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00:00The judge will be sat there, the jury's going to be over there, and the defendants, they're
00:23going to be behind the screen there. But you won't be in here, you'll be in a separate
00:27room with me. Can I go out for a fag on the day? Of course you can, when there's a break.
00:35What if I need the toilet? Have I got to hold it in? If you need to stop, all you have to
00:42do is ask.
00:57Ruby is pregnant.
01:09Thirteen-year-old on the child protection register. Pregnant by a mid-thirties man with a family
01:17of his own. I can tell you his name, his address, his license plate. We can get convictions here,
01:22Maggie, if we can re-engage the girls. So you want me to help you? Yeah, we do. You
01:28never help me. Why would I do that? If a jury's not going to believe her, why are we making
01:32that assumption? Holly was fully aware that this would be the outcome. She'll be in foster
01:37care while we assess the situation. I can't do no more. You can. They're not using Amber,
01:44but they're going to use Ruby. I'm not using anyone. Nine not guilty, please. Which means
01:52nine cross-examinations. Which means nine different barristers telling these girls that every word
01:57they're saying's a lie. Are they up to it?
02:04Bye!
02:10Bye!
02:14It is mad, though.
02:20What is?
02:21What is?
02:22Court! But I won't be in the actual court on the day. I'll be in a room on my own.
02:27Yay!
02:28Come on. Let's go and get something on his keep.
02:33Oh!
02:35It's all about supporting me through the process. Well, that's what Copper kept on saying.
02:42And I can go for a fag, too.
02:45If they didn't want me to be a witness, why did they, like, beg me to do it in the first
02:52place?
02:53I don't want her doing it. It's her saying she don't want all them interviews going to waste.
02:58Mine did. Months of them.
03:02Do you know what? I really, really, really don't give a fuck.
03:07I thought I'd say hell freeze over before this got to trial.
03:22Today's going to be about swearing in the jury and Rachel, our prosecution barrister, standing
03:28up and outlining our case.
03:30Holly, you're the first witness for the Crown, so you will be called first. So, depending
03:37on what gets done today, in all likelihood, you'll be going in to start giving your evidence
03:42tomorrow.
03:43We'll need to phone Suzanne.
03:45Who's Suzanne?
03:46I have to do stuff. Go to AA meetings and that to get Ella back.
03:52And write it down if you miss one.
03:55You're not going to see any of them. You know that, don't you? It'll all be by video
04:00link. And you're just going to carry on doing what you've been doing for years. Telling
04:05the truth.
04:08And those twelve ordinary men and women are going to believe you.
04:14Right. I'll see you bright and early tomorrow.
04:17You're going down, you pucky bastard. He's the pucky bastard who brought the prosecution,
04:42you dickhead.
04:44Cheers, but don't call me a pucky bastard, do you?
04:49Sorry.
04:50All rise.
05:13All rise.
05:15All rise.
05:16All rise.
05:17Well...
05:20All rise.
05:21How you started?
05:24It's on the BBC website.
05:27Front page of the Manchester Evening News.
05:29Jean.
05:30Let's keep busy today, eh?
05:32Fancy going down shops for a few bits and bobs?
05:34Right. Just go upstairs.
05:36upstairs. Holly Winshaw is now 19. At the start of the time period with which you were concerned,
05:52she was 15 years old, and at the end of that period, she was 17. Ruby Bowen is now 16.
06:01Her 13th birthday was two days before the start of the indictment period,
06:06and at the end of that period, she was 15. You will hear evidence about these girls'
06:12personal circumstances and their behaviour. Holly Winshaw had fallen out with her parents
06:18and was mostly living away from home when the sexual exploitation of her began.
06:24Ruby Bowen had had a difficult and troubled childhood and has a number of problems as a result.
06:30You will have to decide, having heard their own descriptions of themselves and the descriptions
06:35of other people, whether their characters and their behaviour makes them unreliable witnesses,
06:42as some of the defendants may say. Or whether, as the prosecution say, it simply confirms
06:48that they were exactly the sort of children who were easy to identify, target and exploit
06:53for the sexual gratification of these men.
