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This edition of India First covers Russian President Vladimir Putin's state visit to India for the 23rd India-Russia Annual Summit.
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00:00Hello and welcome to an India Today special broadcast. I am Gaurav Savant.
00:04Prime Minister Narendra Modi has described the India-Russia relationship as the Dhruvthara or the pole star.
00:14A star that guides this relationship.
00:18And as we talk about this, let me quickly take you to Rashtrapati Bhavan.
00:22The Russian President Vladimir Putin has just arrived at the Rashtrapati Bhavan for the state banquet.
00:28And President Draupadi Murmu is hosting President Putin and the ministers with him, his official delegation for the state banquet, for that official dinner.
00:42And this is the last leg of President Putin's visit to India.
00:46After the state banquet, he flies back to Moscow.
00:51But this is important.
00:53This is the grand finale of a very, very important visit.
00:59And of course, the relationship between India and Russia.
01:02I quickly want to cut across to India Today's Shivani Sharma joining us with more on this.
01:08Shivani, a befitting banquet.
01:12The last pit stop, if I may, before the President flies back to Moscow.
01:17So, key takeaways from this visit and what happens at the banquet now.
01:25See, Gaurav, the banquet has been hosted with special delicacies and love between India and Russia.
01:32There's a blend in these delicacies, which also involve the Kashmiri Vazwa and also Russian delicacies out here.
01:40The tri-services band playing out Russian as well as Indian music out here.
01:45President Draupadi Murmu has welcomed Russian President Putin out here.
01:49And the dignitaries are being served.
01:53And when we talk about the key takeaways, Gaurav, this has been a tremendous 29-hour-long meeting that started right when Prime Minister Narendra Modi reached the airport to welcome his friend, President Putin.
02:07And since then, the engagements are on.
02:10The conversation started back then.
02:12And before he leaves, a banquet has been arranged beautifully to wrap this visit because this is an important visit.
02:21The whole world is looking at this.
02:22And the way the joint statement and the press statements came out, there is a 70-paragraph joint statement that has been released.
02:31All these areas, be it the space, be it the civil nuclear energy, be it health, be it military, be it counter-terrorism efforts, everything has been included.
02:41And the bonhomie between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Putin has been quite evident since he arrived in India.
02:46And also, formal invitation for next year's India-Russia summit has also been extended to Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
02:53The focus this time, Shivani, very clearly remained on taking this relationship forward on the economic and trade aspect, not so much defence.
03:05Yes, there was talk about space and civil nuclear energy, but more about mobility, space, pharmaceuticals, dairies, fisheries, greater access to the Russian market.
03:17So there's a lot that both India and Russia can take away from this meeting.
03:21Gaurab, when it comes to defence, the strategy of India has changed, especially after Galwan.
03:30We are more producing ourselves and Atmanirabhar Bharat has been the mantra, self-reliance has been the mantra.
03:38So when it comes to defence ties, certainly there has been a decrease in what India has been importing from countries, including Russia.
03:44And certainly when it comes to trade ties, last year also there was an increase of 12% between India and Russia's bilateral trade.
03:52But now a new target has been set for 2030 that comes to $100 billion between India and Russia.
03:58And that not only includes defence, but many other spheres, be it the education sector, the health sector, the AI, innovations, a lot more.
04:08So India and Russia are opening up tremendously in various sectors and defence, though there is a certain discussion that the deals will be sealed in the coming time.
04:20We have seen that...
04:21Keep track of that story, Shivani.
04:22I will come back to you for more on that.
04:25But for the moment, I want to bring you back to our studio and in the India Today studio, we are recreating that Kremlin hall where India Today's Geetha Mohan and Anjana Om Kashyap spoke to President Putin.
04:45Both of them are with me on this special broadcast.
04:49That's our Top Focus story.
04:55So on India First, I want to begin this conversation with two superb journalists.
05:09Two of India Today and Anjana's finest and what a scoop, what a scoop, Geetha and Anjana.
05:17Spectacular.
05:18Truly, truly spectacular.
05:19Anyone would, you know, give an arm and a leg for what, and more for this scoop.
05:25But let's dive straight into this.
05:27What was their experience like, Geetha and then Anjana?
05:30What was this experience like, this Ekaterina Hall?
05:36Katharine Hall.
05:37So tell me, what was it like?
05:39So it's called Ekaterina Hall and I'll start with where we are standing right now, Gaurav.
