- 3 hours ago
This special report investigates the significant rise of 'digital arrest' cyber scams in India, a fraudulent scheme with severe consequences. The program details how criminals impersonate law enforcement officials, using psychological manipulation to extort money, which in one case, led to a victim's suicide. Cyber security experts and police officers explain the sophisticated methods employed by fraudsters, such as fake arrest warrants and video surveillance, to create fear. The report clarifies that 'digital arrest' is a fabricated concept and that government agencies do not conduct arrests via video calls. It highlights crucial advice for citizens, including disconnecting suspicious calls and reporting incidents to the national cyber crime helpline number 1930. Furthermore, the discussion addresses the need for systemic changes in the banking sector, advocating for stricter liability, biometric KYC, and measures to prevent the use of 'mule accounts' for money laundering.
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00:00The cyber criminals are highly organized. They operate from safe havens beyond the country's borders.
00:05They have VPNs, that's remote access, bulletproof hosting, end-to-end encryption that complicates lawful interception.
00:14So how can you and your money stay safe?
00:17Because projections indicate India could face up to 1 trillion cyber attacks annually by 2023, by 2033 and 17 trillion by 2047.
00:27So what are long-term strategic investments in technology that we need to do?
00:32Or international partnerships, public-private collaboration?
00:36What can you do to keep your money safe?
00:39We have both victims of cyber fraud, cyber security experts and police officers with us on this special broadcast.
00:46Joining me on India First is Sonam Shivare.
00:48Sonam sadly lost her father to a cyber crime.
00:53Also with us is Vineet Kumar. He's DCP Cyber Security.
00:57In Delhi Police with us is also Jitin Jain. He's a cyber security expert.
01:02Pawan Duggal is a cyber law advocate and analyst.
01:08Sonam, I want to begin by asking you, Sonam,
01:11what happened with your father?
01:13Why did he take his own knowledge and how he came in the report?
01:17Why did he take his own knowledge?
01:18Sir, last month 20th, he had the first call that you had a terror fund.
01:27He had the application of the 21st of the crime branch.
01:33But I don't know, due to some reasons, he was going to submit.
01:37He was going to submit, but at the same time, he had a call that we had told him,
01:43and then he talked to him one hour.
01:46And after that, he didn't submit the application that he was going to submit to the crime branch.
01:52After that, when we opened the phone, we saw a video call, a voice call.
02:00Then he had a signal app, which was going to be trapped,
02:05and he had a track of activities.
02:09He had no idea how psychological his father was going to be molest.
02:14That he had no share with anyone.
02:17And he was a advocate.
02:19He had read, read, read, read, the law.
02:22He had definitely aware.
02:24He had an application that he had written.
02:26He had submitted to the crime branch.
02:28But for this reason, the application has said that I'm going to submit to the 21st to 140, and they have a call immediately.
02:39That means that their phone is recorded, and they have 1 hour talked about it.
02:44After that, they didn't submit the application.
02:47We got the application for the 25th, when the police checked our parents' documents.
02:54Now, we got to know that Papa has also written the application.
02:58They have been so molestated by Papa, so that they didn't have any discussion.
03:06They are aware of how they are being trapped, how they work, and today they have been a month.
03:13The police's side of the police...
03:17Your father was a deputy who was a digital arrest.
03:21These cyber criminals.
03:23How did they contact us?
03:25Who were those people?
03:27How did they get to the digital arrest?
03:30This is the police's job.
03:32How can we do it?
03:34Today is the one month.
03:35Last month, the last 24th.
03:37Today has been a month.
03:39But the police is not aware of which they are doing,
03:42or what they are doing.
03:44They have not done anything in this case.
03:48Let me bring in our experts on this.
03:53Mr. Kumar, as DCP of Cybercell, would something like this have been preventable?
04:02He is an advocate, educated, knows the law, and yet falls victim to a digital arrest.
04:10Yes, Gaurav.
04:11I believe this can be prevented.
04:15But only if people are aware of the modus operandi of cyber criminals.
04:21If they understand what is digital arrest, there is nothing like digital arrest in law of land.
04:28Police would not do something like this generally.
04:32If somebody is scaring someone on phone, that he or she has been involved in terror funding, money laundering,
04:42then we'll have to take that with a pinch of salt.
04:45So, I believe awareness would be the key for this.
04:49Only awareness can prevent something like this.
04:51And that's exactly why on India today, we're carrying out these exercises,
04:55and routinely bringing out these stories for everyone to see.
05:00Sonam, you said to your father,
05:02who also called him,
05:04that the terror attack in the first place,
05:07that he has funded funding.
