
00:07:28I think, I think people think as well, if you're fat that you're stupid, because you know how not to be fat and yet you don't do that.
00:07:37And your life would be easier if you wasn't fat, so it must be like an intelligence thing.
00:07:42And like, definitely got told about getting on Teddy that it would be easier if I was thinner.
00:07:48And it would be said candidly and it would be said in a way that's like, I'm pissed off with the system, but this is how it is.
00:07:54I tell you, Alison, it annoys me.
00:07:59It annoys me.
00:08:00You look annoyed.
00:08:01Every week.
00:08:02Yeah.
00:08:03I can see it in your body.
00:08:05There are women on this show telling me things about men's behaviour and it's sickening.
00:08:17And I, I, it makes me so sad as well.
00:08:24I don't understand what's happening with men that they would say this kind of nonsense.
00:08:32Anyway, I think it's like a thing of like, I don't know, you can, you can psychologically analyse like why people are like mean about it or whatever.
00:08:41Like, like I'm very lucky in the way that like, I was never really interested in anyone romantically.
00:08:49And then like, uh, then I did, I had a long-term relationship, but like all of my fat women friends would be like, how did you get someone to go out with you?
00:09:01Like, how did you get them to, like, and it was so weird.
00:09:04And they would tell me like that the fellas that they're seeing, they'll all be hugging and all that, but they'd never bring them to weddings or anything.
00:09:11So it's like a weird kind of like, I don't feel sorry for the fellas in that situation.
00:09:15Like, imagine living your life over like the opinion of someone who probably doesn't care.
00:09:21Do you know what I mean?
00:09:22Like, it's just mad what people do to avoid a slagging is like they, I think they changed their lives so much.
00:09:29And like slagging is not that bad.
00:09:30I get slagged all the time.
00:09:32It's actually grand.
00:09:32I'd rather be slagged and live my life.
00:09:35So I have lost weight to go back to that.
00:09:38But like, I was really fucking scared.
00:09:41I could not stop eating and I did not want to die, but I couldn't stop it.
00:09:45So then I was like, really, really, really scared.
00:09:50I had to, so I had sleep apnea.
00:09:52Oh yeah.
00:09:52So I had to like, get a sleep apnea machine, which is embarrassing.
00:09:55That was embarrassing.
00:09:57That was like, I was like, I'm fucking sick.
00:09:58Nothing sexier than putting a mask on.
00:10:01Stop.
00:10:02Oh my God.
00:10:03Good night, love.
00:10:04Like you're a fighter pilot, you know?
00:10:06But what are you fighting death when you're sleeping?
00:10:09Do you know what I mean?
00:10:11And it always like, if you have a partner, you have sleep apnea.
00:10:14Wish me luck.
00:10:15I'm gone.
00:10:18And it's the, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:19And it's always like, yeah.
00:10:21I think the, getting the machine is more for your partner.
00:10:24So they're not worried about you, that you're dying in your sleep.
00:10:26Because you always sound like you're going to die in your sleep.
00:10:28So that was bad.
00:10:29And that was like, because it's just like, it's, if you, it's a weird thing.
00:10:37It's like, it's like I am losing weight.
00:10:39I am feeling better about myself.
00:10:41Because I like running now.
00:10:43I didn't like running before.
00:10:44My hobbies before were deliveroos.
00:10:47Now my hobby is like yoga and running.
00:10:49But I don't think I'm morally any worse back.
00:10:52You know what I mean?
00:10:53Totally, yeah, yeah.
00:10:53It's a weird thing to like, admit the stuff that, admit even is a weird word.
00:10:57But to say stuff that like, it's different in your life now.
00:11:01And I feel so defensive of the person I was two years ago.
00:11:04Because I just think like, she was worthy of like, respect.
00:11:10I don't know why I'm crying, but I am.
00:11:14But fuck, it's just like, I'm going to get a tissue.
00:11:19I have a tissue here.
00:11:22Beautiful.
00:11:26These are lovely and soft as well.
00:11:28Very good.
00:11:29Very good.
00:11:30All right.
00:11:32Just let me sort out the nose.
00:11:33For a laugh now, you should eat them.
00:11:34Should I, yeah?
00:11:37Eat your tears.
00:11:38So I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:39Yeah, I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:40Yeah, I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:41Yeah, I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:42Yeah, I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:43Yeah, I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:44But, what are we chatting about, about like, being fat?
00:11:49Just the, the idea that the person that you are now is not the person that you were two
00:11:59years ago.
00:12:00And that's, can you tell me about that perception of yourself, that you're different now?
00:12:06When I was fatter and I didn't want to lose weight, I didn't think about being fat.
00:12:12Because I was like, well, it's me and I exist and there's other things that I need to think
00:12:16about and there's other things I need to do.
00:12:18Look, I'm not going to change this.
00:12:20So why am I thinking about it?
00:12:22And now that I'm changing it, now that I'm changing my appearance and I see how differently
00:12:27I get treated because of my appearance.
00:12:29It kind of like, it kind of makes me feel like a better word than feeling sorry.
00:12:38I've been like more angrier for myself a few years ago.
00:12:43Now.
00:12:44I'm more defensive of myself now.
00:12:47How do you feel when you look back on?
00:12:49Photos of me being fatter.
00:12:51Yeah.
00:12:52Do you know, that's interesting.
00:12:53I feel fine.