05:46Because when we went for the recce and we were looking at all these places, you see on the left-hand side where the curtains are, is exactly where a carpet is laid and a table and chairs are put.
05:56And that's where most of the interviews happen, including Tucker Carlson's interview.
06:01That was where it happens.
06:03And then our team went in and our group managing editor, production, Samakya, was leading the entire production of this interview.
06:13So he went there and he saw the statue and he went up to the press, assistant press secretary.
06:20And he said, can we get this?
06:21And he was talking to me and he said, you know, they want this, they want that statue as the backdrop.
06:27Lo and behold, you know, it symbolizes a lot.
06:29It's a female warrior symbolizing Russia, two women journalists interviewing Putin.
06:35It just fell in place in terms of symbolism.
06:37But we didn't know it then.
06:40He just wanted the statue.
06:42And so then he pushed for it and we got it.
06:45They were professional.
06:47They agreed to things.
06:49They said, it's your interview.
06:51And then later he said, this is the first interview that's not taking place where it normally does.
06:55This is the first time this statue is the backdrop of an interview.
06:59Anjana, what was that experience like for you to be at Kremlin, to interview President Putin?
07:05Because, and you knew every word that he'd say, the whole world was watching.
07:11Absolutely.
07:11And that is how we opened the entire interview, talking about two old friends who were meeting.
07:15And probably they would share a lot of warmth and everybody would be, you know, uncomfortable about it.
07:21But the best thing was that we were interviewing him before his India visit.
07:24So, Gaurav, this was, this experience is actually unmatched.
07:28It's like, I mean, I'm still, you know, trying to relive a lot of those moments.
07:33Because every time we would reach a historic place, I would tell those guys who were escorting us around,
07:38let me soak this in.
07:39Let me soak this in.
07:40Let me take this in.
07:41Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:43Yeah, you're in Kremlin.
07:44And the point is that what we need to understand, Gaurav, is that a lot of mystery and enigma has been built around Vladimir Putin.
07:52Oh, absolutely.
07:52He has been portrayed by the Western media like a bloodthirsty, czar kind of a person who wants to build his empire again.
08:02See, the Russia-Ukraine war has to be seen in perspective.
08:05Prime Minister Narendra Modi sat next to him and said, we are not neutral.
08:09We are, we want peace.
08:10Yep.
08:11So, India's hand is absolutely clear on that and that is what all of us think.
08:14But I do feel that, you know, he's been portrayed in a certain way that Kremlin is something that nobody can pierce through.
08:23Nobody can go inside.
08:24Behind the iron curtain.
08:26No, we were told we could shoot inside.
08:28Yeah, and intrigue.
08:29We were told, Gita, that we could shoot inside.
08:32So, they were okay with it.
08:33Some parts like where his house was because that's super high security.
08:37Otherwise, important parts where there were many.
08:39In fact, the second time when we were there, Jared Kushner and Steve Witkopf, they were holding a meeting with Putin.
08:45Yeah.
08:46A few rooms away.
08:47Yeah.
08:47We were right there.
08:48And everything was just happening in front of our eyes.
08:51The three best important takeaways for me from this interview.
08:54Number one, Kremlin has always been portrayed as this massive iron curtain that you talked about.
09:01Everything hidden.
09:03Nothing comes out.
09:04No cameras allowed.
09:05That entire, you can say, that image absolutely broke.
09:10Absolutely broke for me.
09:11It's like KGB agents everywhere.
09:13I was walking in every day.
09:15Maybe they were there, but at least they were not stifling us.
09:18Okay.
09:19Three days.
09:20Yeah.
09:21Like, continuously.
09:22And then at the end of it, I told those guys that, I mean,
09:24probably you can give us a place to live here now, until you don't give us the interview.
09:28So it was that nice.
09:29His team was so perfect, immaculate with all their arrangements.
09:34There would be a person waiting for us outside London Library and this entire Kremlin place.
09:39They would escort us in a car, get all our cars checked and our passports checked, equipment checked.
09:45And even the RT-PCRs or all the tests that were done, because we were sitting in very close vicinity with the president.
09:52Everything was done.
09:53Everything was arranged by them.
09:54They were very forthcoming.
09:56And they were also looking forward to this interview, which makes me come to the point that Russia also values,
10:02and in these times, they also need India.
10:04Oh, absolutely.
10:05Yeah.
10:05And if he openly said that, I want to bring an import expo there and try and tell my people what they can buy from India.
10:12Yeah.
