- 9 months ago
Should AI artists be allowed to chart alongside human artists? In this heated and unfiltered debate, we dive into one of the biggest questions facing the music industry today.
Xania Monet’s manager Romel Murphy goes head-to-head with the Prophet, CEO of the Black Music Action Coalition, to discuss whether AI-generated artists belong on the same charts as human creators.
Xania Monet’s manager Romel Murphy goes head-to-head with the Prophet, CEO of the Black Music Action Coalition, to discuss whether AI-generated artists belong on the same charts as human creators.
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00:00I don't feel that an AI generated artist should be on the same charts as human beings.
00:06So if she put her voice in there and she put a template, that's no different from a future.
00:10We've never heard future rap without the template on his voice.
00:14A T-Pain without the template on his voice.
00:15Who's the artist? Is the artist Nikki or Zania?
00:19Zania is the artist. I'm going to ask you this question.
00:21No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:23Who's the artist? Is the future the artist or his legal name the artist?
00:25It's the same thing.
00:26No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:30How should AI music be treated on streaming services and on the charts, whether that's
00:37Billboard, TikTok, Spotify, or anything else? That's what we're going to tackle here today
00:42with my two great guests. Profit, Romel, thank you so much for being here. There's a lot of
00:48nuance to this conversation, a lot of people at differing points of view, and so I wanted to bring
00:52both of you guys here because I think you'll come from two different very important vantage points
00:56on this issue. So before we get started in this, I want to have you guys kind of introduce
01:01yourselves to whoever's watching at home. Thank you for having me. I am the president
01:05and founder of Daydream, which is, we play off AI, spelling day, D-A-I. So I got thrust into
01:13the AI music space with Zenaia Mone. That's my artist. I manage her, and I manage her creator,
01:19Nikki Jones, and so it kind of thrust me in unexpectedly, and then I had to research and
01:24learn it fast. I've been in the music industry over 20 years. I'm Profit, co-founder,
01:29president, CEO of the Black Music Action Coalition, organization that formed in 2020
01:34in response to the show Pausing after the killing of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and
01:39Amara Arbery. About 200 of the most influential producers, artists, music managers, lawyers formed
01:47an organization that would first hold the industry accountable to the pledges they were making
01:51around social and racial justice. But then we quickly realized there was tremendous bargaining
01:57power in this group that we formed. So this organization for the past five, going on six
02:03years, have really been an advocacy group sitting at the intersection of music and activism.
02:08And Romel, you're working with a, perhaps the most well-known AI artist today with Zenaia
02:14Monet. I know Zenaia is backed by a real person who writes poetry and uses Suno to kind of take
02:22those poems into songs. I'm wondering, though, what was your first impression when you heard
02:28about Zenaia? So when she first, so the creator is a family friend, been known her over 15 years.
02:34So when she first said, I want to create my AI twin, which is, Zenaia first was an influencer.
02:40That's what she created her for. So Suno popped up. She immediately called me and said,
02:43have you heard of Suno? I said, no, what is it? She said, well, it says I can put my lyrics
02:47and turn it into song. And then the story began. She started playing with it. She put out 37 of
02:53her poems in there, created 37 songs. And then it just connected organically. It wasn't an intent.
02:59It wasn't an industry plant. It just grew on its own because the lyrics were real life stories
03:03that connected with individuals.
03:04Profit, BMAC recently started working on a letter that kind of enumerated what y'all's
03:10thoughts are on how AI music should be treated on the charts. So I was wondering if you could
03:15tell us a little bit about that letter and what you were talking about in there.
03:18The overarching conversation is how we protect the creative community against AI, like first
03:26and foremost. The federal legislation we have forth now is the No Fakes Act, a bipartisan bill
03:32that we were a part of creating and introducing to protect creators and the average person from deep
03:42fakes or AI clones. There's no guardrails up yet around how AI is being introduced to society.