00:12:54I go, sometimes I look at it and go, Jesus, I was very fat.
00:12:58Do you know?
00:12:59But like, that's, but I was.
00:13:02So, like, I have to like, it'd be weird of me.
00:13:07It would be weird of me never to share pictures of myself from years ago.
00:13:10Because it's just like, like, I'm so proud of myself.
00:13:14Like, I don't hate myself.
00:13:16And that makes me, and I know like, definitely like, why I became, you know, definitely why
00:13:23I became fat.
00:13:24Like, I was fat when I was a kid.
00:13:26And people would be concerned and stuff.
00:13:28And that made me, and definitely there was a ting of like, you won't be attractive if you're fat.
00:13:34And I was like, thank you.
00:13:36And it's, it really, I really kind of like, it irked me to be.
00:13:42Who, who would say that to you?
00:13:44Erm, I mean, who says it to me now would be like online.
00:13:48It would, it would be online.
00:13:50It would be like, there was this fellow once.
00:13:52This fellow once, he was like, so I was on this TV show on RT for, we were in Morocco.
00:13:57And the fellow opened the conversation with me, I've just had a wank over you.
00:14:01And I was like,
00:14:02I'm sorry.
00:14:12Yeah.
00:14:13I didn't use my real name and I'm sorry about that.
00:14:19Oh Lord.
00:14:21Well, look, yeah.
00:14:22I'm ashamed of myself now.
00:14:23Yeah, I know.
00:14:24Well, you weren't at the time.
00:14:26But, erm, so he messaged and I was just having the crack and I was like, ah, you can't be saying that.
00:14:31And I said, and also his profile picture was a picture of his son.
00:14:35So I was like, I, like, so it was a child, it looked like a child was talking to me.
00:14:39I was like, is this a child or is this, you know.
00:14:41And he goes, ah, fuck off you fat bitch.
00:14:44And he went into all this big, like, it went from, I, nothing, like, I'd say he wasn't even dry.
00:14:51And he was calling me a fat bitch.
00:14:52Like, you know, like, it was mad how, like, it went from quick, from that to that.
00:14:56Yeah.
00:14:57What do you think about being on stage?
00:15:00What's your, do you have a, do you have an understanding of it?
00:15:05I think.
00:15:06Or a desire?
00:15:07I think I feel powerful.
00:15:10I don't think I, like, I don't know.
00:15:13I think it's like, I felt a bit like from, from my teenage life and my childhood, I was a bit like a rodeo clown.
00:15:21Like, I would come out and tell jokes after, like, a big incident or something.
00:15:25Like that to make everyone kind of feel better.
00:15:28And the feeling I got doing my first gig was like, I've never felt it since.
00:15:33I never will.
00:15:34But it was incredible.
00:15:35It was like this adrenaline.
00:15:37And I'd say the gig was shite.
00:15:39You think back, I think back to the jokes that I did and I'm like, that cannot be good.
00:15:43Yeah.
00:15:44But I felt powerful.
00:15:45Like, I genuinely felt like, I felt like no one could hurt me up there.
00:15:50And I could just express myself freely.
00:15:53So that's what I did.
00:15:55And I don't feel any other part of my life do I feel that.
00:15:58But also it comes very naturally to you.
00:16:00You're a natural truth teller and underminer at the same time.
00:16:07Yeah.
00:16:09So you say something and then you whip it.
00:16:11You destroy it again.
00:16:12So that's not a, that seems effortless.
00:16:15That seems like a natural way for you.
00:16:17I'm really proud of the past two shows that I've done.
00:16:20People have gone, there's so many gags and I'm like, yeah, because I intentionally,
00:16:26well, I intentionally wanted to say some, like, it was like the story I had.
00:16:29It was all about like, do you know what it was all about?
00:16:32The show called Wet and it was about like, aquaerobics and sexual coercion.
00:16:37And it was going to be like, it's just observational comedy.
00:16:40Craft.
00:16:41Yeah.
00:16:42But it was craft that I didn't know I could do.
00:16:46You're fearless, Alison, you're, and there's a wildness and an honesty and a charm to your stand up.
00:17:01And I'm delighted to hear that you're committed to the craft of writing jokes.
00:17:07Cause that coupled with your perceptions and your fearlessness is an unusual and exciting combination of things.
00:17:22So, so power on, like, do you know what I mean?
00:17:25Thank you, man.
00:17:26That's such a lovely, yeah.
00:17:28Are you touring Ireland soon?
00:17:30Yeah, I am doing Vicar Street.
00:17:32Good woman. Wow.
00:17:33Yeah.
00:17:34What's the name of the show?
00:17:35It's originally going to be called Fat Bitch.
00:17:37I wanted to call it Fat Bitch.
00:17:39But the Edinburgh Fringe were like, we can't put that on a poster.
00:17:43And I was like, well, what about fat bitch?
00:17:44And they were like, no.
00:17:49And the parents of me were like, no.
00:17:53So I've got it big.
00:17:54So it's a euphemistic thing.
00:17:56But it's all about like, eh.
00:17:58It's called, I've got it big.
00:17:59It's called big, just big.
00:18:00Big, okay.
00:18:01Big, nice, nice euphemism.
00:18:03It's a cute little thing.
00:18:04Yeah, yeah.
00:18:05Thank you so much for coming on to the show.
00:18:07It's been such a pleasure talking to you.
00:18:09Ah, no matter.