10:12So he was actually trying to hit certain notes.
10:15Yeah.
10:15You need jobs.
10:16That interview with India today.
10:18You need business.
10:18You need jobs.
10:19We're here.
10:20And at least with India today, he knew there was no agenda that was being peddled.
10:24Yes.
10:24There were no half-truths or absolute lies like the West.
10:27Look at his body language.
10:27Gaurav, he was so relaxed.
10:28Yeah.
10:28Also, no holds barred interview.
10:30No holds barred.
10:31They didn't ask you for questions.
10:33No.
10:33They didn't.
10:33They asked us for broad areas because the president has to be prepared.
10:37In fact, after his meetings got over, Gaurav, we were told that all his engagements are over
10:43and now he's going to just get briefed and prepare himself ahead of the interview.
10:49And that was about three hours from when the interview actually started.
10:53That's how prepared he came without the questions, just the fact that we gave them broad areas.
11:00When we were discussing, we said, okay, do you want specific areas?
11:03They said, no, we do not want.
11:05We just want, we don't want specifics.
11:07You can ask him whatever you want to.
11:10We just want areas so that he knows what you want to talk about.
11:13And within that realm, he'll answer whatever.
11:15So it was a no holds barred interview, truly so.
11:18And the translation, because your questions were in English and in Hindi, real time.
11:23Real time.
11:24That was a first for us.
11:25Fantastic.
11:26It was a first for me.
11:27It was very, very, very easy.
11:30But you had to concentrate a lot.
11:32You had to, because there were times when...
11:34Because you picked up our questions from his answers.
11:35When we are like that, you know, like somebody's saying something and we have ten questions in our mind.
11:39So when he said, Whitkoff, yeah, I was talking to Whitkoff in the other room.
11:43I said, you weren't talking just to Whitkoff.
11:44There were two of them.
11:45Mr. Jared Kushner as well.
11:47So he says, yeah, two versus one.
11:49And you know, somehow that symphony fell in place.
11:51And he said, you know, and again, you know, if we talk about takeaways, sense of humor.
11:56I asked him about his meeting with Jared Kushner and Steve Whitkoff.
11:59And I said, I'd love to be a flower on the wall, given that that's my beat.
12:03He said, oh, well, you wouldn't have wanted to.
12:05It was rather boring.
12:07Five hours.
12:07I was bored.
12:09Imagine.
12:10Imagine for a president to say that.
12:11But that's the closest he ever got to saying something which could land him in a problem with U.S.
12:18Otherwise, he was very careful.
12:20He was very careful, is my reading.
12:22And he's supremely confident.
12:24He knows what he wants to say, Anjana.
12:26He wants to, you know, what he wants to convey.
12:28And he has an end game in mind.
12:30Three points which will convince you about this.
12:33When I asked him about that energy thing, he was very clear.
12:36He said, U.S. is buying nuclear energy from us.
12:39And they want to tell you not to buy oil.
12:41About hypocrisy oil.
12:42Second, I don't want to go to G8.
12:44We've looked at each other like, you don't want to enter G8?
12:47He said, no.
12:48Because those were the reports.
12:49See, everything is about reports.
12:50And we were debunking those reports.
12:52Which is why international media, including CNN, said, there's a lot to learn from the India Today interview.
12:57Yeah.
12:57Because you keep putting these, you know, articles out about how Putin is pushing for G8.
13:03And when I asked him, he said, no.
13:06He said, no, I don't want to.
13:08And the third thing that I was talking about, so these two points where,
13:11his sense of clarity on issues was very clear.
13:13The other was USSR.
13:15When we categorically asked him, she asked him about reintegration.
13:18No, he asked him about disintegration.
13:20And he had a perfect answer for that.
13:21And then I said, what about reintegration?
13:23Because that also media keeps citing.
13:25And a lot of European countries say, oh, we are next.
13:28If it's Ukraine, we are next.
13:29Yeah.
13:29He said, I have no such interest because it will change how the composition of Russia culturally and religiously.
13:37That's, again, something very important.
13:39You know, he's big on history, on civilization.
13:43And he sees himself quite like Prime Minister Narendra Modi as somebody who's there to bring about a change for the betterment of his country.
13:53Well, he does think Russia is foremost when it comes to how he's thinking, decisions he's taking and policies he's making.
14:03He is doing what he thinks is right for his country and which is why when we were asking him questions, he focused on strategic autonomy.
14:11Yes, he did.
