- 8 minutes ago
'Stranger Things' creators Matt Duffer and Ross Duffer sat down with THR's Senior Entertainment Writer David Canfield to chat all about the final season of the Netflix series in a Directors in Focus conversation.
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00:00Please join me in giving a very, very warm welcome
00:02to Matt and Ross Duffer.
00:08Hey, guys.
00:09Hey.
00:10Hello.
00:10Thanks so much for being here.
00:12Thanks for having us.
00:13We are thrilled to have you.
00:15Let's talk a little bit about big picture vision
00:18for this season to start.
00:20From the beginning, you guys have talked a lot
00:22about the kinds of homages, influences, references
00:26that helped birth this show.
00:29And one thing that's interesting about this final season
00:31that I know you've talked about a little bit
00:32is that it's almost in conversation with itself
00:35and where you guys were at the beginning.
00:36So talk a little bit about that in terms
00:38of how you thought about bringing the show full circle.
00:43Yeah, I don't know.
00:44At a certain point, yeah, that's kind of where we started out,
00:49was kind of talking about a style of storytelling
00:51that we weren't seeing much anymore, that we grew up loving.
00:54And especially we hadn't seen it much on television.
00:57It was like, okay, what does this type of storytelling look like
01:00in a long format, which was a new thing all the way back in 2015
01:07in terms of being able to tell something more movie-like
01:10with shorter seasons.
01:11That was kind of the beginning of it.
01:14So it was like, okay, the landscape is changing.
01:16What can we do to take advantage of this?
01:19And then over the years, I mean, everything obviously has evolved,
01:25but to the point we're almost like 10 years later
01:28and the show is kind of, you know, it's very organic.
01:30And that's something I've loved about,
01:32we've loved about working in TV because, you know,
01:34initially we just dreamed of working in movies,
01:37was that it is very organic and it evolves.
01:40The actors influence it.
01:42The show becomes its own thing.
01:44And so, yeah, this season, it felt less and less like we're relying on
01:49or looking back at the films that inspired us.
01:52And it's more, yeah, in conversation with the show
01:56and also something that we didn't really realize
01:58till we were writing the final episode of how much the season
02:02and the shows and the themes of this final season,
02:06we're talking about where we were talking about
02:09what it felt like to make the show itself.
02:13And what our experience was working with these actors
02:16and watching them grow up.
02:19And especially the final episode, which is obviously not out,
02:22is kind of a commentary on what it felt like making the show
02:28and saying goodbye.
02:31I'm curious.
02:34Let that moment settle for a moment.
02:37I'm curious what you both can say
02:40about how you've evolved as filmmakers.
02:42You've directed on this show from the beginning.
02:45The scale of the show has gotten so much bigger.
02:48The scale of each episode has gotten so much bigger.
02:50It's feeling like real entities unto themselves.
02:53Coming into this season, how do you reflect on sort of where you were
02:56behind the camera at the very beginning versus how you felt now?
03:00Yeah, I mean, we were pretty inexperienced on that first season.
03:04We had written a few episodes of a TV show that we weren't show running.
03:08We had directed one small movie.
03:11And then suddenly we were not just show running,
03:14but we directed six out of those eight episodes on the first season.
03:18And we were really just used to very much collaborating with one another
03:26and not with a large group of people.
03:29And so I think part of it was us just becoming more comfortable with doing a deep dive on people
03:38and allowing them into our process and sharing our process with other people.
03:42So you sort of become this big hive mind.
03:45So I would say that was the biggest things.
03:46But what we do is, as you said, each season gets bigger and bigger.
03:50So we keep throwing sort of new challenges at ourselves.
03:54And I think that's part of why we've kept doing this show for 10 years,
03:59because it's been exciting and hard every year, but in a fun way.
04:03We're learning something new every time we go out and do a new season.
04:07You had some pretty incredible set pieces over the course of this show.
04:10But this one, I think, ranks up there with the very top.
04:14It's a one-er for starters.
04:16And it is not only is it a one-er, but it is one that has this enormous choreography
04:20with the characters and the action and visual effects.
04:24So just to start out, where does the conversation start on how you want to build out a sequence like that?