00:18:10It's been great.
00:18:11It's been great.
00:18:12Oh, my God.
00:18:13And I only cried a few times.
00:18:14Thanks so much.
00:18:15Thanks, Alison.
00:18:16Well, welcome back to the second half, everybody.
00:18:32Freddie, who's next?
00:18:33Tommy.
00:18:34Tommy.
00:18:35Our next guest is Joe Kerrigan.
00:18:48You're walking on like a cowboy.
00:18:50I have something to tell you.
00:18:51Do you?
00:18:52I'm not going to say this.
00:18:53I'm not going to say this.
00:18:54I'm not going to say this.
00:18:55I'm not going to say this.
00:18:57Or I should say, perhaps, I am here on behalf of themselves.
00:19:02The good people.
00:19:03The other world.
00:19:04Sit down there now.
00:19:05I will.
00:19:06Now I know where I know your name from.
00:19:11I have some books, I think, at home that you've written.
00:19:17And I can't remember what they are.
00:19:19There would have been Old Ways, Old Secrets, Brehon Laws, Irish Fairy Forts, Portals to the Past.
00:19:28Yeah.
00:19:29A few others as well, but those were the ones mostly that were in the field I'm chasing at the moment,
00:19:34which is bringing back our old culture, our old beliefs, our old ways.
00:19:38The way we were for thousands, millennia.
00:19:41When we had our own beliefs, our own druids, our own spirits.
00:19:45Tell us about the Brehon Laws.
00:19:49We should never have got rid of them.
00:19:50Yeah.
00:19:51Tommy, we should never have got rid of these.
00:19:53They were evolved out of nature.
00:19:55They were created by the people, for the people.
00:19:58They weren't imposed on us by somebody on high who said, this is the book and you're going to follow us.
00:20:02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:03We started when we were communities in Ireland back in ancient times.
00:20:06We got together in our little community in our village and somebody did something bad.
00:20:10He, you know, you let your pig out of the garden and you trampled my garden.
00:20:13And the people, that shouldn't happen.
00:20:15So they worked out a plan that if you did that, then you would have to pay recompense to me.
00:20:20You might have to give me one of your pigs.
00:20:22Or, and then they would make a rule that it didn't happen again.
00:20:25And you had to mend your fences also.
00:20:27So everything that happened that went wrong or that went well, you made a law to go with it.
00:20:32So it evolved out of natural, normal living.
00:20:35So stuff like, say we go to the extreme now, say for murder.
00:20:40If you killed your brother or a neighbour.
00:20:44We did not go in for killing in return.
00:20:47I mean, when you think about it, what sense is there?
00:20:50I mean, you kill my husband and I immediately have you killed.
00:20:54What's that going to do?
00:20:55What good is that going to do to anybody?
00:20:57There am I, without bereft, without anything.
00:20:59So you would punish, you would have to pay the honour price for my husband, which would be hefty.
00:21:05And you would also have to pay recompense and you would probably be ruined.
00:21:09And you would in future be at the lowest level, having to work your way to just to live.
00:21:14There was a punishment for people who had really, not only had you killed my husband,
00:21:18but you weren't even sorry for it and refused to be sorry.
00:21:21You would be put beyond the ninth wave.
00:21:24You're put into a boat without oars or provisions.
00:21:28And you're sent beyond the ninth wave, which is further than the tide could bring you back in.
00:21:33And you are left to the gods to decide what to do with you.
00:21:37If you came ashore in another land, they could kill you.
00:21:40Or they might put you there, but you could not come back.
00:21:43And it would be up to the gods to decide what to do with you.
00:21:47Because we believed in our nature spirits being stronger than we were.
00:21:51And they would decide.
00:21:52It was not for us to take, you might have decided to take someone's life.
00:21:56But it is not for us to decide to take it from you.
00:21:59We had so many sensible laws.
00:22:02Tell me about laws in terms of marriage.
00:22:05Like was there...
00:22:06Oh, that was great.
00:22:07And divorce and stuff.
00:22:08Yes.
00:22:09Women were a lot better off, as you probably know.
00:22:11In ancient Ireland, before we had these rather more stringent rules coming from other countries,
00:22:17women were equally, if not more important than men.
00:22:19They were honoured for what they could do.
00:22:21They had the miracle of bringing forth children.
00:22:23They were also considered to be rather more sensible in argument.
00:22:27This is probably something you wouldn't agree with me about.
00:22:31But women, when people got married, they could get married for a year and a day.
00:22:35Which is sensible when you think of it, Tommy.
00:22:37Yeah.
00:22:38I mean, how do you know if you're going to like someone in a year's time?
00:22:40There might be great lust or great ideas, but you don't know if you're going to like them or not.
00:22:44You would vow to try it for a year and a day.
00:22:47And if it didn't work out, you came back and you unfasted.
00:22:50And no problem, nothing at all.
00:22:52If children had occurred in the meantime, there was no shame to that.
00:22:56The children went with the mother.
00:22:57And there was none of this nonsense.
00:22:59Ah, right, OK.
00:23:00And I heard this beautiful phrase as well in one of the old Irish stories
00:23:05about a couple who were pledging themselves to one another.
00:23:09And the man said to the woman, which I think should replace the Catholic wedding vows,
00:23:17he said,
00:23:18For as long as you want me, I'm yours.
00:23:22Oh, I like that.
