- 2 hours ago
The big focus of this episode of India First is on the surge of 'digital arrest' cases and cyber fraud across India, a criminal tactic with devastating financial and personal consequences.
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00:00Beware, don't get cheated online.
00:03A former top police officer has shot himself in Punjab after he fell victim to cyber crime and he lost crores.
00:12Currently, he's battling for his life in hospital.
00:15A former top secretary to government fell victim to cyber fraud.
00:19Another former top technocrat was under digital arrest and he gave away virtually his entire life savings.
00:28He didn't say a word to his family, even though his family was in the same house.
00:34As these cyber criminals traumatized him, first mentally and then broke him emotionally.
00:41Are you safe? Is your money safe?
00:44I'm Gaurav Savan, top police officers join me on this India First special broadcast.
00:50Watch this, stay safe and keep your money safe online.
00:55Remember, being forewarned is being forearmed.
01:04Beware of cyber fraud.
01:11Alarming spike in cyber crimes.
01:20Fishing links trap users.
01:25One phone call can wipe out savings.
01:39Fighting cyber crime terror.
01:41That is a big focus on India First.
01:43Every case study is heartbreaking.
01:50We work our entire lives saving money for a rainy day, for the autumn of our lives.
01:56And we are by and large, good people, God-fearing, trusting people.
02:00And then one day, that phone call or that online message, we've been warned about it and yet we fall victim.
02:09Why?
02:10Can you imagine a police officer, a senior police officer, who's dealt with criminals all his life, falling victim?
02:17Or a former top bureaucrat or a technocrat?
02:20Or teachers, doctors, army officers, veterans, their families?
02:24Imagine losing your entire life savings to one OTP or one-time password.
02:32Cyber fraud is highly organized.
02:34It's a multi-crore industry, often operating from beyond the country's borders.
02:39So watch every instance that we get for you.
02:43Watch this report very carefully.
02:45There are lessons to be drawn for everyone.
03:04I've checked and checked.
03:05I've seen that both of them have been debited.
03:06Across India, cyber fraud has turned into digital terror.
03:15Crows looted, victims helpless and justice delayed.
03:19In Punjab's Patiala, former IPS officer Amar Singh Chahal, with 29 years of service, was cheated of 8 crore 10 lakh rupees.
03:28The fraud pushed the former IG into extreme mental stress.
03:31This is not one city, not one victim.
03:35India today exposes similar cyber fraud across India.
03:40In Kanpur, a dialysis patient was kept under digital arrest for 70 days.
03:45Actually, I didn't understand what I was doing with digital arrest.
03:49What are the things that I was doing?
03:50And the time I was doing dilation, the time I was doing so much harm.
03:55That they took the benefit of me.
03:57A CBI employee sat in my address and said,
04:02that this is a national security case, I don't want to tell anyone in any situation.
04:07In Patna, cyber fraudsters posed as CBI officers and judges.
04:24He was seen in the video call of the CBI officer.
04:28He was seen in the court of judge's court.
04:31He was seen in the court.
04:31He was seen in the court.
04:33He was sent in the court.
04:34He was heard of the CBI officer.
04:36He was told, that you did not do anything.
04:38He has taken the same money.
04:40Now, he asked him what he was doing with liquid assets,
04:45what he was keeping on.
04:47He asked us and told us all about this.
04:51He asked SDFC Bank and took it from there.
04:58These threats and fake arrest visuals looted one crore.
05:03They don't know how they got to know my children.
05:08We will not give them a job, we will stop their travel.
05:14I had a lot of depression and fear.
05:18I shared my money with them.
05:21How much money did I have?
05:23I have got about 1 crore of savings and everything.
05:31Over a period of seven days.
05:37Police are urging people to stay alert as cyber scams continue to multiply.
05:45I would like to tell you a basic thing.
05:49If you stay away from greed, all of you get angry.
05:55OTP is a very big fraud.
05:58They take OTP from you and then you get fraud.
06:04The third thing is that there are bugs that are unwanted mails or unwanted posts.
06:12When you open them, they give you all the knowledge of your bank and mobile.
06:19If you stay safe from these things, then you will be saved from fraud.
06:25Cyber criminals are faster than the system.
06:31Until enforcement improves, stay alert, stay informed, because it could be you next.
06:37Bureau Report, India Today.
06:39The cyber criminals are highly organized.
06:44They operate from safe havens beyond the country's borders.
06:47They have VPNs, that's remote access, bulletproof hosting, end-to-end encryption that complicates lawful interception.
06:55So how can you and your money stay safe?
06:58Because projections indicate India could face up to 1 trillion cyber attacks annually by 2023, by 2033, and 17 trillion by 2047.
07:09So what are long-term strategic investments in technology that we need to do?
07:13Or international partnerships, public-private collaboration?
07:17What can you do to keep your money safe?
07:20We have both victims of cyber fraud, cyber security experts and police officers with us on this special broadcast.
07:28Joining me on India First is Sonam Shivare.
07:30Sonam sadly lost her father to a cyber crime.