04:30I mean, we knew we wanted the, you know, a big, you know, a big battle sequence.
04:37And it's right, I mean, you definitely have to separate, you know, the writing from the directing,
04:41because, you know, I mean, that's the weird thing about writing this stuff,
04:43because you're writing and you have to not think about how painful it is going to be to execute some of this stuff.
04:50And then when you're starting to get to the point of prepping something, you're going,
04:54what were we thinking?
04:56Because this is kind of a nightmare, was a nightmare in every conceivable way,
05:00because it's, I mean, it's a big action sequence.
05:03It's at night, involves an insane amount of stunts, and it has children in it.
05:10The children part of it was what really made it difficult, because, you know, they can only,
05:14they can't work very late.
05:16So it's actually, I almost, I feel like it's a cheat calling it a one-er.
05:19It's like, think, how many stitches is in there? Five, something like that.
05:23So, because we could only do about, we could only do about two hours, something like that.
05:30We'd run out of the kids, yeah.
05:31Because before we ran out of time with the kids.
05:33So what we were doing, we would be directing other sequences, and then we had,
05:39our main AD would peel off, and they would start kind of prepping this sequence for a couple hours.
05:46So then we would show up, everything would more or less be ready to go, and we would start shooting it.
05:52And the goal was every night to just get one of the five, one of the five sequences done.
05:56And then, of course, it's Atlanta, and it was raining all the time.
05:59So every night it was raining or lightning or whatever.
06:02So it was, I mean, it was the whole, the whole thing was awful.
06:07But yeah, I mean, and the big right, you know, okay, let's do children of men.
06:10Let's shoot on a wide angle lens.
06:12Let's change the shutter. And just, you wanted to make it feel as immersive as possible.
06:18And even though it is heavy, you know, there's a lot of VFX.
06:21The only VFX are the monsters. So, you know, there's no digi doubles.
06:25Those are all, all ratchet pulls. And that's the other reason we split it up,
06:29because you can't, you know, I think most people know you can't, you know,
06:33be flinging those stuntmen around too many times, because, you know, they're going to get injured.
06:37But our stunt coordinator, you know, was like this, it was wild for them,
06:41because they're like, we're doing big pulls in the deep background.
06:45And they're like, usually when we're doing a big stunt, you want to feature it.
06:48But it was, but that was part of the fun of like, let's just set and make it the focus,
06:53the kids, and we're seeing everything from their point of view.
06:56So we'll have a big stunt, but it might be a hundred feet away,
06:59which is not something normally we would do and he would not do, but it all,
07:02I think hopefully contributed to the feeling of being immersed with these, with Mike and the kids.
07:07Yeah. The other thing I will say, it was just, it was so, I mean, actually the kids and,
07:11and, and Finn in particular, because he had to kind of be a leader. So we let him kind of take control of,
07:17of, um, allowed him a little bit to direct, direct these kids and put him in, um, a leadership role.
07:23They all looked up to him. And I think that, um, really helped his and, and their performance.
07:29And the other day it was just so amazing to shoot all the sets are, it's a giant back lot. And it's
07:35like Ross and I, it's been our dream since we were kids to shoot on the back lot. Cause we,
07:39we grew up in North Carolina and the first, um, the, uh, the first studio we, we visited was, um,
07:46was the, the Wilmington, um, the Wilmington studios. And we saw the back lot where they shot the crow,
07:53which we really loved. And it was like, ever since we saw that we wanted to shoot on the back lot.
07:58And we finally, um, we finally got to do that. It was so fun.
08:03I wonder if you could talk a little bit about working with this cast that's been there from the
08:08beginning, someone like Finn, you know, for those of us who've been watching the show for so many
08:11years now, there's a, there's an emotional relationship, not only to these characters,
08:15but watching these actors grow up. And I would imagine that's only stronger for you guys who've
08:20developed these very tight bonds with them. And then you can have a moment like this and a sequence
08:24like this, where we see Finn as a leader.