00:23:23Isn't that beautiful?
00:23:24I think that's a beautiful way of putting it.
00:23:26I know Christianity has a lot to answer for with its rules and its regulations.
00:23:31It wasn't the one we had when we had our own people.
00:23:33But you could get divorced also, even if you've been married for years.
00:23:36Yeah.
00:23:37And there were some strict rules against men.
00:23:39I'm not sure I can put it on the show here.
00:23:41Go on.
00:23:42Of all the shows, you can put it on this one.
00:23:45All right.
00:23:46Well, if you became rather too gross and fat for indulging in normal, happily connubial bliss, I could divorce you.
00:23:57Wow.
00:23:58Well, you could.
00:23:59It was practical.
00:24:00Yeah.
00:24:01It sounds...
00:24:02Any of the laws that I hear about, they seem to have more soul in them or something or more sense.
00:24:07They have more reality in them, more practicality.
00:24:10They were laws were to care for everybody.
00:24:12And there were strict rules governing how you could work.
00:24:15The thing was, you didn't take more out of the earth.
00:24:18Yeah.
00:24:19Than you gave back to it.
00:24:21Does our connection now with those old laws and those old ways of seeing our relations to one another, does the link seem quite weak?
00:24:36It seems desperately weak.
00:24:37We've got so used to English laws and the way things are imposed on us that we don't go with the old ones.
00:24:44I mean, the women's role, for example, has never been the same since Nick.
00:24:48No, we don't have the link we did, but we should.
00:24:51We're all like having old religions or old beliefs.
00:24:53The very least we could do is know about our Brehon laws because they were ours and they came naturally from our people.
00:25:00And they make sense of our life and our world.
00:25:04Was there opposition to Brehon law from the church, do you think?
00:25:09Yes.
00:25:11When Christianity came galloping over here from Rome and it was Roman Catholicism.
00:25:16It was not, its original founder, I imagine, was a very gentle man who wanted people to love each other.
00:25:21By the time it got to Rome and they got their hands on it, it turned into a pretty vicious religion.
00:25:25And naturally they wanted to get rid of it.
00:25:27They didn't want the power of the Brehans at saying things.
00:25:30They wanted the priests to be, the priests were to be the new Druids, the new Brehans.
00:25:33But of course, priests don't know anything except the liturgy and the church.
00:25:37They don't know anything about it.
00:25:38The Druids would have spent dozens of years, 20 or 30 years, learning all the different things, all the old ways, all the old legends, all the old laws.
00:25:47And they would have known about the stars and the moon and exactly when the solstice was going to happen.
00:25:52And the weather, well, the weather was going to change and they could foretell things by using a wren.
00:25:56It was lovely using a wren to foretell things.
00:25:59You didn't slaughter them, the Romans used to do that.
00:26:01They'd cut a bird in half and look at his entrails.
00:26:03I mean, how helpful is that?
00:26:05So what was the idea, what was the thing with the wren then?
00:26:08The wren, the king of all birds, he could foretell.
00:26:11They would watch a wren, they would bring, maybe they kept tame ones, they'd bring him out and they'd put him somewhere on a stone.
00:26:16And they'd see what he did.
00:26:18He would jump, you know a wren, they're very active.
00:26:20He would jump one way, he would jump another.
00:26:22He'd put his beak up this way, he'd put his beak that way.
00:26:24He'd fly over there and they would say, aha, there's an enemy coming from the west.
00:26:28Or you can expect bad weather coming from the east tomorrow.
00:26:31They would use the wren to tell things.
00:26:33The raven also was a foreteller of things.
00:26:36In the same way they'd watch which way?
00:26:38They'd watch what they were doing because then we all could have been able, you know, Tommy,
00:26:42to tell what the weather was going to do without watching some nice girl in a studio.
00:26:45Yeah.
00:26:46We would have been able to tell.
00:26:48Animals still can.
00:26:49Have you not noticed how dogs and cats know when it's going to rain or when there's a storm coming?
00:26:52Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
00:26:54We would still have this if we had developed our skills more.
00:26:58In the bits of old Irish mythology that I've read where, say, the Romans are talking about the Celts,
00:27:08they say one of the things is that, I mean, they're mad for arguments, mad for fighting, mad for singing and not afraid to die.
00:27:19No, you wouldn't.
00:27:20It's rather like the Vikings going into Valhalla.
00:27:23You went into another world, a more beautiful world than this one, where there is no, where falls not rain or hail nor any snow,
00:27:30nor ever wind blows loudly.
00:27:32A place where everyone is young and happy.
00:27:34People often wanted to go there.
00:27:36And that's what you get in some of the old legends, people who do go there, but they can't always come back.
00:27:40I have a sense now that we're so afraid of death and we're so panicked about dying.
00:27:55It's the natural progression on this world.
00:27:58It's the next stage, the most natural thing going on.
00:28:01You move through this phase, through that phase, and then you move on and go through the curtain and on to the next world.
00:28:07It's nature is what I mean.
00:28:10If you spend your life watching Facebook and Twitter and just looking at television, you don't think, you can't think there could be anything else.
00:28:18It's also, isn't it, that if you open your eyes to what's around you, you see how much death there is?
00:28:23Yes.
00:28:24In the sense of birds or insects or whatever, and that it's so, it becomes much more normalised.
00:28:29Yes.
00:28:30And natural.
00:28:31It's natural.
