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00:00Hello and welcome to episode 3 of the Traitors Uncloaked, the Visualize Companion podcast with me, Ed Gamble.
00:07This is the show when we hear from all of the Banished and Murdered players first, so spoiler alert.
00:13Please make sure you've watched episode 3 of the Traitors before you watch this, you have been warned.
00:18Coming up on Uncloaked...
00:22Yep, they've got one already.
00:24Banished Traitor Hugo is here to talk about being caught out by his fellow players.
00:29Murdered Faithful Ben joins us to share his experience of the game.
00:32We have the exclusive moment when Ben came face-to-face with Hugo and found out who the Traitors are.
00:38Plus, the secret Traitor is about to be revealed.
00:41We'll be dissecting the mother of all cliffhangers with Celebrity Traitor Kat Burns and Series 3 Faithful Turn Traitor Charlotte.
00:53Welcome, Kat and Charlotte.
00:55Now, before we get into this, because we've got a lot to talk about,
00:58Charlotte, can I ask you about your socks?
01:00Yes.
01:01Look, they say Faithful and Traitor.
01:04Amazing.
01:05How good.
01:05I love it.
01:06I love them.
01:06I just think it's nice to have one foot representing each of my roles in the cast.
01:10And Kat, I like your Traitors.
01:16Now, as Traitors, you are used to being in control in the turret.
01:20That's obviously where you do all of your scheming.
01:22But how are Rachel and Stephen feeling in this moment as the secret Traitor is about to walk through the door?
01:27No, I'm really jealous because I basically want to go back and be your secret Traitor.
01:31I'm really jealous.
01:32That red cloak.
01:34Unbelievable.
01:34Yeah, it's pretty swish.
01:37Yeah.
01:38As my dad would say.
01:41I don't know.
01:43If that was me, I would have just surrendered to the fact that I don't know who it is.
01:46Yeah.
01:46And then each day we get a shortlist, I would just write down or mentally note down who the shortlist people are.
01:52And then if I live to see the day that I get really, really far in, I'd go, right, well, I could just whittle it down.
01:59It's probably one of these people.
02:01Yeah.
02:01That could be it.
02:02Like, I wouldn't be stressed going, I need to find out, like, who the secret Traitor is.
02:06Because I just, I think that's what Rachel's doing too much.
02:08She's not playing, remembering that people might be thinking who, like, who's a Tracer.
02:13Because no one else is thinking there's a secret Traitor.
02:16Because no one else knows there's a secret Traitor.
02:17She's, like, watching everybody.
02:18And I'm like, no, just wait, just chill out.
02:20There's no point.
02:21She's got enough going on.
02:22Yeah, exactly.
02:23She doesn't need to worry about who the secret Traitor is as well.
02:25Yeah.
02:25We're going to go on a deep dive with all the theories.
02:27Okay.
02:28I do want to know, though, how did we rate Rachel's attempt to get Stephen to the family tree to do the shortlist selection?
02:36What, like needing to learn some Latin or something?
02:37Yeah, you speak Latin, don't you?
02:39Yeah, I mean.
02:40And Rhys was like, I'll come.
02:41And she was like, oh, man, get away, no.
02:44In fact, Rhys left straight away, just left them in the kitchen.
02:47I know, and then Rhys was like, oh, I don't want to go alone.
02:48Oh, I don't want to go by myself.
02:49Come on, guys.
02:50And she was like, oh.
02:50See, I thought that was quite good, that it was a good excuse to get him to the family tree.
02:55But the bit that really set my teeth on edge a little bit is when she sort of got rid of Rhys to keep her and Stephen alone.
03:02Yeah, I don't think she should have done that.
03:03And then I didn't Stephen clock it.
03:05He was like, well, now Rhys will literally know.
03:08If they spot.
03:08If it comes down, if it's revealed that the death was done by the family tree.
03:13Let's remind ourselves of that moment when Rachel tries to shake off Rhys.
03:17Such a connection here.
03:20There's a big connection here.
03:22Like, that's very, very dangerous.
03:24Yeah.
03:25Speaking of dangerous.
03:27I've honestly...
03:28I need to give you a heads up on something.
03:31I can go if you want me to go.
03:32I don't mind going.
03:33Will you give me, I want to just...
03:35Of course, of course.
03:35Sorry, sorry.
03:36No, don't be daft, don't be daft.
03:38Oh my God.
