- 6 weeks ago
Christmas music may only dominate a few weeks a year, but its impact on the music business lasts for decades. Guy Moot, CEO and co-chair of Warner Chappell Music, and Carianne Marshall, COO and co-chair, join host Kristin Robinson on Billboard On the Record to break down why holiday songs are some of the most valuable assets in any music catalog, why writing a timeless Christmas hit is so difficult and how industry traditions around holiday albums have shifted from mandatory releases to strategic singles. They discuss the evolution from cover culture to artist-driven branding, the role of songwriter camps, and why evergreen holiday songs often travel further than the places they were written. From December chart freezes to the renewed push for trusted brands and long-term fan connection, this conversation explores how Christmas music continues to shape careers, catalogs and the modern music economy.
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MusicTranscript
00:00Holiday records make over $177 million a year in the U.S.
00:05Not bad for a genre that comes and goes from the Billboard charts after about a month of listening.
00:10This unique, seasonal genre of music has become big business,
00:13especially in our era of music streaming,
00:15where you don't even have to buy a holiday hit in order to play it at your next Christmas party.
00:20To dive into the business of Christmas music,
00:22I'm joined today by two of the most powerful executives in music publishing,
00:25Guy Moot and Carrie Ann Marshall, the CEO and COO of Warner Chappell.
00:34Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sick Bird Productions.
00:39As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson,
00:41and today on the show, we are diving into the business behind your favorite holiday hits.
00:46We all know the classics, your Jingle Bell Rocks, your Rockin' Around the Christmas Trees,
00:51All I Want for Christmas is You.
00:52So, these songs are not just culturally relevant,
00:55but they make a ton of money in royalties year after year after year,
00:59even though most of them came out decades ago.
01:02For many, it's seen as the ultimate evergreen hit, pun intended.
01:06But it's not easy to mint a new holiday hit in 2025.
01:10According to Luminate, much of the royalties from Christmas music
01:12go to a relatively small number of hit songs.
01:15The money and the listenership is more concentrated with the top Christmas hits
01:19than it typically is in other genres.
01:21For example, in 2023, the top 50 holiday recordings accounted for 35% of all holiday streaming.
01:29Compare that to the top 50 pop tracks, which only accounted for 12% of all pop streaming.
01:34So, it's clear that basically, Christmas music is go big or go home.
01:39You're either making an extremely popular Christmas album like Michael Buble's,
01:43or you're making an album that dissolves into the vast landscape of other holiday music.
01:48But of course, the small chance at creating the next Christmas classic
01:51is still enough to get artists working on new material every single season.
01:55And before we bring in Guy and Carrie-Anne to break it all down for us,
01:58I just want to warn our regular viewers of On The Record that we are going to be taking
02:01a slight break during the holidays, but we'll be back in mid-January to give you
02:05even more great interviews and insights about all things music industry.
02:09And I also want to note that for the holidays, we are sending you all off with an extra special
02:13bonus episode this week.
02:14So, we have not one, but two interviews, one with Guy and Carrie-Anne, and one with Charlie
02:19Puth, who also came by the studio this week to break down the sound of Christmas music.
02:24So, be sure to check that out if you liked this episode.
02:27Okay, enough housekeeping.
02:29Let's get on with the show.
02:31Please welcome to On The Record, Guy Moot and Carrie-Anne Marshall of Warner Chapel.
02:35Guy, Carrie-Anne, thank you so much for coming to On The Record.
02:38Happy to be here.
02:38My pleasure.
02:39I wanted to start this off by talking about favorite Christmas music, favorite songs.
02:44Is there anything that immediately comes to mind?
02:47Guy, I'll start with you.
02:49Donny Hathaway, This Christmas.
02:51Ooh, okay.
02:52Soul, funky number, livens up some of that more traditional stuff, you know, some of the
02:58hymns that we grew up with in the UK and stuff like that.
03:00It's a funk soul jam, basically.
03:03Carrie-Anne, what about you?
03:04Nat King Cole's Christmas album.
03:06That is like a holiday tradition for my family.
03:09And a little Elvis Christmas in there for my dad.
03:11Oh, okay.
03:12But the two of those.
03:14So does Elvis have, like, all I know is Blue Christmas.
03:17Is there, like, full Christmas albums?
03:19Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of, like, the traditional ones in there, but there's, like,
03:22yeah, there's a few others.
03:24But really Nat King Cole and, like, a lot of those classics always on repeat.
03:28Are any of those in your catalog at Warner Chapel?
03:32Like, do you all represent any of them?
03:33No, I'm just going purely on personal taste there.
03:35We are really blessed with some of the best Christmas songs in the world, though.
03:38Yeah.
03:39So we're very lucky to have, I don't know, Frosty the Snowman.
03:43Yeah, yeah.
03:44Here comes Santa Claus.
03:45George Michael's Last Christmas.
03:46So we want the ultimate Christmas song.
03:49So we have a treasure trove of good stuff in that department.
03:53You know what's, like, really, I think about this a lot, though.
03:56Some of the biggest Christmas songs, like, we look after part of Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow.
04:02Biggest Christmas songs actually are really non-denominational and weren't even written by Christian people.
04:08Yeah.
04:08So you think about a lot of these songs, Winter Wonderland.
04:12Yeah.
04:12You know, they're not really, they don't even have Christmas in the title at all.
04:15They just, like, kind of invoke a feeling.
04:17And I think that's really interesting, too, about the, I don't know, I think about that.
04:22It sort of stretches beyond the holiday itself.
04:26Yeah, it's more seasonal.
04:28Yeah, that makes sense.
04:30I love, like, a contemporary Christmas song, like, Last Christmas Wham.
04:33Like, how can you really beat that?
04:34Totally.
04:35But it's polarizing, that one.
04:37I mean, that's 1984.
04:40Okay.
04:40That George wrote that after a Christmas breakup.
04:44But, and then I think there really, there hasn't been a recent big, big Christmas song.
04:49And I think that's a challenge for songwriters to try and mash out.
04:52Most probably Mariah Carey.
04:54Yeah.
04:55Yeah, that's 90s, right?
04:56That's 90s fool.
04:58Ariana Grande.
04:59That was like, but that's 10 years ago now.
05:01I mean, Kelly Clarkson had an original Christmas song that did quite well, but that was probably
05:05aughts.
05:07Yeah.
05:07Yeah.
05:08Yeah, but like, that's actually like one of the things that I wanted to talk to you guys
05:11about, because I feel like, like, we're in this conversation talking about Christmas
05:15music, the business behind it, the industry behind it.
05:18And to me, Christmas music really does feel like a songwriter-based industry, because these
05:23songs are getting, if it's a hit, getting covered over and over and over by different recording
05:28artists, but the songwriters get paid every time.
05:30Sure.
05:31But it's still, it feels really hard to get one of those evergreen.
05:36I think it's one of the most difficult things.
05:37It's like the Holy Grail to write a new contemporary Christmas hit.
05:41And I guess people want that nostalgia.
05:44You grow up with those songs, you pay it to your children, and it symbolizes Christmas.
