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  • 2 months ago
US President Donald Trump says the United States will 'run' Venezuela for the foreseeable future, following the capture of the country's leader Nicolas Maduro and his wife. The US bombed the capital of Caracas and other locations in a lightning military operation in the early hours of the morning local time. Mr Trump, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Secretary of Defence Pete Hegseth and other Washington officials later held a news conference about the operation. Elizabeth Dickinson is the Deputy Latin America Director for the International Crisis Group and discusses the potential impacts.

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00:00Yes, I think the closest comparison is probably in Panama a few decades ago.
00:07But really, in recent years, compared to Latin America policy from the United States in the last decade and a half, this really is unprecedented.
00:17And I think that the level of coercive messaging that this sends to the rest of the region is really significant,
00:22because essentially what the U.S. president has said, and frankly almost said it verbatim in his press conference a few hours ago,
00:30is that those leaders of Latin American countries who are not on board can face this type of military action.
00:37That is a very stark message, and I think stands to really reconfigure security arrangements throughout the region.
00:43Yeah, it certainly is interesting. I do remember during the press conference, there was a brief mention of Cuba and Cuba's government as well.
00:49But before we get into that, I want to talk about the German Chancellor Friedrich Merz,
00:54who came out to say that the legal assessment of American action in Venezuela will take time.
01:02What could be the international legal implications here that the U.S. may have to face in carrying out this mission?
01:10You know, I think there are legal implications at home within the United States and then also those abroad.
01:14At home, I think there are already a lot of questions from the U.S. Congress about why this action did not,
01:19why the president did not seek congressional approval beforehand.
01:23And in fact, I think resistance to the president's military campaign in the Caribbean,
01:27for example, the attacks against small trafficking speedboats that were allegedly carrying drugs,
01:32has already faced significant questions in Congress.
01:35So that, I think, is one layer here.
01:37You know, on an international scale, certainly, you know,
01:40the justification of force to remove another government does seem to go against sort of the U.N. charter
01:47and norms that have governed the world, really, since, you know, since World War II.
01:52I think in terms of some of the other details around this, and they're not details, frankly,
01:57they're huge aspects of this, but we just don't know.
02:00Are details, for example, about how many civilians were killed,
02:03what sort of infrastructure might have been damaged,
02:05the extent of follow-up from the strikes is really not known at this point.
02:10The question now, too, is what happens next now that Maduro is on his way to the United States
02:17to face charges there?
02:20What do you make of President Trump saying that the United States will be running Venezuela
02:24until such time a transition of power can be executed?
02:28Of course, we have no details of what that might actually look like now,
02:32but what do you make of those comments?
02:35This is a truly befuddling statement,
02:36because one of the first things that we noticed learning the details of this operation
02:40is, of course, that, yes, Maduro and his wife were removed,
02:45but they were just one part of a larger government system
02:48that is really a broader organism,
02:51a web of contexts and interests and alliances,
02:55held together, frankly, by patronage,
02:57by the spreading of corrupt rents throughout, up and down the system.
03:01All of that was left intact.
03:03The ministers were left there.
03:04The vice president, who has now been sworn in as the interim leader,
03:08all of that remains intact.
03:09And so I think, you know, while this was a removal of the head of state,
03:14it was certainly not, from all indications, a change of regime,
03:18because the regime goes much deeper.
03:19What the United States means by running Venezuela
03:25truly seems to disregard the history of U.S. military intervention in recent years
03:32in places like Iraq, in Libya, in Afghanistan,
03:36where governing the day after has proven far more challenging
03:39than the initial military operations to remove a particular party from power.
03:45So I think for us, this is the question.
03:47What happens next? What sort of planning is in place?
03:50What deal really has Washington struck with the interim leader, Delcey Rodriguez?
03:55And where do we go from here?
03:56Who will control, for example, basic services, the energy grid, provision of water?
04:01I think those are the things to watch in the coming hours
04:03to see really who is holding the reins of power in practice on the ground
04:08and what the U.S.'s role and influence may or may not be.