03:51We are definitely not anti-innovation, but we're definitely not okay with corporations using
04:01unlicensed IP to train technology for profit. And I think in that letter that we have coming
04:09out, we'll speak to some of the ideas that we have around those guardrails. Our goal as organizations
04:16and advocacy groups is to ensure that the creative community are a part of this conversation this
04:22time. And it's not just something that we kind of left out of and then told this is down what's
04:26going on. Secondly, I don't feel that an AI generated artist should be on the same charts as human
04:33beings. I think that very similar to the way you put parental advisory stickers on rap songs in the
04:43early 90s. The same sort of, you know, transparency should be taking place as it relates to AI generated
04:51artists. I think a lot of people, yeah, I think a lot of people don't even know that they're listening
04:57sometimes. I think when the average person first heard his client, I doubt that they knew that it
05:03was an AI avatar that was created. And I think that that should be transparent to the people. I'm happy
05:11to hear iHeart came out saying, listen, we're not playing music that's not going to be, that's not
05:16human. Yeah. We have to, you know, embrace technology, but also take care of the creative
05:23community that have taken care of us since the inception of time. I'm not against labels, but I
05:28do think they should be a part of the same charts. Now, I'm in agreeance with outright stealing
05:32creators' work and not giving them credit for their IP and them not making money. I'm in total
05:37agreeance would be back on that. But as far as saying that it's because it's voice generated by
05:43AI machine or technology that it shouldn't be included in charts or it shouldn't be awarded
05:50Grammys or whatever, not, I take, I'm against that because I look at it as it's still art. If someone
05:56goes and creates this song, they write all the lyrics. Now, if they're just typing in a prop and it
05:59creates the whole song, that's a difference. But I'm going to use my client as an example. If you go in
06:04and you write the song and people don't know in Suno, it has a thing called persona, she went in
06:10there and recorded her voice and then she put a template on it. And that's where the voice of Zenaya
06:15was created. You can't type and say, sound like Beyonce, sound like Keisha Cole. You can't. Suno does not
06:20allow that. Those guardrails are on there. So if she put her voice in there and she put a template, that's no
06:25different from a future. We've never heard future rap without the template on his voice. A T-Pain without the
06:32template on his voice. So if she's putting the human element of writing the lyrics and creating
06:37the melody, and when we do our songs with Suno, we pull the stems off because Suno is like a studio. We pull
06:42her vocal stems off and then we give them to a producer. So if I go get a DJ L from Chicago or I get a
06:48Zay Tobin, reproduce this beat. So I don't see why that wouldn't be on the charts because I can turn and say, well, what
06:54about the singers that have never written a lyric? They just sang something that was given to them.
06:58They're on the charts. So who is the gatekeeper of what a true artist is? That's my dilemma.
07:03The disconnect is we're not against it being on charts. I think there should be a separate chart.
07:13I think that the AI avatar should fight their way to the top like humans have to fight their way to
07:18the top. So if Zania Monáe, if what's the country artist? Breaking Rust. Breaking Rust. All of these
07:26acts that's coming out allow there to be a chart system, Grammys and whatever, that awards, support,
07:35celebrate that movement. So this is not anti-that movement, but the difference that even in his
07:41breakdown of it, he spoke about humans. He spoke about a future. He spoke about T-Pain,
07:46who might be using auto-tune on their voice, but they are in fact humans. No different than when
07:53the drum machine came and drummers were pissed off that now you're using drum machines to make
07:58the snare and the kick, you know, pop. So it's not that energy of being against the innovation.
08:06I just have an issue with non-humans competing against humans.
08:13Yeah, I hear you. I think one of the things that I think about with this whole debate is where do you
08:19draw the line between something that would be considered a quote-unquote AI artist or an AI song
08:23versus something that is human-made because it's such a gray area in between. Obviously, we've all
08:29talked about it already here today. There are people who use just a very simple text prompt and a song
08:34pops out that basically didn't do anything. But then we also have the other end of the spectrum where
08:39maybe someone used Suno to generate a baseline, let's say, that they took and they built the whole
08:45other song or the whole rest of the song by themselves as a human being, just in a regular
08:50DAW. If we were to create an AI chart or if an AI chart were to be a thing, does the song with just
09:00the AI baseline belong on that chart or does it belong on the human chart? I'm talking about the
09:04actual artists. So if you used AI to help finish the bridge or if you use this prompt to help develop
09:13the baseline, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an avatar, an entity that's not
09:22human. So your argument of gripe is with the avatar itself. So then we have to go against
09:29K-pop demon slayers, which is probably one of the biggest things this year. But it's still humans
09:36behind it because there's still a human person behind Zania. It's just like Zania is just the face of it.
09:41So the problem is you're saying that she didn't put her face in the forefront because Nikki can sing.
