- 4 weeks ago
Today on The Cameron Journal Podcast, we are joined by Zolal Habibi, an iranian activist who advocates for freedom in Iran. She spends 45 minutes with us explaining the current protests in Iran, as well as, what can come next for the country. She also walks us through the robust government in exile and the activities of the resistance movements both within Iran and the diaspora. She also explains why Iran needs democracy and not a return of the Shah. Honestly, she is so informative and so lovely, I don't really talk much in this one and I just let her walk us through it all.
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NewsTranscript
00:00And
00:29we will do.
00:59Hello, everyone.
01:04My name is Cameron Cowan.
01:05Welcome to the Cameron Journal podcast on this special unscheduled live.
01:10I am very pleased to be joined by Zolal Habibi.
01:16I didn't almost know pre-production, but we're going to figure it out.
01:19And the reason why, so this is normally a podcast recording, and normally we would just record
01:24the podcast and talk about the book or whatever it is and then move on quickly.
01:29But because today this is so prescient to what's going on in Tehran and throughout Iran right
01:34now, I have, with seconds of warning, let our guests know that we're going to be going straight
01:42live in addition to recording this.
01:45So we're going to find out all about this wonderful activist history and what she does and her
01:51thoughts together, because, again, I've only read the Podmatch profile.
01:54So welcome, Zolal, to the Cameron Journal podcast.
01:57Thank you for having me, and I would like to greet everyone who's tuning in or watching
02:03this podcast today or afterwards.
02:06Thank you for having me.
02:08Yes, no, thank you.
02:09And we've got a great group already.
02:10We have a dozen, which is great for 2.30 in the afternoon on a Wednesday.
02:15So let's just dive right in to let us know a little bit about yourself and your activism.
02:23Let's get to know each other a little bit first.
02:24Well, as you introduced, my name is Zolal, and I am an activist with the Iranian resistance
02:33movement, and I am a member of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, which is the
02:39Parliament in Exile, which has been concentrated on the overthrow of this regime since 1981.
02:49I joined the Iranian resistance at the age of 18, 19, and I have dedicated the most part
03:01of my life to the cause of freedom in Iran.
03:04I am from a generation that unfortunately has never had the opportunity to see Iran or be
03:12in Iran.
03:13My parents came to the U.S. before the revolution, so I've never had the chance to go to Iran.
03:18But I can sincerely say that there hasn't been a day that I have not thought about the plight
03:24of the Iranian people and what they are going through.
03:27And so these days are very critical days.
03:31And we hope that finally, after all the bloodshed, after all the hardships, after all the sacrifices
03:42that have been made, we will finally be able to see a free, secular, democratic republic in
03:50Iran.
03:50Yes, I've been sort of modestly aware of some of the resistance and in exile organizations.
04:03And so you've listed all of them so well.
04:05So thank you, because I was kind of vaguely aware they existed, didn't know names or people.
04:09We've now met names and people, their names and you as a people.
04:14So that's very exciting.
04:17Um, let's dive right into the question I think everyone has on their minds, and that
04:23is protesting Iran.
04:25We've heard this story before.
04:27Um, I grew up, you know, my dad was a cold warrior and left the, right before the invasion
04:34of Kuwait to get rid of Saddam and whatnot.
04:37And he always maintained in his old military guy type of way, you know, all Iran needs is
04:43one good solid protest and the whole country comes apart.
04:45And is the, and he told me that when I was like 12, that was 20, a long time ago, never
04:52mind, um, long time ago.
04:54And, um, and so from time to time we hear about protests that usually get suppressed, all
05:00this type of thing, people get arrested and, and, and the Ayatollahs seem to hang on to
05:05power.
05:05Um, what makes these protests different and why is everybody kind of hopeful that this
05:14is, this is it for, for them, especially given the activism by the Shah's son, Ressa Pazli.
05:20So, um, that's not how to pronounce his name, Cameron.
05:23Anyway, what makes these protests different?
05:24What sets these protests, uh, apart from all the previous protests, it's actually the nature
05:31and the signature of these protests.
05:33I think, um, first of all, let's, um, go back a bit.
05:38These, we see the, uh, how the demonstrations in Iran are evolving or the uprisings in Iran
05:45are evolving, um, from year to year.
05:48Um, if you go back, come back in 1981, which was the first major, um, protest and uprising
05:58against Khomeini at the time, um, after the 1979 revolution, uh, was June 20th, 1981, when,
06:05uh, a spontaneous peaceful protest, um, of 500,000 people in Tehran, um, supporting the people's
06:15majority organization of Iran was, uh, attacked, Khomeini ordered, uh, for its revolutionary
06:23guards and, um, to actually open fire on the peaceful protesters.
06:28And that is when the resistance went underground in Iran.
