- 6 weeks ago
'Hacks' co-creator, executive producer, writer and director Lucia Aniello and star Hannah Einbinder sat down with THR's Deputy Awards Editor Brande Victorian to chat all about the HBO series in a Directors in Focus conversation.
Category
✨
PeopleTranscript
00:00All right, please join me in welcoming co-creator, co-showrunner, executive producer, writer, and director of Hacks, Lucia Anello.
00:10And the star of Hacks, known as Ava Daniels on screen, Hannah Einbinder.
00:17It's me?
00:18Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:21Thank you both so much for being here.
00:23Thanks for having us.
00:25Hey, everybody.
00:26Go birds, baby.
00:27That was a perfect clip to start with.
00:31I know that you have called season four sort of a love letter to Los Angeles.
00:36And I don't know if there's anything more loving you can do now than shoot in L.A., have productions here in L.A., which we are all excited about.
00:43But this also marks, you know, the moment that Debra gets her dream.
00:47She gets to late night.
00:48And I'm curious for you, as you started, you know, crafting this show from the very outset, did you always see like season four as being the moment we got here?
00:56Yeah, very much so.
00:58I mean, I think the whole show, in a cool-ish way, from inception to when we actually got to make the show, the first season was five years.
01:07And as a result, we really had a lot of time to be like, how do we want to tell the story?
01:12What is the story really about?
01:13So when we went in on the initial pitch, we pretty much pitched out what each season was going to be about.
01:18And this fourth season was always like about this white whale, kind of the source of her trauma, this late night show that was supposed to happen for her.
01:24It was always her dream.
01:26What happens when she does actually get that dream?
01:29And where does that put her professionally and interpersonally with her relationship with Ava?
01:33And so for us, it was kind of like, yeah, it's always nice for us to have a North Star to kind of always look towards.
01:40And for season four, that was it.
01:42Okay.
01:43And Hannah, of course, your character, this marks a big moment in her character arc overall.
01:47You know, she's stepping into her own as a head writer, kind of, you know, beating Deborah at her own game a little bit, as we saw like the season finale of three.
01:54I'm curious for you what it's been like playing this character, you know, over four seasons and being in this more like seasoned, established version of her now.
02:03Yeah, I mean, I feel like Ava was so fully three dimensional when I when I received her.
02:09Hey, shout out to you.
02:10Appreciate that.
02:12And so like we just we continue to have these conversations and we have been having these conversations for like five years about this person who feels very real to us.
02:20We feel like we know.
02:21And so like I am very fortunate to inherit like really immaculate writing and a beautifully crafted narrative that feels really earned.
02:32So as yeah, as we have conversations about Ava, they feel really easy and natural.
02:38And it's felt really good and incredibly rewarding and so meaningful.
02:44And best job.
02:46And I'm like, wow, Lucia, you obviously wear so many hats on this show.
02:55I'm curious for you when you're writing episodes, are you also thinking about how you'll direct them?
03:00And were there any moments like in this episode in particular from the outset, you know, this is exactly how I'll direct it?
03:06Yeah, I think the I'm going to start with the second part first.
03:09But the in the direction of it, I think the thing that I was always thinking about as writing when I was when we were writing it was like the tension that we wanted to build throughout the episode and how we would in with camera especially build that tension.
03:24And so it like becomes very handheld.
03:26We do a couple mirroring shots in this episode where we're kind of in like a profiley three quarter extreme close up on both of them where they really start to be in their heads.
03:34And so there's some just like visual motifs that sorry, I just said motifs.
03:38Oh, but I did.
03:40I said visual motifs.
03:41This is a place to do it, honey.
03:44What can you do?
03:45What can you do?
03:47You're safe.
03:47You're safe.
03:48I'm with my people.
03:50I know every person here is saying motif three times a day.
03:55Right?
03:56So visual motifs I use a couple of times.