06:55Amber Bowen, the older sister of Ruby Bowen, is now 19. The prosecution will argue that she's an
07:13important person in this case. She was also having sex with adult men and getting food and alcohol for
07:18doing so. But she moved on to playing an active role in helping men, including some of these
07:23defendants, to sexually exploit the other girls. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the outline of
07:30the prosecution case that we'll put before you, starting with the first witness, Holly Winshaw,
07:34tomorrow morning.
07:35Hiya. Is she ready? I can't say she is now. Do you want to...
08:01She won't get dressed. I'm sorry. Hiya. Have you had any breakfast? Well, I've not. What are we having?
08:30Bacon boy. Two of them, then, please, Julie.
08:35The whole bloody country is waiting on this trial. And she's up there having a lie-in.
08:48Nina knows what she's doing. No point pushing her until she's ready.
08:52Where is she? Worth giving Nina, right? Uh, Andrew Norfolk from the Times. Looks like the first witness hasn't turned up. I'll phone back later.
08:57Andrew, every time I open the Times, there's your by-line on grooming.
09:04Oh. It's a big story. Is it? Is it a big story? Or does it just seem that way because there's so much
09:09reporting on it? You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that?
09:14Innocent white victims? Dark-skinned abusers?
09:16It's uncomfortable.
09:17You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that.
09:20It's uncomfortable, isn't it? It's uncomfortable, isn't it? I just don't see what it achieves.
09:23You must admit, it's a gift for the BMP and all that like that. Innocent white victims? Dark-skinned abusers?
09:27It's uncomfortable, isn't it? I just don't see what it achieves.
09:33She's here.
09:50She's here.
09:56Ignore them. Ignore them, ignore them, and ignore them.
10:26Take a seat.
10:47Take a seat.
10:51Take a seat.
11:12Take a seat.
11:16Take a seat.
11:20Take a seat.
11:25They need to hear you, but they don't need to see you.
11:29Would you like a curtain?
11:31No.
11:33Hello, Holly. Can you see and hear me?
11:50Yeah.
11:52Okay.
11:53That's a good start.
11:55The usher should help you to swear an oath. Has that been explained to you?
12:01Rather than gestures, Holly, you'll have to speak words for ease of the transcribers.
12:08Yeah.
12:09I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.
12:21Members of the jury, the prosecution will now present its evidence in chief, which takes the form of recorded interviews with the witness Holly Winshaw.
12:33Now, do you understand what it is that you've come to speak to me about today?
12:42Yeah.
12:43Okay.
12:44Okay.
12:45And what do you think that's about?
12:47About what happened at him? With the men at Top Curry.
13:00About what happened with the men at Top Curry. Okay?
13:06Obviously, I've got to ask you some questions about what they actually did to you during the sex, okay?
13:13It hurt.
13:17Because I didn't want to do it.
13:21Tarek started taking us places.
13:25He started picking us up and Amber thought that he was a boyfriend.
13:31So, what did you think was going to happen when he picked you up?
13:38I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex.
13:42He said, don't cry.
13:44And he said, you're beautiful.
13:46So, when he got on top of you, what was he doing?
13:51Oh, I tried to move.
13:54But I just gave up.
14:02Because what's the point in trying?
14:09And what did you think about the fact that I'd started then with different men?
14:15I wasn't even bothered anymore.
14:21Right, what do you mean by that?
14:24I didn't feel anything about it.
14:26Why do you think you felt like that?
14:29Because it had been going on for so long.
14:32I want to ask you some questions today on behalf of Shabbir Ahmed, who you were introduced to by a nickname, Daddy.
14:53Before I ask you about what you say Daddy did, I want to ask you something about your background.
15:02What caused the big falling out you had with your parents in around June 2008?
15:09I didn't really stick to the rules.
15:12And you were going out with a gang of girls at night, were you not?
15:17Yeah.
15:18You were freeloading, were you not?
15:21Getting free booze, so alcohol and money.
15:26Yeah.
15:27And then mocking them.
15:30Creating problems in Speedy Kebab and Top Curry.
15:34I wouldn't say that I was creating problems.
15:36Was there not a crowd of you that was going to Speedy Kebab, drunk and loud and behaving very badly?
15:45There wasn't a crowd of us.
15:48There was about two or three at a time.
15:50And it was the men in the takeaway shop that bought us the alcohol to get drunk on.
15:53I want you to understand that I am going to be suggesting that Daddy never gave you or bought you any alcohol at all over that period or any other time.
