- 1 week ago
The Supreme Court on Monday denied bail to student activists Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam in the 2020 Delhi riots conspiracy case, citing evidence of a criminal conspiracy.
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00:00All right, so before I face off at 9pm, the big questions that we pose.
00:05Jail or not bail? The principle for a draconian law like UAPA.
00:09Prolonged trial means prolonged jail.
00:12That is what an understanding came of.
00:15The reading of the order today by the top court of the country and the bench.
00:19The other question that we pose, UAPA prone to misuse by the state.
00:24Criminal justice system flawed.
00:26Let's take all these questions to our panelists this evening.
00:29Joining me is Satyapal Jain, Additional Solicitor General of India, Colin Gonsalves, Senior Advocator.
00:35I'd like to begin with Mr. Satyapal Jain.
00:36Mr. Satyapal Jain, how do you, somewhere down the line, reconcile the principle of Article 21
00:41that stands for freedom and liberty with what the court said today?
00:46And to quote the order, over five years without incarceration,
00:51prolonged pre-trial distention should not equate to punishment.
00:54How do you reconcile both, especially at a time where trials move at glacial space,
01:01you know, delayed systematically, where charges haven't been framed yet?
01:08How do you reconcile that?
01:11To my mind, it's a very balanced judgment.
01:13It has taken into consideration all the facts and evidence of the case on file,
01:17as well as the law which is prevalent at the moment.
01:21You see, understand the principle of criminal law.
01:24Any person who is arrested by any agency, prosecuting agency,
01:28the moment he is produced before the court,
01:31then it is for the courts to decide whether to grant him bail or not to grant him bail.
01:34I am sorry to interrupt and I will allow you to continue
01:37because at least with what we have learned and you are way more learned than most of us
01:41because we have not a deeper understanding of the law.
01:43The principle and the tenet of criminal justice lies on the fact of presumption of innocence.
01:48Innocent until proven guilty.
01:49I am replying to your question.
01:50I am replying to your question.
01:52Basically, you know, this issue, whether he is entitled for bail or not,
01:56is not decided by the government, not decided by the prosecuting agency.
02:00After the rest within 24 hours, the accused is in the custody of the courts.
02:05So if you have to apply for bail, maybe a normal law, maybe a special law,
02:09maybe UPPA, maybe PMLA, whatever it is.
02:12In the present case, both these people, all the people applied for bail.
02:17The trial court dismissed their bail application.
02:19High court also dismissed their bail application.
02:21And today the Supreme Court, out of seven, has granted bail to five
02:26and has declined bail only to two.
02:28Why are we forgetting that the same bench, which according to some people,
02:33did not apply the principle of no bail, no jail, etc.,
02:37they have already granted bail to five.
02:39And when they have granted bail to five, declined bail to these two persons,
02:43the judgment, which is 142 pages judgment, has dealt with the whole issue in detail.
02:48The court has found that these are the persons who indicate a central and directive role.
02:55Mr. Jain, allow me to come in again.
02:57Allow me to come in again.
02:58Because you talk of granting bail to five and not granting bail to two.
03:03But the fact is, sir, that today one might say, and the court said,
03:07that these two are of different footing and their nature of participation in the crime was different.
03:11But for the last five years, they were pulled in with the seven,
03:15where they were denied bail together.
03:17They were put together as a part of a larger criminal conspiracy.
03:20And suddenly, you define their role differently this time.
03:24Madam, please, I will not like to comment on your comments as a lawyer,
03:28otherwise I can say many things.
03:29See, when the charge sheet is filed, there are hundreds accused in certain cases, 50, 20, 10.
03:36Now, the role of each and every is different.
03:38Ultimately, it is the court which examines what is the role of each and every person.
03:42For example, you murder a man, somebody fired at it, another helped him, another got something.
03:47The role of each and every person in any criminal case is different.
03:51And ultimately, when the screening takes place,
03:53it is the highest court of the country which has examined the entire evidence
03:57and has come to the conclusion that other five may be given the benefit of the paper.
04:01So, with what you say, the hierarchy of participation, something which the court also used,
04:05you don't find it in conflict with Article 14, equality before law?
04:09No, no, no. Article 21 doesn't mean that everybody has to accept the law.
04:13Violation of Article 14, equality before law?
04:15If that be applied that principle, if Article 21 is applied in that name,
04:19then everybody will be released on bail whatever the offense.
04:22No, Article 21 is subject to the regulation by the laws of the land.
