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Europosłowie dyskutują w The Ring: czy UE ma jeszcze znaczenie w świecie bez zasad
Czy UE wciąż ma znaczenie, gdy siła coraz częściej wygrywa z prawem międzynarodowym? Odpowiada The Ring, cotygodniowa debata Euronews z dwoma europosłami.
CZYTAJ WIĘCEJ : http://pl.euronews.com/2026/01/19/europoslowie-dyskutuja-w-the-ring-czy-ue-ma-jeszcze-znaczenie-w-swiecie-bez-zasad
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Czy UE wciąż ma znaczenie, gdy siła coraz częściej wygrywa z prawem międzynarodowym? Odpowiada The Ring, cotygodniowa debata Euronews z dwoma europosłami.
CZYTAJ WIĘCEJ : http://pl.euronews.com/2026/01/19/europoslowie-dyskutuja-w-the-ring-czy-ue-ma-jeszcze-znaczenie-w-swiecie-bez-zasad
Zasubskrybuj nasz kanał.Euronews jest dostępny na Dailymotion w 12 językach
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00:00www.astronarium.pl www.youtube.com
00:30www.astronarium.pl www.astronarium.pl www.astronarium.pl www.facebook.com
01:00Europe, by contrast, appears divided and reactive, hesitant to challenge Washington and unclear about its own role.
01:08Will Europe defend the rules-based order or accept a world where power defines legality?
01:15That is the question that we have for our contenders today. Let's meet them.
01:19Hendrik Dahl, a Danish MEP and a member of the European People's Party Group.
01:26He's an expert on the EU's internal market, employment and legal affairs.
01:30Before entering EU politics, he was a long-time member of the Danish Parliament.
01:35He's also a published author of several books on sociology and politics.
01:39There has never been a rules-based international order.
01:42What is new is admitting it, he said regarding the U.S. Caesar of Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro.
01:50Lina Galvez, a Spanish MEP and a member of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats Group.
01:56She's an expert in feminist economics and gender equality and chairs the Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality.
02:02She's also a member of the European Parliament's Delegation for Relations with the United States.
02:06Commenting on the latest events, she said,
02:09Trump is dismantling the international multilateral system and the human rights framework.
02:14And the EU, will it continue to be soft? Shameful.
02:19Hendrik Dahl and Lina Galvez, welcome to their ring.
02:24Great to have you with us.
02:25Now, the idea here is to give our viewers a taste of what it's really like inside the European hemicycle.
02:31So I hope you feel right at home.
02:32Lina, perhaps we'll start with you.
02:34Is the European Union still relevant on the world stage?
02:37Still is.
02:38But unless we change certain things, it will not be.
02:42Because the world is changing.
02:44It's changing too fast, probably.
02:46It was changing already before the latest happenings.
02:50And that's the problem.
02:51The EU and the structures and the processes cannot keep up with that pace, Mr. Dahl.
02:55We are going to have to fight for our relevance.
02:57Because the new currency is raw power and we have economic power.
03:02But real, raw, old-fashioned power is something we are in short supply of.
03:06So we have to improve ourselves.
03:08And is that message clear inside the European Parliament?
03:11Or is it still business as usual, taking time to get things done?
03:15I think we are still a bit on business as usual.
03:18Unfortunately, we need to move faster than we are moving right now.
03:23And we have to say also there are some actors that are very much in favour of a very different European Union.
03:32But not in the sense of more Europe, but less Europe.
03:35And this is something we cannot afford it now.
03:37Well, that's an interesting point you make.
03:39Because, of course, there's threats externally.
03:40But there's also threats internally that question the whole idea of the European Union, Mr. Dahl.
03:44There are many problems in the European Union because some of the major countries have internal problems.
03:53So there's very little decision-making power in some of the capitals.
03:58And we need decision-making power in the big capitals as well.
04:01Yeah, but we also really need to empower the European Parliament because we are directly elected by citizens.
04:07So we have also a lot of things to do here.
04:10And I think if all the pro-European and pro-democratic forces manage to work closer together in a very real way and with coherence,
04:21that will improve very much the role of the European Parliament.
04:24Because as it looks now, Mr. Dahl, the EU often appears very weak on the world stage.