16:06That is the truth of the matter, is it not?
16:08No.
16:09You told the police that when he was trying to rape you, you were trying to, like, laugh it off, giggling and saying no. Is that right?
16:27Well, yeah, I was trying to say no in, like, a giggly way.
16:34Cos I didn't want to say it in, like, a stern way, cos I didn't want to offend him.
16:42And I was scared.
16:46Cos if I said it, like, nastily to him, I didn't know what he would do, so I just, like...
16:55I just need to stop.
17:05Have you got a tissue there, Holly?
17:11Thanks.
17:12Had you not tried to shout for help if this was happening?
17:27You were being raped.
17:29I didn't want to say anything cos I was scared.
17:33This incident did not happen, did it, Holly?
17:37Yeah, it did.
17:39You say that you were shouting, get off me.
17:43Yeah.
17:44It could not be the case that what you were actually shouting was, tell that bastard to give me my money.
17:50No.
17:51No.
17:52Because that would suggest, would it not, that what you were upset about was not being paid rather than the sex.
17:58Do you remember calling my client a packy bastard?
18:02I wouldn't.
18:03I wouldn't say something like that.
18:05I suggest to you, Miss Winshaw, that at the time of these events, your life was a bit of a mess, was it not?
18:11You were out getting drunk regularly, were you not?
18:14Yeah.
18:15And you had been in so many different places on so many nights with so many different men that you simply made a mistake.
18:24Did you not?
18:25No.
18:26Can you describe the man you call Tiger to me, Holly?
18:29You said, he's Asian, obviously.
18:32He's got like a side parting in his hair.
18:35Like a lot of them, small.
18:39I think that's his height you're talking about there, is it not?
18:43Not long to go now.
18:59You're doing great.
19:00Just hold your nerve for one more day.
19:13You're beautiful.
19:28When are you going to let me have sex with you?
19:31I'm not.
19:35You're going with him.
19:38You're going with him.
19:40Holly, you're going with him.
19:42No.
19:43No.
20:12I'm the barrister for Abdulaziz, who you knew as Tariq.
20:13Of all the girls you knew who were conducting that sort of lifestyle, without doubt, you were the prettiest.
20:25You know, much prettier than Amber.
20:26Are you not?
20:27Yes.
20:28Yes, well, I will spare your blushes and we can deal with this in a different way.
20:59You know, Amber Bowen.
21:00She was the one who introduced you to this lifestyle that you complain of.
21:09Yes, she was.
21:10She was the one who introduced you to the men that you complain of, yes?
21:13Yes.
21:14Yeah.
21:15And she was the one who was getting payments for the men that you make these complaints
21:20against.
21:21Yes, she was, but some of them were getting, um...
21:26Some of the men were getting payments as well.
21:28So in the scheme of things, Amber was worse than the men that you accuse.
21:34At any rate, she was no less culpable than the men that you accuse.
21:37How do you mean?
21:39That she was at least as bad as they were.
21:41In some ways.
21:43In other ways, they were worse.
21:45If I've understood your evidence correctly, Holly, is that you would go to an address knowing
21:52that sex was about to take place.
21:55Sex would take place.
21:56Amber would collect money.
21:59Tariq would be called.
22:01He would collect you and Amber, and money would be given to Tariq.
22:04Is that what happened?
22:06Yeah.
22:07Yes.
22:08So it was Amber who was controlling the arrangement.
22:12It was Amber who was arranging sex.
22:14It was Amber who was arranging transport.
22:16I think it were both of them together.
22:18And that is because...
22:20Because if it were just her doing it, why would she give him the money?
22:27The reality is this, is it not, Holly?
22:30That you feel profoundly very guilty about what's gone on.
22:35I don't feel guilty because I didn't do anything wrong.
22:38It may just be that I've read your evidence badly, but you do say, at a number of places, that you feel guilty.
22:47Because you didn't stand up for yourself.
22:50You did not defend your corner.
22:52Yeah, I didn't.
22:53And I feel ashamed.
22:55And I feel angry that I didn't try more.
23:09Because obviously, at my age, a few years later, if something like that would happen again, I would do everything in my power to make sure it wouldn't happen again.
23:25So now you feel ashamed.
23:28Guilty for what's gone on.
23:30Yes?
23:31I don't feel guilty.