09:46She sings in her church choir. She put her voice into it. She's just not the face. So I guess the
09:51dilemma you guys are having is with the avatar, not the actual AI creating process.
09:55Yeah, because again, I know a lot of producers and songwriters that love the technology and utilize it
10:02to feel like it has opened chambers up for them that otherwise wouldn't have been opened. My initial
10:07arguments were with the corporations that you could say, give me a James Brown song. And then
10:12it generated a James Brown record without the estate being compensated or agreeing to even allow that
10:18process to happen. So we're in agreement with that. If you could type that in, give me James Brown,
10:21I'm in agreement with that. And it's really not a conversation where it's B-Mac or profit against
10:28Zania Monet, you know, at all. Or Nikki for that matter. You know what I'm saying? Whatever her
10:34process is, whether she gave her record to Victoria Monet or to Ziana Monet is her record. And she did
10:43what she, you know, as a creator wanted, wanted to do with it. I'm just suggesting that a, the audience
10:49should be aware that Zania Monet off the rip is not a human. And then in my opinion, there should
10:59be a separate charting system to celebrate those creators who, who are deciding to use their
11:04creativity in that way. And I think that's where we're in, we're in line with, I don't think if
11:10you're trying to fake out from jump, it was Zania Monet is an avatar and was created by Nikki. That was
11:16from day one in the bio of her Instagram when it first started. So it was never a trickery. The
11:20lyrics just connected and then it went from there. But then on the flip side, after that happened,
11:26a lot of people were advocating, well, you should just give that song to a traditional artist.
11:30I'm not an artist, but I know the business of music. An email from Talisha Jones before she was
11:35Zania Monet creator wouldn't have got open. 20 songs wouldn't have got open. They wouldn't have
11:40opened it. So when you tell me now that I got an avenue to get my songs out and it created this
11:45buzz, I had nine million streams in two weeks. Now I'm supposed to step back, take a cake I baked
11:51and put all the ingredients in and give it to someone else to go get the record deal,
11:55the lucrative record deal that she was able to get. Business wise, that doesn't make sense anywhere.
12:00In case anyone isn't aware of the big headlines around Zania Monet, but she got a multi-million
12:06dollar record deal, correct? With Hollywood Media. I think it scared a lot of people, especially if
12:10they didn't read past the headline. How do we define what the problem is? Is it the AI avatar?
12:16Is it AI doing the songwriting? Is it AI doing the producing? I think it depends on who you're
12:20speaking to. And I think it's very clear to understand that, that, you know, I had no problem
12:28with the deal. Totally. Not about the, the, how you produce your music, what, I'm not here to guard or
12:35to tell you or to try and regulate how you use technology that's available to you at all. You
12:43know, this is, um, salute to Nikki, salute to Rommel. They were able to take the technology and create
12:49a business and now able to continue to take care of their families. I mean, that's one of the dreams of
12:55being in this entertainment industry. This is what we can do as an industry to ensure that the
13:00creative community, the art, the humans within the creative community can continue to thrive,
13:05continue to compete, continue to give their best to, uh, to fight for that number one spot in the
13:10charts. I just don't think that a non-human should be a part of that fight, but should there be charts
13:18for them? Absolutely. Should there be space in this game for them? Absolutely. So when Harvey's saying
13:23one of the toughest decisions he had to make is how they deal with AI as, as, from a Grammy
13:28perspective, yeah, nah, if, if, if, if, if, if you have Zania Monáe and this one and that one and these are
13:35all AI generated avatars and they going up to compete for that, who was the best that year, I would, I would
13:42support that. Let me ask you a question. What about for the best songwriter of the year? Why couldn't she be in that
13:48category? She wrote the record. She is not the avatar. Again, this is like Nikki then would be
13:53Nikki herself. So you're saying she could be up for a songwriter? Because she is a human. Again, if she is
13:58a human, I'm, I am pro-human. That's all I'm saying. So Nikki is a songwriter, or if you gave the
14:05beat to Zaytoven or whomever to reproduce, that'd have nothing, I'm not there. I'm talking about the actual
14:12performer. Yeah. So we've talked a lot about like charts and charts are kind of a zero sum game.
