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Миграция в Европе: безопасность против солидарности? Столкновение евродепутатов на ринге

На этой неделе "Кольцо" обращается к европейским миграционным дебатам, поскольку ЕС переходит к более жестким правилам депортации и рассматривает спорные "центры возвращения" для отвергнутых просителей убежища за пределами Союза.

ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2025/12/18/migraciya-v-evrope-bezopasnost-protiv-solidarnosti-stolknovenie-evrodeputatov-na-ringe

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00:00Продолжение следует...
00:30Let's get started.
00:33Only a few months after the EU adopted a new migration and asylum pact, which should enter into force by June 2026,
00:41the European Council agreed on stricture deportation measures and the creation of return hubs for rejected asylum seekers potentially located outside the EU.
00:50These reforms and calls come amid a rise in anti-migration policies and far-right parties in European countries.
00:57And now it's the European Parliament's turn to ratify or dismiss them.
01:02So far, though, the tougher anti-migration policies don't seem to have the desired effect.
01:08Recent statistics show that the number of asylum seekers is going down in Europe,
01:12but the influx of refugees continues and the crossing remains deadly,
01:16while activists and NGOs warn of the continuous neglect of human rights.
01:21Therefore, the question persists.
01:23Are tougher EU migration policies the way forward, or are they just a way to keep the far-right at bay?
01:29So, are stricter rules the way forward, or is this just a way to keep the far-right at bay?
01:39That's the question that we'll be asking to our contenders.
01:43Let's meet them.
01:43Charlie Weimers, Swedish MEP, vice president of the European Conservatives and Reformists Group.
01:51An advocate for much stricter migration controls at the EU level,
01:55he has proposed physical border barriers around the EU to deter irregular migration.
02:01We do not want more asylum migration for the moment, he once said.
02:04Lee Andersen, Finnish MEP for the left group in the European Parliament.
02:12Former Minister of Education, she focuses on equality, social justice, workers' rights and human rights.
02:18Pushbacks are contrary to international human rights law,
02:21and the assessment of their legality will remain in the hands of the courts, not the Commission, she said.
02:27Mr. Weimers and Madam Andersen, thank you very much for joining us on The Ring.
02:35Is migration a problem, or is it an opportunity?
02:38Well, unfortunately, it is a problem because of decades of mass uncontrolled immigration,
02:44which has led to segregation, increased crime, as in my home country,
02:50where we used to regard shootings and bombings as something that others experienced.
02:58Now it is an everyday experience in Sweden.
03:00So we have big problems, and we have to get now breathing room to deal with them.
03:06Same question for you, Madam Andersen.
03:09Well, I think it is clear that Europe needs migration.
03:12We are a part of the world that is growing older, so it is clear that we need more people.
03:17But it is also clear that the way that Europe has handled the migration policy
03:22has also created a lot of human rights problems.
03:24Look at the Mediterranean, for example, where the lack of legal pathways
03:28has led to thousands and thousands of tragic deaths.
03:31We also know that many members of the EU states have not implemented the EU asylum policy
03:37or even the decision of the courts in a uniform way.
03:40So there are problems, but the problems are human rights problems.
03:43Let me go back to you, however.
03:45You said there is now, if I understood correctly, a clear connection between migration and crime.
03:52Some would say that is flat-out racist.
03:54How do you respond?
03:55I would say just go to the Strasbourg Christmas market.
03:59Did it used to be a fortress back in the 80s, the 90s, even 15 years ago?
04:05Today it is a fortress reminding us of how it used to be in the green zone in Baghdad
04:12under the US occupation, and that has with migration to do.
04:16The foiled terror attack against the Christmas market in Germany had with migration to do,
04:21because these were jihadists, Islamists, that wanted to hurt ordinary Europeans.
04:27This is the traditional way of argumenting for the far right and the extreme right.
04:30So they tried to equate all debate and all discussion around migration to be about crime.
04:35Crime is crime.
04:36And it needs to be addressed as crime.
04:38Yes, we need to fight organized crime.
04:41Yes, we need to fight terrorism.
04:42We have tools and policies to do that.
04:44But I do also think that Europeans know that when we talk about migration,
04:48we also talk about their neighbors.
04:50We talk about their classmates.
04:52We talk about families and people that they live with, work with, study with.
04:57So when we talk about migration policy, we need to be able to look at the full picture
05:02and also to discuss people that have a reason to apply, for example, for asylum,
05:08and that might also have a reason to receive asylum within the European Union.
05:12He did mention something important and interesting,
05:15which is the Christmas market in Strasbourg now is boarded up because of the idea of terror.
05:20Do you associate that to migration?
05:22I think we do a very big mistake also for the cohesion of our societies
05:28if we equate terrorism with migration, exactly for the reasons that I said.
05:34Europe is a continent consisting of people that have come here from different places,
05:39that live here, that work here, that have families here, that pay taxes here,
05:43that get their pensions here, and so on.
05:45We need to fight crime as crime, but we should not mix it up with the whole discussion on migration policy.
05:52Well, I wonder when the far left will connect the dots,
05:56because if you look at terrorist attacks in Europe,
06:01they are very often committed by people with a non-European background.
06:06in your own hometown of Turku, a failed asylum seeker murdered citizens of Finland.