14:12Something that India keeps talking about.
14:14And he respects Prime Minister Narendra Modi for that.
14:17Oh, he was slipping in this every little opportunity that he had.
14:21He would slip in the Indian growth story.
14:23He was like, this is not the India of the 70s.
14:26So I think whatever time he took to concentrate on the interview, he put all that focus on how to describe India, the India that exists today.
14:34So that was very interesting.
14:35He would, and he would talk about Narendra Modi all the time.
14:38Like, my question was, how do you characterize Trump?
14:41He said, I do not want to characterize a colleague.
14:43But when it came to Prime Minister Modi, he was just, he was just so enamored by him.
14:48And probably also because he values this relationship a lot.
14:51I mean, imagine 100 minutes of an interview, who's doing this?
14:54He did it because this was, it's not that something happened suddenly.
14:58It's because the Russians, the Russian president has a clear view about India.
15:04He wants to penetrate every Indian household.
15:08And he knows that the Aaj Tak India Today group can do it.
15:11He picks on us and then we are there in front of him.
15:13And he gives us a, like she's saying, no holds barred interview.
15:16And he's so relaxed.
15:18Look at him.
15:19You talk to him about his, KGB days, I asked him.
15:22She asked him, which CIA or KGB.
15:24And I'm getting the maximum responses on these questions.
15:27People are like.
15:27And Mossad.
15:28I mean, you know, my.
15:29He mentioned it himself.
15:30He mentioned Mossad.
15:32That's, it was, it was absolutely.
15:34I think two things this will do for Putin as well.
15:38It is big for us.
15:39And it also puts Indian media on a very important platform in the world.
15:43And all this Western media that has dominated the entire narrative for years and years.
15:47Because we've, you know, kind of put forth.
15:50We bring out facts.
15:51And only facts.
15:52And you asked him tough questions.
15:53Both of you.
15:54You didn't spare him on questions that the world would want answers to the Russian origin
16:00people in Ukraine.
16:01Russian speaking people.
16:02Russian origin.
16:02And what he had said on Kiev.
16:03I said, you've said it's the mother of all Russian cities.
16:06So what's your, what did you mean by that?
16:08But the best thing is that what did he do for Putin is that the maximum reviews I'm getting
16:13now is that in this conversation, a leader and a man came across to them.
16:19They're thinking he, he shakes hands with people.
16:24He talks to people.
16:25He's so relaxed.
16:25He's so relaxed with you.
16:27In fact, the BTS was very interesting.
16:29I also want to ask what Anjana was saying when he, when, when, when she spoke about, you
16:32know, this interview, why was it important to give it to an Indian network?
16:36And why is it important that India today got it, Gaurav, is because it's not just penetrating
16:40every Indian home.
16:41It's about telling the world that we do not need Western media to sound legitimate and
16:47credible.
16:48Yeah, we don't crave legitimacy.
16:50Absolutely.
16:50No, I'm talking about Russia.
16:51That, that they can give it to an Indian network and be heard everywhere in the world.
16:56True.
16:57So we have made a mark where we did not focus just on India.
17:00We focused on every question that, that concerns Russia when it comes to the world.
17:07We asked him tough questions on Trump.
17:09We asked him about Russia, Ukraine.
17:11We asked him about Gaza.
17:13We asked him about Israel, Palestine.
17:15AI, Gen Z.
17:16Iran, Gen Z.
17:17The Gen Z protests.
17:19Taliban, Afghanistan.
17:19No, but let me, let me.
17:20Recognizing the Taliban.
17:21Geetha, let's do something else now.
17:22Let's ask Gaurav what was his favorite part of the interview.
17:24What was your reaction?
17:25The fact that you are a favorite part of the interview.
17:27What was your favorite part, Gaurav?
17:28Every bit of it.
17:30In fact, I had the privilege of listening to it.
17:32The whole thing, including the conversation later that happened.
17:36And considering I've reported both from Russia and from Ukraine, like you, during the conflict
17:41and after that, I know where he's coming from and where he's trying to get at.
17:48The West may not understand, especially when he says what he said on Donbass.
17:53And that's where I wanted both of you to respond.
17:55Such clarity of thought that when the war started, or the special operations as he puts
18:01it, Donbass is something that he wanted.
18:05Donetsk and Luhansk.
18:06No getting rid of that.
18:07And you've reported from there.
18:08On either side, by the way.
18:10And Crimea.
18:11And Crimea.