14:18Like if one artist is number one that week, another artist can't be number one that week,
14:22but streaming is a little bit different from that. And that's another area where AI artists and human
14:27artists are all on the same platforms together. I think iHeartRadio is going to have to re,
14:33rethink and come up with a different decision because I'm a numbers guy. No one person or one
14:39company can be gatekeeper music. Music is a great connector of everybody. iHeart said that anything
14:43that has AI technology involved, can't play on the air, can't be on their podcast. And so when I talk
14:49to, when I sit back and I think about what Tom did, I understand it was a quick reaction, but I think
14:56if you're not going to try to gatekeep music, you have to take a retraction or take a step back. And I
15:00say that because when we were on iHeartRadio, we were 28 at Urban AC. Number one was Kim. I'm a huge
15:08Kim fan. That's my age group. Kim was getting 58,000 streams a week when he was number one.
15:14So now it was getting 1.6 million streams a week. So you're gatekeeping. She got 100,
15:191.6 million fans listening to that song a week. And you made the decision because you're at the
15:24top of the food chain for your company. You made the decision to shut it down. So now you're gatekeeping
15:30the fans because the fans evidently are connecting because that's not bots. That's not campaigns.
15:35That's organic. 1.6 million streams a week over a two-month period consistently. But you pulled
15:43it off. So I think people are just reacting to the AI part. But you also got to understand
15:48AI is an outlet for songwriters, producers. So if we're protecting creators, we got to look
15:54at that avenue. We have songwriters that have some of the biggest records for Grammy winners
15:58who can't put food on the table. So if Suno gives them an opportunity to put food on their
16:04table because they created an avatar with their songs, who are we as a minority, majority,
16:10however you want to look at it, to say, that's not good music. That's not real. You're not
16:13a musician. So I think society is trying to gatekeep the definition of an artist. And that's
16:19not fair. Zania, Nikki is an artist. Zania is an extension of her. It's just an avatar face.
16:24So who is the artist? Is the artist Nikki or Zania? Zania is the artist. I'm going to
16:30ask you this question. No, no, wait. Wait, wait, wait. Who's the artist? Is future
16:33the artist or his legal name the artist? It's the same thing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
16:37It's the same thing? Absolutely. That is not the same thing. How could that be the same
16:41thing? I thought you were going to cover something... This is PKA. Nah, man. Zania is Nikki's
16:45PKA. No, it ain't. Zania is her professionally known as. No, because you talked about a completely,
16:51a computer-generated image, right?
16:56Okay.
16:57This is not your government name
16:59versus your stage name.
17:00This is...
17:01That's what her agreement says.
17:02Her agreement,
17:03her record label
17:04is just like anybody else's record label.
17:05It says Tanisha Jones,
17:08P.K.A.
17:09Zaniyama Noah.
17:09Manet, that's who signed the deal.
17:11Okay.
17:11So if I'm,
17:12if my name,
17:13my rap name is Melo,
17:15it's going to say Romel Murphy,
17:17P.K.A. Melo.
17:18Gotcha.
17:19There's no difference.
17:19Gotcha.
17:20But so who is the artist?
17:22Is it Nicki or is it Zaniyama Noah?
17:25I would say Nicki,
17:26Nicki is the creator.
17:28All right.
17:28And I'm here to protect that.
17:31Straight up and down.
17:32You know,
17:32what we're fighting for
17:33is also for her IP
17:35to be protected
17:36as she moved forward
17:37as a songwriter.
17:38We want to make sure
17:39that her creativity
17:40is never manipulated
17:41or taken advantage of
17:42or used in a way
17:44that she doesn't agree.
17:44And we're in agreement
17:45on that part.
17:45You and I agree.
17:46You and I agree.
17:46You and I agree on that.
17:48So this conversation
17:49is to protect
17:50all creators 1,000%.
17:52Now avatar
17:53and computer generated
17:56entities or whatever,
17:59that's a separate thing.
18:00And if this is who
18:00you decide to use
18:02to get your creativity
18:04to the marketplace,
18:05no problem.
18:07I just think that
18:08that should be
18:09charted separately.
18:11So what about K-pop
18:12and then Demon Slayers?
18:14They were number one
18:15for, you know,
18:16at least 20 weeks straight.
18:17For a long time.
18:18And so what do you think
18:20that category?
18:20They're going to win
18:21numerous awards this year.
18:22Yeah, my conversation
18:23don't shift with the genre.
18:25You know,
18:25it's a cross-genre.
18:27So it's consistent,
18:27a cross, okay.
18:271,000%.
18:28Okay, okay.