06:15And, you know, why was he still allowed to be in Finland?
06:19Because of rules that you defend that makes it impossible to deport convicted rapists and terrorists
06:26to their home countries.
06:28Why do you defend these rules?
06:30And do you know, in my hometown of Turku, where there was this terrible terrorist accident,
06:35a knife attack, do you know who were the persons to intervene in that situation?
06:40They were also asylum seekers.
06:42In my hometown, nobody bought into this rhetoric of the extreme right,
06:47because they also saw the people who were courageous enough to intervene in that situation
06:52to try and protect the innocent civilians that became victims of this knife attack.
06:58Yes, there are criminals.
06:59Some of them have a migrant background.
07:02Yes, we need to be serious when we talk about fighting terrorism and organized crime.
07:06But we cannot make a creative picture where we try and present all migrants
07:11or all asylum seekers as criminals, because that is not true.
07:15That does not reflect reality.
07:17That did not reflect the reality in my hometown of Turku,
07:19and it does not reflect the reality where Europeans live.
07:22I want to give you a right reply, but to play devil's advocate,
07:25some would argue there would have been no attack,
07:27and therefore no need to intervene if that person who did not have a legal permit
07:30to be in Europe had not been there at that time.
07:32That's the core of the issue.
07:35Is it possible to create a society with absolutely no migration?
07:41It is not.
07:42That kind of solutions to the societal problems,
07:45I mean, one problem with the far right is that they want to solve every societal problem
07:50with saying that as long as we restrict migration, this will go away.
07:54Unemployment, let's restrict migration.
07:57Terrorism, let's restrict, or crime, let's restrict migration.
08:01Learning outcomes going down, let's restrict migration.
08:04But you do not actually present any solutions to the societal problems at hand.
08:10What are your solutions to fight the specific topic of crime or terrorism,
08:15or the specific topic of unemployment, or the specific topic of learning outcomes?
08:21It's not enough to just say that you want closed borders.
08:24The borders will never be completely closed.
08:27There will still be criminals.
08:28We will still have learning outcomes that go down.
08:31We will still have problems with unemployment.
08:33So we need to be able to address these societal problems for what they are,
08:37with real political solutions to them.
08:40Well, I would invite you to read the statistics from Sweden
08:44showing that immigration has led to an increase of crime.
08:47It's not me saying that it's the crime prevention agency in Sweden.
08:52So the statistics is there.
08:54You just have to bother to have a look at it.
08:58Also, when it comes to the issue of putting everyone in the same basket,
09:05no, that's not the case.
09:07We differ between those who build cars, who contribute, and those who burn cars.
09:13And the question is here, Leanderjohn,
09:15why do you say no to the deportation of criminal foreigners?
09:21Because that's what you do if there's a slight theoretical risk for them in their home country.
09:26Why don't you want to send them home?
09:28Firstly, we've actually had a lot of experts from Sweden coming to Finland
09:32saying, do not repeat the mistakes we have done in Sweden
09:36when it comes, for example, to segregation.
09:39Do not create societies where you have working-class families
09:42living in separate areas without any kind of perspective of social mobility,
09:49of being able to create the life that they want for themselves.
09:52When it comes to deportation of criminals,
09:55my party has not said no.
09:57It is possible to deport offenders that have committed serious crimes
10:02as long as the principle of non-reforma is respected.
10:06So that is the only kind of limit, I would say, legally,
10:11to when it's not possible to do it.
10:13And that, of course, I think we both agree we need to respect.
10:17But we have not said a categorical no to deportations of criminals.
10:21We have to now move on in the show.
10:23It's called The Ring, so let's take gloves off.
10:25Now, of course, as we always say,
10:32it is time for our viewers to get a real taste of the European Parliament
10:35and what it looks like from within.
10:38You both, obviously, are elected to protect your constituents
10:40and also ask each other tough questions and bring up tough issues.
10:45So now I will give you the floor so you can ask each other questions.
10:48And I know I cut you off, so, Mr. Viners,
10:50I will give you the first question.
10:51You have the floor.
10:52Paris canceled its New Year's Eve celebrations.
10:57The Christmas market here in Strasbourg looks like it's under siege, a fortress.
11:05Families are afraid to go out.
11:07Is that a price worth paying for Europeans in order to preserve liberal asylum policies?
11:13That is a price that we are paying for the rise of extremism in Europe.
11:17And we see it both.
11:18There is Islamist extremism.
11:21There is far-right extremism.
11:24We have seen examples of terrorism attacks of both of these.
11:28And I do honestly think that if we engage in this kind of debate
11:33that the extreme and the far-right is doing,
11:36where they kind of put this shadow of doubt
11:38on every single member of our societies that have a background from somewhere else,
11:44whose family has a background from somewhere else,
11:47we do not actually fight the root causes of extremism.
11:51We make it worse.
11:52So I think we should let the police do its work
11:55when it comes to combating terrorism and crime.
11:57And our responsibility as decision-makers and policy-makers
12:02is to make sure that we do not create more division in our societies, but less.
12:09And now, of course, it's your turn for a question.
12:11So, Charlie Weimers,
12:13I'm interested to know if you would say that Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia are safe countries,
12:22for example, for people belonging to the LGBT community
12:26or for journalists or political dissidents.