05:09Who has said anything?
05:10Do you know anything?
05:11The mobile number, where the phone calls came from.
05:14Who has downloaded the app?
05:16No knowledge.
05:17What happened?
05:18No knowledge.
05:19No knowledge.
05:20The police told me that the number is probably in Delhi and Assam.
05:25And now there are activities that are still going on.
05:29But still,
05:30they have not taken action on them.
05:34What are they waiting for?
05:36It's been a month.
05:37At least,
05:38these things should happen immediately.
05:41How did you know that you had told them that you had to leave the house of terror funding?
05:46They've written about it?
05:48Yes, they have written about it.
05:50They have written about it.
05:51They can share the application.
05:52They can share them.
05:54What kind of use was it?
05:56They were attached to it?
05:58They were attached to it.
05:59They were attached to it.
06:01They were attached to it.
06:03They were attached to it.
06:04They were talking about it.
06:06They were saying they were molest.
06:07My father was actually very social worker.
06:09They were always socially involved.
06:12So,
06:13they were not able to do that.
06:15They were saying they are anti-terrorists.
06:18They have a fake NIA Supreme Court arrest warrant.
06:24And a property seized warrant for my father.
06:28These are all the things.
06:30Yes.
06:31When the phone opened,
06:32we got to know these things.
06:34Mr. Ashok Kumar is former DGP of Uttarakhand.
06:37He's someone who's written extensively and dealt with cyber crime very extensively.
06:42Sir, wonderful having you on the show.
06:44But I want to understand from you,
06:46if somebody gets a phone call that says,
06:48you, I'm calling from the NIA or I'm calling from CBI or Enforcement Directorate or Customs
06:54and you're involved in this fraud,
06:55you funded Pahlgaam terror attack or words to that effect and your property will be seized.
07:00What should an individual do?
07:03Thanks, Kaurav.
07:05Firstly, let me tell you,
07:07these kind of cyber crimes happen because of fear, greed or curiosity.
07:13So, if you have done nothing wrong, why do you fear?
07:17The most important thing is there is nothing like digital arrest at all.
07:21There is nothing like digital arrest.
07:22It is all a fraud, all a fake thing.
07:25All creation of criminals.
07:27No police will do digital arrest with you.
07:30So, this awareness needs to be spread to everyone.
07:33That it is all fake.
07:35Nobody will send you the digital arrest warrant and you are arrested digitally.
07:38It is totally fake thing.
07:40This needs to be understood.
07:42And the unfortunate, most unfortunate thing is that even the lawyers, the police officers,
07:48who should know everything about law, they also get trapped.
07:52That means there is something they are worrying about.
07:55You know, they fear something.
07:57Otherwise, why, if you have done nothing wrong, let them,
08:00how can they connect you with the funding of a terrorist attack?
08:04You have done nothing wrong.
08:05Be clear in your conscience.
08:07So, and you should realize that all these are cyber frauds.
08:11Well, drugs are not done.
08:12Now, they have started taking the terror funding and all.
08:15So, there is pure and pure cyber fraud.
08:19Okay.
08:20Mr. Dugal, clearly this isn't an isolated case.
08:22What should Sonam's father, who was an advocate by profession, educated, knows the law,
08:30could he have done something differently?
08:32Because the number of cases are going up exponentially.
08:36It's almost like an explosion every year, the attempts that are being made every day now.
08:41Well, as a lawyer, he would have been very much familiar with the legal framework.
08:46So, first thing I would have expected him to have done is to disconnect.
08:50Now, he chose not to disconnect and chose because of FOMO, fear of missing out,
08:55to continue the conversation was the reason why he landed up in this new spiral vortex.
09:02The fact remains is that as a lawyer, you know, the law only requires arrest in the physical format.
09:09Even if the Bharati Niai Sanita has come in, it does not really authorize the use of technology for the purposes of arresting.
09:16So, that's something that should have been there.
09:19But please remember, we are all talking about academic concepts.
09:23When it comes on to you, you lose your objectivity.
09:26You become subjective.
09:27You either believe that you are likely to lose something, or you are likely to be facing consequences.
09:32So, as a lawyer who was threatened with the fact that he could be connected with money laundering in terrorism cases on Pelgam,
09:39that could have been one triggering factor while he would have continued this exercise.
09:44But I think we have to have a lesson learned from this.
09:48Number one, come what may, whatever happens, tomorrow morning there still will be a new day, the sun will still rise.
09:54Number two, come what may, the power of disconnection needs to be exercised like a brahmastra by every person.