23:32I feel ashamed.
23:33And you've been the subject, over the years, of ridicule for this lifestyle that you entered with Amber.
23:39People were calling your names.
23:41And this is a way, really, of just cleansing all of that.
23:46Of saying to them that, you know what, in fact, I've got nothing to be ashamed of because I was raped.
23:53That's what this is really all about.
23:55Is it not?
23:56I don't care about them.
23:59I don't care about what people say.
24:02It's four years later now.
24:05Four years.
24:07I've got a daughter.
24:10I've got a life.
24:13I don't need cleansed.
24:16I want justice.
24:26I don't know if I can call her sister.
24:44I don't feel mad.
24:47That's right.
24:48I'm not looking at this.
24:51Do I look all right?
25:09Oh, really nice.
25:12Have a snack.
25:13I'm going to go wait on you.
25:14Okay.
25:16Police will be here in five minutes.
25:18Why don't you go for a walk around Block if you don't want to see them?
25:20No, I don't care.
25:22It's just going to make you angry.
25:24It'll upset you and that'll upset her.
25:26No, it won't.
25:28I don't care if they've decided I'm not a good enough victim or whatever.
25:35Because I'm a good mum.
25:39I'm actually good.
25:42That's where my head's going.
25:44Not on all this that happened years ago.
25:46I'm...
25:46I'm sook.
25:51All rise.
26:21Go on, Ruby.
26:40And they pass you around like a ball.
26:44And they, like, get your number and then there's, like,
26:4850 people you don't know ringing you.
26:54What do you mean, Ruby?
26:56They pass you around like a ball.
26:58Um...
27:00They like being in a flat, um, in a massive circle.
27:06And then they put the white girl in the middle.
27:12And then you get sent off of one of them.
27:19And then when you come back, you just...
27:22just get past and past again.
27:26And where was the flats?
27:34There weren't one.
27:37There were loads.
27:40There were loads.
27:43There were loads.
27:48There were loads.
27:49Ruby, can you see me all right?
28:00Yeah.
28:00And can you hear me OK?
28:02Yes.
28:03I am the barrister who is helping the man that you call Billy.
28:07And I'd like to ask you a few questions for him, please.
28:10Now, you told us you were in a relationship with Billy for a few months
28:13and that he was your boyfriend, yes?
28:17Yes.
28:18And that you told him you were 16?
28:22Yeah.
28:23And as time went on, you felt like you were in love with him.
28:27Did you not?
28:33You're nodding.
28:34And did it seem like he really liked you a lot as well?
28:39Yeah.
28:39Now, then, when you have talked about when you have been with Billy
28:45and you have had sex with him,
28:47you have talked about cuddling up with him,
28:50having a laugh and having nice sex, have you not?
29:00Yeah.
29:02And that Billy, he was...
29:04he was different from the other men that you met.
29:07Because you told us, the other men,
29:10they were one-night stands.
29:13Whereas Billy, he was a proper boyfriend, yes?
29:24Um...
29:26Yeah.
29:31Yeah.
29:32I have no more questions.
29:37Yeah.
29:45Baby.
29:46Mm-hmm.
29:47Hey.
29:48Mm-hmm.
29:49Hey.
29:50Hey.
29:51Hi.
29:56Hey.
30:00Hey.
30:00Hey.
30:01Hey, hey, hey.
30:03Hey.
30:04Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
30:04You met Ruby Bowen before your son was born, is that right?
30:14Yes.
30:15And you had a sexual relationship with her from October 2008, is that right?
30:21Yes.
30:22Two photographs in the jury bundle were taken when Ruby Bowen was in Year 9.
30:28That is the girl with whom you had a sexual relationship, is it not?
30:34I don't deny the fact from looking at the picture that that's the same girl.
30:39These photographs were taken when she was 13 and 14.
30:43Are you seriously saying to this jury that you thought she was 20 to 25 years old?
30:53Mr. Ahmed, do you deny all of the allegations?
30:57I deny everything.
30:58But you accept, as you've told this jury, that the forensic evidence has your semen on those items of underwear.
31:06Oh.
31:07Where did Holly Winshaw get your semen from?
31:10I had a sexual relationship with Amber.
31:13And if Amber took a condom, this Winshaw girl, very clever, very sharp, intelligent, knows everything.