12:30These are safe countries.
12:32They're not at war.
12:33They have no situation in which a major persecution is ongoing.
12:40So we should be able to send back migrants coming from there
12:43because those migrants are generally not fleeing for their lives.
12:47So you're saying it's not an ideal place, perhaps, for your lifestyle,
12:52but if you do not have the right to be legal in Europe,
12:55you should go back to Morocco.
12:56That's what I'm saying.
12:58And this has been the problem for many years,
13:00that people have been coming to Europe,
13:03not because they fled a war,
13:05but because they looked for a better life.
13:09They came from safe countries of origin.
13:11But prosecution may not be a war.
13:13She's talking about the LGBTQ plus community.
13:15You don't have to be a war to feel prosecuted.
13:17I understand that it's not optimal for an LGBTQ person to be in Morocco,
13:23but we cannot be the destination of all people living under non-Western regimes.
13:31That's not how it can work.
13:32And we also have the situation where people pass through safe countries
13:37on their way to countries such as Germany, Finland, Sweden,
13:41and that can't stand.
13:43That's why it's so important what the commission has now proposed
13:47and what we're dealing with now in the parliament
13:50to establish these safe countries of origin.
13:52So you're saying it's not ideal, but it's also not Europe's problem.
13:56Yes.
13:57I think there is a huge contradiction here
13:59when it comes to the rhetoric of the extreme and the far right,
14:02because on the one hand, you're kind of saying that everybody,
14:05you know, that these countries, these cultures,
14:06that these people that are coming here are dangerous
14:09and they do not respect...
14:11I mean, this is your rhetoric.
14:12This is how you talk, not me.
14:13And they do not respect the rules of our societies.
14:17They do not respect women's rights, for example,
14:19or the rights of LGBT community.
14:21But then when it comes to EU legislation,
14:23you're all of a sudden saying that,
14:24yes, it's completely safe for people
14:26who belong to the LGBTQI community
14:28or for journalists, political dissidents,
14:30young women to go back to these countries.
14:32There's no need to be very specific
14:33when it comes to their asylum claims.
14:36And this is also actually contradictory
14:37to what the European Parliament itself has said
14:40that has adopted several resolutions
14:42concerning the human rights abuses and problems
14:46in, for example, Egypt and Tunisia.
14:48You talk about violence
14:49and some of the violence that some women may face
14:52if they have to go back to countries
14:53that you say are not safe.
14:54Some argue, however, women in Europe,
14:57and I'm sure you would agree with this,
14:58have become less safe as a result
15:01of uncontrolled illegal migration.
15:03And this is exactly the...
15:04What do you respond to?
15:04That is our fair point.
15:05I think this is exactly the contradiction
15:06of their rhetoric.
15:07I mean, I have always said
15:09that we have patriarchal structures everywhere.
15:12So it's a patriarchy, the problem.
15:13I don't know any society that is free,
15:15unfortunately, is free from violence against women
15:18that are free from patriarchal structures.
15:20But the foreign extreme right
15:22tried to present it as this is something
15:24that is coming to Europe from elsewhere.
15:26And now at the same time...
15:27So it's not migration, is it patriarchy?
15:28That's a problem.
15:29I would say so, because...
15:30Do you know any society
15:32that is free of those problems?
15:33I do not, unfortunately.
15:34I mean, there are countries and regimes
15:36such as the Taliban regime
15:37where it's, of course, much, much worse.
15:41But I also come from a country
15:42with very high numbers
15:44when it comes to violence against women
15:45and domestic violence.
15:47So trying to say that this is a problem
15:49only in some places is not correct.
15:52Okay, well, just for a second,
15:54let's stop here,
15:55because I want to bring in now a new voice.
16:02And now in reaction to the European Council's decision
16:05to reform the EU migration pact,
16:07which you alluded to
16:08and introduces now a solidarity pull,
16:11the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban
16:13said on social media that, quote,
16:16The latest Brazilian decision requires that from next July,
16:20Hungary must either take migrants in
16:22from other European countries or pay for them.
16:25I want to make it absolutely clear,
16:28and that's a quote,
16:29for once and for all,
16:30that as long as Hungary has a national government,
16:33we will not implement this outrageous decision.
16:37Now, my question to you is,
16:39does Viktor Orban have a point?
16:41Yeah, well, Sweden is among those countries
16:44supposed to take the most migrants
16:47through this solidarity mechanism.
16:49And I wonder,
16:50has the commission even looked at
16:52how many migrants Sweden has taken
16:54during the last decades?
16:57No, they have not.
16:58They have not taken that into account.
17:00So instead,
17:01we will have to pay in to Brussels
17:04a fee for not receiving
17:07forced migration upon Sweden.
17:09I think that's a principle
17:11in breach with subsidiarity.
17:13That's why I voted against that principle.
17:15And that's why I claim that it's morally wrong.
17:18The Italians, the Spanish, the Greeks,
17:19they'll say we need help.
17:20And that means either financial compensation
17:21or a quota.
17:22How do you respond to that?
17:23That should be managed
17:24through the ordinary EU budget.
17:27They should get help.
17:28They should get EU financing
17:30for border barriers,
17:31which they are not being provided with
17:34at the moment,
17:35which my opponent is against.