06:33And it's been a continuous fight from June 20th, 1981 till today.
06:38Um, but if you see, like, for instance, then there was the 1999 student uprisings, then 2009,
06:44then 2017, uh, uh, 19, 22, and now today, um, each time it has evolved in its methods, in
06:55its, um, growth and how extensive it has been, and also in its slogans and its demands.
07:05Uh, today the protest began with the economic situation in Iran, which the economic crisis,
07:11uh, with the strike of the bazaar, uh, you have to understand the importance of the bazaar.
07:17Iran's economy is based on the bazaar.
07:20The bazaar is, I guess, kind of like the wall streets of, of Iran.
07:25And, um, historically it also plays an important role because, uh, the point when the bazaar joined
07:33the protest in 1979, 1978 was a turning point in the revolution in 1979, so it's always had
07:42a very important role, the bazaar.
07:44Um, it was on the second day, the bazaar's strike was joined by students, uh, and within
07:52days it started spreading.
07:54And now it has spread to all 31 provinces across Iran and in over about 200 cities.
08:01Um, what is important, I think, is that immediately within the first hours, the slogans and the
08:07chants and the demands of the protesters was the overthrow of the regime with slogans of
08:13down with Khomeini, down with the dictator, down with the oppressor, be it the Shah or the
08:19Mullahs, uh, actually what they're trying to emphasize is the fact that we want to move
08:25forward.
08:27So unfortunately there's this narrative and scenario that you actually kind of pointed
08:33it to now too.
08:34So I'm going to explain it.
08:36There's this narrative and scenario that when it comes to Iran, there are two options on
08:39the table.
08:41Um, when it comes to Iran as in, what is the solution?
08:45And what is, what is, uh, what needs to be done?
08:49One is they usually say, well, we're stuck between the appeasement policy and negotiation,
08:55diplomatic relations with Iran or a firm policy, which unfortunately is translated into war or
09:04foreign intervention.
09:06Um, and then it's like, you have to choose between these two.
09:10Um, well, the message of the Iranian resistance for the past 20 years, and this is my magic.
09:15We actually stated this at the European parliament, uh, 21 years ago, almost.
09:20Um, she stated that there is a third option on Iran.
09:24We're not stuck between choosing between war and appeasement.
09:29The third option is supporting the Iranian people and their organized resistance because
09:34the Iranian people have the capability and the capacity to be able to create change.
09:38Um, so that's on one hand.
09:42The other is people say, well, what are the people's choices for after the overthrow of
09:48the regime?
09:49Uh, what is presented as well, you either have to, you know, live with this current regime
09:55or you have to go back to the previous dictatorship.
09:59Well, the message of the Iranian people is no, we're not stuck between two dictatorships.
10:03We don't have to choose between bad and worse.
10:05We want to move forward into the 21st century with a secular democratic republic in Iran where
10:13the ballot box is the final criterion and where there's people's sovereignty instead of having
10:22to live under, you know, a dictatorship and, uh, and its rule.
10:26Um, so that is the message that's coming in from Iran, unfortunately, there are different
10:31narratives that are being pushed, but it's not exactly, it's not what the people of Iran
10:35are asking for.
10:36So the Iranian people, they believe that we have the capability and the capacity to create
10:43change.
10:44And this is something that has been seen.
10:45You have to understand the historic background.
10:49The Iranian people in the last 100 years, they have dealt with, um, unfortunately, like
10:56for instance, Reza Shah was brought in by the British.
10:59So it was imposed on the Iranian people and then he was brought, taken out the US and MI6 brought
11:07in his son, Mohamed Al-Zapahlavi, then he was taken out.
11:11And then the West actually brought in Khomeini because they made that decision in Guadalupe
11:17that it would be to their benefit because it was the Cold War.
11:20Then USSR is bordering Iran from the north.
11:23And then, so if you have someone who's religious and anti-communism, it would be to our benefit
11:31because the revolutionary forces, but actually created the revolution in 1979, were all still
11:38in prison or had been executed.
11:40And so there was this vacuum and Khomeini came and filled that vacuum and really stole
11:45the revolution.
11:46So the people of Iran didn't revolt to, in 1979 to end the monarchy in Iran, to bring
11:55in a religious dictatorship.
11:58Unfortunately, their revolution was stolen.
12:00So now people feel like this is our chance.
12:04This is our turn to be able to actually bring about a true democracy in Iran, a democratic
12:11republic in Iran.
12:13And I'm fortunate we are in the days of that for many are a reminder of the 1979 revolution
12:22because the 1979 revolution was happening during these months.
12:26It took place in the final, the end of the monarchy and the victory of the revolution was
12:35on February 10th, but February 11th, actually.
12:42And so right now we are in those days.
12:45The last set of political prisoners had been released on January 20th that year.