07:34Also with us is Vineet Kumar.
07:36He's DCP Cyber Security.
07:39In Delhi Police with us is also Jitin Jain.
07:42He's a cyber security expert.
07:43Pawan Duggal is a cyber law advocate and analyst.
07:49Sonam, I want to begin by asking you, Sonam,
07:52what happened to you with your father?
07:55What happened to you with your father?
07:57Why did you take your knowledge as a report?
07:59Why did you take your knowledge?
08:00Sonam, sir, last month, 20th,
08:04there was a first call that you had to do with your number from HDFC.
08:08There was a terror funding.
08:09The 21th, they wrote the application in crime branch.
08:15But, I don't know, due to some reasons,
08:18they were going to submit.
08:20At the same time, they had a call.
08:23As we told them, they talked to them.
08:25And then, they talked to them one hour.
08:28After that, they didn't submit the application.
08:31They were going to the crime branch in crime branch.
08:34After that, when we saw our phone phone,
08:37we saw a video call, a voice call.
08:41Then, they had a signal app download.
08:45In which, they had a sign of the app.
08:47They were trapped in their activities.
08:51They didn't know what psychological
08:54my father had to be molest.
08:56They didn't share anything with them.
08:59And when he was an advocate,
09:01he was a lawyer who knew the law.
09:03Definitely, they were aware.
09:05Then, they had to submit their application to the crime branch.
09:10But, what reason?
09:11The same, they told them that they were going to submit.
09:17The 21st to 140.
09:19And, they immediately call them.
09:21That means, their phone is recorded.
09:22Then, they talked to them one hour.
09:25After that, they didn't submit their application.
09:28We got the application to the 25th.
09:31When police checked our parents' documents.
09:35Then, we got to know that they had to be able to submit their application.
09:39Of course, they did.
09:43that they didn't have any discussion.
09:48They were aware of how they were trapped,
09:51which way they were working,
09:53and now it's just one month.
09:55The police side of the police...
09:58Your father was a deputy,
10:00who was a digital arrest,
10:03these cyber criminals.
10:04How did he contact us,
10:06or did he know that?
10:07Who were those people?
10:08How did he get a digital arrest?
10:12Sir, this is the work of the police.
10:13How can we do this?
10:15Today is the one month.
10:17Last month, it was the 24th.
10:19It's been a whole month.
10:20But the police don't know
10:22what the state of the police are doing,
10:24what they are doing.
10:25They don't have anything to do in this case.
10:30What they have to do.
10:32Let me bring in our experts on this.
10:35Mr. Kumar, as DCP of Cybercell,
10:40would something like this have been preventable?
10:44He's an advocate, educated, knows the law,
10:47and yet falls victim to a digital arrest.
10:51Yes, Gaurav.
10:53I believe this can be prevented,
10:57but only if people are aware of the modus operandi
11:01of cyber criminals.
11:02If they understand what is digital arrest,
11:05there is nothing like digital arrest in law of land.
11:09Police would not do something like this, generally.
11:13If somebody is scaring someone on phone
11:19that he or she has been involved in terror funding,
11:22money laundering,
11:23then we'll have to take that with a pinch of salt.
11:26So, I believe awareness would be the key for this.
11:30Only awareness can prevent something like this.
11:32And that's exactly why on India today,
11:34we're carrying out these exercises
11:37and routinely bringing out these stories
11:39for everyone to see.
11:41Sonam, you said to your father,
11:44who also called him,
11:46that the terror attack in the first place,
11:48that he has funded funding.
11:50Who said what?
11:52Do you know anything?
11:53The mobile number where the phone calls were.
11:55Who downloaded the app?
11:58What happened to you?
12:00What happened to you?
12:01What happened to you?
12:02The police have told you that
12:03that the number is probably Delhi and Assam.
12:05And now there are activities that are still going on.
12:09But still,
12:11they have not taken action to them.
12:15What do you want to wait for them?
12:17One month has been done.
12:19At least,
12:20these things should be immediate.
12:21What do you need to know?
12:22How do you know that they have told you
12:24that they have told you,
12:26people who have been fighting for the terror fund?
12:29Tell you one of the applications,
12:29what do you want to give them?
12:30Yeah, they have written a application.
12:33The applications,
12:34they have written the application.
12:35For you to share.
12:36What did they have told you?
12:39They sent in the application?
12:40They sent out a question that
12:42you are anti-terrorist.
12:44They said they are molest.
12:47My father was a very social worker.
12:51Mr. Ashok Kumar is former DGP of Uttarakhand. He is someone who has written extensively and
13:21dealt with cybercrime very extensively. Sir, wonderful having you on the show, but I want
13:27to understand from you, if somebody gets a phone call that says, you, I'm calling from the NIA or
13:32I'm calling from CBI or Enforcement Directorate or Customs and you're involved in this fraud,
13:37you funded Pahlgaam terror attack or words to that effect and your property will be seized,
13:41what should an individual do?