04:29If you look, for example, at the statement that the EAS put out, the Foreign Affairs Chief Kayakalas,
04:35it was 26 member states on the violent capture of Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela by the Trump administration.
04:42Why is the EU always so weak and always so divided?
04:45Because we are an economic union and most of the European countries rely on NATO for hard security.
04:52So there is a division of Labour.
04:54But sometimes I think we are grabbing the wrong tools in the toolbox.
04:58I have come to realise that Vladimir Putin is not really afraid of resolutions.
05:02And he's not afraid of strongly worded letters.
05:04And we have to understand this.
05:05And that is often the problem here.
05:06The Parliament has become a place of resolutions, of statements, of words.
05:12But in fact, more is needed, especially when it comes to this issue in Venezuela.
05:15What's your view there?
05:16We saw as well the European Commissioner, Teresa Liberta, rather critical of this soft, cautious stance of the EU on Venezuela.
05:23I mean, I think we need to be coherent.
05:25And if we say we are for multilateralism and international law, we have to do it.
05:31And obviously, we don't like a Venezuelan regime.
05:35It was not a democratic regime.
05:37That is clear.
05:38Most of the European Parliament, even my own country, Spain, that was a bit more vocal, did not recognise the result of the elections.
05:45But it does not mean that we need to prove what has happened in Venezuela, because that was a breakdown of international law.
05:55And we have to be coherent and we have to be very clear about it.
05:59And are we being coherent?
06:00That is the problem.
06:01I don't think we are being very coherent.
06:02But I think we have to accept that we have a rules-based order on our own continent.
06:08But there is not a global rules-based order.
06:11Because if you look at the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, three of them don't really care about the UN Charter.
06:18And they violate the UN Charter constantly.
06:20The new thing is that the United States used to rhetorically abide by the rules-based order.
06:25But when it came to the arrest of Maduro, Trump didn't even bother to talk about democracy.
06:30He just talked about oil and power.
06:33I agree that we did not have an international rule order as such.
06:39But that it was broken before.
06:42The problem or the difference is that the US is still the biggest power and is able really to change the rules in a faster way.
06:52And in a way, other actors are not able to.
06:55So, even if I agree in the sense that the international order was not working as we think it was working, or at least as theoretically it should be working, it has been a change now.
07:10And we are seeing a change now.
07:13We feel it's a deeper problem.
07:14Because under normal circumstances, which are not normal, if somebody attacked Greenland, we would invoke Article 5 of NATO.
07:21But if the United States attack Greenland, they are supposed to guarantee Article 5.
07:25So, you can't really invoke it if the attacking party is the party that's supposed to guarantee Article 5.
07:31So, why Europe should jump in?
07:33Why Europe should jump in?
07:34Well, one way, perhaps, that Europe or the EU could jump in here, an idea that some MEPs have been floating, is to freeze the EU-US trade deal as a way to put pressure on the administration of Donald Trump not to touch Greenland.
07:47Lina Gavis, would you be in favor of this?
07:48Yeah, of course. I'm also in the International Trade Committee and in the U.S. delegations.
07:56We are not very active in the recent month, I have to say.
07:59In the previous term, we were meeting almost every week.
08:03We were going. There were years. They went even five times there.
08:07The communications are down.
08:08And we are not doing that anymore.
08:11So, that means something already.
08:14But, of course, we have weapons.
08:16We have power we are not using.
08:18And we really need to think seriously about using it.
08:22And just, Mr. Dal Greenland, a topic very close to your heart as a Danish politician.
08:27What would be your view?
08:28Is freezing those EU-US trade talks a good idea?
08:32I think you need to take one step at a time on the escalation ladder.
08:36And I think stopping the deal would be more than one step.
08:39According to me, it would not be the natural first step.
08:43But how can the Europeans negotiate with President Donald Trump and his administration on tricky issues like trade, like tech, like Greenland, etc.?
08:51So, the international order is now moving towards, even not only the international order.
08:57I mean, the rules that Trump has seen, that the international order is not working.
09:03So, he's trying to change in his benefits.
09:06And his benefits is, even not in capitalist terms, he's not looking for benefits.
09:12He's looking for rents.
09:13So, he's really changing the whole rule of the game.