12:51So there's a lot of, you know, that resemblance.
12:53And that's something that Iranians, it means a great deal to them.
12:57So right now the message on the ground is we want to see the overthrow of this regime.
13:02They are asking for international help.
13:07And that means first, recognize our right to resist and to fight back with the mothers.
13:14Two is blacklist the IRGC.
13:19The US has done that, but like Europe, UK, they have not.
13:24So that is what they're requesting.
13:26Because the IRGC is the force that is being funded and it's suppressing the people on the ground.
13:33The third is to hold the regime accountable for its crimes against humanity
13:39and its war crimes that it's committing right now on the streets in Iran.
13:45And so these are the basic demands of the Iranian people.
13:50They do want help, so help would be, but help doesn't necessarily mean troops on the ground.
13:58It means provide internet connection for people to have communication methods.
14:03The reality is, unfortunately, today is day five of the internet shut down in Iran.
14:08And unfortunately, it has come at a very, very high cost with thousands and thousands of people who have died.
14:15And unfortunately, connection, communication is very limited.
14:21So it's very hard to verify the exact numbers, but it's a massacre what is happening right now in the streets.
14:27We are seeing the images that the regime itself is publishing of bodies on the ground
14:33and asking their families to come and identify them.
14:37Why does the regime do that?
14:38They want to spread fear in society.
14:40This is something that we've seen, as I said, in 1981.
14:46In 1981, the regime used to print in its newspapers,
14:50would the parents of these children come and identify their bodies
14:53because we don't even know their names and they've been executed?
14:56And they would have a newspaper with pictures of all these children who've been executed, teenagers.
15:02There is a famous newspaper article that cut out, actually.
15:09It's from 1981.
15:12It's from a French newspaper.
15:14It says 200 children executed overnight in Iran.
15:18And back then, every single day, the newspaper would print a whole list of names
15:25of people who had been executed that day.
15:27And that is how Khomeini was able to create fear in society and be able to keep control over society.
15:35I, unfortunately, know a lot of families who, they still remember in, you know, the newspaper,
15:45Kehan or Etelad, that they opened what day it was, on what page, number, like 76, number 52,
15:52was the name of my brother, my mother, my sister, who was executed.
15:57And this is something that just stays with you.
15:59And so that's how the regime spread fear.
16:01And now they're trying to do that again because they have that experience.
16:06And, unfortunately, we also saw over the summer in July,
16:11the reality is that the Iranian regime has known for a while that if an uprising starts in Iran,
16:17ignites in Iran again, this time it's going to be for the overthrow of the regime.
16:22And it's going to be very difficult for the regime to control the scenario and the narrative on the ground.
16:28In July, there was an article in Farce News Agency, which belongs to the Revolutionary Guards,
16:35stating that we need to repeat the experience that we have from the 1988 massacre.
16:40In 1988, in the summer of 1988, the Iranian regime executed 30,000 people in five, six weeks,
16:48right after the end of the Iran-Iraq war.
16:51Because with the Iran-Iraq war for eight years,
16:54Khomeini was able to suppress any kind of dissent internally,
16:57saying that if you say anything opposing me, that means you're with the enemy.
17:03And when the war ended, which was a devastating war, over a million people had been killed.
17:10450,000 children were sent to wipe out the minefields.
17:16So you could just understand the country was in destruction,
17:20and people were fed up with the regime, and Khomeini knew that.
17:23So what did he do?
17:24That week, that week that the war ended,
17:29he had the massacre of 30,000 political prisoners.
17:33And with that, every family in Iran had either lost someone,
17:36or they knew someone who had been killed.
17:38And with that, they were able to keep people silenced for another decade.
17:43So right now, the regime is trying to use the same tactics.
17:47But the difference is that today, the people of Iran have learned from those experiences.
17:53They know that no one's going to handle freedom in the silver platter.
17:57We have to pay a price for it.
17:58And unfortunately, that price is going to be high.
18:01But sitting behind or standing behind to safeguard your own life is not going to get you anywhere.
18:11Because a lot of the youth in Iran right now are saying,
18:15we might be alive, we might be breathing, but this is not a life that we have.
18:20And so they want to see a change, and they want to see this regime overthrown.
18:25And that's the inspiration and the ambition that we're seeing in Iran's Gen Z, who bravely are standing.
18:32And I think one of the main characteristics of this uprising is that nature.
18:38They're on the offensive now.
18:41They are disarming the security forces.
18:44They are targeting centers of suppression.
18:49And they're very united on the streets.
18:51They help one another.
18:52They stand together.
18:54And they protect one another.
18:56And I think that unity is something that's unprecedented.
19:01And I think one of the other elements is the fact that you see organizational structure in these uprisings.
19:09Where does that come from?
19:10About 12 years ago, 13 years ago almost, the Iranian resistance announced a strategy.