08:28Yeah. I think that that was part of the joy, I think of this season. And one reason we wanted to
08:33bring in, um, some young, some younger kids that were more or less their age when they started the
08:38show, cause it allowed them to, to step up in a way. So, um, yeah, we see it with, you know,
08:44Finn with these kids, we see it with, um, Sadie, um, with, with Nell, we'll see that in the scene
08:51later and it allowed them to, um, yeah, go into this leadership mentorship role, you know, in the
08:57first, uh, scene of the season, we have, you know, we had a young actor playing Will and we just let
09:03Noah go off and direct this kid as, you know, this is what I would do in this moment. And he,
09:09he was there the whole time side by side with him. And I thought that gave,
09:13it just gave the whole experience cause this was, it was a hard shoot, but it gave the whole
09:17experience a bit of a, it felt full circle and it felt, felt right. It felt like the right way to
09:22say, say goodbye to the show. One other element of this clip that I'd like to ask about is how
09:28the work with visual effects has evolved. I mean, that's obviously a very elaborate dance you guys
09:33are working with here, but it does feel like as the seasons have gone on, just that there's more
09:37sophistication in the way you use them, more complexity. So yeah, how did that evolve this time around?
09:43Yeah. I mean, we, we, yeah, we, we've learned so much about visual effects. I,
09:46we've never really relied on previous at all. Um, Ross, I in, in the past, haven't really enjoyed,
09:53uh, uh, previous. So we get it early. And then we, we, we, I mean, even, you know, because it's a
10:00television show and I mean, we have a, like a really luxurious schedule for TV, but it's still,
10:05you don't have this kind of prep that you would have, um, on, on a movie, but this was the first year
10:11because of the complexity of some of these sequences that we really heavily relied on
10:15via visual effects. And we were working with, um, this, in this sequence in particular was ILM
10:20and they're absolutely incredible. So, and because you have so many departments, um, you know,
10:26you obviously you have the actors and you, you have the, the, um, you have, you have stunts and
10:30cinematography and the camera, everybody has to know exactly what's going on at all times. So we,
10:34you know, you, you started with, uh, storyboards and concept art and then we moved to, uh, we moved
10:41to previs. Um, but at the same time, and there's some, you know, you don't want the actors to feel
10:46like puppets. You know, we found that out. Um, um, some of them let us know that. So, you know,
10:53you have to, you have to allow for, you don't want to pin them down so much. So it, so it was,
10:59it was a balance between making sure everybody knew what was going on, um, while at the same
11:05time allowing for some freedom. So, um, they don't feel like they're moving from, uh, A to B
11:12in a, in a, in too strict of a way. So there's a little bit of finding on the day, but also,
11:17uh, more planning, I think than we've ever done before. So coming off of last season,
11:22and even now, as we go into volume two, there's been a lot of mystery around, you know,
11:25Max's state, you know, what, where, where she is in the wider world of stranger things. Um,
11:31but talk about this moment a little bit, because there is, there are answers in this section of
11:36the story and, um, real character growth, I think as well. Yeah. I mean, we always knew,
11:42I mean, we, we knew that, um, Max was in Vecna's mind in the season four, but I think it was in the
11:49breaking of season five. We didn't realize until we were breaking it, that she was going to intersect,
11:54uh, with, with Holly. And that's when everything sort of, um, really started, started to click.
12:01And I think, but you never know until you put, um, two actors together. Um, we didn't know until we
12:07put, uh, Joe with Gaiden, that Steve and Dustin would be great. And then suddenly you just see
12:12them together and it just clicks. And I think, um, again, this is an instance of Sadie is just such a,
12:18she's such a pro. I mean, even when she was really, really young, I still remember we'd be like,
12:24Sadie would be on her mark and we're like, where, where are the boys? And she's just sitting there,
12:28just waiting for them to focus. She's always been so disciplined. And so I think putting her
12:34with a younger actor really, um, I think now really looked up to her and just really locked in and,
12:40you know, their journey obviously continues, um, in the next volume and they're just, uh,
12:45they're incredible together. I always say like, like, and Nell's amazing.