03:38See, what's interesting about that is she doesn't say, can you go to Rhys?
03:42He does offer that.
03:44But I still think he'll remember that they were by the family tree together.
03:47If indeed someone spots on the family tree that there's those marks on there.
03:52I think it was bad wording.
03:54Either she should have just waited it out until Rhys left and got bored of looking at the family tree.
03:59We should say as well, we know Rhys is a faithful at this point because he's been on a murder shortlist previously.
04:05So how do we think they did, Kat, in terms of selecting the people on the portrait?
04:10Do you think they took too long?
04:11I don't think she really thought about it because I guess statistically the secret traitor would have picked one of those nine anyway.
04:18I would have just put my finger on the painting and just done a line.
04:22Yeah, just smeared it across and just tried to cover the bases.
04:25And then signed Ross kiss.
04:28I think Rachel is very thoughtful.
04:30She does seem quite a good traitor.
04:32So thinking if I put my finger in the red paint pot, I'm holding a red glass.
04:37Yeah.
04:37So no one would be able to see that.
04:38And then she goes and washes the glass and washes her finger at the same time.
04:41It is like watching a sort of murder plot happen.
04:43It's just down the drain.
04:44Yeah.
04:45Yeah, it's very Agatha Christie, the whole thing.
04:47It is.
04:48What do we make of this pact that Rachel and Stephen made?
04:50Oh my God, the hug.
04:51The extended hug.
04:52Like, I'm never going to vote for you.
04:53I'm never going to vote for you.
04:55Yeah, too much.
04:56Like, I mean, I can't wait for that to be shown in a flashback moment in like two episodes time.
05:03I mean, it's really early on in the game.
05:05I think I don't think you should be doing that.
05:07I think Stephen especially has shown that if enough heat is on someone, he will dash them.
05:12So I, if I was Stephen, I would have been like, of course, I'm not voting your name.
05:17Yeah.
05:18And just cross my fingers behind my back.
05:21Because I would have to vote for her if, like, you have to.
05:26So I think that was, you know, that was sweet that they did that.
05:29But I don't think that.
05:30I don't think either of them believed it.
05:32No, I agree.
05:32I don't think there was any sincerity from either side.
05:35I think it is so early on.
05:37And now we're going to meet another secret traitor.
05:39I mean, I honestly, I feel like this with the way Hugo's gone so soon and then the secret traitor, I could see the traitors at the end being brand new traitors.
05:49Let's talk more about the secret traitor.
05:51I want secret traitor guesses from both of you.
05:54So we know who it isn't because of the murder shortlists.
05:57Yeah.
05:58Rhys, Maz and James are the ones who are left in the game who we know are faithful.
06:02And obviously, Nettie, Judy, Ben and Hugo are all gone.
06:06Kat, who do you think it is and why?
06:08At first, I thought it was Jade.
06:11Maybe because I just think she's a queen and that she's really fab and that she'd be great at it.
06:16I also did think it was Ellie because she's a psychologist.
06:24Yeah.
06:24And I just thought that would be amazing for a psychologist to be puppeteering everyone and like using her degree.
06:30Fiona as well, because she keeps saying things that might allude to the fact that she could be one.
06:36Can it be Ross?
06:37It could be Ross.
06:38Oh, it could be Ross.
06:39Should I go really left?
06:40No, Ross is in an absolute tickle.
06:41He's sweet.
06:42He can't get his words out.
06:43He's just panicked all the time.
06:44Can we briefly understand this Ross-Nettie situation of like...
06:48He didn't articulate himself in the best way when probed about it.
06:52And I think because everyone's just looking at people with a suspicious lens and because he didn't word things the way they wanted him to word things, which is, I think, just what the game is.
07:04You act differently to me.
07:05Totally.
07:05And I think that way is weird.
07:07Therefore, I'm voting for you.
07:08Therefore, you're suspicious.
07:08Yeah.
07:08So I think for him, he just was like, oh, you know, my plan was just to act like I didn't know her.
07:12And then people are like, your plan?
07:13What do you mean your plan?
07:15What if he is the secret traitor?
07:16I think that would be great if he was.
07:18Kat, obviously, this is a great opportunity to play the game at home.
07:21And this would be your first time playing as a faithful.
07:24How does that feel?
07:26I don't like it.
07:29You want control.
07:30It's not fun.
07:31I don't enjoy it.
07:32No, it's fun.