19:20And that was the strategy of creating resistance units throughout Iran.
19:25The message was those who are on the ground, they're local, they have an understanding of the city, they know who they can trust, form units, come together, organize together, and start, you know, your activities against the regime.
19:49It started with writing, you know, slogans on the wall or keeping hope alive, keeping the hope alive and targeting the Iranian regime, revealing the nature of the Iranian regime.
20:03And this has increased to a point that last year we had about the activities of the resistance units in the last year.
20:14So in the Persian year, which we are kind of at the end of it now, but in 2024, practically, we had over 40,000 activities carried out by resistance units throughout Iran.
20:27And they also targeted over 3,000 centers of oppression.
20:32That's acted as a example for society.
20:39And so that's why when these protests broke out this time, everyone in a way knew what they were supposed to do, because they've been seeing it on the streets every single day throughout Iran.
20:50So they knew what the chants were, they knew what their slogans were, they knew what their demands were, and they knew what they need to target and what they need to concentrate on.
20:57And so that, I think, is something that's unprecedented.
21:01And we saw, like, for instance, last week in the province of Elam, even though it was the first province that the regime really cracked down on, the Iranian regime attacked the hospital, which is a war crime.
21:13But despite that, the people there were able to come together, organize, and we saw that in one night, two adjacent towns were liberated by the people.
21:25They were able to push out all the suppressive forces with their unity, with their organizational structure that they had created.
21:33So that is a new phenomenon that we're seeing on the ground right now in Iran, and that is what sets it apart from all the previous demonstrations.
21:41And I think that's what the regime fears the most, because the Iranian regime knows that because of Iran's geography, at the end of the day, the only thing that can really overthrow it is the people in masses.
21:54And for these people to turn to really, these rebellious youth to turn to, like, the liberation army of Iran, and that is what it fears the most, because at the end of the day, because of Iran's geography and how extensive it is, troops on the ground or some kind of attack is not really going to lead to the overthrow of the regime.
22:17In fact, since it can't do that, the regime knows that this is key for them.
22:24That's why they've cut off the internet now to be able to suppress with open hands, kill with open hands on the streets, because there's no one documenting it in a way.
22:33But we are receiving a lot of videos, footage coming in very trickled through very difficult means.
22:41But we are receiving reports on daily basis, it might be with one day delay, but we are receiving the reports.
22:49And the one message that people are trying to give, especially in the last 24 hours, that phone lines in certain areas have been restored, we have been able to actually get this message.
23:01The only message they're trying to send out is that we are continuing, we have not stopped, despite the bloodshed, and they want to give that message to the international community that we're still standing, we're still fighting.
23:15So please don't turn your eyes away from Iran, concentrate on Iran, and help us so we can create change.
23:21Well, take a breath, I've had a whole bunch of questions, and you've answered all of them.
23:27But let's just take a breath, let's process all that together, shall we, everyone?
23:31Oh my goodness, this is, yes, this is very exciting and highly organized, and there's a lot, a lot going on there.
23:46I always laugh about, as an American with an American perspective, and someone who has a master's degree in international relations and studied asymmetrical warfare and terrorism, and has spent probably more time than most people studying Iran-Iraq war and the revolution, all this type of thing.
24:07I always laugh about our country's issue with Iran.
24:10I'm kind of like, we did this to ourselves.
24:12We're the idiots that got rid of Mossadegh.
24:14Thank you, Kermit Roosevelt.
24:15I'm like, we've, this is a self-wound.
24:18We shot our own selves in the foot and sent them the bill.
24:22Like, it's, um.
24:25Yeah, that's one of the reasons the Iranian people are very, I mean, you know, the Iranian people, that's one of the reasons they say we need to be able to create that change ourselves because we have the experience of Mossadegh.
24:40Dr. Mossadegh was the only democratic government Iran-Iraq was the only democratic government Iran ever had.
24:45Somewhat democratic, at least.
24:47Yes.
24:47And, um, just because he nationalized oil, he wasn't to the benefit of, unfortunately, Western powers, and so he was overthrown.
24:54And look what, where we are today.
24:56So, that is the issue.
24:58No, it's a huge, it's honestly such a huge self-own.
25:01Um, I know because I follow a lot of, so let me just say, first of all, I'm very sad about the situation in Iran because I don't know why, but for some reason I have an affinity for this.
25:15This sounds so woo-woo and dumb, but I have, like, a weird affinity.
25:18I've always wanted to go and check out Tehran, and I've always wanted to, to go and experience this sort of, I mean, it's one of the oldest civilizations in the world.
25:28It's like going to China sort of thing.
25:30So, I've always had a very particular affinity for that place, um, and I always kind of secretly hope one day a better government will come in and I'll get to cruise on over.