17:38So that we could offer,
17:39but not by implementing a system
17:41in which Sweden is supposed to accept
17:45migrants by dictate from Brussels.
17:47And on this point,
17:48either you take a quota of people
17:50or you pay to facilitate,
17:52obviously, financial assistance.
17:54Some would argue the issue is that
17:56that's not really how it works.
17:57The core problem is the number of arrivals
18:00to deal with it.
18:00You need to bring down that migration.
18:02This migration pact will not work
18:04in real life, will it?
18:06I think it depends very much
18:07on what other types of policies
18:09and actions the EU will do
18:11in terms of migration,
18:12like how we succeed in terms
18:13with legal pathways, for example.
18:16As long as there are no legal pathways,
18:18we will continue to see
18:19irregular flows of migrants
18:21doing these very dangerous trips
18:23over the Mediterranean.
18:25And I sincerely hope that Sweden
18:27will not walk down the path of Hungary
18:29where you openly disobey binding EU law.
18:32So I think that this solidarity mechanism
18:34is a good part of this asylum
18:36and migration policy pact
18:38that was decided last Monday.
18:41Because at the moment,
18:43the biggest pressure, of course,
18:45is directed at these countries
18:47in the southern part of Europe
18:48just because of their geographical location.
18:50But they don't want the money.
18:51They want people out.
18:52Exactly.
18:52And I think they have a point there.
18:53They say, we don't want people in.
18:54I think they have a point there.
18:55I don't think it's fair
18:56that they introduced this possibility
18:58of buying yourself out of solidarity
19:00as part of this solidarity mechanism.
19:02So I think it would be much better,
19:04actually, if you would then
19:05require countries
19:07to actually accept migrants
19:08and hopefully also
19:10that the relocation
19:10can be done on a voluntary basis.
19:12So accept migrants
19:13from the point of view
19:14of the migrants.
19:15That would lead to a massive crisis
19:17of legitimacy.
19:18Brussels forcing migrants
19:20upon unwilling member states.
19:22Can you imagine the popular reaction?
19:24Well, I think that parties like mine
19:26would thrive.
19:28So, à la bonne heure.
19:29But it's also Brussels
19:31that has decided to use these rules
19:33about you having to apply for asylum
19:35in the first country
19:36that you are right to.
19:38And this is what has created
19:39the pressure on southern Europe.
19:41So whether we like it or not,
19:43this is a European question.
19:44OK, let's take a short break.
19:46We've got to take a short break
19:47here on The Ring.
19:48Please, however, stay with us.
19:50We'll be back very soon
19:51with more Political Punch.
20:02Welcome back to The Ring,
20:04Euronews' new weekly show.
20:05I'm joined by MEPs Charlie Weimers
20:07and Lee Anderson.
20:09And the idea here
20:10is to bring the European Parliament's
20:12debate to your couch.
20:14So what about you?
20:15That is the question.
20:16What do you think
20:17are the most important issues
20:19that the EU is facing?
20:21When asked about
20:22the most important issues
20:24facing the European Union
20:25in a poll,
20:26responders most frequently cited
20:28the war in Ukraine.
20:30And immigration followed
20:31as the second most significant concern.
20:34The international situation,
20:35more broadly,
20:36was mentioned by 90%
20:38of the responders,
20:38while security and defense
20:40appeared highlighted
20:41by 18%.
20:43Immigration, of course,
20:45Western Europe
20:46is living with the consequences
20:48of a liberal migration policy.
20:51And we need to deal with that now.
20:53We need to fix the problems
20:56that other politicians
20:58have caused
20:59through a very reckless policy
21:01in which they let in
21:03a whole lot of people
21:05who never really had
21:06asylum reasons.
21:07Is Europe changing too much?
21:09And when you hear
21:10Europe should stay Europe,
21:11does that mean Christian and what?
21:13Well, I mean,
21:15for instance,
21:16my party is among the biggest
21:18among people
21:21with an immigrant background
21:23in Sweden.
21:24So it has nothing
21:25with skin color to do.
21:26It has with a wish
21:29to have our countries
21:31remained what it used to be
21:33when people came here.
21:34I do not think
21:35that social cohesion
21:36is based on what religion
21:38or ethnicity you share.
21:40I think social cohesion
21:41is something absolutely
21:42that you can create
21:43in societies
21:44with well-functioning services
21:46to trust,
21:48to building this culture of trust,
21:49to having well-functioning services.
21:51And a big concern
21:52that we have now
21:53when we talk about
21:53these new migration policies
21:55from the EU side
21:56is that in many parts of these,
21:59Europe is taking steps away
22:02from a human rights-based
22:03way of making policies.
22:06How is this a violation
22:07to international law?
22:08I mean, Julia Maloney
22:09was not able
22:09to do her Albania plan
22:11because it was contrary
22:13to EU law.
22:15It was also contrary...
22:16She was successful
22:17to the extent that everyone
22:18wants to replicate it now.
22:19It was also...
22:20Exactly.
22:20But it doesn't take away
22:22the fundamental problems legally.
22:24So it was contrary
22:25to EU law.
22:26It's contrary to some
22:27human rights law as well.
22:28And now they are trying
22:29to change EU law
22:32to make it legal.
22:33We've got to move on.
22:34However, I want to ask
22:35you a final question.