10:02The moment you get a tinkling of the fact that somebody is trying to put you in fear or panic,
10:08or someone is trying to force you to do something in an urgent space of time when you don't want to do that,
10:14is an indication that this is not going right.
10:16The best is to disconnect.
10:18And even if you have lost some money, no problem.
10:21The important issue is you have to ask yourself, what exactly did I do wrong?
10:25And what I need to ensure I don't do again in order to avoid becoming victim of a cybercrime.
10:30That's a very pertinent point.
10:32That's a very pertinent point to make.
10:34And Mr. Vineet Kumar, as DCP Cyber Cell Delhi,
10:38is that the brahmastra every Indian must adopt, disconnect, the moment you get such a call?
10:45Absolutely, Gaurav, absolutely. I can't agree more.
10:48We should not be talking to these cyber foresters.
10:52The moment we realize that somebody is trying to scare us, we should disconnect.
10:56And also the fact that if something like this happens, if some kind of fear goes in the mind of the victim,
11:03then he or she can always report to the nearest police station, explain what is happening,
11:10talk to their friends and family members, and also they may just call on 1930, which is National Cyber Helpline.
11:171930.
11:19Yes, yes. I'll repeat it.
11:21We're putting that out on your television screen also.
11:231930.
11:25If there is any cyber fraud, you suspect cyber fraud, give out that number, make that call, and disconnect.
11:32Am I right, sir?
11:33Yes, yes, Gaurav, very much.
11:35If these things are done, then I'm sure one will be able to prevent himself or herself from being the victim of cyber fraud.
11:42Jit and Jain, often do we make the mistake of not contacting family members?
11:48So, you know, this isn't an isolated case.
11:50There are other instances that we'll be referring to.
11:52Because for the... I can't understand how a senior police officer or a senior IES officer...
11:59I mean, IES officers, you make policy for our country.
12:01How can you fall victim to cyber fraud?
12:04And it's happened, we've got a number of cases that we'll be talking about.
12:07Is the government doing enough to sensitize people?
12:10You know, get a call, disconnect.
12:12Why do people even engage, Jitin?
12:15You're on mute.
12:20Okay, unmute yourself, sir.
12:23Yeah, are you able to hear me now?
12:25Strength five, go on, sir.
12:27Yeah, so, Gaurav, we've had multiple debates on digital arrests and cyber frauds on India Today channel itself.
12:32There are four things we must now keep in mind.
12:35A, let's stop calling them cyber frauds, because this has gone beyond frauds, beyond, you know, the money hees.
12:41This is now taking away lives.
12:43This is now getting into this modest operandi of this Chinese loan apps, where students are committing suicide because they were unable to pay.
12:49Now you're seeing senior citizens who have paid money and are still committing suicide because of social stigma,
12:54because of, you know, the public image, the public image being targeted and destroyed in public.
13:00And so this is one.
13:02Two, I think the messaging, what you're saying, we have to make people aware.
13:08I slightly disagree because I think, who do you want to make aware?
13:12The most aware are now the ones who are becoming victims.
13:15Indian Today journalists became a victim of digital fraud last year.
13:18I think we did a show on that with Rahul.
13:20You have seen senior police, setting police officers, IPS officers falling prey to it.
13:25Retired ones, retired EGPs.
13:27You've seen civil servants, you've seen now lawyers.
13:29So I think when it comes to, you know, their storytelling, I think their messaging is more powerful than your awareness messaging.
13:37The way they are able to manipulate a human mind, especially senior citizens telling them that their loved ones are caught in some drug issue in a foreign country and they need to pay money immediately.
13:46Or they have ordered some, you know, drug parcel or their SIM card is being issued on their name, which is used for terror calling and, you know, terror communications.
13:53Or their bank accounts are being used for terror financing.
13:56So, fair enough.
13:57No, but I think every instance needs to be brought out, Jitin.
14:00No, I think every instance needs to be brought out.
14:02Every instance.
14:03I mean, it's not that this won't do and that won't do.
14:05I disagree with you.
14:06Just 60 seconds.
14:07But I want other instances.
14:08Just 60 seconds.
14:09I want other instances out in public domain.
14:11Listen in.
14:12Listen in to one more instance that's coming out.
14:14One more instance that's coming out.
14:16How a senior citizen lost his entire life saving.
14:20Listen in.
14:21Whatever means.
14:22If you don't know what to say about the whole world.
14:23Well, I don't know how to go along the street.
14:27A sign of the 3 of October.
14:28Just a phone.