04:12You mentioned there the Vice President, Delcey Rodriguez.
04:17President Trump said that she'd been sworn in,
04:20given the vacancy that Maduro has now left.
04:24She has come out to speak on state TV to say that there is only one president,
04:29and that is Nicolás Maduro.
04:31I wonder, we also know, too, that she's had at least two conversations
04:36with the U.S. State Secretary Marco Rubio as well.
04:41I wonder what her role may be in a transition of power.
04:45This is a very delicate situation, and I think that's exactly the question that we all need to ask.
04:49What is this arrangement?
04:51What sort of power sharing or influence will the U.S. have?
04:55And a key factor here is the control of Venezuela's military apparatus,
05:00so the security forces, which, again, up to this point,
05:03have proven extremely resilient to efforts to fracture them.
05:06In repeated efforts at coups, at destabilizing the regime,
05:11the military has held together,
05:13and that is due to efforts during the government of Maduro
05:15and his predecessor, Hugo Chavez,
05:17to coup-proof this military against precisely these sorts of fissures.
05:22We don't know now where they stand.
05:24Are there splits?
05:25Is there a part of the military that's willing to have a transition?
05:28Is there a part that will resist?
05:30I imagine that Delcey Rodriguez is also in a very delicate situation
05:33in terms of managing those internal dynamics to which she is also subject.
05:38And I think we can't disregard the complexity of this situation,
05:42which is, again, going back to the question about sort of U.S. control,
05:45really the primary question at this moment is if the U.S. understands the level of complication
05:55that may enter into its attempts to establish now order
05:59once the situation sort of comes to a calm.
06:03Another interesting angle to this story, of course,
06:08is in relation to the opposition leader and Nobel Prize winner Maria Corina Machado.
06:16Now, the U.S. had seemingly been supportive of her.
06:20Apparently, they'd helped smuggle her out of Venezuela,
06:23where she was in hiding,
06:25in order for her to get to Norway to get her Nobel Peace Prize.
06:28But what do you make of President Trump dismissing her as potential leader of Venezuela?
06:35She, you know, he had said that she does not have the support of Venezuelans.
06:40Well, the point of departure here that's quite interesting is that Maria Corina Machado
06:43has been a proponent of U.S. military action in Venezuela.
06:47After years of attempts at nonviolent protest in elections
06:51and trying to unseat this government through peaceful means,
06:54and elections in 2024 that the opposition won,
06:57but that Maduro failed to recognize,
07:00I think Maria Corina leads a faction of the opposition
07:02that was looking for this sort of outside intervention.
07:06And she had formed what looked like an alliance with the Trump administration.
07:10The declaration by Trump in his press conference
07:13sort of dismissing her possibility to lead
07:15is certainly a blow to those ambitions.
07:18And we'll see if that is really a definitive statement
07:21or if we have a reconfiguration of these alliances going forward.
07:24It's quite interesting, in fact, in the context of which
07:27Maria Corina Machado, the opposition leader, of course,
07:30also put out a statement just hours before Trump's press conference
07:35saying that she would announce future plans for the people of Venezuela in the coming hours.
07:42It is interesting.
07:43I want to go back to that brief mention of Cuba during the press conference there
07:49that President Trump had given.
07:51I wonder if that was a veiled warning to the Diaz-Canada government there.
07:56And how do you think Havana may be viewing the current toppling of President Maduro?
08:01I think not just Cuba, but the broader region are really viewing this action with a lot of trepidation.
08:08Cuba, I think, of course, has long been on a priority list,
08:11particularly from Secretary of State Marco Rubio,
08:14in terms of destabilizing or even unseating the regime there.
08:18This is a significant political constituency within the United States
08:22of those who have escaped from Cuba in recent decades
08:25who have advocated for that policy for some time,
08:28advocated for the embargo, and have advocated for more aggressive U.S. actions.
08:32So there is certainly reason to believe that this could be a precursor
08:35to more significant U.S. policy and intervention, frankly, across Latin America.
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