12:49And she reminded me so much, so much of Sadie. So I thought that was, that was great to put them
12:55together. Um, and you know, the better the actor is in a scene, it just forces everybody else to sort
13:01of, um, to elevate it. I think she, she learned, you know, so much from, from Sadie, but she came in,
13:07um, as a rock star. I'm at my, my always thing with, um, directing kids is just, you know,
13:14cast the right kid and, and as, as much as possible, uh, leave them alone. You know,
13:21not, you don't want to be over direct, over directing them. I mean, first of all, they're,
13:25they don't, um, yeah, I mean, a lot of it, as Ross said, is, is, is just making sure they're
13:31focusing with girls. That's much less of a problem, um, than, than with the boys. Um,
13:37especially when you get them in groups. So the girls are very, tend to be very, um, uh, much more,
13:43um, focused. And then I think you also, you want to treat them just as you do, you know,
13:48you're treating the, the, the adults. I mean, as much as possible, you don't want to treat them
13:53any differently that you treat them, um, respectfully. I mean, and, and, and you try to make it as
13:59comfortable as an environment as possible because it's very stressful, right? I mean,
14:02there's cameras everywhere. There's all this sort of pressure. So the more fun kind of and relaxed you
14:06make it, I think we found that that results in the better performances. Like, and now,
14:11and I don't know what's wrong with me and Ross, but they, I don't want to say they lose respect
14:17for us quickly, but they, uh, just start like now within a day was giving us so much shit.
14:26And, but I thought that was a good sign, right? It was like, okay, she's not, she's certainly not
14:30frightened of us. Um, and I think that results in, you know, a better, freer environment. So she's not
14:36scared to share ideas. We're not, you know, and, and, and she's not scared to push back. If she
14:42feels something isn't organic, we can be honest with her. She can be honest with us. So, and that,
14:47I don't know, that's, that's how we've, uh, found, found working with kids, um, is, is most successful.
14:55I imagine you learned that on the fly back in season one, a little bit.
14:58Yeah, we did. Yeah, no, we honest, we didn't have to do much. They just, when we put those,
15:03the boys together in that basement, they just, they just, there was a sense of play and fun
15:08and youthfulness and it just felt in real. And again, I think 90% of that is casting and the
15:13other 10% is just, yeah. Like Matt's saying, making sure, cause the weird thing about it,
15:19right. And, you know, I think we'll maybe see Jake in a second. If you haven't been on camera much,
15:23Nell has, so it was less of an issue with her, but for some of the younger actors that we've had,
15:29part of it is just making them feel comfortable when you've got a, a techno crane rushing into
15:34their face. It's a weird, weird experience. And to just, so sometimes for us, it's just doing a
15:40bunch of takes, especially in the early days and just giving them space to like, to just get
15:45comfortable with this sort of weird environment that we're in. And then once they're with that,
15:50then they can really just be themselves. And then, you know, with Sadie, I think too,
15:54you want a good scene partner, Sadie, you know, we've all had actors who, you know, deliver on
15:59their closeup and then sort of phone it in when they're off camera. But what's amazing about Sadie
16:04is she's, she's always going to give it her all. And she's particularly going to give it her all when
16:08she's working with, you know, a younger actress. And that really just helps elevate Nell to get the
16:14place she needs to be. Even continuing with how we were talking about
16:18Finn with the last clip, have you found these original cast members stepping into these kinds
16:24of new leadership roles and even maybe changing the way that they are performing on set, say,
16:28in a scene with Nell where they are in suddenly more of a guiding position?
16:34Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that's something where Ross and I, I mean,
16:38we've always, you know, that, like I was saying, like, we, we try as much as possible to,
16:42to, to, um, to treat them as adults. And now, you know, as the internet loves to remind us,
16:49they are adults. And, um, so you, you treat them that way and you put as much, you, you,
16:54we start handing over sort of some directing responsibilities to them, you know? And I think
16:59that makes them, um, the, the more they feel like you're trusting them, I think that leads to,
17:05um, more, the more confidence you give them, I think that, that results in better performances,
17:12or at least we've found. And like, that's sort of our philosophy across the board, which is to,
17:16to, or something we've learned, um, which is to be less prescriptive. I think Ross and I are somewhat,
17:22uh, I think most directors are like this, but controlling and a little bit, um, OCD in terms
17:30of getting everything. And I think we've become better at being a little bit more flexible and
17:36relaxed and allowing, um, others. And, and this includes department heads and, and actors to take
17:44on a little bit more responsibility. I found the more you trust them actually, and the more they feel
17:52invested and, um, responsible for what's happening on set, it's a better environment on set because
17:59everyone's feeling like they're contributing in a, in a significant way. So it's more fun. Um,
18:04but it also results in better work, or at least that's what we've, that's what, that's what we found.