14:29That's when I got out.
14:30I felt like a Mac.
14:31An upper ьк╜ of a doctor.
14:32I got her.
14:33I got up.
14:34I should go.
14:35I wish I had to go.
14:36Better, please.
14:37Just a moment.
14:38King of the time.
14:39A number of news, I was like, oh, no, no.
14:40I should be able to do it.
14:41It's a family.
14:42I don't have the best.
14:43I do.
14:44To be, I don't have one.
14:45I do.
14:46The other one, the information is,
14:47there's not going to tell me,
14:48so, my son has helped me personally
14:49foreign
15:03foreign
15:19I don't want to tell anyone in the situation.
15:21In the Supreme Court, this case is happening and the national security case is happening.
15:26This is why you want to tell children or someone else.
15:30You will stay here and you don't want to tell anyone.
15:35I used to sit 24 hours in front of them.
15:38I used to sit here.
15:40I used to go to the bathroom.
15:42I used to go to the bathroom.
15:44I used to go to the bathroom.
15:47I used to go to the bathroom.
15:49I used to go to the bathroom.
15:51Mr. Vineet Kumar, this gentleman is a retired engineer by profession.
15:58He is now having to borrow money even to have dialysis done.
16:03And yet, somebody called him up and said that there is money laundering.
16:07You are allegedly involved in it.
16:09You will be arrested or you give us this kind of money.
16:12For the life of me, I can't understand why would somebody fall victim
16:16to such kind of phone calls.
16:18Can you explain that, sir?
16:19See, Gaurav, look at what he said.
16:22Look closely, listen to what the victim says.
16:25He is saying that they have isolated him.
16:28Literally in the sense that he should not be talking to anyone about it.
16:31This is the typical modus operandi where one would not come to know what is happening to him.
16:38The victim is keeping everything to himself.
16:41So this is how they build this wave of deceit and fraud.
16:46The victim will not be able to talk to anyone.
16:49He will not be able to understand.
16:50So he is only being fed the element of fear in his mind.
16:55So that is how he would be acting something like this.
16:58No, but then what should somebody do?
17:00Keep in touch with members of your family, Mr. Ashok Kumar.
17:03Because often children are not staying with elderly parents.
17:06And elderly parents, they fear the worst.
17:09They fear the worst.
17:10Communication with loved ones is very less.
17:13And often elderly don't even listen to their children.
17:17I know of an instance where, you know, the son told the father,
17:21this is fraud, don't fall for it.
17:23And yet the old man fell for it.
17:25What would you make of these instances, sir?
17:28Firstly, I would say that the country needs to know
17:32that there is nothing like digital arrest.
17:35Digital arrest is a total fake drama.
17:38The whole country, if they know, they will cut the phone immediately.
17:41They are telling you that you are arrested digitally.
17:44I am sitting a police officer, CBI officer, ED officer.
17:47That's what they are doing.
17:49So if you know that there is nothing like this in law.
17:51No ED, no CBI, no police, no NIA is going to arrest you at home like this digitally.
17:58So we need to cut the phone.
18:00As Pohan Dukalji said, we can even do it in between.
18:03If you've lost some money, 10 lakhs, 5 lakhs, 10,000, 50 lakhs.
18:07In between also you can cut it off and get out of it.
18:10It is total fake.
18:12Then you should talk to your family, you should talk to your friends,
18:16you should talk to the police.
18:17That is what needs to be done.
18:19Why are you so much worried?
18:21It is some kind of fear that is inside you that you get trapped,
18:25you get hypnotized, you get worried.
18:27So this is the thing that is required.
18:29Is it also greed?
18:31Is it also greed in some instances, you know, where people promise you double the money?
18:37But I'll come to that instance, you know, in a moment.
18:39Jitin, you were nodding, you were disagreeing with Mr. Ashok Kumar on disconnecting instantly.
18:45What part of it are you disagreeing with, sir?
18:48No, no, I am not disagreeing, Gaurav.
18:50These are all good glands we should give.
18:52I think we are all becoming part of the Delhi debates.
18:54We are not understanding that by giving these, you know, things which are not working,
18:58we are further victimizing the prospective victims.
19:00I think we should look what we can do to, you know, kill the solution at the very bottom.
19:05It's a problem at the very bottom itself.
19:06And for that, there is only one solution.
19:09The nucleus of this entire murder sovereignty is fraud, fraud for money.
19:13And the money is not being snatched away on the broad daylight by taking away cash or doing some robbery.
19:19It is transferred digitally in a bank account, in a conventional banking ecosystem.