00:28:32Natural is the word.
00:28:33It's nature.
00:28:34It's what's there and what does happen.
00:28:36What do you have great respect for?
00:28:41Nature.
00:28:44The power of nature, the power of, call it a nature of gods if you like, but I have a huge respect for nature.
00:28:50And how nature at times, particularly nowadays, is showing anger.
00:28:54Because one of the strongest beliefs of our old ways with the old gods is that they cared for Ireland.
00:28:59You know the tradition of the Thua De Dona and how the Celts came and cheated them and they went underground rather than leaving their land.
00:29:04They stayed and they looked after it and they come forth to see that we're looking after our land.
00:29:09And our way, for God's sake, our way.
00:29:12They come out, particularly at the times of year when everything is thinnest, the veil is thinnest.
00:29:17You get it at Samhain, you get it at Bealtaine, you get it at the solstices, you get it at Lunasa.
00:29:22They come out and come around and see what it is that we're doing.
00:29:26And if we're not caring for the earth and the sea and the water around us, they get angry.
00:29:31And then they throw a strop and they throw a large storm at us.
00:29:36Now, so people can hear that and think that all these things are defined and separate.
00:29:46That the Thua De Dona are a separate thing from us, who are a separate thing from the land.
00:29:57But my sense of it is that those images are just ways of talking about a spirit that moves between the three.
00:30:09Between the three, because it's in us too.
00:30:11Have you not gone out into a wood and stood there at night and felt part of it?
00:30:15You know, people laugh about tree huggers and things, but there's a tree that's standing there that's been there for generations.
00:30:21There's a spirit in the wood also and there's you.
00:30:24You can let it into yourself and feel it and be part of it.
00:30:27And never ever again break a branch off a tree casually.
00:30:31Yeah.
00:30:33What's your favourite thing to be doing?
00:30:37Wandering around by a fairy fort, I think.
00:30:40And thinking of the stories and legends that have gone around it.
00:30:44What's your sense of behaviour around a fairy fort?
00:30:47Respect.
00:30:48You would not charge into someone's palace or into Oros and Ucturon, come to that and say,
00:30:52Hi, I've come for tea, where's the sugar?
00:30:55You would stand outside and wait to be admitted.
00:30:58So, in a rational way, that's not a rational belief in terms of...
00:31:05It's irrational if you wish, but I would hate to be rational all the time.
00:31:09Is there no side to our brain?
00:31:10Yeah, there is, but what I'm asking is that, so you're there in front of this fairy fort.
00:31:15Yeah.
00:31:16And, like, your sense of decorum, your sense of what is proper behaviour and what is not.
00:31:26Who are you, do you think?
00:31:31Like, what's happening?
00:31:33What's happening is that I'm entering another presence, a place that has been powerful.
00:31:38And I ask, if I think I have a good reason for going into a fairy fort, then I will.
00:31:42I always said people don't go into a fairy fort, but if I think I have a good reason.
00:31:46There might be a lost child in there, a lost animal, and you need to go in to get it.
00:31:49Or you may say, may I come and share your space for a little while?
00:31:54And you just ask politely.
00:31:56Is it so difficult to be polite to the old ways?
00:31:59What are the fairies, do you think?
00:32:01What are the fairy people?
00:32:03What are the fairies?
00:32:04The good people.
00:32:05The fairies is the word put on by the English in the 1890s.
00:32:08It's a sort of denigrating way.
00:32:09Now, yeah, the little things, like, you know, little leprechauns, little things.
00:32:13But ours are very real gods, the nature gods of Ireland, who are in charge of everything that is to the well-being of our country.
00:32:21The wells, every form of water, springs are magic, water is magic wherever it goes, to our seas, to our mountains, to our caves, to our hills, to our land.
00:32:30And to think that we're so important in our day and age that we can ride roughshod over everything else.
00:32:36It's asking for trouble.
00:32:38I mean, from one, no, it's not that different to praying to a god and asking for something.
00:32:47It's praying to a god, it is praying to a god, it's just not the Christian god whom they've turned into some cruel, vengeful creature.
00:32:55That Augustine fella, who should not be called Saint Augustine, who decided that women weren't worth anything except maybe to produce children, but not much good.
00:33:04And he was the one who started that awful, awful custom of not allowing unbaptised babies to be buried in it.
00:33:11And I cried then when I discovered about the use of the fairy forts.
00:33:16I cried when I heard that.
00:33:18That people who weren't allowed to bury their baby.
00:33:20I mean, isn't it enough to have lost your baby?
00:33:22Yeah.
00:33:23When they weren't allowed to bury them in a consecrated churchyard, they would take them to a fairy fort and bury them there.
00:33:28Because the good people would look after them.
00:33:29They thought, you know, and they believed that the old gods would look after them if the new god wouldn't.
00:33:38And I loved that.
00:33:40And it still moves me deeply.
00:33:41Years ago, I was down in County Clare and I was at this retreat, kind of a meditation retreat, you know, that included walking meditations.
00:33:56And you were to found a stretch of road or Bohrin or something and you would do a walking meditation there twice a day.
00:34:08And at the end of the retreat, the guy said, now I want you to go down to the place where you did your walking meditation.
00:34:14And in this particular Buddhist tradition, they were called Devas, I think it's D-E-V-A apostrophe S.
00:34:25But we'd know them as the good people.
00:34:27And he said, they're in the bushes.