04:00And they were just like I just really wanted to be able to like build that up so that like when she Debra is finally giving that speech towards the end about, you know, what it means.
04:10What is this slippery slope and what decision does she have to make and what kind of person is she in this moment?
04:16What is kind of late night become?
04:17And, you know, the title, of course, the slope is really about that moment.
04:22And so to build that moment and also be able to really be with Ava and be like, oh, my God, is she doing this to me again?
04:28Is she kind of backstabbing me once again?
04:30And, yeah, just the tension of that was something I was thinking about in terms of really about like, yeah, how can I execute that in a way that like builds both up at the same time?
04:40And so that in that moment you felt like it was really at a climax for both characters.
04:45Yeah.
04:45And then, wait, there was a first part.
04:47Just are you typically kind of thinking about how you'll direct things as you write?
04:50Yes and no.
04:51I really try to think about just like story when writing.
04:54But then at times like a shot or something will pop into my mind.
04:58And then Paul and Jen also do a lot of like we talk about like visual stuff a lot even when we're writing.
05:07So it's not like I'm the only person thinking visually.
05:10They do that as well as the rest of the room.
05:13So it's kind of, you know, for a comedy we really try to push ourselves to make it like a big visual feast as it were.
05:21And so we're always thinking about that.
05:22Yeah.
05:23Okay.
05:23Awesome.
05:24Well, one scene in particular I want to know more about in character is Dance Mom.
05:28Of course.
05:28I have talked to Julia Nicholson a couple times and she's like, I never could have seen myself in this role.
05:36So I'm curious, how did you know she was right for Dance Mom?
05:41Okay.
05:41So Dance Mom on the page, a wee bit broad.
05:47And so, you know, like she is crazy.
05:52She's totally insane.
05:53She's texting with Adam Levine.
05:55Like she's a crazy kind of girl.
05:57And so we knew that like to kind of balance out such an insane character, we wanted like who is like the most incredible actress.
06:06Someone's going right, right, right.
06:07Yes.
06:07Yes, yes, yes, yes.
06:08Who is such an incredible dropped in real performer to kind of balance it out.
06:13And for us, we've always loved Julianne, like love her.
06:16If you haven't seen Jenna Planet, you absolutely must.
06:18But she's just so good.
06:20So for us, we also think that there's something kind of so surprising about her doing such a comedic part.
06:25So, yeah, she and actually we have tried to get her on the show before.
06:30It didn't work out.
06:31And so we could just keep chasing her and we just kept stalking her.
06:35I just want to say on that, like think of the beautiful reality of Hex where all of these amazing parts,
06:42it's like Dance Mom and like Mayor Joe and like, you know, Weed and Ava's mom and, you know, Lunel and Angela and all of these amazing guest star characters are,
06:58I know this is DGA, this is kind of a SAG tangent,
07:00but all these like amazing women get to do the best, funniest, coolest parts.
07:08There are no, it's all women.
07:12There's no, you know what I mean?
07:14And I'm just like, heck yes.
07:18Hacks freaking rips.
07:22Agreed.
07:22Yes.
07:23Just want to say.
07:24Tell me about directing that scene, though.
07:28What was already on the page?
07:29What kind of was found?
07:31Gator Tales was a pitch on the day.
07:35I mean, it was really like it was we don't really actually usually have a lot of time to rehearse.
07:39Am I telling the truth?
07:40Fact.
07:42But that one we did kind of rehearse the day before a little bit.
07:44We got into the space and worked it out.
07:46Julianne was so like committing physically.
07:48She actually cut her hand a little on the like glass bark thing at first.
07:51And like she was just flopping her body around.
07:53It was so funny.
07:55So there's a couple little improvised things there, but a lot of it was worked out ahead of time.
08:00But yeah, it was it's a really, you know, like they're also, you know, even though we like practice it knew what it was,
08:06there are certain things that like just happened on the day that were better.