19:23How can money disappear?
19:24And that is where I think we have to figure out that instead of giving these sermons off to WhatsApp that
19:29without a SIM, WhatsApp, so that fraud will become less.
19:33These are all crap, you know, crappy ideas just to satisfy some public opinion.
19:37What you should do, that every bank account has to have a biometric KYC.
19:41Every cash withdrawal, beyond a certain amount, has to have a physical, biometric verification.
19:46You freeze the money from cash withdrawal, you freeze the money in banking ecosystem,
19:51everything will fall into place.
19:53How can there be a situation where 5,000 bank accounts are being used as new accounts without any KYC?
19:58You ask WhatsApp to have a SIM in the mobile phone, otherwise WhatsApp will not work.
20:03But you don't want a bank manager to check the physical, biometric KYC when millions have been withdrawn on the banks.
20:08That's a very pertinent point, Mr. Duggal.
20:10That's a very pertinent point.
20:12Because when money is transferred from one account to the other, and then the police said that's just a mule account.
20:18And from there it goes to 30 other accounts, which may be on phone pay or Paytm and then it's instantly withdrawn.
20:26It would show a very wide network.
20:28How can that be checked?
20:31The Reserve Bank of India can play a pioneering role in this regard.
20:35If you are able to tighten the news on the banks, make them responsible that the moment unauthorized payment goes from one account to the other,
20:45the bank will be liable and can be liable to pay the money back.
20:48It only will be an extension of the RBI notification of 6th of July 2017, which talked of a zero liability for customers.
20:55Here also, in digital rest, we are landing up losing a lot of money.
20:59In my book, the recent book that's come online, Frauds and Law, I've argued that if the RBI can actually take a very strong stand,
21:07then we will be able to cover a big chunk of this money's recovered bank.
21:12Why? Because almost all digital rest matters, money goes via the banking channel.
21:17The bank cannot be allowed to say, hey guys, I'm a spectator. I don't know what happens. Sorry.
21:22Absolutely.
21:23It's your own mule account. You have to be responsible.
21:25Absolutely. I completely agree with you and Jitin on this one.
21:30Banks cannot sayтАж
21:31One last point. Not the bankтАж
21:33As long as the language is civil, Jitin. That's my only request.
21:37You know, it's a family channel. Just keep the language civil.
21:41Yes.
21:42No, no. I'm saying the bank, not the bank which sends the money, but the bank which receives the money, should be held responsible.
21:49Absolutely.
21:50Because they are the ones who have not done the KYC properly.
21:52They are the ones when the money disappears with the collision of some banking employees.
21:55And let me bring in Mr. Ashok Kumar. That's a very pertinent point that is being made.
21:59You know, while we put the entire onus on the victim, and yes, the victims have to be smarter, there are no two ways about it.
22:05But what about the banking system? In the instance that I dealt with personally in one instance, how could the bank let the money go?
22:14The bank manager, you know, should be held accountable. Should they not be held accountable, sir? Mr. Ashok Kumar.
22:24You are on mute, sir.
22:25Yes, you are very much right. They should be held accountable because banks and telecom sector both have a major role to play.
22:35RBI brought tight guidelines. After that, the government banks have done little better. But private banks still, you know, continue with their old ways.
22:44So they need to be tightened and our investigation agencies need to arrest them also, fix their responsibility.
22:50Same is the case with telecom sector. Telecom sector can identify easily all these calls, the fraud calls, fake calls.
22:58Nowadays, they are sending messages also, spam calls. So both these sectors, banking and telecom, they need to, you know, in the name of doing big business, they are just ignoring all these things.
23:09Absolutely. And rest to bank managers, Mr. Vineet Kumar, next time this happens in an account with a senior citizen when money is transferred.
23:17Unless, of course, the senior citizen himself is giving the OTP and getting that money out, then perhaps the bank can say, not our responsibility.
23:24But what about the receiving bank? You know, how quickly this transaction goes? I want to understand from you the challenges that you face, Mr. Kumar.
23:32Gauru, let me add something from what Jiten said. I'll slightly disagree with that because I'll come to your question slightly later.
23:45Let me clarify that what you said about having WhatsApp number and genuine SIM in that.
23:52If you are not having genuine SIM in your phone and yet you are using WhatsApp, then the Government of India has planned to stop this thing which is going on.
24:01So I believe that's not, that is something which has to be done because what we see in our experience is people have been using WhatsApp for both investment as well as digital fraud.
24:16Because victims are being contacted on video calls. They are being scared on video calls by having a so-called police office or a court of law, something like that.