25:41Um, and, uh.
25:43That's always been my dream, too, because, as I said, I've, um, I've never had the chance to actually go to Iran, but my family belongs, is, comes from Shiraz, which is, like, supposed to be this paradise that, unfortunately, we've never had the chance to see.
25:58I remember from, like, childhood, that was, like, my wish on every birthday cake.
26:05My dad used to tell me, will we in Iran in six months?
26:08And then, my, my wish was in Iran, in a free Iran next year.
26:15Uh, but I think 2026 maybe is the final year that we will make, we will be able to, uh, make that dream come true.
26:22No, absolutely.
26:23I've always, I've always wanted to go, I've always wanted to, to, to check it out.
26:29I, years ago, I, I do developmental editing for books, and among all of this, and, uh, years and years ago, I had, um, edited a book for this man who was living in Germany, and it was about his childhood and escape from Iran and, and his experience in prison.
26:48He'd gotten arrested for soliciting prostitution, and I, I enjoyed a lot about that book, including the way he described this very classy, sort of, you know, you go to this lovely house where these ladies live, sort of.
27:00It was all, I'm kind of, like, very civilized.
27:02Um, I, I, I enjoyed it, sort of thing.
27:04Um, and I, as I, I'd enjoyed that, and I'm just kind of, like, I want to go to all these places.
27:08I don't need to necessarily be visiting the prostitutes or anything.
27:10I just, I just want to go and see the architecture and meet people.
27:12One of my favorite actresses, Sheree, Sheree Agadashaloo, is a Iranian, and I've read all of her memoirs.
27:18There are two of them.
27:19I've read them both.
27:20So, I've been stuck on this country for a while.
27:23It's a very weird thing.
27:24Um, but I, I do have kind of a, a bit of an odd question.
27:28I know it's a bit of a sticky point.
27:30I, I know that the Shah's not popular for a lot of reasons.
27:34The man used to have his lunch sent in by Concord.
27:36The people were starving.
27:37Like, I understand, like, there's a reason no one was sad to see him go.
27:42So, not that I'm advocating for this, but is that in all the institutions that you have in your, in your diaspora, is there any opportunity to leverage him now, like his son, obviously, but him, his son, that institution, is there any way to leverage that as part of a transition stability?
28:05You know, maybe take a, a page out of Britain's book, Constitutional Monarchy.
28:08You get to stand and wave flags.
28:10You're here to look good.
28:11Other people will deal with the governing sort of thing.
28:14Like, is there any opportunity for that?
28:16Or do we just need to be entirely rid of that conversation altogether and just move on to, to, to Republican, small R Republican, small D democracy?
28:25So.
28:26Um, well, actually, I think it's a really good question to ask and it's necessary one to answer.
28:31Um, so I'll be more than happy to answer this one because I was just putting it out there.
28:36It may be helpful.
28:37I just, I, I know nothing.
28:38So, yeah, I think it's a very important question to ask.
28:42Um, so this is, this is the thing, uh, the Iranian people had a revolution for a reason.
28:49It wasn't only the poverty, which same situation now.
28:53I mean, um, the times are different, but back then people were suffering from poverty too.
28:59And back then people were suffering from this class difference that you saw in society.
29:05But that wasn't all the only factor.
29:07One of the main factors was also the Savak.
29:09Um, his executions, the secret police, the tortures.
29:13Right.
29:13Yeah.
29:14Um, I was looking at a report from Amnesty International back in 1978.
29:20Iran was the number one country in executions.
29:23Today, Iran is number one country in execution.
29:26So during the Shah's time and the Malala's time, unfortunately, they've held the record in this area.
29:33Um, the level is not comparable, but things have also changed.
29:40So, I mean, the reality is that both were a dictatorship.
29:44Maybe one, we always say that, unfortunately, for the people of Iran, a regime came into power, which was so brutal that it kind of whitewashed the crimes of the Shah.
29:56But it doesn't wash it away.
29:58Those happened.
29:59That was the reality.
30:01Those are still grieving families.
30:02Some people lost family members.
30:04I know people who still have the scars of torture on their bodies.
30:09Aziz Rezaei, she's an 82-year-old woman who, three of her sons and one daughter was killed by the Shah.
30:20Her son was dubbed the Rose of the Revolution because he was this young guy.
30:28When he was exited, he was 19.
30:30When he was arrested, he was 16.
30:32And to this day, when you hear, um, he was the only one who had actually a public trial because the regime thought they had bribed him into coming in, you know, admitting that he was wrong or whatnot.
30:44And so he, he, he, he played them and so there was an international reporter there and so that's the one, um, court case that you still actually have the audio and pictures of and the reality she still had the scars of torture.
30:59Why was she in prison only because of her children, she, they, she had, she was in prison too, and she was tortured severely by the sidewalks.