08:08Like, for example, when Julianne's head is coming out of it, we had a steadicam shot of that moment.
08:15But then the camera that was just to the right of it that was supposed to be getting her coverage throughout actually didn't move as much,
08:21but was out weirdly out of focus at the top of it.
08:24But then when I like saw that clip, I was like, oh, actually, that's better because it's almost like mimicking her being slightly out of,
08:29you know, like if you put your face in the water, you come out, you're like a little out of focus for a half a second.
08:33And so I actually put that shot in instead because it kind of felt more like the experience that she was having.
08:39So it kind of immersed you into that a little bit better.
08:41Just an example.
08:43What I'm up to.
08:46Well, I'm curious, both of you.
08:47I mean, you talked a little bit about that you have so many conversations,
08:50but I'm curious just over the course of the four seasons, like how your relationship has developed as, you know,
08:56director, actor, writer, actor.
08:58Our relationship?
08:58Yes, together.
08:59And I think with Hannah, this kind of being your first big like acting job, you know,
09:03can you talk about that a little bit?
09:05Yeah.
09:05I mean, I was fans of Paul Uccia and Jen before I got this part.
09:11But like my deep and profound, like genuine, legitimate love for them has grown as the days have passed.
09:20Like I feel like after five years of working together, the experience of working with them is just like they are like a Debra Vance to me.
09:29They are this comedic ideal.
09:31They are the total embodiment of the depth of funny people, the real heart that funny people do possess.
09:43And also just, yeah, the heights of, you know, comedic excellence.
09:48And so like as we've talked and as we've gotten to know each other and become like literally blood, like I love you so much.
09:58I love you too.
09:58I love you so much.
10:00And I just like when I'm when we're out there, like we are clowning for them.
10:05Like we are clowning for the I'm on Mount Olympus drinking the nectar of the damn gods when I'm hearing her laugh.
10:11Like it is a feeling like no other.
10:13And so like Lucia's approach, obviously, visually is incredible.
10:18And she is so she is so, so excellent with the camera and knows exactly what she wants.
10:24But also on a from my perspective as an actor, like I feel like we're you know, an avatar where they braid the hair with the tree.
10:32And they're like, I feel like I'm locked in on like a genius comedic mind.
10:38And all of us feel this way in the in the cast.
10:41Like we all just want to we want to hear their laugh because it means the most because we have such immense respect for them.
10:49And so, yeah, like over the years, like I've always felt that way, but it's just deepened and deepened.
10:55And, yeah, it's like the best Hacks back show ever.
10:59I can't stop saying it.
11:01I love this shit.
11:02But I think also like our relationship is it is like you're saying kind of like is this Debra, Ava kind not not not toxic, not toxic.
11:13But like, you know, like it's like I do think we make each other better the way that Debra and Ava do.
11:17And I think that like Hannah, even though this is her first job and this is obviously not Jean's first job, but they've both taught us so much.
11:26And they've both given so much of themselves to the characters that they allow us to do things in the writing, the storytelling that I think are even beyond what we initially conceived.
11:35So it is really a symbiotic relationship that the tree and the hair and all that is two way.
11:40It's real.
11:42Also, like Megan Stalter, Robbie Hoffman, they were pretty new to TV screens, you know, as well with this show starting out.
11:49What's your approach when working with new actors or any advice maybe for people in the room?
11:54You know, I think usually if they're cast and they're there, then they should just keep doing what they do, that there's a reason that they're there.
12:01And, you know, we can embolden them with tools for like, here's what a mark is or whatever.
12:07But for the most part, you know, I think it's it's like an organic thing that we just don't we don't ever want ever really want anybody to to rough them like rough the edges, whatever that is like to come in too polished.
12:19I think that that's great for some people and for some certain roles.
12:23But for the most part, when we're casting a person, we're really casting them for their their uniqueness.
12:28And so, yeah, I guess my advice would just be keeping the person that got you there in the first place.