07:33I think it's actually, it's fun to not know.
07:35And it's fun to be with the rest of the world and be confused as well.
07:39It's fun to not know who a traitor is without the worry of being murdered.
07:43Exactly.
07:43OK, now, traitor Hugo and faithful Ben are about to join the conversation.
07:50But first, it's time to find out what happened when they came face to face
07:53immediately after leaving the game.
07:59Ben!
08:01How are you?
08:02Yeah, good, mate.
08:03Oh, good to see you, mate.
08:04I'm here.
08:08What I want to know is what happened at breakfast?
08:11Well, we twigged it was you.
08:12And obviously, we did take a moment to say what an excellent, you know,
08:17competitor and player you'd been.
08:19Right, OK.
08:19And how sorely you'd be missed.
08:20So that was definitely the feeling in breakfast.
08:22They were very sad that you weren't there.
08:23Right.
08:24I actually think there's five traitors.
08:26That's what I've written down.
08:28Right.
08:28I've got three little other suspects, but they're my five traitors.
08:31My five traitors are Maz.
08:34Yeah.
08:35Amanda.
08:36Yeah.
08:36Ross.
08:38Yeah.
08:39Sam.
08:40Got it.
08:40And you.
08:41Why me?
08:42So you're a barrister.
08:43True.
08:44Right?
08:45We're sitting at the round table, and I'm looking at you.
08:48Now, you're perfect today.
08:50This was you at the round table.
08:51Ah.
08:55As if you couldn't care about anything that was going on.
08:58I was waiting for people to ask questions.
09:01Not once did you cross-examine anybody at the round table.
09:06Right?
09:07And I thought, what is going on here?
09:09Right?
09:10So now I want to know, what were you, a traitor or a faithful?
09:17You are a very canny man.
09:21What are you telling me?
09:22You're a traitor.
09:23A devil.
09:25You're a traitor.
09:27Yes!
09:28Get in there!
09:29Congrats.
09:30Get in there!
09:30And it's because you were on to me, we thought you would never be banished, because you were
09:35never a traitor.
09:37Everyone could see you were faithful, Ben, and that's just a massive compliment to you.
09:41You wore your heart on your sleeve.
09:42You were walking around trying to find the traitors every day.
09:45Yeah.
09:46So I hope you take it as a compliment.
09:48No, I do.
09:48That you had to be murdered, because you would never be banished.
09:51Yeah.
09:52So, Ben, I bet you want to know who the others were.
09:53Yes, I do.
09:54So, if you reach to your left, sir, have a look.
09:59It's in there, the secrets of who the other traitors were.
10:03Oh, this is exciting.
10:05What's it say?
10:06Read it.
10:08Hugo.
10:09Oh, you knew that.
10:09Rachel!
10:18Bloody hell.
10:19Now, why are you so surprised?
10:20Oh, she never changed her demeanour at all.
10:23That has really surprised me.
10:24Now, she is canny and under the radar.
10:26When I saw her in the turret...
10:27Gee.
10:28...I had the same reaction as you just did, Ben.
10:31I thought, no way!
10:32Jesus.
10:33You're so under the radar.
10:35Okay, go on.
10:36And...
10:41Stephen!
10:42Stephen!
10:43Only three.
10:45Well, Ross.
10:46What the hell was Ross doing?
10:48Ross is digging in myself a hole so deep he could play in Traitors Australia.
10:53I mean, that man is entirely innocent, and yet has covered himself in guilt, suspicion.
11:01That's why I thought he was a traitor.
11:02Yeah.
11:05And traitor Hugo and faithful Ben are with us now!
11:08Hey!
11:09Thanks for having us.
11:10Welcome.
11:11I have to mention the outfits to start with, guys.
11:13You both look fantastic.
11:15Hugo with the crimson velvet tuxedo.
11:19The lining as well.
11:20Oh, a space-based lining.
11:22And Ben, of course, with the blue...
11:25Midnight blue.
11:26Midnight blue, thank you.
11:27Midnight blue velvet tuxedo.
11:29You look fantastic.
11:30And sometimes it's awkward when you turn up and you're wearing the same thing,
11:32but I think it's really worked for you guys.
11:34Oh, thank you.
11:35Thanks.
11:36Hugo, you're a real Welshman, of course.
11:38Yes.
11:39How does it feel to come face-to-face with Charlotte, the fake Welsh person?
11:42Wow.
11:43Lost me far.