31:21Who knows what she did?
31:22Why would Holly fabricate evidence against you?
31:26They get into this business together.
31:29They decide on this joint venture together.
31:32And they carry it out very well.
31:34They're making a lot of money.
31:36And then she falls out with Amber and...
31:41Very nice and very easy for policemen.
31:45Because they want to climb the ladder of their career.
31:47Fuck the Pakistanis.
31:48Mr. Ahmed, can we stick to...
31:50No.
31:51No.
31:52We can't.
31:54Where are your white people?
31:56They train them in sex.
31:58They train them in drinking from a very young age.
32:02And when they come to us, by that time, they're fully trained.
32:05You should look in midder.
32:07Look at yourself first.
32:10Look at your community.
32:12Where's school?
32:13Where's social services?
32:16Where is everybody else?
32:17You're lovely we're there.
32:35How do you see your future together?
32:38I'd like to go to college.
32:43I'd like to move away from Rochdale.
32:45Does that feel achievable?
32:50Yeah.
32:58We'll not keep you in suspense any longer, Holly.
33:00We're going to keep a care order in place,
33:03but we'll have joint responsibility with you.
33:06What does that mean?
33:08Ella's going to be coming home to you.
33:09We want it to be a smooth transition for her,
33:14so we'll liaise with the foster family
33:16and start making arrangements next week.
33:18Sorry.
33:25You've worked really hard, Holly.
33:27We've got every confidence in you.
33:29In a complex case like this one,
33:36where we'd expect the jury to be out for some weeks,
33:39this briefing is an opportunity for members of the press
33:41to ask any questions that may have arisen during trial.
33:44Yeah, over here.
33:45Yeah.
33:45Why didn't the CPS prosecute this case in 2008,
33:49when Holly Winshaw first went to the police?
33:52At that time, it was considered
33:54that there was an unrealistic prospect of conviction.
33:57What changed?
33:59The key evidence used in this trial,
34:01you had in 2008.
34:04The perpetrators were allowed to continue offending
34:06for a further two years.
34:08Why did the CPS drop the case?
34:11Is there an issue around the ethnicity of the perpetrators?
34:14There was an issue around the witness,
34:17not the perpetrators.
34:18What happened is that initially,
34:20a CPS lawyer formed the view
34:23that the witness would not be credible.
34:26That's why the case didn't progress to court.
34:30I came here last year, and I reversed that decision.
34:33I looked at it afresh,
34:34and I formed a different view,
34:37that she was absolutely credible.
34:40Mr Afzal, would you say that Holly Winshaw was betrayed?
34:44I have no difficulty in apologising to her.
34:47She was let down by the whole system,
34:48and we were part of that system.
35:12The Rake!
35:13The Rake!
35:14The Rake!
35:14No, no, no, no, no!
35:15Quick!
35:15Quick!
35:16Quick!
35:16Quick!
35:17Quick!
35:17Quick!
35:18Quick!
35:19She decided to dress herself this morning.
35:23In case you're wondering why she's got on that hat.
35:28Mama.
35:32Hello.
35:32Will the foreman please stand?
35:45Have the jury reached a verdict on any count?
35:48Yes.
35:49On the charge of trafficking within the United Kingdom for sexual exploitation,
36:05do you find the defendant, Shabir Ahmed, guilty or not guilty?
36:11Guilty.
36:12Guilty.
36:12Guilty.
36:12Guilty.
36:12Guilty.
36:12Guilty.
36:13You're a biased jury.
36:14Racist!
36:16On the charge of rape of a child,
36:18do you find the defendant, Shabir Ahmed, guilty or not guilty?
36:22Guilty.
36:23Guilty.
36:24Guilty.
36:25You bastard.
36:27Take him to the cell.
36:29Mati!
36:30Waunga!
36:31Six- Rip!
36:31Khabir Hassan.
36:37On the count of rape of a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
36:44Guilty.
36:45Abdul Rauf.
36:47Guilty.
36:49Mohammed Sajid.
36:51Guilty.
36:52Mohammed Amin.
36:54Guilty.
36:54Adil Khan.
36:58On the count of conspiring to engage in sexual activity with a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:04Guilty.
37:05Abdul Aziz.
37:09On the count of trafficking within the United Kingdom for sexual exploitation, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:16Guilty.