13:43Thanks, Kaurav. Firstly, let me tell you, these kind of cybercrimes happen because of fear,
13:52greed or curiosity. So, if you have done nothing wrong, why do you fear? The most important thing
14:00is there is nothing like digital arrest at all. There is nothing like digital arrest. It is all
14:05a fraud, all a fake thing, all creation of criminals. No police will do a digital arrest
14:11with you. So, this awareness needs to be spread to everyone that it is all fake. Nobody will send
14:17you the digital arrest warrant and you are arrested digitally. It is totally fake thing. This needs
14:22to be understood. And the unfortunate, most unfortunate thing is that even the lawyers, the police officers
14:29who should know everything about law, they also get trapped. That means there is something they are
14:35worrying about, you know, they fear something. Otherwise, why, if you have done nothing wrong,
14:41let them, how can they connect you with terror funding of any, this thing, a terrorist attack?
14:46You have done nothing wrong. Be clear in your conscience. So, and you should realize it's,
14:51all these are cyberfrauds. Now they have started taking the terror funding and all. So,
14:57there is pure and pure cyberfraud. Okay, Mr. Duggal, clearly this isn't an isolated case.
15:04What should Sonam's father, who was an advocate by profession, educated, knows the law, could he have
15:12done something differently? Because the number of cases are going up exponentially. It's almost like
15:18an explosion every year, the attempts that are being made every day now. Well, as a lawyer, he would
15:26have been very much familiar with the legal framework. So, first thing I would have expected
15:30him to have done is to disconnect. Now, he chose not to disconnect and chose because of FOMO, fear of
15:37missing out, to continue the conversation was the reason why he landed up in this new spiral vortex.
15:43The fact remains is that as a lawyer, you know, the law only requires arrest in the physical format.
15:50Even if the Bharati Niai Sanita has come in, it does not really authorize the use of technology
15:56for the purposes of arresting. So, that's something that should have been there. But please remember,
16:02we are all talking about academic concepts. When it comes on to you, you lose your objectivity,
16:08you become subjective. You either believe that you are likely to lose something,
16:12or you are likely to be facing consequences. So, as a lawyer who was threatened with the fact that
16:17he could be connected with money laundering in terrorism cases on Pahlgaam, that could have
16:22been one triggering factor while he would have continued this exercise. But I think we have to
16:27have a lesson learned from this. Number one, come what may, whatever happens, tomorrow morning,
16:33there still will be a new day. The sun will still rise. Number two, come what may, the power of
16:38disconnection needs to be exercised like a brahmastra by every person. The moment you get a tinkling of the
16:46fact that somebody is trying to put you in fear or panic, or someone is trying to force you to do
16:52something in an urgent space of time, when you don't want to do that, is an indication that this
16:57is not going right. The best is to disconnect. And even if you have lost some money, no problem.
17:02The important issue is you have to ask yourself, what exactly did I do wrong? And what I need to
17:07ensure I don't do again, in order to avoid becoming victim of a cybercrime.
17:11That's a very pertinent point. That's a very pertinent point to make. And Mr. Vinit Kumar,
17:17as DCP Cyber Cell Delhi, is that the brahmastra every Indian must adopt, disconnect, moment you
17:26get such a call? Absolutely, Gaurav, absolutely. I can't agree more. We should not be talking
17:32to these cyber foresters. The moment we realize that somebody is trying to scare us, we should
17:38disconnect. And also the fact that if something like this happens, if some kind of fear goes
17:42in the mind of the victim, then he or she can always report to the nearest police station,
17:50explain what is happening, talk to their friends and family members, and also they may just call
17:57on 1930, which is National Cyber Helpline. 1930. Yes, yes. I'll repeat it.
18:02So we're putting that out on your television screen also. 1930. If there is any cyber fraud,
18:09you suspect cyber fraud, give out that number, make that call and disconnect. Am I right, sir?
18:14Yes, yes, Gaurav, very much. If these things are done, then I'm sure one will be able to prevent
18:21himself or herself from being the victim of cyber fraud. Jit and Jain, often do we make the mistake
18:27of not contacting family members? So, you know, this isn't an isolated case. There are other instances
18:32that we'll be referring to because for the, I can't understand how a senior police officer or a senior
18:39IES officer, I mean, IES officers, you make policy for a country. How can you fall victim to cyber fraud?
18:46And it's happened. We've got a number of cases that we'll be talking about. Is the government doing
18:50enough to sensitize people? You know, get a call, disconnect. Why do people even engage, Jitin?
19:01You're on mute. Okay, unmute yourself, sir. Yeah, are you able to hear me now? Strength 5, go on, sir.