09:17So, we cannot enter on that framework of rents, on that framework of coercion.
09:23We really need to see the power we have, that we have a lot of power.
09:27We are a great market.
09:30And we are powerful.
09:32We need to be united.
09:34That is important.
09:35And we really need to use whatever we can use.
09:39A lot of people in this town were disappointed that we had to accept the 15% tariff.
09:44But I think it's sort of a kind of a sober reflection of the bargaining power.
09:50I think that's where the bargaining power is.
09:52Of course, we are really embedded with the U.S.
09:54That's a reality.
09:56We are dependent on many things.
09:57I did a lot on cybersecurity in the previous term.
10:00So, I know what I'm talking about.
10:02I can't tell you.
10:03We are really dependent.
10:04But we really need to rethink that this world order is not anymore working.
10:12And we really need to be smarter and united.
10:15I insist on that.
10:16So, we are a political power and not just economic.
10:19Well, just to some extent, because we haven't discussed Ukraine.
10:22But one of the reasons we accept the 15% tariff is that we don't want the United States to pull out of Ukraine.
10:28Because even though we are doing much more than we used to do, we are still dependent on the United States if we want to support Ukraine.
10:36So, in order to keep the United States in when it comes to Ukraine, we have to accept certain things.
10:42And just a final point, perhaps on Iran, which is on all of our minds here.
10:46What role can the European Union play here to have a say in Iran's hopefully democratic future?
10:50I hope so.
10:52But Iran is a very complicated country and area because it's not like in Venezuela that we knew already for the past elections that most of the population was against the Maduro regime.
11:03This is not the case in Iran.
11:05So, the blood that we can see if we do not act in a very proper way, very clear for democracy, it could be very...
11:19I think we should classify the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization.
11:23And that's, in fact, what Roberta Metzola said to the President of the European Parliament in the exclusive interview this week on Euronews that you can catch.
11:29But I'll stop you there because we want to dive deeper into the debate.
11:35So, now it is time to give our viewers a real taste of the chamber where MEPs, you fire questions over and back to each other.
11:43And you often do not know what exactly is coming.
11:47So, that is what we plan to do right now.
11:49Lina Galvis, would you like to begin with your first question for Mr. Dow?
11:52Now that President Trump set his sights on Greenland, and you are Danish and you are from the EPP,
12:01is your political family, your political party here at the European Parliament,
12:07be more vocal criticizing the United States for certain decisions that affect international law?
12:13Just, we have the case of Venezuela, but with the trade agreement, you were also, you know, not very critical with it.
12:23So, it makes any change now with this Fred and Greenland?
12:28Yes, I think we will.
12:29Because the thing we are going to criticize, as far as I know, the Conference of Presidents is still discussing this,
12:39is that the United States is not honoring the treaties they have made.
12:43So, they are not honoring an old agreement from 1916 that was during the First World War,
12:48and they are not honoring the defense agreement from 1951.
12:51So, we are going to criticize the United States more vocally.
12:54And just to remind our viewers, when you refer to the Conference of Presidents,
12:57you are referring to the meeting of all the various presidents of the political groups here in the Parliament.
13:01Mr. Dow, it's time for you to address your first question to Lina Galvis.
13:05My question is, I think, on behalf of all the Nordic countries and all the Baltic countries,
13:11and it is about Spanish defense spending.
13:13When are you going to reach 3.5% or 5%?
13:18We think that would be a nice act of solidarity.
13:21You know, I'm an academic.
13:23I'm an economics professor.
13:25So, I study what you say before coming here.
13:28And you are very much with efficiency.
13:30So, sometimes you could be efficient with lower expenditure.
13:34And Spain has double expenditure.
13:37And in a very efficient way, really meeting all the targets they will put to the country.
13:45So, I think Spain has made a huge effort, both in terms of budget and efficiency.
13:52So, I think we should really need to look to efficiency, because if we only look to the percentage,
13:58we will be entering in this Trump framework of rents.
14:02And I think this is not what we want, not for Spain, not for Europe.
14:06Mr. Dow, I'll let you catch your breath while you address your next question, please.
14:10I would like an answer on behalf of your Prime Minister,
14:13because your Prime Minister said that nuclear weapons ought to be used against Israel.