05:49But I mean, people try.
05:50And in fact, we just actually had a writer's camp where we have 50 of our writers in different
05:55cities put together a Christmas album, which we actually just released.
05:59That isn't a shameless plug, but it was like a bit of a shameless plug.
06:04But I mean, it was also for synchronization.
06:07You know, again, when you're sort of asking, people asking for the same titles, which is
06:11kind of great for our business.
06:12But I think to try and write new Christmas songs is challenging.
06:16But ultimately, it's a huge prize if you manage that.
06:19It's interesting, too, because I think about some of the songs that are evergreens that
06:24aren't really even Christmas songs, but tend to get licensed more around Christmas, like
06:29What a Wonderful World.
06:31It's like a really big one that gets licensed for a ton of holiday ads.
06:35And that's not a Christmas song.
06:37Yeah.
06:37You know?
06:38Hallelujah is the same way.
06:40Hallelujah started getting more and more associated with Christmas, even though that doesn't quite
06:44make sense.
06:45Because that song really doesn't have much to do with Christmas.
06:47No, but I think it's like kind of that feeling.
06:49And the other thing I think is sort of funny.
06:51I know we were riffing before we started a little bit about the like British American
06:56thing.
06:56But I think that there's a there's no, but it's so interesting when the regional hits,
07:01right?
07:01Like there's a huge, huge Christmas song written by a Canadian that is huge in the UK, but I
07:08literally never heard it until I got Driving Home for Christmas.
07:12That's Chris Ria.
07:13Fantastic song, which we do publish, actually.
07:16Has anybody heard of Slade?
07:19No.
07:20I mean, that is the Christmas party anthem.
07:24Okay.
07:25Merry Christmas.
07:26Like, is it spelled like S-L-E-I?
07:28S-A-L.
07:29They were like a glam, a British glam rock band from the 70s.
07:33And they wrote a Christmas song that is like anthemic.
07:37It was like every office party, most of you in the UK.
07:40That sounds like essentially the Christmas equivalent of like Angels by Robbie Williams.
07:45Like not a big hit here.
07:46I mean, it's not like it wasn't a hit at all, but like it is a British classic.
07:50It's a few drinks, sing-along anthem, which I'm not going to embarrass myself in this podcast
07:55and try a rendition of it, but go and play it.
07:58Okay.
07:58Yeah.
07:59You'll be singing along.
08:00But it is so funny when you think about that, because I remember talking to some folks in
08:03the office and I was like, no, I don't.
08:05I don't know the song, Driving Home for Christmas.
08:07And it was such a big hit, probably like this one you're talking about too.
08:12And it like just didn't make it over.
08:15I don't know.
08:16I find that like interesting in general when songs that like don't even originate in the
08:20country or territory where they're the biggest have an impact somewhere else.
08:25I just think it's fascinating.
08:26Greg Lake, you know, I believe in Father Christmas, no?
08:30Wait, Father Christmas?
08:31Yes, Father Christmas.
08:33Okay.
08:33See, I think that's what differentiates it.
08:35Like Americans would never say Father Christmas.
08:37Father Christmas, really.
08:38No.
08:39Except for maybe like 50 years ago.
08:40I don't know.
08:40I don't even.
08:41It feels like a very old term.
08:42That's the title of the song, but, so I'm doing it accurately, but what would you say?
08:46Santa?
08:47Yes.
08:47Yeah.
08:47Okay.
08:48I mean, it can be Santa as well.
08:51Yeah, Santa Claus.
08:52It's fairly fictitional.
08:53Well, let's not even go down that road, but you know.
08:55No, but I think we were talking about this too, because like here comes Santa Claus, really
08:59big song here in the States and not quite as big outside the States.
09:03That is interesting.
09:04I could go on.
09:05Wizard.
09:06Wizard.
09:07Remember Wizard?
09:08No.
09:08No.
09:09Okay.
09:09Don't remember it at all.
09:10So, it's like the Mariah Carey, All I Want for Christmas is You, truly a global hit.
09:15That's global.
09:16Yeah.
09:17I mean, I can see already like in the UK charts, and I'm not just specifically talking, obviously
09:21I live here in America, but that's my homeland, but I can already see Wham and Mariah
09:26Carey starting to go up the charts.
09:29I think that's around already in the top five.
09:33You've got Taylor at one.
09:35We're hoping Ray would get to number one.
09:37Oh, where's my husband?
09:38But I'm actually, yes, but I'm worried.
09:41Well, it's a win-win because we look after the Wham catalog.
09:45So, Last Christmas is starting to get to here.
09:49And Last Christmas, I think two years in a row was number one in the UK.
09:53But Mariah gets very close.
09:55Those are definitely the two most dominant songs.
09:58I have a question for you, Guy.
10:00Because there's no Thanksgiving in the UK, do people start playing Christmas music earlier
10:06and like decorating and stuff earlier?
10:08That is a great question.
10:09I think the Christmas decorations in the shop go up after Halloween.
10:12I mean, that's a retail thing.
10:14But I think as soon as you hit December, like we actually have a tradition, and I say
10:20to my children, like it's unlucky to play Christmas songs when it's not Christmas.
10:25But December 1st, which we just crossed, it's open season for Christmas songs.
10:31Yeah.
10:31Okay.
10:31How do you feel about Christmas music after Christmas?
10:34Can't listen to it.
10:34No.
10:35Like December 26th, you're done.
10:36No, that's just not right.
10:37I mean, no, no, no.
10:38Maybe you get up until New Year's.
10:40You will accept it up until New Year.
10:42But after that, not acceptable.
10:45It's like leaving up the Christmas lights a little longer.
10:47Yeah.
10:47My parents do like Epiphany, which is like 13 days after Christmas.
10:52And then everything comes down.
10:54So I don't know.
10:55Not everyone follows it.
10:56They're also actually religious, and some people are just celebrating Christmas.
10:58We have 12 days of Christmas when you're meant to take the decorations.
11:01I know.
11:01It's the same thing, I guess.
11:03It would seem 12, 13.
11:05I mean, kind of a similar thing, I guess, right?
11:09You've got to stretch it a little bit.
11:10I do love the holiday season.
11:11I think it's pretty amazing.
11:13I like the festive feeling and all of that.
11:16And I think it's so interesting.
11:17So as Guy mentioned, we looked after last Christmas, and our creative services team did this really interesting marketing idea last year.
11:25And they had the members of Wham go do a spontaneous sing-along in London.
11:32Do you remember where it was, exactly?
11:34King's Cross.
11:34King's Cross, and it kind of went viral and helped.
11:38We did all this other kind of marketing around it, but it was a really fun thing to sort of get the group involved in the song that is obviously such a big thing.
11:48It's hard in a synchronization sense, I guess.
11:51You know, brands and advertising, I just start thinking about Christmas.
11:54You've got to start thinking about it.
11:55When do you think?
11:56Summer is when the sync team starts to get briefs.
11:58So they have to listen to Christmas songs at that time.
12:03But you work far in advance for that, I guess.