19:08Yeah. So, Gaurav, we've had multiple debates on digital arrests and cyber frauds on India Today
19:13Channel itself. So, there are four things we must now keep in mind. A, let's stop calling them
19:19cyber frauds because this has gone beyond frauds, beyond, you know, the money he is. This is now
19:24taking away lives. This is now getting into this modest operandi of this Chinese loan apps where
19:29students are committing suicides because they were unable to pay. Now, you are seeing senior citizens
19:32who have paid money and are still committing suicides because of social stigma, because of, you know,
19:37the public image, the public image being targeted and destroyed in public. And so, this is one. Two,
19:45I think the messaging, what you are saying, we have to make people aware. I slightly disagree
19:50because I think who do you want to make aware? The most aware are the now ones who are becoming
19:56victims. India Today journalists became a victim of digital fraud last year. I think we did a show on
20:01that with Rahul. You have seen senior police, setting police officers, IPS officers falling prey to it,
20:07retired ones, retired EGPs. You have seen civil servants, you have seen now lawyers. So, I think
20:13when it comes to, you know, their storytelling, I think their messaging is more powerful than your
20:18awareness messaging. The way they are able to manipulate a human mind, especially senior citizens
20:22telling them that their loved ones are caught in some drug issue in a foreign country and they need to
20:27pay money immediately or they have ordered some, you know, drug parcel or their SIM card is being
20:32issued on their name, which is used for terror calling and, you know, terror communications or
20:35their bank accounts are being used for terror financing. So, fair enough. I know, but I think
20:39every instance needs to be brought out, Jitin. No, I think every instance needs to be brought out.
20:44Every instance. I mean, it's not that this won't do and that won't do. I disagree with you,
20:48but I want, I want other instances. I want other instances out in public domain. Listen in,
20:53listen in to one more instance that's coming out. One more instance that's coming out,
20:57how a senior citizen lost his entire life saving. Listen in.
21:02Yeah, I want to get home.
21:11Yeah, it's not that my situation is going to be a bad thing.
21:16I was 19 years old, and I had to leave my eyes.
21:20I said, it's okay here.
21:22I said, I'm not okay, I'll do it later.
21:25So when I came home, I called my phone again,
21:28that I had a money laundering case with you.
21:32Mr. Nariz Agrawal, the chairman of the jet airways,
21:36he said that I gave him 10% of the scheme.
21:40I gave him 10% of the scheme of 538 crores.
21:44I used the ATM and checkbook.
21:50After that, there was a CBI member,
21:53I sat in my address and said,
21:57that there is a national security case,
21:59but I don't want to tell this to anyone.
22:02In the Supreme Court, this case is running
22:05and there is a national security case.
22:08So that's why you want to tell the children
22:10or the residents.
22:12and you have to stay here,
22:14and you don't need to tell the children.
22:16I was standing in front of them for 24 hours.
22:19I was always standing here.
22:21If I went to the bathroom,
22:23I would say to go to the bathroom,
22:25I would say to go to the bathroom,
22:26sir, I'm going to the bathroom.
22:28And if it was late in the bathroom,
22:30I would stop there.
22:31So, Mr. Vineet Kumar,
22:34this gentleman is a retired engineer by profession.
22:39He is now having to borrow money even to have dialysis done.
22:44And yet, somebody called him up and said,
22:47that there is money laundering,
22:48you are allegedly involved in it,
22:50you will be arrested,
22:51or you give us this kind of money.
22:53For the life of me, I can't understand,
22:55why would somebody fall victim to such kind of phone calls?
22:59Can you explain that, sir?
23:00See, Gaurav, look at what he said.
23:03Look closely, listen to what the victim says.
23:06He's saying that they've isolated him.
23:09Literally in the sense that he should not be talking
23:11to anyone about it.
23:13This is the typical modus operandi
23:15where one would not come to know what is happening to him.
23:19If he's keeping,
23:20the victim is keeping everything to himself.
23:22So this is how they build this wave of deceit and fraud.
23:27The victim will not be able to talk to anyone.
23:30He'll not be able to understand.
23:32So he's only being fed the element of fear
23:35in his mind.
23:37So that is how he would be acting something like this.
23:40No, but then what should somebody do?
23:42Keep in touch with members of your family, Mr. Ashok Kumar.
23:45Because often children are not staying with elderly parents
23:48and elderly parents, they fear the worst.
23:51They fear the worst.
23:52Communication with loved ones is very less.
23:55And often elderly don't even listen to their children.
23:58I know of an instance where, you know,
24:01the son told the father,
24:03this is fraud, don't fall for it.
24:05And yet the old man fell for it.
24:07What would you make of these instances, sir?
24:10Firstly, I would say that the country needs to know
24:14that there is nothing like digital arrest.
24:17Digital arrest is a total fake drama.
24:20The whole country, if they know,
24:21they will cut the phone immediately.
24:23They are telling you that you are arrested digitally.
24:26I am sitting a police officer,
24:27CBI officer, ED officer.
24:29That's what they are doing.
24:30So if you know that there is nothing like this in law,
24:33no ED, no CBI, no police,
24:35no NIA is going to arrest you at home like this digitally.
24:39So we need to cut the phone.
24:41As Mohan Dhukalji said, we can even do it in between.
24:44If you have lost some money,
24:45ten lakhs, five lakhs, ten thousand, fifty lakhs,
24:48in between also you can cut it off and get out of it.
24:51It is total fake.