12:33You talked about you don't rehearse much.
12:35You know, what did you and Jean talk about beforehand?
12:39You know, what kind of came up while taping that you kept?
12:42You know, I actually don't think that we really discussed it ahead of time.
12:48I talk about I mean, we talk about stuff sometimes.
12:52I might be I might like say, do you have any questions?
12:54But yeah, we tend to like find I mean, I'm trying to think of big moments like this, like maybe like season three in the living room.
13:03Like like I feel like we are so close to it and it's so clear what the scene demands on the page that and we also rely heavily on a very efficient and connected process as we continue on with the scene and shooting it.
13:26So like it doesn't it actually does not there isn't a lot of talk before we really do go in like Lucia said, like we walk to set and shoot like so we just yeah, I get into it and it becomes, you know, alive that way.
13:42And part of the reason that I like to do that is because I think sometimes the actor's first instinct is something I want to commit to film.
13:48And if there's changes, that's that's fine and that's great.
13:52But for the most part, it's usually especially with Jean and Hannah, not it's almost always in the right zone.
13:59And sometimes there's just little tweaks and changes.
14:01And sometimes some of those changes are just the writing.
14:03The writing is oftentimes we could lose words because they're saying so much with so little that we oftentimes will just like cut things down or we'll do alts.
14:12We love alts and pages and pages of jokes.
14:16It's fucking awesome.
14:17Yeah.
14:17Sorry, we've been in Malibu all week.
14:21So I feel like my vibe is like Hacks rips.
14:24It's fucking awesome.
14:25I just became aware of that as I was saying it.
14:27But we have been shooting in Malibu all week.
14:29Not a spoiler.
14:31Continue.
14:36Well, what was it like for you filming the episode?
14:39I mean, it's so emotional.
14:40You're reacting now, you know, in real time.
14:43You know, what was it always I'm like crying at the table read.
14:46I'm crying.
14:46I'm reading the script in my room.
14:48I'm crying, watching it literally right now.
14:50I've seen it a million times.
14:51I'm like, I'm crying on the day.
14:53It's like really.
14:53Yeah, I feel like not only do I operate Ava Daniel's body, but also I feel like an audience member.
15:03I love the show as a viewer as well.
15:06And I feel really close to these characters and also to Gene.
15:10And I've always felt that so much of Paul Uchia and Jen is imbued in these characters.
15:16And I know what is true for them.
15:19I know what is emotionally true.
15:20I know what details from their life are in the show.
15:23Like, I know all of that.
15:26And so it's very personal.
15:28And it is, it does feel very close to me.
15:32And so, yeah, these moments are very organic.
15:35I feel like I'm holding back how much I love Hags.
15:39Why?
15:40I'm not.
15:41Because I know.
15:43Rightfully so.
15:43But, like, I watched that and I was like, man, we just got here.
15:48Like, and it's gone.
15:48You know, like, it kind of hurt for me.
15:51And I know you talked about kind of pitching that five season arc.
15:54So you kind of always knew, I guess, that maybe late night wouldn't last, you know, for too long for Debra.
15:59Can you talk about making that decision and maybe you, when you first saw it in the script, how you felt?
16:05When she gave it up.
16:06I was, I've never been able to successfully predict where the show would go.
16:13And so I'm always shocked.
16:15And, yeah, but it always feels really earned.
16:18And this season, too, like, everything that has transpired, like, in the story feels, yeah, really earned.
16:26And so I'm always shocked, but never, like, on a level of anything other than just, like, yeah, I could not have seen the twist.
16:34Yeah.
16:34Yeah.
16:35And what led to that choice?
16:37Yeah, I mean, I think it's both a commentary on this kind of thing that happens where you're like, oh, that was always something I would have wanted.
16:47But that's what you wanted in that point in your life.
16:49It's not what you necessarily want now.
16:51And I think for Debra, that's true.
16:53She wanted that then.