12:06And there's also a lot of kudos in those adverts and getting the right one.
12:10Well, for TV season, I remember when there was a TV season and it was more predictable.
12:19They really had to, music supervisors had to temp songs in much earlier than even ads.
12:24So it would be like July, July, August.
12:28And if you didn't get a song in, or a request for a song in a TV show by then, it wasn't going to happen for that fall season.
12:37That's interesting.
12:37So when do you think most artists start recording their Christmas albums?
12:41Is it also around that same time if they plan to release it around November, December?
12:46I guess you have to think about it.
12:47Again, I was just, I was reading about George and Michael's Last Christmas.
12:51He wrote it in February and I think recorded it in June.
12:54I guess he had to break up at Christmas and then wrote about it in February.
12:59Took a little time just to get over it.
13:00And then, you know, obviously pulled it out into an amazing song.
13:05So yeah, I imagine, so you have to start, might as well be before the summer, I would imagine.
13:10Yeah.
13:10And how has like the process of people trying to create Christmas albums changed over time?
13:15Like now that we're in the streaming economy,
13:17I feel like the idea of creating a full cohesive Christmas album might not be quite as important anymore.
13:21It's more about getting on playlists and having like a big song.
13:24Are you seeing more people go for singles or are people still going for their full albums?
13:30No, I think it's more songs.
13:32It's like the writing camp that we did too.
13:33It's none of those artists were actually putting together full Christmas albums.
13:37It was like a compilation.
13:38So they were all contributing songs for this compilation that we released.
13:42It wasn't about doing Christmas albums.
13:44I think it's one of the ultimate challenges.
13:46I've seen a lot of people's careers kind of like come to a, I wouldn't say an end, but a decline.
13:52Because I think if you get the Christmas song wrong and you're going on TV,
13:55I'm going to perform my Christmas song.
13:56No one likes your Christmas song.
13:58It's a tough thing if you're an established artist.
14:01And the danger of also adding sleigh bells to anything is, you know, should come with a public warning.
14:08You know what, that's really funny though.
14:10I mean, you know, it's really cliche, isn't it?
14:12So it's hard to capture that without being cliche.
14:15Again, people want a bit of nostalgia.
14:18But I think it's possible.
14:20I think Sia released a pretty good Christmas album a couple of years ago.
14:23I thought it was good.
14:24But again, I think people tend to veer to nostalgia.
14:27So maybe those newer songs need time to age, or again, need the placement, or need to just percolate somewhere.
14:36You know about, like you mentioned sleigh bells, and I'm thinking about like when I used to do synchronization a number of years ago.
14:41And we would have, I'm thinking primarily of my time early at songs.
14:47And we would have some like really great, like uplifting, positive sort of songs.
14:54And we would have versions recorded with sleigh bells, so we could pitch them as holiday songs.
15:01Because the lyrics were, you know, they would lend themselves to, you know, the spirit of giving, or, you know, being together, or family, or something.
15:11And so we would try to just like add a little bit of something.
15:14So you've got to log in the catalog and just put sleigh bells.
15:16Yeah.
15:16Yeah.
15:17Y'all got to bring that to Warner Chapel.
15:19That seems like an easy fix.
15:21You're a sleigh bell session person.
15:23You're also only working at certain times of the year, right?
15:25That's something I could do.
15:26I could definitely be the sleigh bell person if you guys need me.
15:29Just let me know.
15:30Well, sometimes though, that'll happen.
15:31That'll come as a request from either a music supervisor or somebody on the production side, an ad agency maybe.
15:38They'll say like, can we tweak a song a little bit?
15:42Can we add something?
15:43We add strings.
15:44Can we add sleigh bells?
15:46Sleigh bells.
15:46Yes, but it's not just for Christmas.
15:48It's definitely for all sorts of like, you know, it's really about changing the feeling of the song.
15:55Yeah.
15:55And have you ever worked on a sync that like totally changed the life of a holiday song that like really brought it to new heights when it was placed in a film, TV show, or ad?
16:04Yes, but nothing that is like not in the days where things are now like going viral.
16:11Before that, it would definitely, there are some songs that are, you know, I don't even know if they're available for streaming now that had, you know, couple uses here and there and had, you know, indie bands with a few albums sold.
16:25And they would, you know, extend the life of the album when we were talking about album cycles.
16:29But I think now one of the things that's really kind of exciting is there aren't cycles so much anymore.
16:35So if we have great songs like the ones that are folks recorded now or any of these, you know, holiday classics or standards that we're talking about, like there's no time frame anymore.
16:46Part of that is awesome because there's nothing is like as stale, you know, it doesn't matter as much.
16:54Part of it is really hard because you're competing against everything, not just the things that are released within a certain amount of time.
17:00Yeah. Is that because of streaming basically like the infinite shelf, infinite possibilities of what you can listen to?
17:05Yeah, absolutely.
17:06But that was kind of like what makes that trust in curation like even more important.
17:10So you talk about the curation from playlists or for, you know, where people go to find music, they like specific playlists on a, I don't know, streaming service.
17:20Or if you're talking about a relationship that our sync team may have with a music supervisor, a shortcut into somebody knowing their taste.
17:27It's like I think that we're thinking a lot more about, I don't know who those trusted curators are, whether they're like actually personal or if it's a brand again.
17:38We were talking the other day about A24 and how A24 has this like incredible brand that's trusted and how, you know, people used to have trusted and it happens to a certain extent now with record labels, certainly.
17:54But it was like that brand, that trusted brand.
17:58And I think people are kind of coming back to what is it that we, how do we do that?
18:03Like it was radio stations for a while.
18:05I know if I listen to this radio station, I am going to hear music I like.
18:11Like what's the version of that now?
18:13I think people are kind of seeking their communities that way.
18:15And so curation is becoming more important.
18:17The stream is great for Christmas.
18:18Otherwise you would have been up in your loft or your garage, garage, going, where did I put that Bing Crosby album?
18:27You know what I mean?
18:27Oh my gosh, I used to do that all the time.
18:29You'd mostly have to buy it once every year, but now you've got a whole just array of access to some of the best Christmas songs and some of the lesser known ones as well.
18:39Yeah.
18:40Yeah.
18:40I mean, yeah, it does really feel like playlisting and almost passive listening is very important for Christmas music.
18:45I feel like oftentimes when I'll turn to Christmas music is if I have people over and it's around the holidays, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to go to Spotify and click, you know, Christmas pop or Christmas jazz and just walk away.
18:58It's Christmas everything.
18:59I was listening to Christmas reggae last night.
19:02Christmas reggae.
19:02Yeah.
19:02Okay.
19:03Okay.
19:03Any hits?
19:04Treasure trove.
19:05Okay.
19:05There's actually a version of Donnie Hathaway's song.
19:07There's Christmas reggae.
19:09Yeah.
19:09Yeah.
19:09So.
19:10Okay.
19:10Okay.
19:11I'll have to check that out.
19:12You know, it's so funny.
19:13My, my son who's 12 said to me the other day, which is like so random, he goes, turn on 103.5.