11:45Shemay.
11:46Shemay, Charlotte.
11:47When they started saying that you were Welsh towards the end of your departure, I was like,
11:53what?
11:53You didn't sound Welsh at all.
11:55I don't know.
11:55Maybe it's just, it comes and goes.
11:58What did you make of Charlotte's accent on the show?
12:00It was good.
12:00Yeah, it was good.
12:01Yeah.
12:01Because it was low-key.
12:02It wasn't, you know, sing-songy, beautiful Queen Fiona.
12:05You know what?
12:05It had to be.
12:06Because although Fiona was everything I ever wanted to channel, which is like absolutely
12:10amazing, mother of dragons, that kind of thing.
12:14Yeah.
12:14It takes so much energy.
12:16Yeah.
12:16Oh, Charlotte.
12:17It's like, church was in the room.
12:19Massively pared back.
12:21Kat, what did you make of Hugo as a traitor?
12:24How do you rate his efforts?
12:25Do you know what?
12:26I think you did a really good job.
12:31Now, can you say that once more without laughing?
12:33No, no, no.
12:35I think the speech was, I think it was when you were like, whoever did this should not
12:44be happy with themselves.
12:45Can we just have a moment?
12:47Because Ben, I was next to him yesterday and I was sweating a bit, but that senior gentleman
12:52was giving absolutely everything.
12:54Yeah, yeah, for the mission he was.
12:55That was a tough mission, that hill two-thirds of the way through.
12:58Whoever has done that is beyond mean.
13:04I think everyone went, ooh.
13:06Oh, yeah.
13:07I think it's you, sweet bee.
13:08To be fair, though, if you'd done that and been a faithful, it still would have been suspicious.
13:13Like Kaz, I did a Kaz.
13:14That is literally what I said.
13:16I think it's just drawing too much attention to yourself.
13:18You cannot draw attention to yourself.
13:19And because you are a traitor, it was like, nah.
13:22Definitely.
13:22You shot yourself in the food.
13:23Big stale, didn't you?
13:24Yeah.
13:25But I was giving you a send-off.
13:27Yeah, mate.
13:27You don't need to be so...
13:28It's a funny way.
13:29Sure, isn't it?
13:30I think it would have been better if you had done it in a smaller group.
13:33When you were just eating or whatever, you could have just been like, oh, do you know what?
13:36Yeah.
13:37Instead of being like, oh!
13:40You commanded the attention of the room, which I think is always a mistake.
13:44Always.
13:44Yeah.
13:44But halfway through, I thought you've got away with this because you said, didn't Ben do well in the mission and all of that sort of thing?
13:50And people agreed with you.
13:51They went, yeah, he did really well.
13:53And then when you slipped into the second half and went, it's beyond mean.
13:56And you just see, you see a shot of Rachel just going, oh, my God.
14:01I know.
14:03Ben, we saw that incredible moment in that clip there where you accuse Hugo of being a traitor before he's revealed it.
14:10Yes.
14:10Literally pointing the finger at him.
14:11Yes.
14:12You're a traitor.
14:13Yes.
14:13How did that make you feel when you found out you were right?
14:15Brilliant.
14:16I got him in a winner and I knew it was him.
14:18He was at their own table and every time I looked at him, he was like this.
14:23I was off duty.
14:24And I thought, what is he playing at?
14:25I was off the clock.
14:26I'm a lawyer, right?
14:27The clock wasn't ready.
14:27And then he was gobbling off left, right and centre to everybody.
14:30Interesting.
14:31And I thought, what are you doing, mate?
14:32I know.
14:33You're definitely a traitor.
14:35Now, obviously, Ben, that was a great accusation of Hugo that we've just seen.
14:39But Hugo, how did that compare to being absolutely railroaded and intensely questioned by Harriet at the round table?
14:46I was chopped off at the ankles.
14:48I was defeated.
14:48Yeah.
14:49I mean, you know, yeah, it was like a machine gun opening up and there was just no way back to it.
14:54And fair play to her.
14:56I don't know if she's fallen out with another barrister in the past, perhaps.
14:59May have been the motivation, but the delivery of it, it was like a missile.
15:03But she's hiding that.
15:04So hats off to her or wigs off to her, as we'd say.
15:06Well, let's remind ourselves of that.
15:07Oh, please, let's.
15:08Oh, yes.
15:09It has occurred to me from the moment that I found out that you were a barrister, that you would be a prime target for the traitors to take out.