22:36The Italian prime minister,
22:37she made a bet
22:38which said,
22:38OK, I know this will end up
22:39in court,
22:40but it is still worth the risk
22:42because of the signal
22:43that it will send.
22:44Is that something
22:44that you agree?
22:45Sometimes playing around
22:46with the law politically
22:47may be useful?
22:48She did the right thing
22:49and look what happens now.
22:51The EU is moving forward
22:54with the concept
22:55of return hubs.
22:56Even if it's illegal,
22:57even at the risk
22:57that it may be illegal.
22:58We're making it possible
23:00now for individual member states
23:01to make agreements
23:03with third countries
23:04to establish return hubs.
23:05Even if there's a possibility
23:06that it may be illegal.
23:08Well, it will be legal
23:10when we have voted.
23:12So it's on its way.
23:14And even if the European Parliament
23:16will accept these laws,
23:18that means a big step away
23:20from respecting human rights obligations
23:22and human rights safeguards,
23:24the EU member states
23:25will still be bound
23:26by international human rights treaties.
23:29So there will still be the issue
23:30of the European Convention
23:31on Human Rights, for example,
23:32that will still mean
23:34that countries have
23:35a legal responsibility
23:36for the people
23:37that seek asylum.
23:38So I do not think
23:40that the legal question
23:41will be dealt with
23:42at the point
23:44where the European Parliament
23:44accept these laws.
23:45I do think
23:46that there will still be
23:47big legal issues.
23:49Well, Leandre Jean
23:49keeps repeating
23:50non-refoulement.
23:52And that, in practice,
23:53Leandre Jean,
23:54means that you don't want
23:56to deport a convicted rapist
23:57or terrorist
23:58if there's a slight
23:59theoretical chance
24:01of mistreatment
24:02in the country of origin.
24:03My policy is very simple.
24:06If you rape someone,
24:08if you murder someone,
24:09you go home.
24:10If you rape someone,
24:11you've got to go?
24:11As I said,
24:12it is possible
24:13to deport convicted criminals.
24:15That is not the case.
24:16But the rate is very low.
24:18And it's not a theoretical.
24:20I mean,
24:20I really recommend
24:21to Charlie Weimers
24:21also to read
24:23some of the court cases
24:24from the European Court
24:25of Human Rights,
24:26especially on how
24:27they also actually
24:28have more liberal line
24:30on these cases
24:31than they did before.
24:32For me,
24:32the most important thing
24:33is that Europe
24:34stays true
24:35to the fundamental values
24:37of Europe.
24:38It is dangerous
24:39that in this time
24:40with rising extremism
24:41right forces,
24:43we see Orbán,
24:44we see Putin,
24:44we see all of these
24:45authoritarian leaders
24:46who do not respect
24:48international law,
24:50that do not respect
24:51human rights law,
24:52we are hearing
24:52the same voices
24:54in Europe saying
24:55we should not,
24:56we should just disregard
24:57what the human rights
24:58treatise said
24:59and forget about
25:00these fundamental principles.
25:01That is dangerous
25:02for all of us.
25:03We continue now
25:04into our fifth
25:04and final round,
25:05so hopefully
25:06you're ready.
25:11I'm going to ask you
25:12a set of questions
25:13and of course
25:14the answer,
25:15I know it's difficult
25:15at times,
25:16but it must be
25:16a yes or no answer.
25:18So let's see
25:19if we manage to.
25:21The first question,
25:21do return hubs
25:22outside of the European Union
25:23undermine the right
25:25to seek asylum?
25:27No,
25:28because it's about returns
25:29of failed asylum seekers.
25:32Yes.
25:33When you look at return hubs
25:35paid by the EU,
25:36yes or no,
25:37that's taxpayer money.
25:38Yes,
25:39potentially.
25:40No,
25:41it will be
25:42an extremely expensive
25:43and ineffective system.
25:45Human rights laws,
25:46are they becoming
25:47or preventing
25:48the European Union
25:49from protecting
25:50its own borders?
25:52Yes,
25:52it's stopping the EU
25:53from protecting
25:54its own citizens.
25:55So human rights
25:56have become a problem,
25:57yes or no?
25:58Human rights,
25:59international legislation
26:00has become a problem.
26:02No,
26:02states have the right
26:03to protect their own borders
26:04under international law.
26:06I think that is
26:06completely clear
26:07and nobody has contested that.
26:09Human rights law
26:10creates certain obligations
26:12on states
26:13to respect
26:14the fundamental rights
26:15of people seeking refuge.
26:17That is what
26:18we are discussing now.
26:19There's,
26:20however,
26:20a point which
26:21we want to treat
26:22very delicately
26:23and that is
26:23this tougher migration laws.
26:25Are they connected
26:26or could they be fueling
26:28the tragic accidents
26:29that we see
26:30in the Mediterranean?
26:31Do you see a connection,
26:32yes or no?
26:33We're taking a big risk
26:34that leads to deaths.
26:35No,
26:36it's the open borders
26:37that incentivizes
26:38deadly boats
26:40over the Mediterranean.
26:43Yes,
26:44it is the lack
26:44of legal pathways
26:45for migration
26:46that creates
26:47the situation
26:48in the Mediterranean.