19:22I'm like coast 103, but you don't even know what the radio is.
19:25Like he doesn't listen to the radio and he's like, they're playing Christmas songs.
19:29And I said, but I can play, we can listen to them on Apple music or Spotify or whatever.
19:34And he's like, no, I want to, I want to hear the radio.
19:37I said, how do you even know about this?
19:39And he goes, the bus driver on the way to school was playing Christmas songs on coast
19:44103.5.
19:46Wow.
19:47And I'm like, that is wild.
19:49Yeah.
19:51Isn't that funny though?
19:52It's just like what gets sticky?
19:54Some of our own playlists to play next time.
19:56And then just, you know, yeah, it's an influencer.
19:58Yeah, totally.
19:59We can infiltrate that bus, get a program, the bus.
20:02I imagine that radio is still a huge driver for Christmas music and especially for publishing.
20:07Yeah.
20:09And like the value that it brings to the songwriters who wrote those songs.
20:12But also, I mean, I imagine also a lot of Christmas music is so traditional that it's
20:17like in the public domain at this point too.
20:19Like if you go back to your hymns, like your very, very classic stuff, I guess you don't
20:23really need to pay anyone on publishing.
20:25No, but you could copyright a new version.
20:27Yeah.
20:27Like an arrangement.
20:28Mm-hmm.
20:28Yeah.
20:29Okay.
20:29Okay.
20:30And so we, you know, we'll see some of that, like a twist on, you know, an old, we'll come
20:37all you faithful or something.
20:39It's a funny time because obviously it's harder for new artists if you're, or if you're trying
20:42to break a record at that time of year, because all of a sudden December comes and I think
20:46most people try and avoid that, that spot, but yeah.
20:49Yeah.
20:50It does feel like this is the zone where if you're trying to get a song to number one,
20:54you're now competing with like, you know, Jingle Bell Rock.
20:59And I was just looking at our charts from the week of December 6th and you start to see
21:05it all climb up.
21:07The Taylor Swift song is still number one on the Billboard Hot 100, but I mean, I wouldn't
21:12be shocked if by the time this episode comes out that Christmas music's at the top.
21:16Um, but I'm curious, so for songwriters, I know that y'all did this camp, but are camps
21:22common in this situation where you're trying to create new Christmas hits or create new
21:27Christmas recordings?
21:28Yeah, I have to give credit to our A&R and creative teams.
21:31I think part of it was just, yeah, like I say, let's have a go at creating brand new Christmas
21:36hits.
21:37Um, but then also some of it is like, how do we create songs that are also very syncable?
21:42Um, cause there's always going to be a huge demand for, for campaigns and adverts using
21:47Christmas music and yeah, sure.
21:49Give them some more options.
21:50Uh, we say so.
21:52It sounds really strong.
21:53Some of it is obviously more, much more contemporary, contemporary pop, different styles, but yeah,
21:58it, I think they had a lot of fun doing it.
22:00Like I say, it's kind of like it, I think if you seriously go looking for that Christmas
22:05hit, you may fail.
22:06I think it's a lot of effort to put into something that's so kind of like difficult to actually
22:12hit the nail on the head and compete with the nostalgia of catalog, but it's a lot of
22:17fun in a writing time to say, Hey, let's go and write some, like, you know, some kind
22:21of Christmas songs.
22:22And I think that comes across in the music and, um, great.
22:25If we get a couple of sync payments, the, you know, sync fees that the camp's been paid
22:29for as well, but everybody had a lot of fun.
22:31I'm sure.
22:32But I think also, like when we think about camps, it's not one dimensional, right?
22:37Um, so this one in particular is not a ton of pressure.
22:41It was trying to like land a huge cut on some big pop stars record.
22:45They're having fun, they're writing, and also they're the artists in the session.
22:49They're building community, having fun.
22:52And really like, I think as we were saying before, if there's not a song that has like
22:57is timestamped in a way, it can be pitched or used in all sorts of areas for a long,
23:04long time.
23:04Well, I said, it's tough to write a new Christmas hit, but I think they're there and they're
23:08there on streaming services forever.
23:10Yeah.
23:10So somebody would pick it up.
23:12Maybe it would go viral.
23:14Something happens.
23:15So I was saying it's difficult in the immediate, but maybe there's, there's always long-term value
23:19in Christmas songs.
23:21Totally.
23:21That playlist playing in the background or that person who suddenly finds it and does a version
23:25of it or does a TikTok to it or something.
23:27So I think it's great.
23:29I'm not deterring people from going out and trying to write Christmas hits.
23:32Yeah.
23:33It might not be immediate though.
23:35Yeah.
23:35Yeah.
23:35I mean, and I was, I was kind of thinking about Christmas music and it does feel like
23:39a very valuable thing to have if you can actually hit the nail on the head and get a true hit
23:44that comes back year after year.
23:45But also when it comes back year after year, there's also, you know, most of the time during
23:50the other parts of the year where no one's listening to it at all.
23:53Yeah, totally.
23:53So it's a very seasonal spike, but I'd say it's very consistent.
23:58You know, if you're looking at the economics of songs or if you're looking to buy a Christmas
24:01song, the, they're very, very dependable and steady earnings, which is what a lot of
24:06people like.
24:07Interesting.
24:08It is funny though, like to see which songs go in and out of favor.
24:11I'm just like thinking about some ridiculous shit.
24:13Like I think, you know, when you put on some of these like classic Christmas songs, right?
24:19You get like Nat King Cole and you get like Dean Martin and you get, you know, some Brenda
24:25Lee and you get some of these, like it's a mixture of like some of all these like classics.
24:30But somehow, somewhere, a few of these random songs have made themselves like gotten their,
24:38I guess, made their way onto these playlists and are now all over the place.
24:42Like Dominic the Christmas Donkey.
24:45Oh.
24:45Oh my gosh.
24:46Just wait.
24:46You're going to, there's that one.
24:48And then there's like, I want a hippopotamus for Christmas.
24:51Was that not popular before?
24:53It was like, yes, but all of a sudden, but they weren't on like the Bing Crosby Christmas
24:58album.
24:59Yeah.
24:59Like no one's buying that album.
25:01Is this the Donkey one again?
25:02Dominic the Donkey.
25:04It's not a good one.
25:04No, no, no.
25:05I'm sorry to whoever wrote that one.
25:07I'm not Googling that either, okay?
25:08I'm definitely not Googling.
25:09No, the Italian Christmas Donkey.
25:11Oh my gosh.
25:12Seriously.
25:13So, but my point being like, as Guy was saying at the beginning, when you're buying albums,
25:20when you were, when we were all buying cassettes or vinyl or CDs or whatever, it was like really
25:25the classics.
25:26You'd buy Dean Martin or you'd buy Donny Hathaway or you'd buy that.
25:31Like, you know, I want a hippopotamus for Christmas is not going to be on the Dean Martin
25:36album.
25:37Yeah.
25:38I'm going to swap you Slade and Wizard.
25:40Okay.
25:40Dominic the Donkey.