31:07So these are things that the people of your own haven't forgotten.
31:10Um, it doesn't time does not wash away things or make you forget the realities of what happened during the shots.
31:16And the people had the pain that they came to the streets that it wasn't just because, you know, we had a good.
31:22And so let's take to the streets.
31:23That's not how it works.
31:25So there's that past, but where it, I mean, you should judge each person by their own records and not like their family, even though he is promoting a monarchy, which would be hereditary.
31:39But anyway, let's even put that aside, what has he done for the people of Iran in the last 47 years, nothing, but so ever, he has not held a job for one day.
31:51He has not, he was not, he has not been able to form one organization that lasts more than six months.
31:58He has no, you know, how is he going to rule a country, even if he means that I'm just going to be a figure.
32:07And to be honest, we've heard that before from Khomeini.
32:11Khomeini said, well, when I go to Iran, I don't want to be in politics.
32:14I'm going to go to home and I'm going to continue my religious studies.
32:18So that doesn't fool the people of Iran anymore.
32:21But the reality is that unfortunately, so the issue right now is not rivalry for us as the Iranian opposition.
32:29If he had the capability to create change and overthrow this regime, we would say, you know, hats off to you.
32:36Oh, please go ahead.
32:37We'll support you if needed.
32:39But that's not the reality.
32:41And that's not what he's doing.
32:42In fact, he's trying to hijack an uprising.
32:46And that's just wrong.
32:48But aside from that.
32:49I also heard from someone who has met him and spoken with him extensively that I will try to have on the show here soon.
32:58And they said, because I asked this person about this and he said, really nice guy, no teeth, no ability to rule this country in any meaningful, meaningful way sort of thing.
33:12And I was kind of like.
33:14I've heard that from someone too.
33:16Yeah, I'm kind of like, oh, well, okay, that kind of makes sense.
33:19I guess my thought was just kind of like, sometimes it's nice to have a figure, a touchstone person as a stabilization for us.
33:25But it sounds like he's wholly useless.
33:27So we'll just proceed on with the democracy conversation.
33:30But I think there's two more factors that maybe it's because I think a lot of people who are viewing this, they might have that question because this is something that is being presented in social media and some media outlets, because there are interest groups behind it.
33:48But the one thing is that for the first time after 47 years, he has given a roadmap, something he put together.
33:57It's about 170 pages.
33:59It's available in English and Farsi.
34:01People can read it.
34:03It's supposed to be his plan for the future.
34:06If you look at it, he says we are going to revive the Savak, but the Savak is going to be responding to him directly.
34:16And like, for instance, I mean, the things that he said in this, it's really, if you read it, it's like the blueprint for a dictatorship worse than his dad's.
34:26Because even his dad had certain checks and balances in place to some extent, even if they were just for show, but they existed.
34:37This doesn't exist.
34:38And he says that we're going to have for about 20 months, we're going to have a police state.
34:46So like, for instance, there's going to be curfews in all major cities in Iran, this and that to be able to make sure that he can control things.
34:52And I mean, if you read through it, it's really mind boggling to see it.
35:01It seems so out of step.
35:03I've heard nothing but what you've said.
35:05And it sounds completely out of step with the way things are on the ground, as you've also described it.
35:10Yeah.
35:11And the other thing is that, like, for instance, one of the main things that people have been asking him, especially after 2022, this issue has come up more and more after 2022 and the uprisings.
35:22And that, like, how do you plan on?
35:26Because, I mean, you can't as an individual, fine, you go there.
35:29What are you going to run the country with?
35:32He keeps on saying that I rely on the same forces that are in the military now, in the suppressive forces now.
35:42And he just says, like, I have connections with people in the IRGC.
35:45I have connections with people in Basij.
35:48So he wants to recycle those suppressive forces to become his forces.
35:55And that's exactly what Khomeini did after his father.
35:58Because those who were most of the people who worked in Savak, like, aside from the heads of Savak, like, Pavi Savati, who came to the U.S., the rest of them, the name was just changed from Savak to Vevak.
36:12But it's still the same people and the same methods, the same prison, the same tortures.
36:18A nice man came around and changed all the signs, you know, sort of thing.
36:21They even saved the end, just put up the new letters sort of thing, like, oh, yes, we're this now, and get moving, you know, yes.
36:29Yeah.
36:29And so this is, like, an issue for people of your own.
36:32They're like, okay, you know, we are not ones, like, for instance, the Iranian resistance, on the other hand, Mrs. Marjavi.
36:40First of all, the thing is that an alternative actually exists, and that's what's key.
36:45An alternative that's not on paper, but in practice.
36:49I mean, it has the papers, too.
36:51Like, for instance, the NCRI has a complete book about the interim government, how it's going to be for six months, then how there's going to be an assembly form to put together the Constitution, and then there's going to be free elections.