14:18Are you in favor of using nuclear weapons against Israel?
14:23To be honest, I haven't heard Pedro Sánchez to say that.
14:29And I really doubt he has said that at all.
14:35To be honest, I haven't...
14:37Where did you hear him say that?
14:38I'm not a pro-nuclear weapon person.
14:42He is not, as far as I know.
14:44I just went in October for a mission in Japan.
14:50I visited Hiroshima that I have never visited in my life.
14:53And I don't think anyone who has really visited Hiroshima,
14:57what happened there, could be in any moment in favor of nuclear weapons.
15:01He said it publicly at a political rally, but I will find the clip.
15:07And we will share it as well.
15:08I really doubt, to be honest.
15:10Lina Galvez, you have the opportunity to address one more question now to Mr. Dow.
15:14Now I'd like to ask you on Venezuela, and also regarding your political group.
15:21You confirmed that your political group rejects the recent military actions carried out unilaterally in Venezuela
15:28and defends that they contribute in the fundamental principle of international law,
15:33even though Venezuela is not a democratic country.
15:36And I know members of your party, especially Spanish EPP,
15:41has been really very concentrated on Venezuela in a way to criticize the Spanish government
15:48without a real case for it, since we have a half million Venezuela in the country.
15:54We have been very vocal on helping to liberate prisoners or even we have the lead of the opposition
16:02in living in our country.
16:04So I would like to know more about it.
16:06We have been very supportive of the democratic opposition.
16:09There was a vote in parliament about whether or not to recognize the election.
16:14We had a lot of discussions about are we supposed to vote for and against.
16:18It's even called a Venezuela majority when we vote with the right wing.
16:23So we have been supportive of the democratic forces in Venezuela all along,
16:28and we are still supporters of the democratic Venezuela.
16:32Sorry, but what about what had happened with the U.S.?
16:35I mean, with the Trump intervention in Venezuela.
16:38It is, of course, a gray zone, and we recognize that we are in a gray zone here.
16:43But you have to consider the fact that Maduro was an illegitimate leader of the country.
16:49Okay, we'll have to close that there.
16:53But thank you so much for addressing questions to each other.
16:56We heard the views there from the MEPs.
16:57I'd also like to bring in a new voice here.
17:03Now we'd like to bring in the voice of Viktor Orban, Prime Minister of Hungary,
17:08who's often known for going against the Brussels line.
17:11In a recent press conference, he praised Trump's operation in Venezuela
17:15and said Hungary will not leave the European Union,
17:19but the European Union will fall apart on its own.
17:23A kind of disintegration will take place and chaos will emerge in leadership.
17:28What do you make of this statement, Mr. Dahl?
17:31I think Viktor Orban is a troll,
17:36and I think you have to understand him as sort of a real-life social media troll
17:41who says outrageous things in order to elicit crazy responses.
17:46So it's kind of the equivalent of rage bait in real life.
17:52Well, he's also in campaign mode.
17:54It's worth pointing out as well to our viewers.
17:56Lina Gavis, if you're part of a club,
17:57should you not be promoting the club and defending it?
18:00Of course.
18:01But I don't think it is a troll.
18:04I think it's part of an international far-right club.
18:11And for him, this is more important.
18:13And they have a plan.
18:14And the plan is to destroy the European Union, as it is,
18:17as it has also written down Trump now in his external strategy.
18:23So I think he's a trojan horse within the European Union.
18:26So probably it is also time for us to act regarding...
18:31Well, I think it's a question of psychology,
18:33because I mean, I think Viktor Orban is totally annoying,
18:37just like you think.
18:38But from a psychological point of view,
18:40I think sometimes you need to ignore annoying people
18:42because they become more annoying if you respond to what they say.
18:46But what he says is so catchy.
18:47That's why we were playing this clip here on Euronews.
18:50But when you go silent, I mean, you ignore it.
18:54It can happen what has happened other times in history.
18:57So I don't think this is the moment.
18:59The same is with Trump.
19:02I will be very humiliated if I will be from Greenland,
19:05just saying, oh, Prime, who is that person that said
19:09Greenland should stay with John Murray?
19:12It was the prime minister.