37:18On the count of rape of a child, do you find the defendant guilty or not guilty?
37:23Guilty.
37:24Guilty.
37:28Would you watch her for me?
37:30I'm murder. I'm murder.
37:33I'm murder. I'm murder.
37:39All right?
37:40All right.
37:41I don't know yet. Depends what you're going to say next.
37:45I'm going to say guilty.
37:48Every single one of them involved were you.
37:51Guilty.
37:51I'm murder.
37:54Are you there?
37:58What's your mind?
38:01I called your house.
38:04Your mum said you were here.
38:05You can't take it in, can you?
38:13Neither can I.
38:14I don't feel anything.
38:16You will do.
38:17You'll be batting Elly, making some pasta, watching telly.
38:22And it's going to hurt you.
38:23Like, fuck, this actually happened.
38:25Like, fuck, I actually did this.
38:30It were you, Ollie.
38:32It were you speaking up again and again and again to me and to your dad and to the police
38:38and holding your own against nine bloody barristers.
38:44It were you.
38:45Nineteen years.
39:07It should be her, Amit.
39:15Nineteen years.
39:19Sorry.
39:22I'm sorry.
39:30I had all these ideas about you.
39:31What you were going to be, what you were going to do and all that, and how people would say,
39:41oh, Jim's daughter, yeah, the smart one, she's gone on to do this, that, and the other.
39:47Jim.
39:48Seeing you do what you've done over them months in camp, finding the strength to do what you did
39:58in there, after everything you've been through, after everything that's happened to you.
40:11That's the proudest moment of my life.
40:18I have got so much respect for you.
40:27I take the head off to you.
40:41I take the head off to you.
40:45You are so messy. I'm gonna get a cloth to wipe that up.
40:57This has been a fantastic result for British justice.
41:19These victims have been through the most horrendous of crimes, and I just want to commend their
41:24bravery in relation to the ordeal they've had to go through. A long number of weeks
41:29in court, and they've had to go through a lot of trauma. I would also like to thank my
41:35officers for the professionalism and dedication they have shown in a very complex inquiry.
41:44This is the first time in UK history that we've had trafficking within the UK.
41:54I've gone down 60% since the verdict, because people would rather wait for a white driver
42:00than get in my cab. That's why we set up this group, to bring the people of Rochdale together.
42:07This is a great place to live, and it's time now to focus on the positive.
42:12People in the community must have known what was going on.
42:14Are you saying that I knew about this? No, what I'm saying is...
42:17Because believe me, if I had, I would have rounded them up myself and took them down to the police
42:21station myself. I see the people that won't get into your cab now, that's just racist.
42:25That's them saying that all Pakistanis is the same. Ethnicity is not an issue here.
42:30It's not an issue, it's a fact. The vast majority of sex offenders are white male. 90% are British
42:37white males acting on their own. But in this particular type of crime, on-street grooming of
42:44vulnerable girls, it's overwhelmingly British Pakistani men acting together.
42:50Right, and that's my responsibility, is it? Because I'm a British Pakistani too.
42:54White people never ask to account for the deviant behaviour of all the white people.
42:58No. It isn't about whether the guys that did it are Pakistani. It's what the hell was a 13-year-old girl doing in that flat.
43:05You're blaming the victim. That victim could have been your sister. Or your daughter.
43:11No, because my sister or my daughter, our daughters, aren't hanging about on street corners in short skirts with their chests hanging out.
43:17They were in tracky bottoms. These girls were in school uniform. These men had disgusting attitudes towards women.
43:25And not just white women. All women.
43:27That is a tiny, tiny proportion of British Pakistanis.
43:30I know. But as long as that attitude exists at all, here, in Rochdale, in our community, there'll be repercussions for all of us.
43:47Now, as you may have heard in the news, the Rochdale Borough Safeguarding Children Board has published its report this morning on the catalogue of failures in the police and social services.
43:57which led to the continued grooming and rape of a number of girls.
44:02The report is very clear about the failings from all the organisations involved with the young people.
44:08There was more that could and should have been done to protect them.
44:11But the Guardian reports this morning that 83 referrals were made by a worried NHS sexual health team,
44:20who had obviously seen these girls. Why were they ignored and why are they not in your report?