18:29Okay, interesting.
18:31And so I think
18:33that's a good thing
18:34to point out.
18:34The avatars,
18:35does it matter
18:36if the avatar
18:36is AI-generated
18:38or if it's made
18:39by an animation studio?
18:42I think these questions
18:43are only going to come up
18:44more and more
18:44as things go on.
18:46I'm wondering,
18:47do you think your stance
18:48on AI on the charts
18:51is the same
18:52as how you think
18:53AI should be treated
18:54on streaming services?
18:56Or do you kind of
18:56have a different nuance
18:57there when you think about it?
18:58I think the streaming services
19:00are slightly different
19:01because an individual
19:03can make a decision
19:06what they want to consume.
19:08and how often
19:09they want to consume it, right?
19:11So if I want to stream
19:13Zenaia Monet
19:1435 times a day
19:16as an individual,
19:18that's my prerogative,
19:19that's my right,
19:21and I should be able
19:22to do that.
19:23But when we talk about
19:24how records are charted
19:26and who's involved
19:28with creating
19:29that number one,
19:30number two,
19:30number three space,
19:32I just think that,
19:33for one,
19:35the creative community,
19:36especially the black
19:37creative community,
19:38have given so much
19:39to society
19:41from the inception
19:42of time
19:43and have received
19:45so little
19:45in terms of compensation,
19:47in terms of ownership,
19:48and for me,
19:50I'm always out
19:51to protect that
19:52and we have to fix that.
19:54And we as a people
19:55should never get
19:57so far away
19:58from the human connection.
19:59And when you have
20:02non-humans
20:03competing in charts
20:04with humans,
20:06I think we are
20:07furthering that disconnect
20:10between humanity
20:12and where we need to be.
20:15Streaming services,
20:16I feel like
20:16I'm almost going to
20:18duplicate what I said
20:19with iHeartRadio.
20:20We're getting,
20:22for the last two months
20:23consistently,
20:24we're getting
20:24six million streams
20:25a week total
20:26of our whole project.
20:28We're at
20:28180 million streams
20:30in three months,
20:31globally.
20:31We haven't hit
20:32one playlist.
20:33So you guys are
20:34blacklisting up
20:35in playlists,
20:35but playlists are
20:36supposed to be created
20:37for what the audience wants.
20:39That's how you get
20:40on the playlist
20:40because the audience
20:41wants you on this.
20:42We can't get on the playlist.
20:43Man, you don't even
20:44need the playlist.
20:45With those numbers,
20:45you get on the playlist
20:47and get a fraction
20:48of those numbers
20:48because they're shadowbanning us
20:55and it's like,
20:56why?
20:57If the consumer
20:57wants the music.
20:59I can see if we were
21:00abiding it
21:01or we were forcing it,
21:02if they want it,
21:03how can you,
21:04sort of like,
21:04piggyback on what he said.
21:06You can't make them
21:07choose what you choose.
21:08And that's what I feel
21:09some of the playlists
21:10are doing,
21:10so that's my bite
21:12with the playlist.
21:13But to piggyback
21:14what he said on
21:14about the black music
21:16creators and the black culture,
21:17we have been getting
21:18the shortening of the stick.
21:19So in my vision,
21:21we're at the forefront
21:21of innovation.
21:22You're balancing the books?
21:23No.
21:24You're doing it for
21:25what they did
21:25to the cold crunch.
21:26We're at the forefront
21:27of innovation.
21:28So instead of,
21:29it's not going to stop.
21:30If it was Zaniya,
21:31if it was Breaking Rush,
21:33it was going to be someone
21:35and it was going to be more.
21:36So instead of having
21:37the dialogue of stopping it,
21:40as a black collective,
21:41let's come together
21:42and create our own.
21:44Because us speaking out
21:45against it
21:46and trying to stop it,
21:47you're trying to stop a train.
21:48That's going to keep moving.
21:49I actually want Nikki
21:50to become more vocal
21:52about artist protection
21:53as a songwriter.
21:55I think she should join
21:56the Songwriters of North America,
21:57Sona,
21:58and be an advocate
21:59to protect the songwriter community.
22:02This is a conversation
22:03about the corporations
22:04who have traditionally
22:08manipulated the creative community
22:10for their own gain
22:11and then sit down
22:12with the major labels
22:13to broker the deal
22:14and the creative communities
22:15left out of that conversation
22:16and are fighting
22:1830 years later
22:19for peanuts per stream
22:21because we wasn't
22:23at the table
22:23when major labels
22:24broke the deal.