37:07This is how it's going to proceed, this is how it's going to be, and for the interim government, when you look at the plans put in place, it's not, as I said, it's not just words or written on paper.
37:18We've seen it in practice.
37:20The National Council of Resisting of Iran was formed July 1981.
37:24So, since July 1981, people have seen its actions and that it stands by its values and principles, and that has been key.
37:32It hasn't always been their decisions.
37:36Maybe, like, it wasn't popular in that day, but over time, everyone realized that they made the right decision then.
37:45Like, for instance...
37:45That's the organizations you should be partnering with.
37:48If Reza probably is serious about this, they should be going to that to be kind of like, let's, you know, to work with all that and become part of those plans and adopt those rather than trying to be like, well, let's just roll the clock back to, like, February 1st, 1979 and just proceed on as if the last 50 years haven't happened.
38:06Yeah, buddy, that's not going to work.
38:08It's 2026.
38:09Check your calendar, buddy.
38:10Like, it's, you know, times have changed.
38:13Yeah, the importance of the National Council of Resistance of Iran is from the day it was formed, it has set, like, three criterions.
38:20And they said, anyone who agrees with these, you're welcome to join.
38:24So, they created, like, a coalition.
38:26There are different ethnic groups, different ethnicities, different religions, different political views represented in this council.
38:40And everyone has an equal vote.
38:44So, it's not like if you're from the larger organization, you're going to have a stronger vote than the person that maybe their group is just one or two people.
38:52It doesn't work that way.
38:53So, it has 500 members and 52% of which are women, which is very important.
39:00So, the president-elect of the National Council of Resistance of Iran for the interim government is a woman, Maryam Rajavi.
39:09And she has a 10-point plan for the future of Iran.
39:14The 10-point plan kind of acts as a, I guess, it's the summary of that, you know, all the plans of the NCRI for the future of Iran.
39:24But it also serves as, like, a road map.
39:27People call it, many lawmakers have called it Jeffersonian.
39:32It's, like, for instance, number one is to have the ballot box be the final criterion for there to be, like, people's sovereignty in Iran.
39:43The second is, like, for instance, it's abolition of the death penalty and all forms of execution and torture and abolition of all the suppressive forces and entities, because right now in Iran, there are many of them.
40:00And so, that's really important for people inside of Iran.
40:05So, one of the other things is in regards to women's equality and actually empowerment of women, which is one of the key platforms of Mrs. Rajavi.
40:18She has really, she's a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights.
40:24And because, like, for instance, the entire leadership council of the MEK, which is, like, the main organization member of the NCRI, are all women.
40:39She believes in women's empowerment because she believes that through women's empowerment and having women present in leadership,
40:46we can break those misogynist structures in society, and it's really emancipating both for men and women.
40:59And because women have been suppressed systematically in Iran for so long, just imagine when that pressure is taken off, they have so much potential to jump.
41:09My favorite protest was the men going around wearing headscarves to protest their mandatory wearing.
41:14I thought that was the best thing ever.
41:16It's been the whole system on its head.
41:19No, I don't mean to be disrespectful because you're wearing a headscarve.
41:21That protest was, I thought, quite clever.
41:25Yeah.
41:26You know, sort of thing.
41:27That was excellent.
41:28That was excellent.
41:30But, yeah.
41:31I'm sorry, go ahead.
41:32Sorry.
41:32Just the 10-point point really quick.
41:34One of the other points is, like, freedom of speech, freedom of political parties, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press and the internet, what we lack today.
41:43You know, commitment to individual and social freedoms and rights in importance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
41:51As I said, separation of church, religion and state and freedom of all religions and faiths.
41:57And those who might not have a faith, you know, to respect their rights.
42:03Complete gender equality, as I mentioned, in all the realms, be it political, social, cultural, economic, an independent judiciary and legal system.
42:13Recognizing the autonomy for and the removal of all the double injustices against Iranian nationalities and ethnicities.
42:26And justice and equal opportunities in the realm of employment and entrepreneurship for all people that we run in a free market society.
42:37Protection and rehabilitation of the environment and a non-nuclear Iran, which I think all of them are really important and are key.
42:48But these are like some of the main points that are in the 10-point plan.
42:54So it's one thing to say we just want to overthrow the regime.
42:58But it's another that the Iranian people know that that exists, that structure exists, this organized resistance exists.
43:07And there are people who have dedicated decades of their lives to freedom in Iran.
43:12You know, I think that one of the most important things that this resistance has done is regain people's trust with the price that they've paid themselves.
43:23Like, for instance, I know people who were maybe in their late teens, early 20s when they joined this resistance.
43:31And they have for the last 47 years, they've been fighting this regime without one day of attending to other issues.