26:49Some countries
26:49assimilate better
26:50than others,
26:50yes or no?
26:51Absolutely.
26:52I mean,
26:52that's a no-brainer.
26:54This is a very dangerous
26:55part of the extreme
26:56rhetoric
26:57where they're trying
26:57to present
26:58certain cultures
26:59as incompatible
27:00with each other.
27:01And this,
27:02I mean,
27:02this is also,
27:03it's the same rhetoric
27:04that has been used
27:05that was used
27:06on skin color
27:06used to be used
27:07and now we are
27:07talking about cultures.
27:09And final question,
27:10has your opponent
27:11in any way managed
27:12to change your mind,
27:14your views?
27:15No.
27:16Same question to you
27:17but I can guess
27:18the answer already.
27:19No, surprisingly not.
27:20Thank you very much
27:21for joining us here
27:23on The Ring
27:24on Euronews
27:25and as every week
27:26and as ever
27:27we want to hear
27:27from you
27:28and get your thoughts
27:29so please do write
27:30to us at
27:31The Ring
27:32at Euronews.com
27:34and of course
27:35see you soon
27:36on Euronews
27:37and hopefully
27:37we can get a handshake
27:38because that's also
27:39part of democracy.
27:40Thank you very much.
27:41Learning outcomes
27:55going down
27:55let's restrict migration
27:57but you do not
27:58actually present
27:59any solutions
28:00to the societal
28:01problems at hand.
28:03What are your solutions
28:04to fight the specific
28:05topic of crime
28:07or terrorism
28:08or the specific topic
28:09of unemployment
28:10or the specific topic
28:12of learning outcomes?
28:14It's not enough
28:15to just say
28:16that you want
28:16closed borders
28:17the borders will never
28:18be completely closed
28:19there will still
28:20be criminals
28:21we will still have
28:23learning outcomes
28:24that go down
28:24we will still have
28:25problems with unemployment
28:26so we need to be able
28:27to address
28:28these societal problems
28:29for what they are
28:30with real
28:31political solutions
28:32to them.
28:33Well I would invite you
28:35to read the statistics
28:37from Sweden
28:37showing that immigration
28:39has led to an increase
28:40of crime
28:40it's not me saying
28:41that it's the crime
28:42prevention agency
28:44in Sweden
28:45so the statistics
28:46is there
28:48you just have to bother
28:50to have a look at it
28:51also
28:52when it comes to
28:54the issue
28:55of putting everyone
28:57in the same basket
28:59no
28:59that's not the case
29:00we differ between
29:01those who build cars
29:03who contribute
29:04and those who burn cars
29:06and the question is
29:07here
29:07Leanderjohn
29:08why do you say
29:10no
29:10to the deportation
29:12of criminal foreigners
29:14because that's what
29:15you do
29:15if there's a slight
29:16theoretical risk
29:18for them
29:18in their home country
29:19why don't you want
29:20to send them home
29:21firstly
29:22we've actually had
29:23a lot of experts
29:24from Sweden
29:24coming to Finland
29:25saying
29:26do not repeat
29:28the mistakes
29:28we have done
29:29in Sweden
29:29when it comes
29:30for example
29:31segregation
29:31do not create
29:33societies
29:33where you have
29:34working class
29:35families
29:36living in separate
29:37areas
29:37without any
29:38kind of
29:39perspective
29:40of social mobility
29:42of being able
29:43to create the life
29:43that they want
29:44for themselves
29:44when it comes
29:46to deportation
29:47of criminals
29:47my party
29:49has not said no
29:50it is possible
29:51to deport
29:52offenders
29:54that have committed
29:55serious crimes
29:56as long as
29:57the principle
29:58of non reforma
29:59is respected
29:59so that is
30:01the only
30:01kind of limit
30:02I would say
30:03legally
30:04to when it's not
30:04possible to do it
30:05and that
30:06of course
30:07I think we both agree
30:09we need to respect
30:10but we have not
30:11said a categorical
30:11no to deportations
30:13of criminals
30:14we have to
30:15now move on
30:16in the show
30:17it's called
30:17The Ring
30:17so let's take
30:18gloves off
30:18now of course
30:24as we always say
30:25it is time
30:26for our viewers
30:26to get a real taste
30:27of the European
30:28Parliament
30:29and what it looks
30:30like from within
30:31you both
30:31obviously are elected
30:32to protect
30:33your constituents
30:33and also ask
30:35each other
30:35tough questions
30:36and bring up
30:37tough issues
30:38so now I will
30:39give you the floor
30:39so you can ask
30:40each other questions
30:41and I know
30:42I cut you off
30:42so Mr. Viners
30:43I will give you
30:44the first question
30:44you have the floor
30:45Paris cancelled
30:46its New Year's Eve
30:48celebrations
30:50the Christmas market
30:52here in Strasbourg
30:53looks like
30:54it's under siege
30:57a fortress
30:57families are afraid
30:59to go out
31:00is that a price
31:01worth paying
31:02for Europeans
31:03in order to preserve
31:04liberal asylum policies
31:06that is a price
31:07that we are paying
31:08for the rise
31:08of extremism
31:09in Europe
31:10and we see it both
31:12there is
31:12Islamist extremism
31:13there is
31:15far right
31:16extremism
31:17extremism
31:17we have seen
31:18examples of
31:19terrorism attacks
31:20of both of these
31:21and I do honestly
31:22think that
31:23if we
31:24engage
31:25in this kind of
31:26debate
31:26that the extreme
31:27and the far right
31:28is doing
31:28where they kind of
31:30put this shadow
31:30of doubt
31:31on every single
31:33member of our
31:34societies
31:35that have a background
31:36from somewhere else
31:37whose family
31:38has a background
31:39from somewhere else
31:40we do not actually
31:41fight the root
31:42causes of extremism
31:44we make it worse
31:45so I think we should
31:46let the police
31:47do its work
31:48when it comes
31:49to combating
31:49terrorism
31:50and crime