24:53Then you should talk to your family,
24:55you should talk to your friends,
24:56you should talk to the police.
24:58That is what needs to be done.
25:00Why are you so much worried?
25:02It is some kind of fear that is inside you,
25:04that you get trapped,
25:06you get hypnotized,
25:07you get worried.
25:08So this is the thing that is required.
25:11Is it also greed?
25:13Is it also greed in some instances,
25:16you know, where people promise you double the money?
25:19But I will come to that instance,
25:20you know, in a moment,
25:21Jitin, you were nodding,
25:22you were disagreeing with Mr. Ashok Kumar
25:25on disconnecting instantly.
25:27What part of it are you disagreeing with, sir?
25:29No, no, I am not disagreeing, Gaurav.
25:31These are all good gangs we should give.
25:33I think we are all becoming part of the Delhi debates.
25:35We are not understanding that by giving this,
25:37you know, things which are not working,
25:39we are further victimizing the prospective victims.
25:41I think we should look what we can do to,
25:43you know, kill the solution at the very bottom.
25:46It's a problem at the very bottom itself.
25:48And for that, there is only one solution.
25:50The nucleus of this entire modus operandi is fraud,
25:53fraud for money.
25:54And the money is not being snatched away
25:56in the broad daylight by taking away cash
25:59or doing some robbery.
26:00It is transferred digitally, you know,
26:02a bank account in a conventional banking ecosystem.
26:04How can money disappear?
26:05And that is where I think we have to figure out that
26:07instead of giving this sermons off to WhatsApp
26:09that,
26:10you should go on WhatsApp
26:12so that fraud will become less.
26:14This is all crap, you know,
26:16crappy ideas just to satisfy some public opinion.
26:18What you should do that every bank account
26:20has to have a biometric KYC.
26:22Every cash withdrawal,
26:23beyond a certain amount,
26:24has to have a physical biometric verification.
26:27Okay.
26:28You freeze the money from cash withdrawal,
26:30you freeze the money in banking ecosystem,
26:32everything will fall into place.
26:34How can there be a situation where 5,000 bank accounts
26:37are being used as new accounts without any KYC?
26:40You ask WhatsApp to have a SIM in the mobile phone,
26:43otherwise WhatsApp will not work.
26:45But you don't want the bank manager to check
26:47the physical biometric KYC when millions
26:49That's a very pertinent point.
26:51Mr. Dugal, that's a very pertinent point.
26:53Because when money is transferred from one account to the other
26:56and then the police said that's just a mule account
26:59and from there it goes to 30 other accounts
27:01which may be on phone pay or Paytm
27:05and then it's instantly withdrawn.
27:07It would show a very wide network.
27:09How can that be checked?
27:12The Reserve Bank of India can play a pioneering role in this regard.
27:16If you are able to tighten the news on the banks,
27:20make them responsible that the moment unauthorized payment
27:24goes from one account to the other
27:26the bank will be liable and can be liable to pay the money back.
27:29It only will be an extension of the RBI notification
27:32of 6th of July 2017
27:34which talked of a zero liability for customers.
27:37Here also and digital rest we are landing up losing a lot of money.
27:41In my book, the recent book that's come online frauds and law,
27:44I've argued that if the RBI can actually take a very strong stand
27:49then we will be able to cover a big chunk of this money's recovered bank.
27:53Why? Because almost all digital rest matters,
27:56money goes via the banking channel.
27:58The bank cannot be allowed to say,
28:00hey guys, I'm a spectator, I don't know what happens.
28:03Sorry, it's your only account, you have to be responsible.
28:06Absolutely, I completely agree with you and Jitin on this one.
28:11Banks cannot say...
28:13One last point.
28:14Not the bank...
28:15As long as the language is civil, Jitin.
28:18That's my only request.
28:19You know, it's a family channel.
28:20The bank which receives the money should be liable.
28:21Just keep the language civil.
28:23Yes.
28:24No, no, I'm saying the bank,
28:25not the bank which sends the money,
28:27but the bank which receives the money
28:29should be held responsible.
28:30Absolutely.
28:31Because they are the ones who have not done the KYC properly,
28:33they are the ones where money disappears,
28:35with the collision of some banking employees.
28:37And let me bring in Mr. Ashok Kumar.
28:38That's a very pertinent point that is being made.
28:40You know, while we put the entire onus on the victim,
28:43and yes, the victims have to be smarter,
28:45there are no two ways about it.
28:47But what about the banking system?
28:49In the instance that I dealt with personally in one instance,
28:53how could the bank let the money go?
28:55The bank manager, you know, should be held accountable.
28:58Should they not be held accountable, sir?
29:00Mr. Ashok Kumar.
29:02You are on mute, sir.
29:06Yes, you are very much right.
29:10They should be held accountable because banks and telecom sector,
29:14both have a major role to play.
29:16RBI brought tight guidelines.
29:18After that, the government banks have done little better.
29:22But private banks still, you know, continue with their old ways.
29:25So they need to be tightened and our investigation agencies need to arrest them also,
29:29fix their responsibility.