04:26Sir, I'm talking about Article 14, like I said, you're way more learned it.
04:29I'm talking about Article 14, equality before law.
04:32Article 14 is not available in criminal law.
04:33With what you quote, the hierarchy of participation.
04:35Let's be clear. Article 14 is not available in criminal law.
04:38It's a civil matter in the matter of services and all that.
04:42Criminal law doesn't recognize Article 14.
04:44Your role can be different.
04:46Two person committing events, one may be the major role, another may be the side role.
04:50The court decides accordingly.
04:52Let's be very clear about it.
04:53All right.
04:53I want to bring in…
04:54So far as the delay party is concerned,
04:57delay party is concerned, Supreme Court has found
05:00that delay is not attributable only to the prosecuting agency.
05:04Delay is attributable to them also.
05:06They have also been getting dates after dates.
05:08So it's not that delay is only…
05:10No, fair point.
05:10But, Mr. Satyapal Jain, the fact is that the key witnesses haven't even been questioned yet,
05:16that charges haven't been fixed yet.
05:19Do you not think that this is a blot on the judiciary,
05:21which will come back to allow me to bring in Colin Gonsalves,
05:23Senior Advocate, Supreme Court.
05:25Mr. Gonsalves, the court also said,
05:28and so did the prosecution reiterate the fact
05:31that a large part of how slow things have processed
05:35is because the accused constantly kept cancelling dates
05:40and the onus lies on the accused why the trial is so slow.
05:46Sir, you're on mute.
05:47You're still on mute, sir.
05:58No, not true at all.
06:02And let's not take that…
06:03let's not allow such an excuse to come on air again and again.
06:07The conduct of a trial lies in the hands of the judge.
06:12It lies in the hands of the public prosecutor.
06:16The accused here did not delay the trial,
06:18but even an accused who delays the trial
06:20can be treated very tough
06:24by the court and the public prosecutor
06:27and not a single day's delay can be allowed.
06:31You have control of the trial.
06:34Therefore, do your trial
06:35and look at the travesty of justice here.
06:39800 witnesses.
06:42Five years pass.
06:44Not one witness examined.
06:47Is it not deliberate inaction on behalf of the state?
06:52Passing time, passing time,
06:54wasting time, wasting time
06:55to see that ultimately,
06:59you know, he will pay, stay 10 years in jail
07:01and still his trial will be at some initial level.
07:05It reminds me of the emergency.
07:08Madam, it reminds me of the emergency.
07:11And it reminds me of the terror of the emergency,
07:14Indira Gandhi's emergency,
07:16where people were locked up and,
07:18you know, lost sight of.
07:21It reminds me of the emergency
07:23because no one had the courage.
07:25No court in the country had the courage to stand up to Indira Gandhi.
07:30God knows why, but they could not stand.
07:33These are shades of an emergency.
07:36And the people who are in jail today are like
07:39all those who were in jail in Indira Gandhi's time.
07:45They suffered in jail.
07:46They suffered in jail.
07:47Many of them in the opposition in government today.
07:51They suffered in jail.
07:53And when they came out,
07:54they were treated as if they were heroes
07:56by the Indian public.
07:58I know Khalid.
08:01I know these people.
08:02I've seen their work.
08:04Never thrown a bomb.
08:06Never done violent actions.
08:08Never fired a gun.
08:11Never, ever a single act of violence
08:14not alleged against them in the country.
08:17No violence alleged.
08:19Some speech that he gave.
08:21And he started the riots.
08:22Yes, I handled today
08:24the Delhi riots case in the high court.
08:28The case that I filed
08:30is for an FIR to be registered
08:33against those who started the Delhi riots.
08:36And you know who did it?
08:38Anurag Thakur, Parvish Farma, Kapal Mishra
08:40who stood on a stage and said
08:43and I gave the videos to the court
08:45Deshke Gadharo Ko, Golimaro Salu Ko.
08:49And after giving those very
08:52you know, insightful slogans
08:54walk through the streets of Delhi
08:57repeating the slogan.
08:58That is how the Delhi riots began.
09:01I've got it on media.
09:02I've filed it in the court.
09:04Supreme Court directed the high court
09:06to expedite this matter
09:08three times.
09:11Five years have passed.
09:13The high court has not even begun the matter.
09:16Reluctance to start a matter
09:18because their own leaders
09:20would be found out to be
09:21the persons who started the riot.