31:51and our
31:52responsibility
31:53as decision makers
31:54and policy makers
31:55is to make sure
31:57that we do not
31:57create more division
31:58in our societies
31:59but less
32:00and now of course
32:02it's your turn
32:03for a question
32:04so Charlie Weimers
32:06I'm interested
32:08to know
32:09if you would say
32:10that Morocco
32:11Egypt
32:12and Tunisia
32:13are safe countries
32:15for example
32:16for people
32:17belonging to
32:18the LGBT community
32:19or for journalists
32:21or political dissidents
32:23these are safe countries
32:25they're not at war
32:26they have
32:27no situation
32:29in which
32:29a major persecution
32:31is ongoing
32:32so we should be able
32:34to send back migrants
32:35coming from there
32:36because those migrants
32:37are generally not
32:39fleeing for their lives
32:40so you're saying
32:42it's not an ideal place
32:44perhaps for your lifestyle
32:45but if you do not have
32:47the right to be legal
32:47in Europe
32:48you should go back
32:49to Morocco
32:49that's what I'm saying
32:51and this has been
32:52the problem
32:52for many years
32:53that people have been
32:54coming to Europe
32:55not because
32:57they fled a war
32:58but because they
33:00looked for a better life
33:02they came from
33:03safe countries of origin
33:04but persecution
33:05may not be a war
33:06she's talking about
33:07the LGBTQ plus community
33:08you don't have to be a war
33:10to feel persecuted
33:10I understand that
33:11it's not optimal
33:12for an LGBTQ person
33:15to be in Morocco
33:16but we cannot be
33:19the destination
33:20of all people
33:21living under
33:22non-western regimes
33:24that's not how
33:25it can work
33:25and we also have
33:26the situation
33:27where people
33:28pass through
33:29safe countries
33:30on their way
33:31to countries
33:32such as Germany
33:33Finland, Sweden
33:34and that can't stand
33:35that's why
33:36it's so important
33:37what the commission
33:39has now proposed
33:40and what we're
33:41dealing with now
33:42in the parliament
33:43to establish
33:44these safe countries
33:45of origin
33:45so you're saying
33:46it's not ideal
33:47but it's also not
33:47Europe's problem
33:48yes
33:49I think there is
33:51a huge contradiction
33:52here when it comes
33:53to the rhetoric
33:53of the extreme
33:54and the far right
33:55because on the one hand
33:56you're kind of saying
33:57that everybody
33:57you know
33:58that these countries
33:59these cultures
33:59that these people
34:00that are coming here
34:01are dangerous
34:02and they do not
34:03respect
34:04I mean this is
34:04your rhetoric
34:05this is how you talk
34:06not me
34:06and they do not
34:08respect the rules
34:09of our societies
34:09they do not respect
34:11women's rights
34:12for example
34:12or the rights
34:13of LGBT community
34:14but then when it comes
34:15to EU legislation
34:16you're all of a sudden
34:17saying that yes
34:18it's completely safe
34:19for people who belong
34:20to the LGBTQI community
34:21or for journalists
34:22political dissidents
34:23young women
34:24to go back
34:25to these countries
34:25no need to be
34:26very specific
34:27when it comes
34:27to their asylum claims
34:28and this is also
34:30actually contradictory
34:31to what the
34:31European Parliament
34:32itself has said
34:33that has adopted
34:34several resolutions
34:36concerning the human rights
34:38abuses and problems
34:39in for example
34:40Egypt and Tunisia
34:41you talk about violence
34:43and some of the violence
34:44that some women
34:44may face
34:45if they have to go
34:46back to countries
34:46that you say
34:47are not safe
34:47some argue however
34:49women in Europe
34:50and I'm sure you would
34:51agree with this
34:52have become less safe
34:53as a result
34:54of uncontrolled
34:55illegal migration
34:56what do you respond
34:57to that
34:57is our fair point
34:58I think this is exactly
34:58the contradiction
34:59of their rhetoric
35:00I mean I have always said
35:02that we have patriarchal
35:04structures everywhere
35:05so it's a patriarchy
35:06I don't know any society
35:07that is free
35:08unfortunately
35:09is free from violence
35:11against women
35:11that are free
35:12from patriarchal structures
35:13but the foreign
35:14extreme right
35:15try to present it
35:16as this is something
35:17that is coming to Europe
35:18from elsewhere
35:19and now at the same time
35:20migration is a patriarchy
35:21that's a problem
35:22I would say so
35:23because do you know
35:24any society
35:25that is free
35:25of those problems
35:26I do not
35:27unfortunately
35:27I mean there are
35:28countries and regimes
35:29such as the Taliban
35:30regime where it's
35:31of course
35:32much much worse
35:34but I also come
35:35from a country
35:35with very high numbers
35:37when it comes to
35:38violence against women
35:39and domestic violence
35:40so trying to say
35:41that this is a problem
35:42only in some places
35:43is not correct
35:45okay well
35:46just for a second
35:47let's stop here
35:48because I want to
35:49bring in now
35:50a new voice
35:51and now in reaction
35:56to the European Council's
35:58decision to reform
35:59the EU migration pact
36:00which you alluded to
36:01and introduces now
36:02a solidarity pool
36:04the Hungarian Prime Minister
36:05Viktor Orbán
36:06said on social media
36:08that quote
36:09the latest Brazilian decision
36:11requires that
36:12from next July
36:13Hungary must
36:14either take migrants
36:15in from other European countries
36:17or pay for them
36:19I want to make it
36:20absolutely clear
36:21and that's a quote
36:21for once and for all
36:23that as long as Hungary
36:24has a national government
36:26we will not implement
36:27this outrageous decision
36:30now my question to you is
36:32does Viktor Orbán
36:33have a point?