24:28So, and the SIM is found to be in India.
24:33But whereas the WhatsApp has been activated and being used from outside India from some other country.
24:38So we are not able to catch. So that is how we should be having this SIM.
24:45The WhatsApp should not, or for that matter, any social media should not run without SIM being in the phone.
24:51And second thing which Mr. Dougal talked about, liability of the banks, I absolutely agree.
24:59There have been instances where banks have been not, they have not done their KYC up to the mark.
25:07Yes.
25:08And so that the criminals are able to get away.
25:10And money moving very fast is also a question which has to be looked into because some kind of due diligence has to be done.
25:19Otherwise funds will keep on moving from one layer to another and it would be really difficult for police to check that kind of movement.
25:26So that can only be done by the banks and bank has to, one day or the other bank will have to take this responsibility.
25:33Okay. There are other instances that we have. Before I come to more case studies, I want you to take a look at this case study.
25:40If we come to telecom authority department, I want you to close your SIM card after 2 hours.
25:53We asked us, if we are going to close, what will he be doing?
25:56In Bombay, Dr. Radha Munprashad has been sent, received a SIM.
26:02We have said that we are going to be living there, so why would we go there?
26:07So we have said that we are not.
26:09And in your name of Bombay Thana, there is a fire law in your name.
26:15And you have a relationship with Narish Goyal with Jet Airways.
26:20It means that you got money from that.
26:23And you have opened a account in Canra Bank in Mumbai.
26:28After that, we have kept my phone in surveillance.
26:34And we had a video call on WhatsApp.
26:39Three or four nights.
26:41And at the same time, when we were on the phone,
26:46he was on 24 hours.
26:49Even at night, he was on the phone.
26:52If it was closed at night,
26:54he said, why did you cut the phone?
26:56So, we saw that the phone was done.
27:00So, why don't you charge the phone?
27:02The phone was on the phone.
27:04Everything in the morning, in the evening,
27:06both good night, good morning,
27:08everything we were doing.
27:11And we were saying that you are good.
27:15Yes, it's okay.
27:17You don't have to say this.
27:19No one will say this.
27:20Not even with your son.
27:21Or it will be punishment.
27:22Or it will be punishment.
27:23Now, you are on the house.
27:24Or you will have to eat the air in jail.
27:25Or you will have to eat the air in jail.
27:26So, on Sunday, we went on 25th.
27:28So, that day,
27:30we had to collect about 80,000,000 rupees.
27:33Mr. Kumar, highly educated doctors,
27:39both husband and wife are doctors,
27:42in a very well-to-do environment,
27:45and they lost crores to this digital arrest.
27:48What would one say to a situation like this, Mr. Kumar?
27:51Again, Gaurav, the same thing.
27:56That, I'll add one more thing here.
27:59Apart from being aware,
28:00and if something like this happens,
28:02reporting to local police,
28:04the nearest police station,
28:05because the local police would know
28:08about this modus operandi.
28:10They exploit this particular fact
28:13that the protesters deliberately say
28:16that you should not be discussing
28:18about all these things with anyone.
28:20Otherwise, they'll be arrested.
28:21This is the way of dissuading them from
28:24discussing the matter at hand with someone
28:27who could actually spill the bin,
28:29and the fraud would stop at its track.
28:32So, one more thing would be done is like,
28:37as the Honorable Prime Minister says
28:39about cyber frauds,
28:41that RUKO, SOCHO are fear action law.
28:44We should stop, think, and then take action.
28:48So, the moment we get a call, something like this happens.
28:51We get a call that your Aadhaar number,
28:55or your bank account, or your phone number
28:57is linked to terror funding, money laundering.
28:59So, we should stop and think deeply about it,
29:02rather than getting overwrought with the strategies
29:05or the techniques employed by the protesters.
29:08Okay.
29:09And then take action.
29:10So, I think one will be able to save himself or herself from this.
29:13Okay.
29:14Mr. Ashok Kumar, I want to for a moment refer to that case
29:16that we referred to in the beginning of this broadcast
29:18of a top former IPS officer in Punjab.
29:23An officer of the rank of Inspector General of Police,
29:26and that, of course, is different from digital arrest.
29:29That's a case of, is it cyber fraud?
29:31Is it getting duped online?
29:33Is it a Ponzi scheme that you fall victim to?
29:36You know, because police deal with crime every day.
29:39How can a police officer fall victim to this, in your view?
29:44Again, it is very surprising for me also.
29:48How can an IG rank officer not understand the games
29:51of being played by these cyber protesters?