00:34:31Yep.
00:34:32And I want you to go down there and thank them for the insights that you received while you were walking up and down beside them.
00:34:43And I went down to this little place where I was walking up and down and I gave encouragement to the part of myself that said, do it.
00:34:55And it felt really natural.
00:34:57I think that is lovely that you were talking about that.
00:34:58To say thank you.
00:34:59I have a lot of time for the Buddhists, a lot of time.
00:35:02But even just for the idea of thanking the spirit or whatever, I don't know, it all crumbles when you try to put words and definitions on it.
00:35:10I know.
00:35:11But where do you reckon, where do you think we're going?
00:35:16I think we're, I hope, I think there are signs that we are moving back to more of a belief in nature, in our old ways and old beliefs, because people are nauseated, I think, by the way we seem to be going in the world.
00:35:30We're going too fast in one direction.
00:35:32And your instincts will tell you.
00:35:34Sometimes your brain has been so shut off by all the other things you have to do.
00:35:38You're thinking, I've got to be there, I've got to be there, I've got to do this.
00:35:40But if you just let it, like you did when you talked to a bush and said, thank you, and thank you for giving me this insight, like you get when you're in a forest, like you get at the top of a mountain.
00:35:50Do you sing?
00:35:51I do.
00:35:52I do.
00:35:53I do.
00:35:54I would sing the old songs, all of us, yes.
00:35:57You're not going to have me asking to sing now, are you?
00:36:03Yeah, come on.
00:36:04Do you have a song on you?
00:36:07My young love said to me, oh, my mother won't mind, and my father won't slight you, for your lack of kind.
00:36:18Then he stepped away from me, and this he did say, it will not be long, love, till our wedding day.
00:36:30He stepped away from me, and he moved through the fair.
00:36:35Oh, how fondly I watched him move here and move there.
00:36:40And then he went homeward with one star awake, as a swan in the evening moves over the lake.
00:36:52Last night he came to me, oh, my dead love, he did come in.
00:36:58So softly he came, that his feet made no din.
00:37:03And he laid his hand on me, and this he did say, it will not be long, love, till our wedding day.
00:37:16Ah, dammit, you're turning.
00:37:18Oh, Jesus.
00:37:20For God's sake.
00:37:22I think there's magic, and we've got to allow our eyes to open a bit wider.
00:37:32Jo, it's been a wild ride.
00:37:36Thank you very much.
00:37:37You were lovely to talk to, Tommy.
00:37:39And you're halfway there yourself already, for heaven's sake.
00:37:52Welcome back to the third half, everybody.
00:37:57Freddie, who's next?
00:37:58Tommy, our next guest is Timothy Chow.
00:38:12Timothy, how are you?
00:38:14I'm quite nervous.
00:38:17I'm exciting.
00:38:18Sit down.
00:38:21Why would you be nervous?
00:38:23I've never sat with a comedian.
00:38:28The comedy is only a small part of my imagination.
00:38:31I mightn't use it at all.
00:38:34So, what do you work at?
00:38:38How do you spend your time?
00:38:41So, I am Timothy Chow, and I was born in North Korea.
00:38:49And escaped twice.
00:38:52And when I was 17.
00:38:55And I was imprisoned three times in China, and one time in North Korea during my escape.
00:39:02And arrived in the UK in 2008, which I started to learn English from having new life settled down.
00:39:13And now I'm a father of two children.
00:39:17So, I have two stages of stories.
00:39:20One story back in North Korea, how I escaped.
00:39:23Or even between that journey.
00:39:25And now where I am in the UK, as in my life, democratic citizen.
00:39:29Can you tell me whereabouts in North Korea you were born, who you were born to, and what was it like growing up there?
00:39:38So, born in a teacher's family, I was given a lot of love, respected, until that moment when my parents first escaped to China, as I was turning age 10.
00:39:54So, this was a life starting off, upside down.
00:40:00Why did your parents want to escape?
00:40:04Due to political persecution, they had to make that choice, leaving me behind.
00:40:10So, I came home from school, and opened the door, while I had breakfast with them.
00:40:18But in the afternoon, coming home, I realized, as soon as I opened the door, you could feel the frozen windows hitting your face.
00:40:28And realized something was happening in my heart.
00:40:32And I realized my parents were gone.
00:40:35So, I fast ran to the train station, and that's how my parents were gone.
00:40:41And I sat down and cried, and ran to my grandmother's house, holding her hands, cried.
00:41:02And grandmother told me, they might come back.
00:41:05It's not what they wanted.
00:41:07It was a very difficult decision.
00:41:09Later, my mother, of course, asked me to forgive her, several years ago, before she passed away.
00:41:16So, they managed to escape?
00:41:18They did.
00:41:19So, two things.
00:41:21Did you know why your parents left?
00:41:24And one thing I knew, it was a dangerous moment.
00:41:27Something they had to make that decision.
00:41:29If they didn't...
00:41:30How old were you when they left?
00:41:32I was 10.
00:41:3310.
00:41:34So, even at age 10, you still had an awareness?
00:41:38Not in details.
00:41:39Not in details.
00:41:40But what I knew, we called enforced disappearance.
00:41:47This is a time Hitler, Stalin, Mao, those generations.
00:41:52Families disappeared, taken to prison camp.
00:41:55North Korea has that culture, very common.
00:41:57All of a sudden, government car arrives at your door.