22:25So we want
22:27the Zaniya, Monet's
22:28and Nicky's
22:29and Rommel's
22:30at the table
22:31so that we can not
22:32just be the face of it
22:34but help control
22:35and regulate
22:36what this looks like
22:3610, 15 years from now.
22:38You know,
22:39don't just be
22:39the innovator today.
22:40Let's go ahead
22:41and have the whole thought.
22:42Let's just not think
22:43about the moment.
22:44Let's think about
22:45the movement.
22:45What he's saying
22:46is all Nicky and my...
22:48Nobody's reached out.
22:51I've gotten DMs,
22:52emails from labels
22:53and artists
22:54bashing
22:55but nobody's reached out
22:57and said,
22:57let's work.
22:58Let's partner.
22:59Not one artist.
23:01Can you come to the studio
23:02and write for me
23:02or can you help us,
23:04like he said,
23:04be part of B-Mac?
23:06Nobody's reached out.
23:07So when we're sitting
23:08in our silo,
23:09it's like,
23:10what are they mad about?
23:12Because I would have
23:13thought you would
23:14have reached out.
23:14Let's have a conversation.
23:16Let's figure it out
23:16because we're new to it too
23:18and we don't want
23:19to go against the creators.
23:20It's actually a platform
23:21for the songwriters
23:23and producers to grow
23:24but nobody's reached out.
23:26Well,
23:26you get in here first,
23:27Bill Boyd.
23:28B-Mac is definitely
23:29reaching out.
23:30We're sitting down
23:31and it's going to be
23:32the beginning of the conversation
23:33and we're going to
23:33absolutely build.
23:35There's more in common
23:36than what we disagree on.
23:37Romel,
23:38I'm curious
23:38what the end game is
23:40for Zaniya Monet
23:42or for Nicki
23:43as Zaniya Monet.
23:44Does she want
23:44to become a professional
23:45songwriter who writes
23:46for other people
23:47and this is just
23:48the foot in the door
23:49to get her there
23:49or is Zaniya the end game?
23:51The answer's twofold.
23:53We want Zaniya
23:54to be there forever
23:54and become a household name,
23:56a legacy
23:57and be an artist
23:58and build Zaniya's world.
24:00That's one part.
24:01But she's totally,
24:02absolutely wanting
24:04to write
24:04with some of the biggest
24:05R&B artists
24:06in the industry.
24:07Like we have,
24:09she's writing songs
24:09and just cataloging them
24:10for other people
24:11like this
24:12because Zaniya has
24:13a unique world.
24:15It's about pain,
24:15it's about fatherhood,
24:17miscarriage.
24:17It's more of about
24:18life experiences
24:19but she's written
24:21up-tempo love songs
24:22that aren't Zaniya's vein.
24:24It's just a matter
24:25of people understanding
24:26she is a true songwriter
24:27and then going from there.
24:28So it was a poem
24:30that went through Suno
24:33to create the song.
24:34Okay.
24:35So initially
24:36she wrote poetry.
24:36She put her poems in there
24:38and they created
24:38the structure of a song.
24:40And so after doing that
24:41she was like,
24:42oh, I can just structure
24:43them myself in song form.
24:44Okay.
24:45So then she became
24:46She learned to write songs
24:48through how they
24:50structured her poems.
24:51Exactly.
24:52All right.
24:52Okay.
24:53I could talk to you guys
24:54for hours about this.
24:55I have like 500 million
24:56follow-up questions
24:57from what we just discussed
24:59but we are out of time today
25:00so we're going to have
25:01to have you guys back
25:02at some point
25:03and talk about
25:03more of these issues.
25:05Right now it's very important
25:06that we just have
25:07the open dialogue at all.
25:08And it starts there though.
25:10Be very clear.
25:10It starts with the open dialogue.
25:11The conversation.
25:12Because you don't have to
25:13walk in agreeing
25:14with everything.
25:15But I guarantee
25:15with the open dialogue
25:16you leave agreeing
25:18with more than you
25:18thought you did
25:19before you had that dialogue.
25:20Yeah.
25:21So thank you guys
25:22both for coming here.
25:23Thank you for having me.
25:23We really appreciate it.