09:24Mr. Gonzalez
09:25The question I'd like to ask you is
09:28do you fault the draconian archaic law
09:31like the UAPA
09:32or do you think the reading of the law
09:34was flawed in this judgment today
09:37which denied bail to both Omar and Sharjee?
09:40See the law is archaic.
09:41Not archaic.
09:42The law is draconian.
09:43But I don't want to make that point.
09:47The implementation of the law
09:50by the government
09:51and the courts
09:53particularly in this case
09:56passing such an awful order
09:59against judgment
10:00after judgment
10:01of the Supreme Court
10:02in UAPA matters.
10:05Three years
10:06your trial has not begun
10:07bail.
10:08Four years
10:09your trial has not begun
10:10bail.
10:11The historic judgment
10:12of the present chief justice
10:13of India
10:14historic judgment
10:15in Najeeb's case
10:16all UAPA cases
10:18four years have passed
10:20and there's no chance
10:21that your trial
10:22will finish in the near future
10:24bail.
10:25Ten judgments
10:26of the Supreme Court
10:27Vernon's case
10:28other cases
10:30ten judgments
10:31at least
10:32and now you have a judge
10:34or now you have a judge
10:36Mr. Gonzalo
10:37stay with us
10:38I want to bring in
10:38Satyapal Jain
10:39back into this conversation
10:40because Satyapal Jain
10:41it's been five years
10:43five years
10:44where you know
10:44charges haven't been framed
10:46bail hasn't been given
10:48key witnesses
10:49haven't
10:49you know
10:50been examined
10:51where the Delhi police
10:52is concerned
10:53now
10:53on that account
10:54because of
10:55the various judgments
10:56and precedents
10:57that Mr. Colin
10:57Gonsalves gave
10:59I'll give you two
11:00you have Mr.
11:01you know
11:02the bench of justices
11:03Abhay S. Okha
11:05and Augustine George Masi
11:07who
11:07clearly stated
11:09and ruled
11:10bail is ruled
11:11jail is an exception
11:12even if
11:13it involves
11:14a UAPA case
11:16then you have
11:16I.B. Pardiwala
11:17and Ujwal Bhuyan
11:18observe that
11:19the right to bail
11:20of an accused
11:22cannot be withheld
11:23as a punishment
11:24irrespective of
11:25the nature of the crime
11:26even if it is
11:28under UAPA
11:29sir
11:29Madam
11:32please understand
11:33the working
11:33of the criminal law
11:35the principles
11:36of the criminal law
11:36as I said earlier
11:37also
11:38there is no question
11:39of any article 14
11:41or similarity
11:42in criminal law
11:42each case
11:43has to be decided
11:44on the facts
11:45and merits
11:46of each and every case
11:47you cannot apply
11:48any hard formula
11:50to each and every
11:51bail application
11:52the supreme court
11:53is the final authority
11:54as per the powers
11:55given by the
11:56constitution of India
11:57the two judgments
11:58that you are citing
11:59they are also
11:59by the supreme court
12:00you can't expect
12:02that every judgment
12:02will be as I want
12:03it to be
12:04you don't want
12:05that the way
12:06you want
12:07the judgment
12:07should come
12:08if it is not
12:08that way
12:09then I say
12:09no no no
12:10law is not
12:10being followed
12:11it is being
12:11flawed
12:12the supreme court
12:13I have got
12:14this 142 judgment
12:15with me
12:16which has given
12:17all the reasons
12:18of giving bail
12:19to five
12:19and also reason
12:21of not giving
12:22to only two people
12:23and supreme court
12:24has given them
12:25one year
12:25that in case
12:26the trial
12:27doesn't take
12:28some initial step
12:28what will happen
12:29in that one year
12:29sir
12:29what will happen
12:31in that one year
12:32that hasn't happened
12:33in the last five years
12:34I am telling you
12:36within one year
12:37if the prosecution
12:38doesn't proceed
12:39with the trial
12:39material witness
12:40the court has said
12:41you can move
12:43for bail
12:43after the protected
12:44witnesses have been
12:45examined
12:45because if the accused
12:46come out
12:47sometimes there are
12:48many cases
12:49where they threaten
12:50those witnesses also
12:51therefore
12:52the people are
12:53kept in jail
12:53in certain cases
12:54so that they cannot
12:55infudge the witnesses
12:56the court has
12:56said that
12:58until the witnesses
13:00have been examined
13:02or one year
13:03whichever comes
13:04in first
13:05by the speed
13:06of the investigation
13:07it doesn't seem