29:54And I don't know why there is some kind of fear in such mind
29:58that if they are doing something,
30:00maybe they fear like something wrong they are doing.
30:02That's why they get trapped.
30:03But still, as a police officer,
30:06he should have known that there is nothing like this.
30:09He has done nothing wrong.
30:11You know, then what can they do?
30:15What the criminals can do?
30:16When we are responding to them,
30:18only then they make money.
30:20Only then they bring you under fear.
30:22You know, we need not respond to them.
30:24This police officer should have known that.
30:26I am very surprised.
30:28He kept putting in more money,
30:29perhaps expecting better returns, Mr. Dugal.
30:32And there are instances of former top IES officers,
30:36IPS officers, technocrats.
30:38You know, there is no concept of digital arrest.
30:42Everybody knows that.
30:43But even these Ponzi schemes that may come,
30:45will double your money, will triple your money.
30:48Is that greed that makes people fall victim to this?
30:51That, you know, invest more to get more returns?
30:53And when people ask you for your OTP,
30:55as a rule, shouldn't you not share OTP with anyone?
31:01Well, I think, Gaurav, post-COVID-19,
31:06two elements have become an integral part of our lives.
31:09One is fear, and the other one is panic.
31:11And both of them have resulted in people getting more greedy.
31:14Consequently, they are all falling to these kinds of Ponzi schemes.
31:18I recently did a case of another gentleman
31:21who lost his entire life savings running into crores of rupees
31:25because he was being promised 16% per week return,
31:29as compared to a 7 or 8% in FDR.
31:31And consequently, he liquidated all his FDRs and mutual funds
31:36and put them in these Ponzi schemes only to lose them over.
31:39The message is loud and clear.
31:41We will have to be suspicious of everything that we see
31:45till such time we don't independently authenticate the veracity
31:48or the correctness of the same.
31:50And number two, we need to be stingy.
31:52Stingy about how we share our information.
31:54And information needs to be shared on a need-to-know basis only.
31:58That's the only way going forward.
31:59Otherwise, we'll continue to start getting duped
32:01by these new innovative kinds of cyber frauds and cyber crimes.
32:05And it becomes very difficult to detect them, Jitin.
32:08Also because a lot of these cyber criminals are transnational,
32:14operating from beyond the country's borders,
32:16using encrypted end-to-end systems.
32:19Take, for example, that case in Varansi
32:21where a former senior IIS officer lost lakhs.
32:26Close to 50 lakhs.
32:28Somebody pretending to be a CBI officer called.
32:31Then there was this instance of a former ONGC employee in Kolkata
32:34who was kept under digital arrest, lost 99 lakhs.
32:38So, you know, how does one ensure that you don't fall victim to this?
32:44Gaurav, only one thing will work, which is stringent telecom and banking KYC.
32:50I was speaking about this from the last two years.
32:52And I'll tell you why I oppose this WhatsApp being linked to the same thing.
32:56Let's assume you have done it for the entire population.
32:59One, tell me how many number of cases of SIN swap frauds in India today?
33:02And how many have been solved?
33:04So, suppose if somebody does a SIN swap fraud with Gaurav Savant,
33:08right now at least you have access to your WhatsApp to receive OTPs from your friends.
33:12With this, what will happen, within an hour,
33:14somebody else will be able to access all the OTPs of your email accounts
33:18and, you know, social media accounts also
33:20because all of them are now sending OTPs on WhatsApp.
33:22All major social media companies and telecom companies are now shifting away
33:27from sending SMS-based OTPs to either two-factor on the app or WhatsApp.
33:32There is a reason. So, if the world is shifting, we are going, you know, backwards.
33:36It will create a bigger problem for everyone.
33:39I am not against surveillance.
33:40I understand that we need to pinpoint where a particular SIM is being cooperated upon.
33:43But there is a way to do it.
33:45Suppose if somebody gets reported on WhatsApp, if some number is reported,
33:48then you carry out a physical KYC check. That is okay.
33:51But if you randomly give a blanket order, I mean, you're trying to do something good,
33:55but in that, you know, the way you're doing it, you create much more bigger problems
33:59and a much more bigger ecosystem available for fraud for the fraudsters.
34:02This is my opposition today.
34:04Now, second, telecom operators and TRAI.
34:07These are white elephants you must now take to account.
34:10Tell me, there is this policy that, you know, all these big companies, banks,
34:14and everyone will be having this 16000 number to be used for all customer care calls.
34:18Right now, in your studio, call up ATEN or Vodafone.