44:26When professionals have got concerns and they're not getting the response that they need,
44:31there is a board policy that says that should be escalated within their own organisation and within social care.
44:37And that wasn't done satisfactorily, obviously.
44:40What's the matter with you?
44:43Driving in.
44:45I just heard someone from Watchdale Council safe building children on the radio.
44:48Hmm.
44:49Saying what?
44:50Have they learnt lessons?
44:52Have they been on a journey?
44:53There is no spin on earth they can put on this to make themselves look good.
44:57They're saying we never shared information.
45:01What?
45:02We didn't escalate our concerns.
45:08They're saying they didn't know.
45:11Because we didn't tell them.
45:14No way.
45:16No way this is happening.
45:18And management's not going to back for us.
45:20She's saying, oh don't we make it Sarah?
45:22Truth will come out at some point.
45:24Right, we're going to the union.
45:28I feel like I'm going mad.
45:33It's not you, it's everybody else.
45:36That's what mad people think.
45:39Well you do look a bit...
45:43It's the hood.
45:44Let's take the hood down.
45:46I'm not calling for this, you know.
45:49Whistle blowing.
45:51Erin Brockovich in a nana rack.
45:54And Brockovich could have done with a nana rack.
45:57Seven years.
46:04I've been telling people for seven years.
46:09And even now they just don't want to know.
46:14Sir.
46:15I watched the ACC on the steps of the court tie it up in a bow.
46:21Well, it was a very successful operation, Maggie.
46:28But that's not the whole story, is it?
46:29Well, you can be sure that whatever went on down in Rochdale in 2008 will be fully dealt
46:35with by the IPCC.
46:36Yeah, but I'm talking about 2005.
46:38GMP has known that they have a problem with on-street grooming since 2005, at least.
46:45And I know because I was part of a scoping exercise in 2008.
46:52To see whether or not we had a problem in Greater Manchester with child grooming.
46:59And it found that we did.
47:00But nothing was done about it.
47:01But nothing was done about it.
47:06The investigation was dropped.
47:07There were no arrests.
47:08There were no prosecutions.
47:09There were no arrests.
47:10There were no prosecutions.
47:11Sorry, Maggie.
47:12I know.
47:13I know because I was part of a scoping exercise in 2005.
47:16To see whether or not we had a problem in Greater Manchester with child grooming.
47:22And it found that we did.
47:25But nothing was done about it.
47:28The investigation was dropped.
47:30There were no arrests.
47:33There were no prosecutions.
47:35There were no arrests.
47:38Sorry, Maggie.
47:39Is that a question?
47:41Or a grievance?
47:44I'm not comfortable with what we're claiming we knew and didn't know.
47:50And I'm not comfortable with the way that we're treating victims.
47:55I wasn't comfortable in 2005 and I'm not comfortable now.
47:59Is this about Amber Bowen?
48:02This is about the ethics of subjecting vulnerable witnesses to months of questioning.
48:08And then dropping them with no explanation and no further action against anyone that they've named.
48:15Amber Bowen is a very particular case.
48:20No.
48:21She wasn't.
48:22She was a victim.
48:23Just like the other girls.
48:25But no one was ever arrested or even interviewed in relation to what they did to her.
48:37Look.
48:38I know you've had this explained to you many times before, Margaret.
48:41Yes, but not in a way that makes me feel any better about the decision.
48:45But I will go over it with you again.
48:49There was no way that girl was going in the witness box.
48:54CPS was absolutely clear about that.
48:57And it was their call to make.
48:59But they then realised a little bit late in the day, it must be said, that they needed the girl's evidence.
49:11So they had to find a tactical way to introduce it at trial.
49:16Well, how do you use someone's evidence if you don't call them as a witness?
49:21By putting them on the indictment.
49:27Amber was named as one of the co-conspirators with the men.
49:32What?
49:33It was purely tactical, Margaret.
49:36No one was interested in prosecuting her.
49:40Does she know about this?
49:42Has anyone even bothered to tell her?
49:45I'm sure she was kept fully informed.
49:51What?
49:54Alright!
49:59What's all this?
50:00Can you just take it?
50:01What do you say?
50:03Help me!
50:04What's happened?
50:07What's wrong with you?
50:12They're trying to take off.
50:14Who are? Who's trying to take her?
50:15Social services. They call me and they're trying to get a cart date.