19:13So this continuous humiliation, I'm a woman,
19:16I feel humiliated for him every time he opens his mouth.
19:20And so I don't think we should stay silent.
19:23We should be very vocal.
19:24He will lose the next election and then we get rid of him.
19:27Well, we'll have to stay tuned to see what exactly happens
19:29in those elections taking place on the 12th of April.
19:32We'll cover them very carefully for you here on Euronews.
19:34But now it is time to take a short break.
19:37But stay with us because we'll be back very, very soon
19:39with some more political punch from the European Parliament.
19:50Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debating show.
19:54I'm joined here by MEP's Heinrich Dahl
19:56and Lina Galvez.
19:58And the idea here is to bring European Parliament debates
20:00exactly to your couch.
20:02But we also want to bring in how the public feel
20:04about all these topics.
20:05And actually, before the events of the past month,
20:07we saw Europeans were already increasingly wary
20:10of US power on the global stage.
20:12According to a survey of the European Council of Foreign Relations,
20:15about 49% of EU citizens no longer see the United States
20:19as a true ally, viewing it instead as a necessary partner.
20:24And according to the Coupe d'études géopolitiques,
20:2670% of Europeans, so 7 in 10, say the European Union
20:31should rely on its own armed forces for security.
20:35And only 10% believe Europe can rely on the US for defence.
20:39So there seems to be a very strong demand out there
20:42for European strategic autonomy.
20:44I would like to get your views as well,
20:46especially for you, Lina Galvez, as a socialist.
20:48I know this topic is very tricky when it comes to where the money
20:51should be focused.
20:51Well, I think, yes, if we really need to move
20:54towards strategic autonomy, we really need to increase
20:58our security and defence capacities.
21:01Your voters in Spain, do they support this?
21:03Oh, well, in Spain, less than in other countries.
21:07But still, it is a question of talking, really,
21:12that what is the reality and that we really need to move more
21:15on defence and security, but also to make the changes
21:18that will make this strategic autonomy possible.
21:22Because unless we move to more Europe in other policy areas
21:27like more fiscal linear or even industrial policies,
21:31a common industrial policies, we really cannot talk
21:34about strategic autonomy.
21:37So what will Europeans have to give up to reach this goal?
21:40I don't know.
21:41I think that's why you have politics,
21:43because sometimes things are possible in politics
21:45that you didn't think were possible.
21:46But let me say, I was a little bit puzzled
21:50when President Macron introduced strategic autonomy in 2017.
21:54But he was ahead of his time.
21:56It was very visionary what he said.
21:58And I'm very happy that 7 out of 10 people
22:01believe in this concept, because I think
22:04it's the right thing to do.
22:05But because the US is, quite frankly, not there.
22:07We're seeing that on a daily basis.
22:09And that's why there's so much pressure as well on Spain
22:11to increase defence funding.
22:12Exactly.
22:13But of course, we have to discuss priorities.
22:16That's what we do at home.
22:17That's what I did for almost a decade.
22:19And once you have this debate about priorities,
22:22I think most people are able to understand the landing zone
22:25eventually, where the compromise is.
22:27But that means perhaps that Emmanuel Macron's strategy did work here.
22:30Well, it is.
22:31I think it is working.
22:32We are moving towards that.
22:34At least a part of the chamber.
22:35I go back to what I was saying at the very beginning.
22:37There are part of the chamber, almost a third of the chamber,
22:40that are really against more Europe.
22:42And if we want to advance and to have a strategic autonomy,
22:45it's a very ample aspect.
22:48And we are doing already.
22:49We are also putting in this dual use.
22:52I'm the rapporteur from my group on the new framework program
22:55on research and innovation.
22:57And we are including dual use for everything.
22:59So the security expenditure on politics,
23:04it does not go only directly on security and defence,
23:08but also in other policies.
23:10And we are moving towards that.
23:11Because people are worried.
23:12Our viewers are concerned that we will not be able to protect
23:14the social economy that we're so proud of here in Europe.
23:17No, that's what Ukraine tells us.
23:19Because let's assume that we decided to go all in and help Ukraine.
23:23Still, what we could muster would not be enough.
23:26We are still dependent on the United States if we want to keep Russia at bay.