36:35yeah well
36:35Sweden is among
36:36those countries
36:37supposed to take
36:38the most migrants
36:40through this
36:41solidarity mechanism
36:42and I wonder
36:43has the commission
36:44even looked at
36:45how many migrants
36:47Sweden has taken
36:48during the last decades
36:50no they have not
36:51they have not
36:52taken that into account
36:53so instead
36:54we will have to
36:55pay in
36:56to Brussels
36:57a fee
36:58for not
36:59receiving
37:00forced migration
37:01upon Sweden
37:02I think that's a
37:03principle in breach
37:04with subsidiarity
37:05that's why I voted
37:07against that principle
37:08and that's why
37:09I claim that
37:10it's morally wrong
37:11the Greeks
37:12they'll say
37:12we need help
37:13and that means
37:13either financial compensation
37:15or a real quota
37:15how do you respond to that?
37:17that should be managed
37:18through the ordinary
37:19EU budget
37:20they should get help
37:21they should get
37:22EU financing
37:23for border barriers
37:25which they are
37:25not being provided
37:27with at the moment
37:28which my opponent
37:30is against
37:31so that we could offer
37:32but not by
37:33implementing a system
37:35in which Sweden
37:36is supposed to
37:37accept migrants
37:39by dictate
37:39from Brussels
37:40and on this point
37:41either you
37:42take a quota
37:43of people
37:43or you pay
37:45to facilitate
37:45obviously
37:46financial assistance
37:47some would argue
37:48the issue
37:49is that
37:49that's not really
37:50how it works
37:50the core problem
37:51is the number
37:52of arrivals
37:53to deal with it
37:54you need to bring
37:54that migration
37:55this migration pact
37:56will not work
37:57in real life
37:58will it?
37:59I think it depends
38:00very much
38:01on what other types
38:02of policies
38:03and actions
38:03the EU will do
38:04in terms of migration
38:05like how we succeed
38:06in terms with
38:07legal pathways
38:08for example
38:09as long as there
38:10are no legal pathways
38:11we will continue
38:12to see irregular flows
38:14of migrants
38:14doing these very
38:16dangerous trips
38:16over the Mediterranean
38:17and I sincerely hope
38:19that Sweden
38:20will not walk down
38:21the path of Hungary
38:22where you openly
38:23disobey
38:24binding EU law
38:25so I think
38:26that this solidarity
38:27mechanism
38:27is a good part
38:28of this asylum
38:30and migration
38:31policy pact
38:32that was decided
38:32last mandate
38:33because at the moment
38:35the biggest pressure
38:37of course
38:38is directed
38:39at these countries
38:40in the southern part
38:41of Europe
38:41just because of
38:42their geographical location
38:43but they don't want
38:44the money
38:44they want people out
38:45and the countries
38:46are the day
38:46they say
38:47we don't want people in
38:48I think they have a point there
38:48I don't think it's fair
38:49that they introduced
38:50this possibility
38:51of buying yourself
38:52out of solidarity
38:53as part of this
38:54solidarity mechanism
38:55so I think it would be
38:56much better actually
38:57if you would then
38:58require countries
39:00to actually accept migrants
39:02and hopefully also
39:03that the relocation
39:04can be done
39:04on a voluntary basis
39:05so accept migrants
39:06from the point of view
39:07of the migrants
39:08that would lead to
39:09a massive crisis
39:10of legitimacy
39:11Brussels forcing migrants
39:14upon unwilling member states
39:15can you imagine
39:16the popular reaction
39:17well I think that
39:19parties like mine
39:20would thrive
39:20so à la bonheur
39:22but it's also
39:23it is also Brussels
39:25that has decided
39:26to use these rules
39:27about you having
39:28to apply for asylum
39:29in the first country
39:30that you are right to
39:31and this is what
39:32has created the pressure
39:33on southern Europe
39:34so whether we like it
39:35or not
39:36this is a European question
39:37okay let's take a short break
39:39we've got to take a short break
39:40here on the ring
39:41please however
39:42stay with us
39:43we'll be back
39:44very soon
39:44with more political punch

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