29:31Same is the case with telecom sector.
29:33Telecom sector can identify easily all these calls.
29:37Fraud calls, fake calls.
29:39Nowadays, they are sending messages also, spam calls.
29:42So, both these sectors, banking and telecom, they need to, you know, in the name of doing big business,
29:49they are just ignoring all these things.
29:51Absolutely.
29:53And rest to bank managers, Mr. Vineet Kumar,
29:55next time this happens in an account with a senior citizen,
29:57when money is transferred.
29:59Unless, of course, the senior citizen himself is giving the OTP and getting that money out,
30:03then perhaps the bank can say, not our responsibility.
30:05But what about the receiving bank?
30:07You know, how quickly this transaction goes?
30:09I want to understand from you the challenges that you face, Mr. Kumar.
30:13Gauru, let me add something from what Jitain said.
30:21I'll slightly disagree with that because I'll come to your question slightly later.
30:27Let me clarify that what you said about having WhatsApp number and genuine SIM in that.
30:33So, if you are not having genuine SIM in your phone and yet you are using WhatsApp,
30:38then the government of India has planned to stop this thing which is going on for long.
30:44So, I believe that's not, that is something which has to be done
30:48because what we see in our experience is people have been using WhatsApp for both investment
30:57as well as digital fraud because victims are being contacted on video calls.
31:02They are being scared on video calls by having a so-called police office or a court of law, something like that.
31:10So, and the SIM is found to be in India.
31:13But whereas the WhatsApp has been activated and being used from outside India from some other country.
31:20So, we are not able to catch.
31:22So, that is how we should be having this SIM.
31:27The WhatsApp should not, or for that matter, any social media should not run without SIM being in the phone.
31:32And second thing which Mr. Dougal talked about, liability of the banks, I absolutely agree.
31:40There have been instances where banks have been not, they have not done their KYC up to the mark.
31:48Yes.
31:49And so that the criminals are able to get away.
31:52And money moving very fast is also a question which has to be looked into
31:57because some kind of due diligence has to be done.
32:00Otherwise, funds will keep on moving from one layer to another
32:04and it would be really difficult for police to check that kind of movement.
32:08So, that can only be done by the banks and bank has to, one day or the other, bank will have to take this responsibility.
32:14Okay.
32:15There are other instances that we have.
32:16Before I come to more case studies, I want you to take a look at this case study.
32:21We have to call them from the telecom authorities at first and then we have to close the bar of the bank.
32:28We have to ask if we are going to close the bar of the bank.
32:32Then we have to ask if we are going to close the bank to the bank.
32:36We have to ask if we are going to close the bank.
32:38Then we have to buy a SIM in Bombay Dr. Radha Manprashat.
32:44We have said that we are going to be living there, so why would we go there?
32:49We have said that it is not.
32:51Your name is a fire law in Bombay,
32:56and you have a relationship with Jet Airways with Narish Goyal.
33:02You have got money from that,
33:05and you have opened a account in Canra Bank in Mumbai.
33:10After that, he kept my phone in surveillance,
33:15and he would call me a video on WhatsApp,
33:20three or four nights,
33:22and at the end of the evening,
33:24when we were on the phone,
33:27he was on 24 hours,
33:30even at night, he would say to keep it on.
33:33If it is closed at night,
33:35he said, why did you cut the phone?
33:38We saw that the phone was done,
33:41so why don't you charge the phone?
33:43They used to put the phone in charge.
33:45Everything in the evening, in the evening,
33:48both good night, good morning,
33:50I was doing this for everything.
33:53And we said that you are good.
33:56Yes, it is okay.
33:58You will not say anything about this.
34:00and there is no one,
34:01you will not take your son,
34:02or he will be punished for his punishment.
34:03You are on your own,
34:05or you will have to eat the water in jail,
34:07then we said that on Sunday,
34:09at 25-day so that day,
34:11he will pay about zero or more at $90,000,00.
34:15Mr. Kumar, highly educated doctors, both husband and wife are doctors, in a very well-to-do
34:26environment and they lost crores to this digital arrest.
34:31What would one say to a situation like this, Mr. Kumar?
34:36Again Gaurav, the same thing, that I'll add one more thing here, apart from being aware
34:42and if something like this happens, reporting to local police, the nearest police station
34:47because the local police would know about this modus operandi.
34:52They exploit this particular fact that the protesters deliberately say that you should
34:59not be discussing about all these things with anyone, otherwise they'll be arrested.
35:03This is the way of dissuading them from discussing the matter at hand with someone who could actually
35:09spill the bin and the fraud would stop at its track.
35:14So one more thing would be done is like, as the Honourable Prime Minister says about cyber
35:22frauds, that RUKO, SOCHO are fear action law.
35:27We should stop, think and then take action.
35:30So the moment we get a call, something like this happens, we get a call that your Aadhaar
35:36number or your bank account or your phone number is linked to terror funding, money laundering.
35:41So we should stop and think deeply about it rather than getting overwrought with the strategies
35:48or the techniques employed by the protesters.