43:41So they've dedicated their lives to the cause for freedom.
43:44And that kind of dedication shows that, you know, if they were after power, if they were after money, if they were after anything else except the freedom of the Iranian people, they would not be standing in this resistance today.
43:56And I think that is what gives people hope on the streets.
44:02And that is what helps them continue on.
44:07And the fact that I think a lot of us, we are from the generations that have paid the price for freedom in Iran.
44:16For instance, myself, as I said, I've never been to Iran, unfortunately, but my father was killed by the regime when I was seven.
44:22In 1988, that summer, the Iranian regime had 30,000 people executed.
44:28And but I always considered myself to be one of the lucky ones, despite that, because I knew so many others who had it so much worse than we did.
44:37I knew people who have had 14 members of their family executed.
44:41I've known people who had to witness.
44:44I had a friend who at the age of five, she was forced to watch her father be tortured.
44:49And unfortunately, her father ended up dying under torture.
44:53And so to that to this day, that lives on in her in her memories, even though she had tried to block it out.
45:01But, you know, she still had nightmares about it.
45:05And so these are the realities that the people of Iran have had to deal with.
45:08And so it has come at a very grave price, but we all understand that this is the price that we have to pay to finally be able to see freedom and democracy flourish in Iran.
45:21And we hope that that that day will be soon, unfortunately.
45:24Right before joining your podcast, a friend of mine who lives in Austria just got the news that one of his friends, like school childhood friends, was killed in the demonstrations.
45:39And these are this is what our people are dealing with on day to day basis today.
45:46Last week, we saw a woman who her 17 year old son and 20 year old son both were killed in one day.
45:54But still that family stood steadfast.
45:56And they said, we're going to continue in the protests and we're going to continue because that's what our children wanted.
46:01They wanted to see.
46:04Iran to be free.
46:05And a lot of the people who are going to the streets every day, every night when they go, they say their final farewells with their family because they know the risk of going, taking to the streets.
46:16But they know that this is the price that we have to pay collectively.
46:21So I think that kind of dedication and that kind of sacrifice is what's going to create that final change in Iran.
46:29And we hope to be able to invite you to a free Iran very soon.
46:32Yes, I that's the part I'm looking forward to the most is, yeah, walking off a plane and hopefully immediately into air conditioning, unless it's winter in Iran and being able to see and experience everything.
46:52And, yeah, it's it's we're getting towards the end of the show and I'm going to give my voice a break because I have another live show at four o'clock.
46:59But I'm going to ask you for your socials and all that sort of thing in a minute.
47:06But, yeah, let's just keep our fingers crossed that perhaps the next time we speak, it'll be over some lovely espresso in a quiet cafe in a lovely neighborhood in some place great in your family's country, in your country.
47:21So maybe a Persian tea.
47:23Yes, absolutely.
47:24Absolutely.
47:25Absolutely.
47:26So, well, this is the part of the show where we do plugs.
47:28So let us know where we can find you online and keep up with your work.
47:34Well, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, my ex and Instagram handle is Ashrafi Forever.
47:44So that's A-S-H-R-A-F-I, the number four ever.
47:51And on LinkedIn under my own name, Zola Al-Habibi.
47:55You can learn more about the Iranian resistance and what it stands for in Mariam Rajavi on Mariam Rajavi4Change.com.
48:04Also, the NCRI, it's ncr-iran.org.
48:11And you could follow them also on their socials for the latest updates on the uprisings.
48:18And there's also a account on X.
48:22It's English.
48:24Sorry.
48:25No, it's Mojahedin, M-O-J-A-H-E-D-I-N-E-N-G, which has the latest reports from Iran.
48:36But on Instagram, you could also visit like Iran Uprisings with a S at the end.
48:41They have updates daily, like 20, 30 times that you can follow the latest on the protest in Iran.
48:51Wonderful.
48:52Well, thank you, Zola, so much for coming on the Cameron Journal podcast.
48:59I'm going to end the live here, but don't leave the Zoom yet.
49:01I'm going to come talk to you.
49:02We'll chat a little bit afterwards.
49:03But I'm going to end the live here for everyone now.
49:06Thank you all so much for coming by.
49:08We had multiple likes, multiple hearts.
49:10We've had – this is more popular than the news hour.
49:13You've done very well for 2 o'clock on the afternoon on a Wednesday.
49:17This is more popular than the news hour on Monday nights.
49:19But thank you, everyone, so much for coming and seeing the special edition of the podcast.
49:24If you want to rewatch it, share it with your friends, give me a couple hours, and it will be reuploaded on YouTube.
49:29But thank you so much, Zola, for coming on the Cameron Journal podcast.
49:32Thank you very much for having me, and wish everyone a beautiful day.
49:37Thank you very much for having me, and I'll see you in the next one.
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