15:21You have experience at cross-examination.
15:23You're good at presenting your case and you're highly articulate.
15:26So I had in my mind, as I came into breakfast this morning, if you had survived, that really raised big questions in my mind.
15:38A number of people also said that they were intimidated by your professional position to take you on.
15:47They are hard facts as far as I'm concerned.
15:49That was intense pressure. That must have felt really intense in there.
15:54Yeah, at that point, really.
15:56Yeah, there's not really much you could do about thinking about the exit and how you're going to get out of it.
16:01I mean, look, that logic, you cannot deny.
16:04As she said, you're either a traitor or the traitors are going to think, well, this guy eventually is going to do something useful.
16:10So why didn't they get rid of me?
16:12So I had a strategy, which obviously didn't work.
16:15Well, first of all, enjoy the short time you've got there.
16:17Try and do a couple of, you know, mess around a bit.
16:20And second, be chaotic, not slick, because people think a lawyer is going to be really professional and down the line.
16:26That didn't buy me much time.
16:28And then, and this was just such a moonshot, if I could find a traitor.
16:33I may be one of the only traitors ever on this fantastic show.
16:37A traitor genuinely looking for a traitor, the secret traitor.
16:40Because as you guys know, when you are a traitor, you have to act like a faithful.
16:44So that was a really good headspace to be in, was like looking for one.
16:49Did you have an inkling in that moment with Harriet that you were going toe-to-toe with a fellow barrister or ex-barrister as Harriet?
16:56100%.
16:56I thought that she was, yeah, a very senior, respected lawyer who we just hadn't crossed paths.
17:03Or even worse, perhaps she'd sent me a brief and I'd, you know, been against her.
17:06But there was something there that was not on display.
17:10Just in that moment when she said that.
17:11That was motivating her.
17:12But then, as I say, the execution of it was just...
17:15Outstanding.
17:15Yeah, and she was telling the truth.
17:18But she's kept it a secret, her profession.
17:20Yeah.
17:20Did you consider hiding yours?
17:22I did, I did.
17:23But I thought, again, go in there and don't treat it like a court, treat it like a stage.
17:28And I was kind of trying to channel Phantom of the Opera meets, you know, some sort of slapstick.
17:33Sorry, mate.
17:34Is that right?
17:35There was a wonderful moment in that exchange as well, where you are trying to dig your way
17:40out of this hole as Harriet's speaking and you say, well, yeah, a lot of people have
17:43mentioned that I've not been cross-examining anyone at the round table.
17:46And Harriet goes, yeah, I hadn't even considered that.
17:48But yeah, that's also part of my argument against you.
17:51Yeah, well, I'll have that.
17:52Yeah, thanks, mate.
17:55Taxi!
17:56Now, obviously, Stephen voted for you at this round table, turned on you very early.
18:00Did you expect that to happen so early in the game?
18:02Look, trade is going to trade, trade, trade, trade, trade.
18:05You've got to just shake it off, shake it off.
18:07The names for traitors, we're all traitors.
18:10Yeah.
18:11Of course.
18:12But he didn't have to.
18:13You know, it's so early on, he could have voted for someone else and it wouldn't be,
18:16I don't think, suspicious to have voted for anyone else.
18:19Yeah.
18:19I think he saw the way it was going.
18:20Yeah, but I think he was panicking.
18:21I think Stephen was actually panicking and he thought to himself, I'm going to join the
18:25Klan and I'm going to vote.
18:26Oh, yeah.
18:26That's a good point.
18:27Because he was under pressure because of the room.
18:28Because he was under pressure.
18:29Because he was in the room.
18:29Right, so he thought to himself, right, I'm going to vote for you.
18:32Yeah.
18:32Then it takes a bit of pressure off me.
18:34Yeah.
18:34And that's what I think he did.
18:36Yeah, I've got no problem with it.
18:37I mean, the best dressed traitor.
18:39I mean, he was...
18:39Oh, yeah.
18:40And his lovely sort of soft voice.
18:42And then he's the brutal killer.
18:44It's just great.
18:45So, obviously, there was a lot of chat about keeping your behaviour consistent after the
18:50trade selection.
18:50I think we are sat with the absolute queen of staying consistent after the trade selection.
18:56Kat, what do you think Hugo could have done to maybe stay under the radar as you did?
19:01I think jobs play a really big part in the game.