23:31And it's dawning on more and more people that this is the way things are.
23:34But it's not what people want, clearly, as you've seen from that poll.
23:37Yeah, but we need more Europe.
23:39I mean, of course, there are a lot of disinformation going on.
23:42And there is a lot of engineers of chaos, as Giuliano Dempoli is saying,
23:47behind those polls, too.
23:49So there is a lot of misinformation going on.
23:52And a lot of actors that really want to destroy the European Union.
23:56And this is also reflected in the polls, in a way or another.
23:59And in the populism is that as well.
24:01So we really need to have that in mind.
24:03And what does that mean, then, on a practical level, having more Europe?
24:05Does it mean radical reforms here?
24:07We thought in Europe that we could do without hard power.
24:10But it turns out that hard power is a necessity.
24:13And we have to supply the hard power ourselves.
24:16And that means that we have to change our priorities.
24:19Are our leaders, though, bold enough?
24:21Do they have enough vision?
24:22Yeah, when you put them under pressure.
24:24But they are risk-aversive because they want to be re-elected.
24:27But you have to put them under a certain amount of pressure.
24:28But it's not the problem, though.
24:29Always under pressure, under crisis, the EU can work.
24:31And if not, it's just let's wait and see, kind of.
24:34Well, we have managed in the past.
24:35To be honest, when we were in front of a crisis,
24:38we were able to go out with a more Europe or a better Europe.
24:42I hope this time will be the same.
24:44However, there is a big difference.
24:46It's the polls, it's the public opinion that is more anti-European in certain areas,
24:53in certain places, and some parties that are inside the chamber and also in the council
24:57that are really against the idea of the Europe we have been building.
25:01It is time to move on to our fifth and final round.
25:04Are you ready?
25:04Now it is time for something a little bit different.
25:12I'm going to be asking our guests, MEPs, quick questions on set.
25:17And they only have the permission to answer with a yes or a no answer.
25:22I'm not very good at that.
25:23Is that doable?
25:24Yes.
25:24Yeah.
25:25OK.
25:25Well, on that positive point, we can start.
25:28Is the European Union the best place in the world to live?
25:31Yes or no?
25:32Yes.
25:33Yes.
25:33Do you think the future of the European Union is bright?
25:39Yes.
25:40Let's say yes.
25:41Let me be optimistic.
25:42I think so, too.
25:44Are the EU institutions fit for purpose, Lina Galvas, yes or no?
25:49No.
25:50What about you, Mr. Dal?
25:52No, they need to tighten up.
25:54Could the European Union defend itself alone if the United States did not step in to help, Mr. Dal?
26:01No.
26:02Lina?
26:03No.
26:03Can the European Union respond quickly enough to various global crises, yes or no, Lina Galvas?
26:11No.
26:12What about you, Mr. Dal?
26:13No.
26:15Is the role of Kaya Callas, that's the EU Foreign Affairs Chief, is it important, yes or no?
26:20No.
26:21Mr. Dal, same question to you.
26:23Yes, I think so.
26:24What about Trump's attempts to take Greenland?
26:29Could this see the end of the NATO alliance, Mr. Dal?
26:33Yes.
26:34What about you, Mr. Dal?
26:35Yes.
26:35Yeah?
26:36Should the European Union have its own army, Lina Galvas?
26:40Yes.
26:40Would you agree with that, yes or no?
26:42Should we have our own army?
26:43No.
26:43And are EU leaders, do you think, in control of their own destiny?
26:50No.
26:50Yes or no?
26:53Yes.
26:54Is it time to radically reform the EU, yes or no?
26:57Yes.
26:58Yes.
26:58And on that point of the need to radically reform, we can bring this conversation to
27:04an end.
27:04I'm sure you could continue discussing all these issues at length, but this does bring
27:08this show to an end.
27:09Thank you so much as well to our viewers for tuning in.
27:12If you would like to reach out to us and let us know how you feel about any of these topics,
27:16you can read or you can write to us on The Ring at uranews.com.
27:20But for now, thank you so much for watching.
27:22Thank you also to Lina Galvas and to Henrik Dal from Denmark for joining us and being our
27:27guests.
27:27Take care and see you soon here on Euronews.
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