25:41And I want a hippopotamus.
25:43Well, I found out.
25:45I like.
25:45I think mine's even a little more highbrow than yours.
25:48Wait.
25:48So check this out.
25:49I like went down the rabbit hole last year about this like hippopotamus song.
25:54So I'm like, what is, what is this?
25:56And that's, what's kind of cool.
25:57Like these songs are kind of getting, getting pulled back out of the ether to be added to
26:01a playlist.
26:02Maybe it was 10 years ago.
26:03Maybe it was, who knows when it was, but it was certainly not on the original classics.
26:07I don't think.
26:08Like, and that song, I'll probably get it kind of wrong, but it's an interesting idea.
26:13That song was written as like a promotion for like the Cleveland zoo or something.
26:20Really?
26:20That hippopotamus song.
26:21Yes.
26:21We'll have to look it up.
26:23It was like.
26:23Is this a parody of Little Donkey?
26:25No.
26:25No.
26:26No, this isn't the donkey.
26:27This is the hippopotamus.
26:28It's a different song.
26:29Yeah.
26:29One hippopotamus for Christmas.
26:30Yes.
26:31Oh, that's the hippopotamus.
26:31Yeah.
26:31And it was like a young, because it was like, I read an article about this, the girl that
26:36sang it was like a contest or something.
26:39Wow.
26:39But it was like a, an advertisement for a local zoo somewhere in the Midwest.
26:44And she recorded the song when she was a child.
26:48I think it was probably the only thing she ever recorded.
26:51Yeah.
26:51I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense now.
26:54Maybe these are some of these interesting stories where this was recorded for in Ohio
26:59zoo.
26:59That's probably why it didn't reach the UK.
27:02Yeah.
27:02Right.
27:03It is such an American song.
27:05I'm sure there's like a few other cases like that, where maybe it was in a UK commercial
27:08that everyone saw as a kid and it just got stuck in your mind.
27:12Yeah.
27:13You know, I don't know.
27:14These kind of things.
27:15Or like a movie, right?
27:16Like if there was something, I still remember watching this Christmas movie.
27:21Um, with Mickey Rooney.
27:24It was like a made for TV movie called like, it came upon a midnight clear.
27:28I don't, it's not streaming like anywhere.
27:30Cause I look for it recently.
27:31It's lost.
27:32It's lost.
27:33I think you can like buy it on VHS somewhere.
27:35But like the Christmas songs that were in that and thinking about it came upon a midnight
27:39clear.
27:40I don't hear that song very often.
27:43You know, but like if something was recurrent, it was like on TV a bunch or is, I guess that
27:51would be the equivalent ish of like a radio or something.
27:54I don't know that the songs become, they're in the ether a bit more.
27:56So to your point, if something was airing in the UK or wherever.
28:00Or even in Latin America.
28:01Yeah.
28:01For this never does.
28:02I mean, I didn't hear, but now you hear it everywhere.
28:04Yeah.
28:05I heard it a lot growing up, but I grew up in California.
28:08Yeah.
28:09So.
28:10I think the guy who originally sang that was Mexican American maybe.
28:13Like, so I think it is like kind of an American song, but I might be wrong about that.
28:17I will fact check myself if I'm wrong.
28:19I will fact check the, the hippopotamus song, but it's something like that.
28:23And, but, but these are, it is interesting, like the lore of it and like what is sticky
28:27and what sort of goes away.
28:29Yeah.
28:29And the songs that maybe don't hold up as well now.
28:33Yeah.
28:33I think about the UK, it was both wizard and Slade were kind of seventies glam rock bands,
28:38but it's felt like if you were successful back in that era, it was acceptable to write
28:43a Christmas song and then have your Christmas hit.
28:45But it was more of a rite of passage or part of your recording kind of like discography
28:51almost, but it just kind of started to fade away, I feel.
28:55Yeah.
28:55I remember.
28:56So this was a very old contract that I saw, but I once saw a record deal where, you know,
29:03it was standard that you had to release a Christmas album at some point during the contract term.
29:07I don't know exactly what, what time period that contract was from.
29:11We studied it in college, but I loved seeing that.
29:14And I thought it was so interesting.
29:16I was like, oh, that's why everyone does Christmas albums.
29:18Yeah.
29:18Some of them are probably being forced to do it, to fulfill their recording contract.
29:22I can't imagine that that's part of standard recording contracts now.
29:26I don't think so.
29:27I think, I think that was very much in a physical era.
29:31A physical world.
29:31And I felt like if you had the greatest hits, uh-oh, your career might be ebbing a little.
29:35And then if you did the Christmas album, you could really be kind of like, but maybe
29:39that was a contractual fulfillment.
29:41I don't know.
29:42That's interesting.
29:43Yeah.
29:43I think also way, way back in the day, like I'm talking like fifties and sixties, it was
29:48so much more common to ask a new artist to do a bunch of covers in order to get themselves
29:52off the ground.
29:53One of my favorite artists of all time is Simon and Garfunkel.
29:56And I remember like going back in their discography and realizing that their first album was almost
30:00entirely covers.
30:02Yeah.
30:02And then they released some Christmas music, mostly covers.
30:04Um, I think that also there's probably more of a cover culture among recording artists
30:10back at that time or back in the 20th century and the days of physical than there is now.
30:15But nowadays, like whenever your songwriters get requests to, uh, or start working in the
30:23Christmas music ecosystem, are they pitching songs?
30:27Are they working with artists in the studio to write original songs with the artist?
30:31Kind of, how does that typically come together?
30:34I think a bit of both.
30:36I mean, there's always going to be those artists where I think they don't, you know, they don't
30:40write.
30:40They're more the singing show man, show woman type of person.
30:44They're on the road.
30:45That's what they do.
30:46So the, the crooners of, of today as such, and then there's the others will get in the
30:51room and collaborate.
30:52Um, so I don't think, I think, yeah, there's no real trend in that, but again, writing new
30:59songs.
30:59Yeah.
31:00I mean, it'd be quite tough these days, I think, to write new songs and just go out and
31:04pitch them to traditional singers.
31:05I don't know what you think, but, um, again, it may be over time.
31:10Yeah.
31:11Yeah.
31:11I mean, the pitch record game has obviously really fallen off in recent years in general,
31:16but I was wondering if maybe Christmas, you know, worked differently, but it sounds like
31:20not really.
31:21It depends.
31:22I mean, it's still there.
31:23I mean, if you go to Asia, it's still all about pitching.
31:25Nashville is still predominantly about pitching, but I think in contemporary pop music, most
31:30artists want to be part of that process of writing their own lyrics or at least being
31:35in the room and making sure that the essence of what they are as an artist is, is there
31:39and in the room.
31:39So, well, and, and back to what you were saying before, like the, you know, when it
31:45was really all about the song, I mean, Frank Sinatra didn't write any of his own songs.
31:49Like a lot of these folks didn't, there was, it was definitely the culture of song was a
31:54hit.
31:54A lot of record labels would just have their up and coming artists just do versions of
32:00that song.
32:01Like it was about the song.