50:18Don't be so thick, I'll do that.
50:20Well, Fala, you're brilliant, Mum.
50:23What are they saying you've done?
50:24No, they're not saying I've done it out.
50:25They're saying there's a risk that I could, though.
50:28As if I'd do anything to hurt her.
50:31Why me, Mum?
50:32Why is it always me?
50:40Don't open it, Mum, don't.
50:41It might be Ruby.
50:42No, it's not Ruby.
50:43Ruby's got keys.
50:44No, it's...
50:45Please, Mum.
50:47It's OK.
50:48Right?
50:49It's OK.
50:50They're gone.
50:54They're gone.
50:59Mona, it's Maggie.
51:01It's Margaret Oliver.
51:03Maggie.
51:10What are you doing?
51:12Coming here.
51:13Now.
51:14You didn't return me calls.
51:15You replied to me texts.
51:16You promised all sorts.
51:18I shouldn't have known them to trust the police.
51:22I'm not the police.
51:23Then why are you tearing up here, then?
51:24Because no one can tell me not to.
51:28I've left GMP.
51:30I've resigned.
51:31I, um...
51:34I...
51:34I...
51:38I...
51:39I don't know what the police told you about why you didn't get to go to court.
51:45I don't care.
51:47I don't give a shit about that, no.
51:48They didn't say nothing.
51:50Just they're using Ruby, but they're not using her.
51:52That decision, I strongly disagreed with it.
51:57But I...
51:58I got taken off the job after that and, um, ordered not to have any contact with you.
52:04But, at some point, the powers that be decided that, um, though they weren't gonna call you as a witness, they still needed to be able to use your evidence.
52:16And as a way of doing that, you were named by the Crown on one of the charges.
52:23Oh, do you mean?
52:23The Crown listed you, alongside the men, on a charge of conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with the child.
52:33What that means is that you were as responsible as the men for what happened to Holly and Ruby and all the other girls.
52:50So they're calling me a rapist?
52:52Is that what you're saying?
52:56They're calling me a paedophile.
53:02That's why this is happening.
53:05Why? What's happening?
53:06Don't tell her. Don't tell her nothing.
53:08They're trying to take Yasmin off her.
53:11Why?
53:12Why?
53:14Why?
53:14Of course they want to take her off my...
53:16Not because of how I've done to her, just...
53:18Because of...
53:20Me.
53:20Who I am.
53:23And what's happened to me.
53:26And they never could.
53:30But now I've been named as a fucking sex offender.
53:33I have got no chance.
53:34Well, that's not gonna happen.
53:35First thing tomorrow, you're gonna go and get a solicitor and I'm gonna come with you.
53:39Why do you care?
53:40Why are you even here?
53:41Because I let you down.
53:45I gained your trust and I promised you things and...
53:51I betrayed you.
53:56It was me you trusted.
53:58It was me you poured your heart out to.
54:01And...
54:02I'm sorry.
54:06Because that's not how you treat people.
54:10That's not why I became a police officer.
54:12I couldn't help you as a police officer.
54:26But maybe I can help you now.
54:28Why?
54:31Because you need it.
54:33And because you deserve it.
54:35And when it all comes out, what's been done to girls like you, and it will,
54:51I want to look back and say I was on the right side of it.
54:54I want to see you again.
55:24Do you think the failure in Rochdale was due to incompetence or indifference?
55:35And this is a select committee, and I know you will answer frankly, Ms. Robotham.
55:39It was attitudes towards teenagers.
55:42It was absolute disrespect that vulnerable young people did not have a voice,
55:50that they were overlooked, that they were discriminated against,
55:53and they were treated appallingly by protective services.
55:59See, I think we need an absolute shift in what constitutes a reliable witness.
56:06As I've already explained, those young people do not present as clear-cut victims.
56:15They don't clearly state, you know, I am being abused.
56:19They are absolutely entrenched in a horrible set of manipulation and coercion.
56:28They are living in absolute fear.
56:32So they won't easily fit a box that allows a judicial system to easily see that this is a child that is being abused.
56:43Oh, how is that?
56:55Oh, yeah.
57:00Hey.
57:01How was that?
57:03Oh, my God.
57:33Oh, my God.
58:03Oh, my God.
58:33Oh, my God.
59:03Oh, my God.
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