18:10So it's, it's much more collaborative, I think, than it was, um, um, back in, back in season one.
18:18Last thing I wanted to ask about with this clip is the setting. And to me, it's a great example of just
18:23sort of the boundless imagination that you guys get to work with in a show like this. Um, in this cave
18:28setting, talking about figuring out what Vecna's mindscape is going to look like.
18:34What is that initial starting point? And then how do you figure out where you're going to shoot it,
18:38what you want it to look like? Um, yeah, I mean, we do, I mean, that's, this is sort of the weirdest,
18:46this is sort of our most, um, left field, left field storyline in that we're dealing with,
18:51we're dealing with memories, but I think what's been part of the fun of the show is that each season
18:56we're able to add new ideas to the mythology and stuff that we just sort of dipped our toe
19:01in, in the first couple of seasons, we're now able to just go, go all the way in. I think there were
19:07so many discussions about, um, Vecna's mindscape. And I think ultimately what we realized is we just
19:14wanted to continue to ground it in the memories. Um, what, so it's, it can be as simple as something
19:20like, you know, uh, 1950s high school hallway and just the juxtaposition of that with this cave is
19:28automatically going to create, um, a level of, of mystery and weirdness that, you know,
19:33we don't need to push it, uh, necessarily further than that. We talked a lot about though, the cell,
19:38that movie, the Tarson movie, um, that one we talked about a lot. There are a few movies and shows
19:43that do play around with, with memories. And in that case, it's very specific as you're in the memories of
19:48a, of a bad person of a serial killer. So, um, you know, we looked at stuff like that in terms of
19:53how, how best to pull off, uh, Vecna's mind. And this one in particular, also we talked about,
19:59but this is more to do with like the sort of the entrance of the cave. Um, so not particularly
20:03relevant to this clip, but we talked about like picnic at hanging rock and just sort of that,
20:07that sort of sense of, uh, you, you just want to, this feeling that something is off. And the,
20:11the other thing we did was, I, you know, that we really wanted and pushed for was just as much as we could
20:17build, you know, so, so almost everything is, um, as set, obviously there's, there's blue screen on
20:24the window of the cave, but then we went to, uh, New Mexico to shoot, you know, to shoot all the
20:30plates and everything outside the cave. So we're trying as much as possible to keep it, um, keep
20:34it real. So your ground, you, you know, you have these sort of fantastical ideas, but you're,
20:38you're doing your best to ground it as, as much as you can.
20:42We were talking backstage about the evolution of this scene and particularly the tone of this
20:48scene. So yeah. What can you share about that? Well, I think part of the fun, this is part of
20:52the one reason we love, I mean, we love writing, but the discovery on the day of the direction.
20:57So like, you know, I mean, on TikTok, there's all this stuff of people like doing the ruler and
21:02like hitting their friends on the head, like Derek. And I think what's amazing about something like that
21:06is that it's on the, you know, in the script, it's just, he taps them. Right. And you're,
21:12but then you're there rehearsing the scene and there's so many kids are so spread out. We're like,
21:16we don't want him like having to get up and walk over. It's not very cinematic.
21:20He can't, we were like, he can't reach them.
21:22He can't reach them. And so I think, um, our AD tutor said, we're, we're looking for something.
21:26He brought up a ruler and we're like, that's, and then we just had Jake do it. And we all started
21:31laughing and it's just a discovery on the day. And the same, I remember though,
21:36he was doing it, he kept doing it very gently. Jake is the sweetest kid and he didn't want to
21:40hurt anybody. It was like, you're not going to hurt them. I was like, just hit it hard.