19:05Because I'm a singer and I make vulnerable songs, it's easier for me to...
19:09My disposition to just be naturally calm and quiet.
19:13Because it's hard when you're a traitor, when you know someone is a faithful, to go for them
19:17and say, I think you're a faithful because of X, Y, and Z, and know that they're going
19:20to come back and go, well, I'm not because of X, Y, and Z, and you know that they're
19:23not.
19:24So, it's easier.
19:25That's why most traitors will sit back because they're like, I know none of these people
19:28are, so I'm just going to...
19:29So, because your job, people would expect you to speak up and say something because
19:34you didn't, that backfired.
19:35So, I think if I was you, I probably would have tried my hardest to go for people a bit
19:40more or say theories a bit more so that people think that you're actively trying
19:46to be in the game and find a traitor.
19:48Ben, I do want to ask you this.
19:49You mentioned that Hugo was one of your five names, as we know.
19:54Well, he was number one.
19:55Is he who you would have gone for at the next round table?
19:58Yes.
19:58Would you have voted for...
19:59Yes, 100%.
20:00Yeah.
20:00Really?
20:00I did, yeah, 100%.
20:02Judy, I changed my mind with Judy, right?
20:06I was actually going to go for Ross, right?
20:09Surprisingly.
20:10But the consensus, the opinion round the table, I just followed everybody else because
20:14everything that was coming out, I thought, maybe I'm wrong here and it is Judy.
20:18But then it was him.
20:19He was next.
20:20In fact, if I had two votes, I'd have voted him twice.
20:23Well, it's nothing personal, mate.
20:25I would have killed you twice.
20:32Hugo, after you left, after you were banished, we saw Rachel being quite delighted that you'd
20:38been banished.
20:39She maybe said it on two or three occasions, going, I'm absolutely...
20:41Using the word delighted, I'm absolutely delighted that Hugo's gone.
20:44How does that feel?
20:45Well, I took the opposite meaning.
20:48Okay.
20:50No.
20:51And those two, because of the way they're playing it under the radar, I think they're
20:55very, very well matched, very good team.
20:57Actually, the three of us, we got on in the turret.
21:00We never really disagreed.
21:02Well, we didn't have much choice.
21:03You thought you got on.
21:04Yeah.
21:05Yeah, fair enough.
21:06Behind closed doors.
21:06Well, it's the traitors, right?
21:08It is the traitors.
21:08Because I think quite quickly, Rachel was saying, Hugo will throw me under the bus at
21:14the first given opportunity.
21:15Rachel didn't trust you straight away.
21:17I messed that up, because I said I'd throw the secret traitor under the bus when they
21:21came into the thing.
21:22And Rachel picked me up and said, well, you're going to do the same to us.
21:24So, you know, day one, lesson one of diplomacy school.
21:27Yeah.
21:27Don't, you know.
21:29Yeah.
21:29Because you can't trust anyone.
21:31Like, even if you're team traitor or team faithful, you are really just team you.
21:34Yeah.
21:35Like, you can only really look out for yourself.
21:37I think so.
21:37Ben, I want to talk about your murder a little bit now.
21:40Oh, dear.
21:41What was it like to walk in and see the dreaded envelope on the chair?
21:45Oh, what a nightmare that was, wasn't it?
21:47That was...
21:48But there again, I've got to say, I've won by being on that show, right?
21:53Whether I was murdered or not, to be on the show, I've won already.
21:56Yeah.
21:57So, to see the envelope, I knew it was part of the game, but I was absolutely gutted.
22:02And I knew it was him.
22:03I knew, hands down, it was him.
22:06I don't even know why I'm sitting here.
22:07Oh, mate, come on, come on.
22:09It's because I know your point.
22:10And I was absolutely gutted, but I was thrilled to do the game.
22:14And I think I said that on my exit.
22:16Yeah.
22:16Yeah.
22:17But to be fair, we wouldn't have chosen that shortlist.
22:20And we did have a choice of three.
22:23So, and there were four of us, we know now, that put you in the frame.
22:27So, there were two others that you could have picked rather than me.
22:29Yeah.
22:30Or I'm a quarter guilty.
22:33But you were an amazing detective, and that's why I was happy to vote for you.
22:37Because when you asked me sort of four or five questions on the bounce, I thought,
22:40I cannot get anything past this one.
22:42Yeah.
22:43Seriously.