32:02It wasn't really about the artist as much.
32:04And I think about this too, it's like, you know, when we, my son actually asked me this
32:10question when he was much younger, he said, how come when you talk about classical music,
32:15you talk about, he said, the songwriter, he didn't say the composer, but the songwriter
32:19when it's classical and when it's like a new song, we talk about the artist.
32:24And I thought it was really interesting.
32:26It's like, you know, that was a Mozart song.
32:28Now here is a song by X artist.
32:30And it was just sort of interesting, like the way, like what, what holds up, right?
32:36Is it the composer?
32:38Is it the song itself?
32:39Is it the artist?
32:40I think now it's, it couldn't be any of them.
32:43I think it's supply and demand.
32:44I think in the Christmas age, we don't, I think get a lot of requests for people saying,
32:48send me your best Christmas songs in the sense to cover them, because I don't think those
32:52artists see it as being so in vogue to go and try and to have a big Christmas hit.
32:57Well, the Philadelphia Eagles put out a Christmas album, was it a couple of years ago?
33:03And they did a part two.
33:04I mean, Jimmy Fallon did a Christmas album, didn't he?
33:07I mean, you know.
33:08Yeah.
33:09So there's some of that.
33:10Like, I think, did the Eagles do a second one?
33:12They may have.
33:13But I think there's some of that too, which where, as Guy mentioned before, it's fun.
33:18Yeah.
33:18You know, it's like, there is the, oh shit, I better do a Christmas album to keep my career
33:24alive as a last ditch effort thing.
33:27There's a, and then there's the, like, this is fun.
33:30Let's just have some fun and, like, do some songs that we love and not take it too seriously.
33:36And so I think that all of that exists.
33:39And I think what's really nice in general is, like, things aren't so one dimensional now.
33:44Anyway, there are a lot of ways to do lots of things.
33:48There isn't one path to success for anything, which can make it a little bit trickier, but
33:53also can be more interesting too.
33:56And so, like, if you are one of the artists that does hit the jackpot and you do get an
34:01amazing Christmas hit, how does that impact the value of your catalog overall?
34:05There's obviously so many artists and songwriters that are selling these days.
34:08So do you see, like, a noticeable increase from a Christmas hit specifically?
34:12I think it's significant.
34:13As I said, it's very steady.
34:15Okay, it might kind of go like this seasonally, but it's dependable every year.
34:21As predictable as Christmas coming, it's going to be those songs are going to be played.
34:26So I think Christmas songs are absolute gems in terms of if you were to look at the value
34:32of your catalog.
34:33Yes.
34:33And was it Love Actually, right?
34:36Was it?
34:36No.
34:37What?
34:37No.
34:37Was it Love Actually?
34:38What was the movie where I'm confusing the movies?
34:42No, the one where he's, like, living off the Christmas song money.
34:47Living off...
34:48Wait, oh, oh.
34:49Is that Love Actually?
34:50Does anyone in the room know this?
34:51Is it Love Actually?
34:52I can't remember what it is.
34:53Anyway, there's one of those movies.
34:54Actually, wait, I think it was.
34:56Like, there is a character in Love Actually who's, like, an aging rock star.
34:59Yeah, everyone's nodding now.
35:01Yeah.
35:01Like, we figured it out.
35:02There was an aging rock star and he records this Christmas song.
35:06Christmas song, right?
35:06And, like, that was the song?
35:08Or he re-records it.
35:08Yeah, something happens with that.
35:10People who are listening are going to be, like, oh, my God, they don't know Love Actually.
35:12Or there's another movie with...
35:13Anyway, there's, like, a couple...
35:15We might be conflating two different movies, but the idea of, like, mailbox money yearly,
35:20even though it's not in your mailbox anymore, for a Christmas song is real.
35:25So, certainly, it can increase the value of a writer's catalog who has hits in general.
35:31But, certainly, there are people that are known for writing big Christmas songs.
35:35And, like, yes, every year.
35:37That is steady.
35:38That is steady.
35:39And, you know, there's an opportunity for something to, you know, pop up, too.
35:43Like, the hippopotamus song.
35:44Yeah.
35:45Come back into the ether.
35:47Yeah.
35:47And I'm wondering if you guys have ever, you know, watched a song from your catalog in the last few years.
35:54Just take on a new life.
35:55We've kind of touched on this already.
35:57Sometimes songs are growers, especially Christmas songs, that maybe when they first come out,
36:01they're not initial hits, but then they become one.
36:04Are there any great examples from your catalog that have been fun to watch over the last few years?
36:08I guess slow burn.
36:09I mean, one I've been thinking about a lot.
36:11It's not a Christmas song, though.
36:13But I think it's sort of interesting is there was a use of the George Michael song Father Figure in an A24 film called Baby Girl.
36:24And it started to get some traction online.
36:29People were, like, using that, you know, posting that snippet.
36:33And so, obviously, that was that sync that the sync team negotiated.
36:37And then the creative services team picked that up.
36:43And alongside, I can't remember who the label was, but they worked, I think, with the label partners and really tried to get a lot of traction around that use to help amplify it.
36:53And the song ended up charting in the U.S., which is pretty cool.
36:56Wow.
36:57Yeah.
36:57And I mean, now there's the Taylor Swift song called Father Figure.
37:00Is there, like, is that an interpolation or?
37:03Interpolation, yeah.
37:04Okay, wow.
37:04Father Figure.
37:05I mean, that's the biggest boost you could probably ever ask for with the song.
37:10I mean, I don't think previous to Baby Girl, I knew Father Figure.
37:14Did you know it from Baby Girl?
37:15Do you know what I'm talking about?
37:17See, interesting.
37:18Nicole Kidman, I got to show up when she's in the theater.
37:21I got to show up.
37:22I think that's how we look at value.
37:23It's like, how do we connect to new fans?
37:26And that one placement connected you to that song.
37:28Yeah.
37:29Hopefully you went and listened to the original, by the way.
37:32So we're always looking through values.
37:34It's not always sometimes about the financial value of a sing.
37:37Sometimes it's like how many people will discover it, how many eyes and ears we're going to kind of, like, get across that song and how people then connect to the artist.
37:45I think that's right.
37:46It's like, and we've talked to our teams a lot, creative services, synchronization in particular, about looking through that lens of value.
37:56And, like, what does that mean?
37:57And sometimes it may mean dollars.
38:00Sometimes it may mean reach.
38:02Sometimes it can be just a cool, special, you know, demographic somebody wants to connect to.
38:08Like, and that value is the lens that we always want our teams to look through when they're negotiating or thinking about where to focus their time.
38:15And obviously, TikTok is a very important way to market music these days.
38:21Are there any instances of Christmas songs getting new life from TikTok that you'll have seen or just from, I guess, maybe online virality, more generally speaking?
38:29We'll probably be a better place to answer that question after this holiday season.
38:35Ooh, exciting.
38:36Yeah, I think so.
38:38But what's been really cool is that a lot of these services, we'll use TikTok as an example, now have teams that are focused on songwriters.