35:51And then take action.
35:52So I think one will be able to save himself or herself from that.
35:54Okay.
35:55So, Kumar, I want to for a moment refer to that case that we referred to in the beginning
35:59of this broadcast of a top former IPS officer in Punjab, an officer of the rank of Inspector
36:07General of Police, and that of course is different from digital arrest.
36:11That's a case of, is it cyber fraud?
36:13Is it getting duped online?
36:15Is it a Ponzi scheme that you fall victim to, you know, because police deal with crime
36:20every day.
36:21How can a police officer fall victim to this, in your view?
36:27Again, it is very surprising for me also.
36:30How can an IG rank officer not understand the games of being played by these cyber protesters?
36:36And I don't know why there is some kind of fear in such mind that if they are doing something,
36:42maybe they fear like something wrong they are doing, that's why they get trapped.
36:45But still, as a police officer, you should have known that there is nothing like this.
36:51He has done, he has done nothing wrong.
36:53Then, then what we, what the, what can they do?
36:57What the criminals can do?
36:58When we are responding to them, only then they make money.
37:01Only then they bring you under fear.
37:04You know, we need not respond to them.
37:06This police officer should have known that.
37:08I am very surprised.
37:10He kept putting in more money, perhaps expecting better returns, Mr. Dugal.
37:15And there are instances of former top IES officers, IPS officers, technocrats.
37:21You know, there is no concept of digital arrest, everybody knows that.
37:25But even these Ponzi schemes that may come, will double your money, will triple your money.
37:30Is that greed that makes people fall victim to this?
37:33That, you know, invest more to get more returns.
37:35And when people ask you for your OTP, as a rule, shouldn't you not share OTP with anyone?
37:44Well, I think, Gaurav, post-COVID-19, two elements have become an integral part of our lives.
37:50One is fear and the other one is panic.
37:52And both of them have resulted in people getting more greedy.
37:56Consequently, they are all falling to these kinds of Ponzi schemes.
38:00I recently did a case of another gentleman who lost his entire life savings running into crores of rupees because he was being promised 16% per week return as compared to a 7% or 8% in FDR.
38:13And consequently, he'd liquidated all his FDRs and mutual funds and put them in these Ponzi schemes only to lose them over.
38:20I think the message is loud and clear.
38:23We will have to be suspicious of everything that we see.
38:26Till such time, we don't independently authenticate the veracity or the correctness of the same.
38:32And number two, we need to be stingy.
38:34Stingy about how we share our information.
38:36And information needs to be shared on a need-to-know basis only.
38:39That's the only way going forward.
38:41Otherwise, we'll continue to start getting duped by these new innovative kinds of cyber frauds and cyber crimes.
38:47And it becomes very difficult to detect them, Jitin, also because a lot of these cyber criminals are transnational, operating from beyond the country's borders, using encrypted end-to-end systems.
39:00Take, for example, that case in Varansi where a former senior IIS officer lost lakhs, close to 50 lakhs.
39:10Somebody pretending to be a CBI officer called.
39:12Then there was this instance of a former ONGC employee in Kolkata who was kept under digital arrest, lost 99 lakhs.
39:19So, you know, how does one ensure that you don't fall victim to this?
39:26Gaurav, only one thing will work, which is stringent telecom and banking KYC.
39:32I was speaking about this from the last two years.
39:33And I'll tell you why I oppose this WhatsApp being linked to the same thing.
39:37Let's assume you have done it for the entire population.
39:41One, tell me how many number of cases of Sinswap frauds in India today?
39:44And how many have them been solved?
39:45So, suppose if somebody does a Sinswap fraud with Gaurav Savant, right now at least you have access to your WhatsApp to receive OTPs from your friends.
39:53With this, what will happen, within an hour, somebody else will be able to access all the OTPs of your email accounts and, you know, social media accounts also because all of them are now sending OTPs on WhatsApp.
40:04All major social media companies and telecom companies are now shifting away from sending SMS-based OTPs to either two-factor on the app or WhatsApp.
40:14There is a reason.
40:14So, if the world is shifting, we are going, you know, backwards.
40:18It will create a bigger problem for everyone.
40:20I am not against surveillance.
40:21I understand that we need to pinpoint where a particular SIM is being operated upon.
40:25But there is a way to do it.
40:26Suppose if somebody gets reported on WhatsApp, if some number is reported, then you carry out a physical KYC check.
40:32That is okay.
40:33But if you randomly give a blanket order, I mean, you are trying to do something good.
40:36But in that, you know, the way you are doing it, you are creating much more bigger problems and a much more bigger ecosystem available for fraud for the fraudsters.
40:44This is my opposition today.
40:45Now, second, telecom operators and TRAI.
40:49These are white elephants you must now take to account.
40:51Tell me, there is this policy that, you know, all these big companies, banks and everyone will be having this 1600 number to be used for all customer care calls.
41:00Right now, in your studio, call up ATL or Vodafone.
41:03All the callbacks come from, again, random numbers which are random numbers.