22:43So, you were an amazing sort of detective, investigator character, I think,
22:47picking up on every little thing that was said and done.
22:50And you were so nice, you know, we had to get rid of you because you never would have been banished, mate.
22:53Yeah, I know you said that.
22:54That was really kind of you.
22:55That's true.
22:56Do you think this is truthful, or do you think he's dressing it all up as a compliment?
22:58No, I think that bit's truthful, because he actually said that to me.
23:02He says, I don't think you were ever going to get banished.
23:04And I think that came across when they were all speaking at breakfast anyway.
23:08Yeah, I think so.
23:08I really appreciated that.
23:10Yeah.
23:10That's the only thing I'll take as positive.
23:13Oh, well.
23:15Charlotte, would you have chosen to murder Ben on that shortlist?
23:18Because the rest of the shortlist was Rhys and Maz.
23:20It was Maz's second time, wasn't it?
23:22On the list of three.
23:23So to be honest, I'd probably just be like, yeah, okay, two strikes.
23:27Yeah, but we didn't know in the turret what was the secret traitor thinking to put Maz on twice.
23:33In a way, it protects the secret traitor, because if you keep repetition on the list,
23:38you're not, every time they put a new name on the list, you know they're not the secret traitor.
23:43Yeah, true.
23:43So by repeating it.
23:45It's like three dimensions.
23:46No, I know.
23:47I mean, frankly, we were saying they should have repeated both two.
23:50Yeah.
23:50And then, you know, just changed one.
23:52So I think that's sensible from them.
23:55I would have got rid of Rhys.
23:56Yeah?
23:56I would have kept you in, Ben.
23:58Yeah.
23:59Oh, you're so lovely.
24:01There we are.
24:01But it was the choice to murder...
24:05I love you, Kat.
24:06Yeah, I love you too.
24:07I think they went for you, and I may be wrong, Hugo, as well,
24:11because you were the most liked or the one that everyone thought,
24:15why would you ever kill Ben?
24:16And it causes the most chaos.
24:18Yeah.
24:18That's right.
24:19An earthquake under the castle, all that kind of thing.
24:21And it did.
24:22It did.
24:22Because it has people looking in every direction,
24:24and then they're all snapping at each other.
24:25Yeah, I totally agree with that, because if I'd have been a traitor,
24:29I'd have done the same.
24:30Yeah.
24:30Absolutely.
24:30And I looked at, well, the person that was...
24:34I'm not saying I was popular,
24:35but the person that was kind of under the radar,
24:38that was quite nice, I'd have been to him.
24:40Yeah.
24:40Without a doubt.
24:42Okay, Ben and Hugo,
24:43I have to get both of your thoughts on the twist of the century,
24:46which is, of course, the secret traitor,
24:47which you were party to.
24:49At the moment, we find out about the secret traitor, Hugo.
24:52But Ben, you're obviously just finding out about it
24:54as you watch the show go out.
24:56Watch the show, yeah.
24:56Yeah.
24:57We know that Maz is a faithful,
24:59but can I get your reasons as to why you suspect
25:02the other players that you put on your list, please?
25:05Because obviously one of them could be the secret traitor.
25:08You've got Amanda, who you suspected.
25:10Yeah.
25:11Why do you think she might be a traitor?
25:12Amanda, Amanda to me, was very...
25:15She was very inquisitive.
25:16She was like...
25:17Like a lawyer, I suppose, or a barrister or detective
25:22or something like that.
25:23She was questioning everything that was going on
25:25and I thought, right, okay, why is she doing that?
25:27And she was having a go at you quite a lot, wasn't she?
25:30Right?
25:31She's not all Ben.
25:32And I thought, right, okay,
25:33I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here,
25:35but I've still got this 10% about you
25:37that I'm not fully covered with.
25:39Yeah.
25:40So that was kind of her.
25:41Such an amazing moment at breakfast as well
25:43when they all start talking about how funny it would be
25:45if there was a secret detective in there.
25:47Yeah.
25:48And she just has to sit there like...
25:50Yeah.
25:52You also suspected Ross.
25:53We know that there was a lot of suspicions around Ross.
25:55Oh, Ross was really...
25:56Oh, Ross.
25:57Is that mainly because of the Nettie situation
25:59and how he reacted to it?
26:00Yeah, it was a Nettie situation
26:02and then if you watch it back when Judy goes, right,
26:05now everybody goes, oh, like that.