16:55But now she's a different person in a different place.
16:58And what Late Night is asking of her to be is very different, the changing landscape of just television in general.
17:04And I think she's also learned about what really makes her happy.
17:09And in some ways, it's that evolution is then.
17:14And then, of course, when this, you know, having to fire Ava comes into play, it's really put certain crosshairs.
17:20And for us, almost everything, even, like, the stand-up itself is always a function of story.
17:24It's like her stand-up is not good.
17:26What does she have to learn?
17:27Or where does she have to go?
17:28And same for, I think, the job of Late Night.
17:30It's, okay, this is a really hard job for her.
17:32Where does it push her as a character?
17:36And what arc can we find there?
17:38And so, for us, her quitting Late Night, even though it hurt in some ways, to me, I see it as a success.
17:46Because it means that she knows herself better now and knows what she wants more.
17:52Yeah.
17:52I will take that comfort.
17:55Well, you know, it's also, of course, an incredibly, you know, reticent episode, you know, with what's happening now in the industry, happening in our country.
18:02And you've done that before, like, tackling cancel culture, you know, with comedy.
18:06How do you decide, like, how current you want to be when you touch on, you know, issues that are affecting the industry, comedy?
18:13It's really difficult.
18:14Because we really want to be a show that, if you're hopefully clicking on whatever app you're watching this show on in 10 years' time, that you feel like it still feels fresh and relevant.
18:25Yet we also, comedy comes from, you know, what is happening in the world because of context, you know.
18:33And so, it's really difficult to be like, should we be commenting on this?
18:37Should we be doing a story about this?
18:38Or does it feel like it's something of this moment that won't be as relevant in the future?
18:43So, I think late night makes a lot of sense for her because of, you know, her history and kind of, like, yeah, what that meant for her.
18:51But, yeah, it is something that we kind of, I wouldn't say struggle with, but debate heavily.
18:55Okay.
18:55Because of that, we want to have that timeliness.
18:58Yeah.
18:59Yeah.
19:00Well, we know we have the fifth and final season coming up.
19:03I didn't say that.
19:05Fifth, and that's great.
19:07We know you're shooting in Malibu, as you just shared.
19:09There we go.
19:10There we go.
19:11Confirmed.
19:11Yes.
19:12But, you know, what can we look forward to?
19:16What can we look forward to in the trajectory for Debra and Ava?
19:21Hmm.
19:23How the heck do you do this one?
19:24I don't know.
19:25I mean, you know these girls.
19:29Great answer.
19:30You know them.
19:31They're going to be saying mean stuff to each other.
19:35And they're going to be smiling.
19:37And they're going to be like, and then they're going to be like, you know.
19:41Right?
19:42Totally.
19:43Like, that's true.
19:44That's literally, that's like four episodes right there.
19:47They're going to be bonding and being and loving each other.
19:51Yes.
19:51And they're going to go through stuff will transpire.
19:56Of course.
19:56And I guess the more like, yeah, you know, we end season four with the idea that Debra's obituary has been falsely misprinted.
20:07And so I guess at the very least we can say that it really puts into question what is the legacy she wants to leave?
20:13And what is the legacy that has been kind of forced upon her in this obituary?
20:19Similar to what I said, I feel.
20:22And yeah, so it's really asking, she's asking some bigger questions about how to live a life and how to define that life.
20:31Is that good?
20:31Okay.
20:32That's good.
20:32Amazing.
20:32Yes.
20:33Literally perfect.
20:34Forcing her gunpoint.
20:36I'm her employer.
20:37Is that good?
20:38Well, thank you both.
20:43I appreciate it.
20:45Sorry.
20:46Thank you so much for being here with us.
20:49Thank you all for being here with us.
20:51Thank you guys.
20:52Thanks, everybody.
20:52Enjoy the awesome day.
20:54Woo!
20:55I'll wait to end the evening and then we'll stop.
Comments