21:45I kept having him hit them harder. Um, uh, I think kids were fine. I mean,
21:50you can tell it's still not very hard, but he was, he was so resistant.
21:54And then with AJ too, who, who's ducking under, you know, again, that's in the script. He is,
22:00she actually does spot him. And then he, it's just, he's like, we say he scurries down the ladder.
22:05It wasn't particularly written as a, as a joke. And it's, I mean, I think that's the first take
22:10that's in there. Cause we just filmed it and he like looked like a little gopher and then ducked
22:15down and we all just burst out laughing and we're like, we can't replicate. I don't know what he did.
22:21It was no direction on our part. It was just brilliant. He wasn't trying to be funny. Nobody
22:26was, that was not supposed to be a funny moment. So we all, we are all died. Finn thought it was,
22:30we kept playing the playback. We thought it was so funny. And, uh, then we, in post,
22:37we just pushed it and added a little trumpet. We had our music editor, add a little trumpet.
22:42And then we just thought it was so fucking funny. And then, uh, and then, and you just don't know
22:46if anyone else is going to find it funny, but other people thought, like, you know, you know,
22:49it's one of those things that everyone thought was funny, but it was like so many of the moments that
22:53hit the most, especially the comedic moments we found are the ones that we're sort of discovering on,
22:59on, on, on set either because of, of, uh, when you're finding something not working and having
23:05to look for a solution like the ruler or because it's something that, you know, an actor does that
23:10is either intentional or unintentional. It's really funny, but is, is itself a discovery.
23:14Those are the moments that sort of are, are the most, um, the most impactful.
23:21More general question, maybe to wrap, um, this season ends with this, excuse me,
23:25this volume, uh, ends with a huge reveal, uh, with will. And one of the best things about the
23:32show for me, even from the very beginning is the way that you guys fuse really big spectacle
23:36moments with major character reveals, major character developments. And I wonder if you could
23:42just talk about this chunk of the season, this opening to the season along those lines,
23:46how you thought about expanding the scale versus starting to give viewers some big answers about
23:52these characters. I mean, I think it's the thing we're trying to, we try to be very careful about,
23:57you know, whether we're successful or not, but, um, with it is that we do want to scale up and we,
24:02we want to, you know, um, we want bigger visual effects and bigger set pieces, but we don't want
24:08to lose sight of, um, the characters or the emotion. I think that's the, the most important thing.
24:15And, um, and so we, we love these kinds of sequences in movies and shows, but sometimes
24:21we do find ourselves zoning out because we're not connected to what's happening on an emotional
24:26level. Um, like you can have the most incredible action sequence ever, but if I'm not invested in,
24:31in the people on the ground, then I'm, I really just, I've, I've actually, I do fall asleep sometimes.
24:37So I think the key was the key for us and the sweet spot for us is if it is, you know,
24:43the action is sort of climaxing at the same time as, um, something in a character arc or something,
24:49there's an emotional climax. So I thought, you know, the model for us this year was,
24:54you know, we, I think we were most successful in season four with a dear Billy episode where we had
24:59sort of Max's emotional journey climaxing at the same time as, you know, this incredible,
25:03um, you know, sort of peak visual effects spectacle moment. And so that's what we were,
25:09uh, you know, trying to do what we wanted to try to do here. Whereas we had Will's emotional journey,
25:15um, which we'd been building from episode one through four climaxing at the same time as we had
25:21this, um, visual effects kind of extravaganza. Yeah. Usually with what we've been trying to do
25:27this season is when we're thinking we're not going, oh, that'll be a great set piece or a moment,
25:32or that'll shock the audience. It's going where we're doing character work first. So you're going,
25:36you're building to this moment with will, and then you devise the set piece around that to enhance
25:43it. I think that for us, we found that that's the best way for this show, as opposed to going,
25:48that's a great set piece and let's try to wedge character. And you just, you do it the other way
25:52around. And it's the same in volume two, all the big set pieces generally are built around,
25:56you know, a big character moment, um, or emotional reveal. Matt Ross. Thank you both so much.
26:03Thank you. Thanks. Thank you.
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