26:08Ross is, whoa!
26:10Oh, right, if you watch his reaction
26:12and I thought, that's a bit over the top.
26:13So that's why I was heading down his route.
26:16Well, I think we can agree
26:17that the secret traitor twist is gigantic.
26:20It's one of the biggest twists that's ever been on the show.
26:22Yeah.
26:22Hugo, you referred to it as feeling like middle management.
26:25Yes.
26:26When Claudia told you what was happening.
26:28How did you feel that moment
26:30when Claudia let you know
26:32that someone else would be feeding you the shortlist every night?
26:34I wanted a direct report to my queen of darkness.
26:38It was really annoying.
26:40Because I wanted to kill Fiona, for example,
26:42because I couldn't lie to her
26:43because she was just lying to my mum or my bigger sister
26:46and I just couldn't lie to her.
26:48So I wanted her gone.
26:49And just not to have the freedom at all
26:51to be dictated to by someone else.
26:53And we couldn't even figure out
26:54if the secret traitor was trying to help us
26:57or just look after themselves.
26:58We really were all at sea.
26:59I think they're probably just trying to look after themselves.
27:01I think that makes sense.
27:02As a lover of the game, it's genius.
27:04It is now three-dimensional traitors, isn't it?
27:06But yeah, in the moment, it was annoying.
27:09And the red cloak.
27:10Like, I'm sorry, but I never thought
27:12the green cloak would look inferior.
27:14Yeah.
27:14Oh, thanks.
27:15I want to wear that red cloak.
27:17Yeah.
27:17We now know that the secret traitor
27:19is going to rejoin the traitors in the turret.
27:21Yeah.
27:21But you had no idea
27:22what was going to happen in the future,
27:24whether you would ever know
27:25who the secret traitor is.
27:26Right.
27:26You don't know how it's going to play out.
27:27You don't know whether that hierarchy
27:29that you talk about
27:29is going to be there sort of constantly.
27:31Yeah.
27:31Yeah.
27:32So it was completely baffling.
27:34Hugo, what's it like watching Rachel and Stephen
27:36navigate the game now you're gone?
27:38Are you going to be rooting for them
27:39or will you be delighted if there's a downfall?
27:42No, I wish them all the best.
27:43I think they were playing it absolutely properly.
27:46And they're both very canny, smart people
27:48and they're both lovely people.
27:50And yeah, we were all traitors together
27:52and I would have taken the first opportunity
27:53to knife them in the front.
27:55With alacrity.
27:57Yeah.
27:57Now we're out of time for part one,
28:00but we'll keep chatting over on BBC Sounds.
28:02I'm going to ask Hugo
28:03who he would have murdered next
28:04and we'll find out if Ben told Claudia
28:07he wanted to be a tracer or a faithful.
28:09Plus there'll be more from Charlotte and Kat.
28:11It's all in your bonus episode of Uncloaked,
28:13which you can hear right now.
28:15Just scan the QR code on the screen
28:17and listen as you get ready for bed.
28:19I'm back on Wednesday night
28:20straight after episode four
28:21with all the reactions
28:22to that secret traitor reveal.
28:24It's a huge moment.
28:25Who's it going to be?
28:26Big thanks to Kat, Charlotte, Hugo and Ben
28:29and to you at home for watching.
28:30I'm Ed Gamble.
28:32Stay faithful.
28:32Woo!
28:34Woo!
28:56I'm Ed Gamble.
29:04I'm Ed Gamble.
29:04I'm Ed Gamble.
29:04I'm Ed Gamble.
29:04I'm Ed Gamble.
29:05I'm Ed Gamble.
29:05I'm Ed Gamble.
29:06I'm Ed Gamble.
29:06I'm Ed Gamble.
29:06I'm Ed Gamble.
29:07I'm Ed Gamble.
29:07I'm Ed Gamble.
29:07I'm Ed Gamble.
29:08I'm Ed Gamble.
29:08I'm Ed Gamble.
29:09I'm Ed Gamble.
29:09I'm Ed Gamble.
29:10I'm Ed Gamble.
29:10I'm Ed Gamble.
29:11I'm Ed Gamble.
29:11I'm Ed Gamble.
29:12I'm Ed Gamble.
29:13I'm Ed Gamble.
29:13I'm Ed Gamble.
29:14I'm Ed Gamble.
29:14I'm Ed Gamble.
29:15I'm Ed Gamble.
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