38:49And we actually helped pilot a number of those programs because we have a team that can do that.
38:55You know, there's a natural place to put that.
38:57So our creative services team has worked with TikTok and a number of these other digital partners to sort of champion, like, some of their songwriter initiatives.
39:07It's been really nice because we're really comfortable experimenting in that way.
39:12And so we have a little bit of a shortcut into talking to those folks about new ways to partner.
39:19I mean, that's not going viral, obviously.
39:22Going viral is going viral.
39:23You can't do a whole lot except to connect the dots there.
39:26I think there's a lot of that happens naturally.
39:28What we can do is try to connect the dots through our, you know, our partner relationships.
39:33Yeah.
39:34Yeah.
39:34That makes sense.
39:35I wanted to kind of end things off with the special edition of how we kind of end off every show.
39:40We do a segment called Make Me a Playlist, where I ask you guys, based on three prompts, to give us some songs.
39:46You're welcome to use Christmas songs as your answer to these, but also you don't have to.
39:51So, okay.
39:52Oh, my God.
39:53I used to make playlists for everybody.
39:55I found a notebook of all the playlists I made for people in high school.
40:01All the lists.
40:01Wait, that's amazing.
40:02Yeah, it's amazing.
40:02I serenaded my wife with, I used to make mixtapes.
40:06Yeah.
40:07I was like, it's mixtapes.
40:08We got married.
40:09Yeah.
40:09I'm not saying it's the only reason.
40:11I mean, I'm not saying there are hopefully redeeming factors, but yeah.
40:14I didn't have access to a whole bunch of music then, but I do have my mixtape lists.
40:19It's pretty good.
40:20Yeah, I did make one high school boyfriend a CD, and it's still in my old car.
40:25My parents now have that old car.
40:27Oh, he didn't take it?
40:28Well, we broke up, and I got the CD back.
40:31I don't know.
40:32I think it's really personal.
40:33Or did I make another copy for myself?
40:34I don't know.
40:35I don't want to say that.
40:36He just threw my CD at me and said goodbye.
40:38I made a lot of compilations, and I got them copied in the CD age, and someone got, I'm
40:42like, no, no, no.
40:43I don't want that person having it, because if they're not emotionally deep enough.
40:47Yeah, you had to connect.
40:48I was like, no, don't give my music away to them.
40:51Totally.
40:51I had a very specific playlist I'd make for specific people.
40:56How far could I push it for this person?
40:58How tame did I have to be for this person?
41:01I made these very rare dub CDs of great stuff.
41:05My wife gave one to one of her friends.
41:07I'm like, they're just not going to get it.
41:09I want it back.
41:10Mine were not that cool.
41:13I didn't have access to a whole lot of music.
41:15Sorry, Lee.
41:15Well, you're the A&R in the room, so I'm sure your mixtapes were...
41:18very cool and very well curated.
41:21So, anyways, let's start with you, actually.
41:24For Make Me a Playlist, our first question is, what's a song that you can no longer gatekeep?
41:30So, a lesser-known song, something a little bit more obscure?
41:34More obscure?
41:36Yeah.
41:38I would say I got really into a Brazilian artist called Arthur Veracuay.
41:42Okay.
41:42And I spent a lot of time buying his album at high vinyl.
41:49Oh, wow.
41:50But everything's on YouTube nowadays.
41:52So, I used to collect a lot of kind of rare Brazilian fun, disco, rare groove, and used
41:58to pay a lot of money for it.
42:00And now everything is on YouTube like that.
42:03Hey, but you could probably sell those for a lot of money if you wanted to.
42:07Yeah, yeah.
42:07I'm not selling.
42:08Yeah.
42:09Yeah.
42:10But, so, an album by Arthur Veracuay.
42:13It's just one of my favorite albums.
42:15Okay.
42:15That's great.
42:16Kind of like Brazilian, rare funk.
42:17It's kind of like slightly badly recorded, which makes it even more special.
42:21Yeah.
42:21A little lo-fi.
42:22Yeah.
42:22I don't want to follow that.
42:23Yeah, I know.
42:24I'm sorry, Kirian.
42:25You're going to have to follow that.
42:26I have.
42:27It, like, just really depends on where, I don't know, where my head's at.
42:32I think music to me is so, like, it's about the mood and the feeling.
42:35I definitely have some albums I like, but, like, there's two songs I've been listening
42:40to on repeat lately.
42:41Neither one of them are very big, I guess.
42:45One is by a writer.
42:48I was actually, like, listening to it on the way here that we have signed Nectar Wood.
42:51Do you know the song Amma Said?
42:53Mm-hmm.
42:54It's so, like, I literally, like, listened to it on repeat.
42:57It's just, like, cool.
42:58She's a new artist in the UK.
42:59Okay.
43:00It feels so good.
43:01Like, so good.
43:02Part almost of that UK Brit soul kind of revival.
43:05Like, you know, Olivia Dean, K1, that, yeah.
43:08I, like, I think that I, right now, I've been really wanting to listen to a lot of stuff
43:15that just makes me feel, like, feel good.
43:18And the other song I've been, like, listening to on repeat is by this group Bar from Saints
43:24that's, like, a woman who was in a band called The Wind and the Wave and then a guy
43:30from Stereophonics.
43:32Oh, cool.
43:32And there's a song called, I'm going to mess up the title, Let the Light Shine Down, I think
43:39is the name of the song.
43:40But again, it's just, like, really beautiful and positive.
43:43And I think that, like, I don't know, I need that a little bit right now.
43:47It's just, like, really lovely to listen to those songs.
43:50Mm-hmm.
43:51Those are good picks.
43:52Okay.
43:53Guy, what's a favorite throwback of yours?
43:55And I'm defining throwback as anything over 10 years old, but yeah, that leaves a lot
44:00of songs.
44:02Oh, I can do that while he's thinking.
44:04Okay, carry on.
44:05I've been, like, going back to, like, it's definitely a specific era and time and listening
44:10to the Zero Seven album, Simple Things, Massive Attack, Mezzanine, and DJ Shadow Introducing.
44:19Like, that right now is, I don't know why.
44:23It's like that warm.
44:24Music just takes you there.
44:25I don't know.
44:26Right?
44:26I'm listening to a lot of Carly Simon and Joni Mitchell for some reason at the moment,
44:30because I just think the phrasing is just, everybody's always full tilt vocally these
44:34days, and just the arrangements are so unpredictable.
44:38And then I don't usually go back over the people who I sign.
44:42I'm funny like this.
44:43It's always about what's next, what's next.
44:45But I've gone back to a lot of Jamiroquai.
44:47It's actually having a bit of a resurgence in the UK.
44:48We were just talking about that.
44:49It's so good.
44:50Just really appreciating some of the, not even the big hits, some more of the down-tempo
44:55songs like Morning Glory and Half a Man and stuff like that.
44:59I always think a lot of ballads get overlooked back in the day on albums, because everybody
45:03was like, oh, we've got to have three up-tempo singles.
45:05Yeah, forget it.
45:06You know, so, yeah.