34:21All the callbacks come from, again, random numbers which are randline numbers.
34:24And half of them you can't even call back.
34:26So, if you do not find the telecom operator itself which is supposed to implement this security rules,
34:31then how do you expect people to get, you know, take all this, sorry to say the word gyan,
34:35and implement and protect themselves?
34:37Okay, Mr. Kumar, I want to quickly bring you in on the aspect on banks.
34:42You know, when banks release money, wouldn't the banks also have to know where this money is going?
34:50Should we ensure that per OTP only X amount of money can be released,
34:55so that even if there's a fraud, it is X amount and not more than X amount?
34:59Would we have to put more systems in place?
35:02Yes, Gaurav. I believe banks need to do better due diligence.
35:08When they are, suddenly there is a lot of influx of funds in a newly opened account,
35:14which would not have any history of major transactions before,
35:17banks will be alerted again.
35:20And then when the speed with which money comes,
35:24and the same thing happens when the money goes out.
35:27So, banks just cannot wash his hands and say that nothing could be done.
35:31I think if banks are able to do proper due diligence,
35:35money can be stopped in the tracks.
35:38Okay, I have the last two minutes on this part of the show.
35:41Tell me three steps that you want Indians to take in 2026 to keep their money safe.
35:46Mr. Kumar, I begin with you.
35:48Three steps that every Indian must take.
35:50I'll say, I'll go by what Honourable Prime Minister says.
35:56Stop, think and then take action.
36:00Okay, stop, think then take action.
36:03Don't take action in a hurry.
36:05Mr. Duggal, three steps.
36:07First step, let's learn to be conjuiced and be extremely stingy with sharing our information.
36:14Number two, please, the moment anything fear or panic comes in,
36:19in any conversation, disconnect.
36:21And finally, adopt cyber security as a way of life.
36:24That's the only way that's going to save you in the coming times.
36:27Okay, Jitin, three steps, quickly.
36:30First, put a limit of online banking on your bank account
36:33so that under duress also you're not able to make any changes and transfer money.
36:37Second, let's as a society cultivate this habit of not giving our personal mobile numbers
36:41and email IDs on shopping malls, shops for bills.
36:44This is where the data gets leaked.
36:46Third, any suspense or suspicion, call police.
36:51There is no harm in calling and seeking advice, even if the call turns out to be genuine.
36:56Call them and verify.
36:57And always call back the number who's calling you from.
36:59Just do not receive on the incoming call.
37:01Fair enough.
37:02SONAM,
37:03A,
37:04A,
37:05A,
37:06A,
37:07A,
37:08A,
37:09A,
37:10A,
37:11A,
37:12A,
37:13A,
37:14A,
37:15A,
37:16A,
37:17A,
37:18A,
37:19A,
37:20A,
37:21A,
37:22A,
37:23A,
37:24A,
37:25A,
37:26A,
37:27A,
37:28A,
37:29A,
37:30A,
37:31A,
37:32A,
37:33A,
37:34waiting that could be that should be on the in-bilkul initiate level peh is
37:41ka action ho na chaiye or definitely jo log yeh kar rahe hai hume turant se turant
37:46un logoko makar na chaiye ta ki future mein ye cheeje na ho koi apna koi kisi ka loss na ho
37:54teak mr. kumar you want to quickly respond how can things be speeded up for victims
37:59so that they get access to justice quickly sir i my three steps are firstly what why when where how
38:07these questions everyone should put on any such call kyo arya kaha se arya kishle arya what can be
38:13done etc so we need to be inquisitive secondly we need to increase the cyber capacity of police
38:20all the state police because they are overloaded and that's why they don't attend to many of these
38:25cases and thirdly we need to tighten the grip on banking and telecom sector to the extent of
38:33criminal liability that is the only solution otherwise this will keep on increasing very
38:38very pertinent points made on this broadcast and i want to thank all our guests for joining me here
38:43on this india today special broadcast remember the first step starts with you you need to take steps
38:51as an individual ensure you don't give out your otps unless you verified who you're giving out your
38:58otps to in case anyone says that it's a cyber arrest or words to that effect disconnect that call
39:04immediately put certain restrictions on the kind of fund flow from your account and keep in touch with
39:12your family your bank and the police the moment you suspect something wrong reach out to the police
39:17reach out to a lawyer reach out to your friends reach out to the bank instantly and for the
39:22government the government needs to do a lot more to ensure the citizens are safer from these cyber
39:29frauds whether it's the banks or the telecom regulatory authority regulate more to ensure we are safe
39:37from transnational cyber crime
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