13:08that the witnesses
13:09will be cross examined
13:10and I am just taking
13:11I am just taking
13:12the example
13:13of what has happened
13:14in the last five years
13:15sir
13:15so what will change
13:16in the next
13:18one year
13:19or will suddenly
13:20article 21
13:21kick in
13:22which doesn't
13:23kick in right now
13:23the supreme court
13:24has laid down
13:25the time limit
13:26that within one year
13:27no substantial progress
13:29takes place
13:29they can apply again
13:30for bail
13:31supreme court
13:32will examine that
13:33let's have faith
13:34in supreme court
13:34we can't dictate
13:35supreme court
13:36that you decide
13:37in this way
13:37because in that case
13:38you have said
13:39so you say
13:39same thing
13:39in this case also
13:40supreme court
13:41has to examine
13:42the merits
13:43of each and every case
13:44let's not forget
13:45Irwin Kejriwal
13:46was also granted bail
13:47a few days back
13:48some man was granted bail
13:50by Delhi high court
13:51supreme court
13:51stayed that
13:52unfortunately
13:53when the judgment
13:54is as we are
13:55expecting it to be
13:56we say it's very fair
13:57and sometime
13:58when it is not
13:59as we are expecting
13:59so we come on
14:01so many people
14:02emergency and all that
14:03that is not the law
14:04we should have faith
14:06in this supreme court
14:07okay sir
14:07you know like I said
14:07I am no lawyer
14:08I am a journalist
14:09but at least one thing
14:10I have learnt
14:11and you can correct me
14:12if I am wrong
14:13the sheer foundation
14:14of criminal justice
14:14is the presumption
14:16of innocence
14:17and that is the tenets
14:18which criminal justice
14:20stands on
14:20which is the presumption
14:22of innocence sir
14:23yes
14:24but that doesn't mean
14:25that every person
14:26who is accused
14:26of any crime
14:27will be released
14:28on bail
14:28if you apply
14:29that principle
14:30lots of people
14:31who are in jail
14:31murder case
14:32rape case
14:34and all those cases
14:34everybody will be
14:35released on bail
14:36no
14:36the court will examine
14:38where there is a
14:39prime of shy case
14:39against you
14:40if there is a
14:41prime of shy case
14:42as the supreme court
14:42five years without trial
14:44five years without trial
14:45without framing of charges
14:46you know to defend
14:48that I would think
14:49is a blot on judiciary
14:50but then I am just
14:51a journalist
14:51I am no lawyer
14:52I want to bring in
14:53Mr. Gonsalves
14:54into this conversation
14:55Mr. Gonsalves
14:56this is the UAPA
14:58this concerns
14:59anti-terror activities
15:01it concerns sedition
15:03these are very
15:03very strong laws
15:05might be draconian
15:07but it is the
15:08reading of the law
15:09you are on mute
15:15again sir
15:16law has been read
15:19many times
15:21in many judgments
15:22of the supreme court
15:23even in 2025
15:252024
15:26recently
15:27so many persons
15:29have been released
15:30with three years
15:31in jail
15:31so many
15:33and the principle
15:35has been reiterated
15:36a hundred times
15:38if you can't do
15:39a speedy trial
15:40which is in the hands
15:41of the state
15:42you cannot keep
15:44a person in jail
15:45and what has the court
15:47done
15:48it has kept
15:49our finest
15:50human rights
15:51activists
15:52I must tell you
15:53the two who have
15:55been denied bail
15:56are one of the
15:57finest human rights
15:58activists of India
16:00who used no violence
16:02who only criticized
16:04the government
16:05in the strongest
16:06possible way
16:07they are in jail
16:09for no crime
16:10except please speak
16:11Mr. I am really
16:13surprised
16:13have you read
16:13the judgment
16:14Supreme Court has
16:15mentioned their role
16:16all over the game
16:17this is the beginning
16:19of the emergency of the
16:22let's go one by one
16:23sir
16:23all over the game
16:25okay I am going to
16:26I appreciate
16:26I am going to end it here
16:28I appreciate both of you
16:29for joining us
16:30well for now
16:32both Sharjeeel
16:33and Umar Khalid
16:35have been denied bail
16:36they have been given
16:37one year
16:37to reapply
16:39until the witnesses
16:40are cross-examined
16:41or it is a year
16:42whichever comes in first
16:43we are going to
16:43leave it at that
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