18:11Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea.
18:12Crimea goes without saying there is no way we have ceded that.
18:15It was jointly operated, right?
18:17He said, but to the word annexation, he said, no, we didn't annex it.
18:21It was ours.
18:22It was ours.
18:23We are just saying, we are just claiming it completely.
18:25And that is because there is a threat to Russian national security.
18:30And Crimea is the only warm water port that Russia has.
18:35So, absolute clarity.
18:36I think the interesting part of this entire interview preparation prep was also, Gaurav,
18:40that I and Gita were, you know, very clear that we want proper symphony between us.
18:45You know, a flow of questions.
18:47But we had also prepared in anticipation of what he would answer.
18:52So, we were like, which parts are you, what are the red lines?
18:55So, we were clear that he's going to try and evade such questions maybe.
18:59Did we?
18:59So, I think he evaded the China-India question quite smartly.
19:04A little careful.
19:05I think he answered, but he was careful.
19:07See, when he talks about nuclear energy, he's...
19:09In fact, he did not evade Anjana.
19:11He said a very important thing there to you.
19:13He said that I see that they both are making an effort and there is intent to resolve.
19:21He sees it that way.
19:22Because also there must be...
19:24But why I say he evaded that question is because my question was not in the context of Russia
19:28interfering in the Indochina, whatever, differences we have.
19:32How do you see it?
19:33My question was that you want RIC.
19:36You are saying you don't want to go to G8, but you went to China, and now you're coming to India.
19:40You obviously want RIC to be together, but if these two need to be together, then there
19:46needs to be some kind of the same.
19:47Peace at the borders.
19:48And then you are always on walking on tightrope, because you have to balance the two.
19:52You went to China, now you're coming to India.
19:54Also, to ensure that the Chinese hegemony that's happening in the Russian market today
19:57has to somehow be balanced.
19:59How are you balancing India and China?
20:01That was my question.
20:02He took it away from them.
20:04But if he would have said anything, that would have been interference.
20:06Yeah.
20:07In diplomacy, if he would have said anything, that would have been interference.
20:10No, no, no.
20:11He could have said that.
20:12You guys decide.
20:13No, no, no, no, no, Gita.
20:15So the answer could have been, I'm just assuming, could have been the Chinese and the Chinese
20:21people are equally important for me, but keeping this relationship with India is also very
20:25important.
20:26Equally important.
20:27He didn't want to say that.
20:28Equally or, you know, words like that or I value this and I value this more.
20:32He didn't want to say that.
20:33He said that they have to sort their differences.
20:35We will work together.
20:36And in your view, Gita, his love for India and for Prime Minister, his affection for Prime
20:42Minister Narendra Modi comes out very naturally because I was just watching.
20:45He was talking about yoga.
20:47He was talking about Raj Kapoor just a moment ago.
20:49Yeah, arty arty.
20:50Yeah.
20:51So all that comes very naturally to him.
20:52It does.
20:53It does.
20:54He has engaged India through prime ministers, through country, through governments.
21:00And Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been at the helm of affairs at a time that has been
21:06most, most difficult, turbulent and testing times for Russia.
21:11And India stood by Russia come what may.
21:15In fact, if these visuals, not the ones that you're seeing because that is us.
21:19But if the visuals of Modi and Putin are seen closely.
21:23Just a second.
21:24This woman that you're seeing right now.
21:27Yes.
21:28One of our translators.
21:29Oh, I thought she was one of the security, you know.
21:31No, no, no.
21:32So this girl, she was one of our translators.
21:34And you will see the other one in the informal conversation where this other gentleman who
21:38was part of all the translation when we were, you know, like having an informal interaction.
21:43Yeah.
21:44But you will see that girl right now.
21:45She was, this girl.
21:46Yeah.
21:47She was our Hindi, English woman translator.
21:49So what used to happen?
21:50Interpreters.
21:5120 minutes.
21:52Yes.
21:5320 minutes of interpreters.
21:54Yes.
21:55Oh, yeah.
21:56Because they have to concentrate so much on everyone.
21:57No, because they have to write also.
21:58And they write.
21:59Then they write and they're real time writing, doing it.
22:02So they take 20 minutes.
22:03They take turns.
22:04Great.
22:05Amazing.
22:06In fact, Geetha, tell him about what they told us.
22:08Don't be surprised if you get a man's voice in your ear and then suddenly there's a
22:12woman speaking.
22:13And then they prepared us because then they came.