00:42:00A force will put whole family into a car and gone somewhere.
00:42:04We know where they're gone, but we don't talk about.
00:42:06We shut our mouth.
00:42:07We close our eyes.
00:42:09We block our ears.
00:42:11And although I didn't completely understand the situation in North Korea's 10,
00:42:15but I knew if they didn't make that choice,
00:42:18whole our family could have been taken away to a concentration camp,
00:42:23then you'd never come out forever.
00:42:26Can I ask you, now living in the UK, what differences do you see between there and North Korea,
00:42:38in terms of daily life, say for a child or something like that?
00:42:43There aren't any choices in North Korea.
00:42:46From the day you are born, you are being controlled to do what you need to do,
00:42:51and you are being brainwashed from a very young age to think, act, speak,
00:42:59song and sing for the Kim family as the regime dictated.
00:43:05And I genuinely thought Kims were my god when I was a boy.
00:43:10We were brainwashed deeply.
00:43:13At what age?
00:43:14So then you lived with your grandmother?
00:43:17It was a difficult time.
00:43:19Millions of people died of starvation in 1990s.
00:43:22At least 3.5 million people died of starvation.
00:43:26Any relatives' families were struggling.
00:43:28I was going to live with her, but I couldn't,
00:43:32because most of the family struggled without enough food.
00:43:37So for a few years I lived on the street,
00:43:41begging food and sleeping at the stations,
00:43:45in train containers, under bridges.
00:43:48Yeah.
00:43:49We sometimes had to eat grass.
00:43:52This was a kind of a...
00:43:58I called survivor.
00:44:01And later I was able to go back to my grandmother's house.
00:44:16After millions of people died of starvation, people started to grow food in every available space.
00:44:23But it's still in isolation, the hunger story going on in this country.
00:44:34Why do you think the Kim family allowed people to die like that?
00:44:41North Korea did not exist in history until 1945.
00:44:49There was only one Korea who was there, South Korea.
00:44:52Same national flag, same national anthem.
00:44:55I was the first Kim who was given the power by Stalin to set up communist dictatorship.
00:45:04And he established his own history.
00:45:07But then he distorted all history.
00:45:09The truth now gone into upside down.
00:45:13And we thought it was the best equal society in the world.
00:45:19Classless.
00:45:20We were wearing same shoes, same shirts, eating same food.
00:45:25After my parents escaped, they called me.
00:45:29I was a son of traitor.
00:45:31I was categorized in the enemy class.
00:45:3430% of total population in the enemy class.
00:45:38You get discriminated against everything.
00:45:41We call apartheid systems in North Korea.
00:45:44And I wasn't able to go to school from age 10.
00:45:47Because I was given the son of traitors.
00:45:50The enemy class tag.
00:45:56Can you tell me about putting together the plan to escape when you were 17?
00:46:01I had no idea.
00:46:04All I thought, I just run away from the country.
00:46:11And all I heard, some people who previously escaped talked about,
00:46:16Oh, China have plenty of food.
00:46:18Wherever you go, maybe you can get a job.
00:46:20So it was my plan.
00:46:23Prepared some of these emergency food myself.
00:46:27And so there were four people of us.
00:46:33And we crossed the border at night time.
00:46:37We walked.
00:46:38It was not deep enough, the Tumen river, called Tumen river,
00:46:42between China and North Korea.
00:46:44And it didn't take us long.
00:46:47It only took us half an hour to cross the border.
00:46:50And we arrived.
00:46:54I felt feeling quite sad after I crossed the border.
00:46:59And I was thinking, would I ever go back to that place I was born?
00:47:03Ugly hometown, but I still miss it.
00:47:06How did you, when you were in China, how did you get caught?
00:47:09So China is not safe for us.
00:47:11So I went to the Mongolian border.
00:47:13And meant to cross the border into Mongolia.
00:47:17So I met 17 people at the border, other North Korean refugees.
00:47:22So we were 18 of us.
00:47:23And we planned to cross the border into Mongolia.
00:47:26But there we were arrested at the border by the Chinese military.
00:47:31And in our group, youngest were four and six-year-olds.
00:47:36And they were shooting in our way when we didn't stop.
00:47:41Towards the border, kept on running.
00:47:44And Chinese were chasing us and shooting in our way.
00:47:48And kids were screaming and crying.
00:47:50We couldn't run anymore.
00:47:53And we all stopped.
00:47:55And we were arrested, sent us back to North Korea.
00:47:59And now taken to a prison detention.
00:48:06It was what they call detention center.
00:48:08But there were prison cells on the ground, many cells.
00:48:12And it was the same prison cells actually I saw
00:48:18when I visited the Auschwitz prison camp.
00:48:21I had the opportunity to visit.
00:48:23And I saw the gas chambers and how people were tortured and killed there.
00:48:28This was exactly what was happening in North Korea.
00:48:35And everyone looked depressed, in fear.
00:48:41No one did want to make eye contact with one another.
00:48:47We were given numbers.
00:48:49We were not allowed to call our names each other.
00:48:54And in my cell, tiny cell, we were about 50 inmates crammed.
00:49:02And we didn't have enough space to lie down.
00:49:07And woke up in the morning, early in the morning.
00:49:10I realized the man who was leaning against me, he died.
00:49:13He was so heavy.
00:49:15He was leaning against me, holding the body.
00:49:18He was already tortured before I arrived.