45:09Yeah.
45:09Wait, so did you sign Jamiroquai?
45:11Yeah.
45:11Okay.
45:12Wait, that's so cool.
45:13Okay.
45:13I actually don't know who some of your early signings were.
45:16What were some of the few first signings?
45:18I think Jamiroquai was one of my biggest signings.
45:23Calvin Harris.
45:23Obviously, then it was at Amy Winehouse and Mark Ronson and Slam Remy at the time, Gang
45:31Star.
45:32That's a good line.
45:33It's got some good taste.
45:34I know.
45:34I know.
45:35Yeah, it's all people with taste, too.
45:37I mean, you often hear people who are just like, I mean, it sells, you know?
45:41Yeah.
45:41Those are all really great artists.
45:43Hopefully it came.
45:44I mean, I was always coming from the left, but it hopefully came into the mainstream,
45:48and it did most of the time.
45:50So I don't know if it's like that now, because I don't think there's so many sort of underground
45:54scenes or things like that.
45:57So maybe it's different.
45:59Yeah.
45:59And, okay, final one is, what's a guilty pleasure for you guys?
46:05Oh, I have, okay.
46:07Anyway, I was thinking about this, actually, as you were talking about how songs sometimes
46:15have another life in a, you know, TV show or, you know, ad or something, because my son
46:22and I, like, went down this, like, crazy path, I don't know, a while ago, because he wanted
46:27to hear, like, the weirdest songs.
46:29And so we've been listening a lot to the song called Hocus Pocus by a band called Focus.
46:38It is, like, a rock song, and I didn't, yeah, and I did not understand why it was streaming
46:46so much, and I literally found out today, it was in, like, this huge British Nike ad.
46:51Oh.
46:52Like, and I, like, in the U.S., nobody, but it's, there's yodeling and a flute and a lot
46:57of, like, metal guitar.
46:59Wow.
46:59And you knew about this song already.
47:01Was it big when it came out?
47:03Not in the States.
47:04Well, it was pretty big in the U.K., yeah.
47:06Not in the States.
47:06I mean, most of the big, yeah, it could be those Christmas songs, like Slade.
47:10In with Wizard.
47:11Wizard.
47:12Not really a big kind of glam rock guy growing up.
47:15Not really a big rock guy in general, but that's what Christmas is about.
47:19You must probably have a couple of, you know, a couple of eggnogs, and you're, like, singing
47:23along at the top of your voice wearing a paper hat at the office party.
47:27You know what I mean?
47:27It's like, that's...
47:29I like the rock, too.
47:30But we all love to sing along with great songs like that.
47:32Yeah.
47:32And guitar harmonies are incredible.
47:35I love guitar harmonies.
47:36They make me happy.
47:38I love that.
47:38Okay.
47:39What's your guilty pleasure?
47:41Well, partly that, singing along to those sort of songs.
47:43I think, I think, I think, I think, occasionally, and I'm not a depressed person, I listen to
47:47very sad songs.
47:48A lot of Eric Carman.
47:50But I've been really, like, studying how people wrote those really, like, lonely songs, you
47:56know, all by myself and stuff.
47:57I just, a moment, I'm not depressed.
47:59I get out of it.
48:00I'm not having counseling yet.
48:02Um, but yeah, sometimes some of those, because I just, people just don't write sad songs.
48:07They don't write sad songs in the same way.
48:09Oh, I mean...
48:10Yeah, they do.
48:11They don't make songs about being poor anymore.
48:13You know what I mean?
48:13Or reality.
48:15So, sometimes I have to just indulge.
48:17Oh, we could go down the rabbit hole on sad songs.
48:20Oh, yeah.
48:20What's your saddest song?
48:21My saddest...
48:22Okay.
48:23Well, one of my favorite artists of all time is James Blake.
48:25And, like, his early stuff, he was very lonely and very sad.
48:29So, first album, second album, actually, even third album, he's still very sad.
48:35He's a pretty sad guy.
48:36Do you like his Dave songs?
48:39Yeah, I like them.
48:40I, like, I would say his early stuff is really what hits for me.
48:44I've interviewed him quite a few times over the years, just because I'm such a fan.
48:49And he has been, like, very honest about how his process has changed, because he's gotten happier.
48:56Like, he's like, I now write with friends, and I now have a social life and a romantic life that I'm happy about.
49:01And the songs have changed.
49:02It's not as therapeutic.
49:04Yeah.
49:04Or it's therapeutic in a different way, maybe.
49:06Totally.
49:06So, I would say James Blake gets quite sad.
49:09I'm a big Radiohead fan.
49:10That can get sad.
49:12Bon Iver.
49:13I prefer sad songs.
49:15I actually want a song to make me feel something.
49:18Yeah.
49:18Like, I want it to, like, manufacture a feeling in me.
49:20If I'm, like, just walking around, going about my day, if I can, like, get into that place with them, then it's a good song.
49:27You know?
49:28And then you can get further and further into it.
49:29And then you listen to the lyrics more deeply.
49:31You know what I mean?
49:32Oh, my gosh.
49:33Yeah.
49:33I mean, I'm...
49:34You're going to see the radio.
49:35Oh, Radiohead were playing.
49:36You didn't get there, right?
49:37So, they were playing.
49:39And then Tom Yark has a throat infection or something, and he had to cancel the rest of the dates.
49:44I was thinking about flying to Europe to go see them.
49:47And so, I guess...
49:48Hopefully, they'll come to the U.S.
49:50I know.
49:51I have heard rumors, and I'm hopeful that they come to the U.S., but we'll see.
49:56Anyways, Guy, Carrie-Anne, thank you so much for coming to On The Record.
49:59Thank you so much to Guy and Carrie-Anne for coming on On The Record.
50:05They're always so much fun to talk to.
50:07Now, let's dive into our Charts Roundup and learn more about this week's biggest movers and shakers.
50:12Here is the top 10 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart for the week of December 20th.
50:17Coming in at number 10, it's It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year by Andy Williams.
50:23Ninth this week is Underneath the Tree by Kelly Clarkson.
50:26Eight is The Christmas Song, Merry Christmas to You by Nat King Cole.
50:34The Fate of Ophelia by Taylor Swift comes in at seven.
50:40Golden by Huntrix comes in at sixth.
50:45Fifth this week is Santa Tell Me by Ariana Grande.
50:51Jingle Bell Rock by Bobby Helms comes in at number four.
50:56Last Christmas by Wham falls to number three.
51:02Number two this week is Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree by Brenda Lee.
51:10And finally, number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart for the week of December 20th, 2025.
51:16It's All I Want for Christmas is You by Mariah Carey for its 20th week at number one.
51:20Thanks for listening to this week's special holiday episode of On the Record.
51:26The show will be off for the next couple weeks, but don't worry, season one still continues in January, starting January 22nd.
51:33And the lineup for the rest of the season is stacked, so come back and join us again.
51:38But until then, happy holidays.
51:40Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in in January for another peek behind the curtain of the music business.
51:46I'll see you then.
51:46I'll see you then.
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