41:06And half of them you can't even call back.
41:08So, if you do not find the telecom operator itself which is supposed to implement this security rules, then how do you expect people to get, you know, take all this, sorry to say the word gyan and implement and protect themselves?
41:18Mr. Kumar, I want to quickly bring you in on the aspect on banks.
41:24You know, when banks release money, wouldn't the banks also have to know where this money is going?
41:32Should we ensure that per OTP only X amount of money can be released so that even if there's a fraud, it is X amount and not more than X amount?
41:41Would we have to put more systems in place?
41:45Yes, Gaurav.
41:45I believe banks need to do better due diligence.
41:51When they are, suddenly there is a lot of influx of funds in newly opened account which would not have any history of major transactions before, banks will be alerted again.
42:02And then when the speed with which money comes, the same thing happens when the money goes out.
42:09So, banks just cannot wash its hands and say that nothing could be done.
42:14I think if banks are able to do proper due diligence, money can be stopped in the tracks.
42:20Okay.
42:20I have the last two minutes on this part of the show.
42:22Tell me three steps that you want Indians to take in 2026 to keep their money safe.
42:28Mr. Kumar, I begin with you.
42:30Three steps that every Indian must take.
42:35I'll say I'll go by what Honorable Prime Minister says.
42:39Stop, think and then take action.
42:42Okay.
42:43Stop, think, then take action.
42:44Don't take action in a hurry.
42:46Mr. Duggal, three steps.
42:47First step, let's learn to be conjuiced and be extremely stingy with sharing our information.
42:56Number two, please, the moment anything, fear or panic comes in, in any conversation, disconnect.
43:03And finally, adopt cyber security as a way of life.
43:06That's the only way that's going to save you in the coming times.
43:09Okay.
43:09Jitin, three steps.
43:10Quickly.
43:11First, put a limit of online banking on your bank account so that under duress also you're
43:16not able to make any changes and transfer money.
43:18Second, let's, as a society, cultivate this habit of not giving our personal mobile numbers
43:23and email IDs on shopping mall shops for bills.
43:26This is where the data gets leaked.
43:27Third, any suspense or suspicion, call police.
43:32There is no harm in calling and seeking advice, even if the call turns out to be genuine.
43:38Call them and verify.
43:39And always call back the number who's calling you from.
43:41Just do not receive on the incoming call.
43:43Fair enough.
43:44Sonam, aapke hesaabseek, teen kadam, joh uthane chahiya, or police ko bhi bilkul abhi.
43:51Sir, sabse pahle toh police ko turannt action lena chahiya.
43:55Sabse pahle.
43:57Definitely.
43:58Sab, mere, haamari case mein toh yehi kahenghe.
44:00Hamara toh, matlab, mani se bhi jada loss hua hai.
44:03Which cannot be recovered.
44:05Definitely.
44:05Toh police turannt is chis pe action lena.
44:10Cyber crime, matlab, cyber cell mein phone jah rhey hain.
44:13Woh bataate hain ki doodoh tien-tien mehenne ka waiting ho ta hai.
44:17That could be, matlab, that should be on the, matlab, in bilkul initiat level pe is ka action ho na chahiye.
44:23Or definitely joh log yeh kar rahe hai hain hume turannt se turannt un logoko matlab pakarna chahiye ta ki future mein yeh chijje na ho ho koi apna koi kisi ka loss na ho.
44:35Thiek.
44:37Mr. Kumar, you want to quickly respond.
44:39How can things be speeded up for victims so that they get access to justice quickly, sir?
44:44I, my three steps are firstly what, why, when, where, how.
44:49These questions everyone should put on any such call.
44:52Kyon arye hai, kaha se arye, kishle arye, what can be done, etc.
44:55So we need to be inquisitive.
44:57Secondly, we need to increase the cyber capacity of police, all the state police, because they are overloaded and that's why they don't attend to many of these cases.
45:07And thirdly, we need to tighten the grip on banking and telecom sector to the extent of criminal liability.
45:15That is the only solution.
45:17Otherwise, this will keep on increasing.
45:19Very, very pertinent points made on this broadcast.
45:22And I want to thank all our guests for joining me here on this India Today special broadcast.
45:27Remember, the first step starts with you.
45:31You need to take steps as an individual.
45:35Ensure you don't give out your OTPs unless you've verified who you're giving out your OTPs to.
45:41In case anyone says that it's a cyber arrest or words to that effect, disconnect that call immediately.
45:47Put certain restrictions on the kind of fund flow from your account.
45:52And keep in touch with your family, your bank and the police.
45:55The moment you suspect something wrong, reach out to the police, reach out to a lawyer, reach out to your friends, reach out to the bank instantly.
46:03And for the government, the government needs to do a lot more to ensure the citizens are safer from these cyber frauds.
46:12Whether it's the banks or the telecom regulatory authority, regulate more to ensure we are safe from transnational cyber crime.
46:21That is all I have for you on this India Today special broadcast.
46:24Many thanks for watching.
46:25Have a wonderful 2026.
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