00:49:21We were given two scoops of noodle soup.
00:49:25No medical treatment.
00:49:27He was very surprised.
00:49:29He was very surprised when they decided to send me to my grandmother's house, which I didn't expect.
00:49:49didn't expect. I was the only one who actually left that prison cell. All these
00:49:5617 of them who we tried together I left them behind or hundreds of men and
00:50:02women whom I saw there. And I left with huge scars which I still have on my body.
00:50:12So I managed the second escape and I went to international school they call
00:50:19American school in Shanghai and through all the perseverance we managed to get
00:50:26into the school and we had the one paper we North Korean refugees please help us
00:50:31and all these little kids primary school students they were panicking they never
00:50:36had this situation and screaming and the school principal came and
00:50:42say to us unfortunately we cannot help you because this is a public school not a
00:50:48diplomatic or government center. So soon many Chinese police arrived there and nine
00:50:55of us we made human chains. We didn't want to be drugged out of the school we knew
00:51:01what was going to happen second repatriation to North Korea but
00:51:06obviously they were forcefully drug us into police vans and kids were standing
00:51:12there crying they couldn't help us and so we were now sent to Shanghai
00:51:20international detention center. And that was my fourth imprisonment and
00:51:33there's no hope. But then
00:51:39second night in the prison cell one of the inmates I had seven inmates in my cell he came to me and
00:51:49introduced himself to me that he was a South Korean gangster of course we speak the Korean
00:51:56language so we were able to communicate and he asked me perhaps you could start pray to God for your
00:52:04survival. If God is there you never know. And I looked at him and I was thinking
00:52:10the moment what a crazy mentally unstable gangster I ever met. I just told him I
00:52:15would be killed and he was telling me to pray to God for my survival even after I
00:52:19worshipped the Kim family for 17 years.
00:52:24But then first time I made my own decision there. First time I made my own decision in the darkest prison
00:52:32cell I decided to pray to God because there was nothing else I could do. And I genuinely was
00:52:40holding hope into that what I was wishing for because I didn't want to be killed. It was so scary.
00:52:49And I was holding the prison gate. I don't know how many days I did. Watching over and looking over
00:53:00the birds was flying outside of the prison cell. Was hoping I could fly like that bird. Or how many
00:53:07times I cried while I was born into this world.
00:53:19Excuse me. Oh before I come to this interview I was determined that I was not going to cry.
00:53:31Everybody says that.
00:53:33Tommy.
00:53:42Two men visited me in the prison. Two diplomats. One guy was a South Korean
00:53:48diplomat. The other guy was a Westerner. And they said to me Timothy we have good
00:53:54news. That China made very unusual decision to deport you and your group to the
00:53:59Philippines with diplomatic passport not to North Korea this was the first
00:54:06ever case and last happened never happened before and the story behind was
00:54:15among those hundreds of school students 13 year old girl she wrote an email to
00:54:22journalist who broken her English grammar as well I read that email on
00:54:27internet later it's still there she asked the journalist we were we were
00:54:34traumatized watching the arrest we young and powerless we couldn't do anything
00:54:39they would be killed if they sent back to North Korea could you please do
00:54:43something this journalist who was placed in Japan and during those days and she
00:54:50moved after receiving her email and an email to CNN Washington Post the
00:54:57articles are still there and BBC and dozens of international media to stand up
00:55:02and they so pressured on the Chinese government to not send them back to
00:55:08North Korea so I was able to come to UK via another country in 2008 I mean
00:55:19what do you feel is your work now I never thought I was going to tell the
00:55:36people I was born in North Korea or to do this work speak out against when I first
00:55:45arrived in the UK I didn't want to talk Korean language I was so heavily
00:55:51traumatized then I learned later it was the hatred I was holding in my heart that
00:55:59putting me into darkest corner and I was able to learn how to forgive so my mom
00:56:08actually rang me few years ago before she passed away she died in a care home she
00:56:14had a stroke her body part of half body paralyzed for the ears and I received her
00:56:21a phone call on a bus in Manchester she couldn't talk the doctor said your mom has
00:56:27one question the question was son could you forgive me she lived to suffer suffered many years and it
00:56:39was the final moment she asked me and asked I told my mom mom I have already forgiven you
00:56:45and I have a different story life in the UK I learned English got my high school certificates a
00:56:53levels and I went to universities studied in politics and I was expecting to work in
00:57:00Parliament in 2018 and she always wanted to give me the best education as she was a
00:57:07teacher and always wanted me wear nice clothes and she was crying and crying and I am very
00:57:18lucky and I'm very blessed but I do believe there must be reason why I survived and why I am in your
00:57:29studio I will commit my life to speak out against injustice especially around this time of the world so much
00:57:41hatred walls and conflict refugees persecution war is going on I have spoken to millions of people around the world over the past few years very grateful that someone who can have a passport I now have a British passport they can travel around and that I can come and share this of my experience freely
00:58:08and thank you and thank you and thank you I have to say thank you
00:58:16thank you Timothy okay that was I could have listened and listened and listened and listened
00:58:24but we're slightly bound by time here but thank you
00:58:30thank you
00:58:34and now ladies and gentlemen would you please welcome Aoife Nivreen and Cormac McCarthy performing Crowley's from their new album Cosán Costa
00:58:47and now ladies and gentlemen will see you in the next episode
00:58:52and let me see you in the next episode
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