22:15The two officers came and this lady officer and the other gentleman.
22:20And they introduced themselves.
22:22Then they practiced with us.
22:24We did a real time.
22:25Diction, pronunciation.
22:26No, no.
22:27And also real time.
22:28Real time.
22:29How will it sound?
22:30Because for Anjana, it's the first time that she's doing an interpreter.
22:34Yeah.
22:35So they did.
22:36They practiced with us.
22:37Wow.
22:38Somebody was sitting, answering our questions and we were getting it.
22:41We were getting the interpretation so that we were completely prepared before we go
22:45into that interview with the president.
22:48Amazing.
22:49And on that question, if I may, because Anjana, I want to come back to the question
22:54on Ukraine.
22:55The whole world wants an answer to what next in Ukraine.
22:58America wanted an answer.
23:00Absolutely.
23:01And his thinking is very clear in that conversation with you, even off the record.
23:05Absolutely.
23:06I think off the record, we didn't talk much about Russia, Ukraine.
23:08But I think in that very answer, his stand was very, very clear.
23:11He's, he's, he's there and he's still there.
23:14He's, he's not coming back.
23:16No, in fact, yeah.
23:17Those lines seem to be advancing.
23:18Advancing.
23:19The, the manner in which the ingredients.
23:20You know, and then even when she mentioned the port of Crimea, she talked about Crimea.
23:24Yeah.
23:25I could, so what happens is, when you finish your question, and even on the way that life,
23:31The translator.
23:32The translator.
23:33The translator is happening.
23:34Yeah.
23:35So when he heard Crimea and she say that, about the, they say, I heard him laugh midway
23:40in, in hearing to that question.
23:42So this man is absolutely clear.
23:44Also because he understands English.
23:45Yes, he does.
23:46To quite an extent.
23:47He just does not speak it.
23:48He understands English completely.
23:49But even in the off, off record conversation, he was, he wanted a translator.
23:52Yeah.
23:53Because probably, see, like a little thing happened.
23:55We were talking about some other gentleman and there was, so initially we thought he's saying
23:59that he's not sharp.
24:01So three or four of us started laughing.
24:02Yeah.
24:03Then he corrected.
24:04But then the, corrected.
24:05He realized that we didn't get it.
24:06Oh.
24:07He said no.
24:08What did you ask?
24:09I am saying he is sharp.
24:10So, it's so, the point is that there is scope for a little misunderstanding.
24:13I can only assume who you're talking about.
24:14Yeah.
24:15No, no, don't.
24:16And.
24:17No, you assume all you want.
24:18You assume.
24:19Yeah.
24:20No, and the fact he is where he is and finding the way for peace shows he's sharp.
24:25He's very sharp.
24:26Yeah.
24:27Amazing.
24:28He's a big deal on Steve Witkoff because that also made headlines all through Western
24:32networks.
24:33They're very focused on Russia, Ukraine.
24:35He said that the, I asked him 28 point piece proposal, is it out of the table, out of the
24:40window, off the table.
24:41He said, no, it's on the table.
24:42It's just now four packages.
24:44He didn't elaborate on what those four packages are, but they really, which he also hinted at
24:49one thing.
24:50He said, I see intent when it comes to Donald Trump wanting peace, but I also see economic
24:55interests.
24:56Yes.
24:57Oh, absolutely.
24:58Reconstruction would have a lot of oil.
24:59Rare earth.
25:00Rare earth.
25:01Gas.
25:02Rare earth in Ukraine.
25:03Yeah.
25:04A deal that's happened behind the scenes.
25:07So, okay.
25:08So we've digressed a bit.
25:09Let me come back to the interview.
25:10There are many who see him as the new Czar of Russia.
25:15Did you get that impression, either of you, Anjana and Gita?
25:18Absolutely not.
25:19Absolutely not.
25:20And that is where I began, because all this narrative that has been built around him.
25:27Yeah.
25:28He's very warm.
25:29He's very warm.
25:30Like we were, you know, apprehensive if we should be shaking hands, because obviously,
25:33I mean, we have to wait for him to take that other thing.
25:36And he came forth like this.
25:37Yeah.
25:38And then he's smiling.
25:39He's laughing all through the interview.
25:40Yeah.
25:41He's smiling.
25:42And I'm like, okay, I'm asking questions on March 8, 2014.
25:45You were addressing the Federation Council.
25:47Yeah.
25:48And you said Kyiv is the mother of all Russian cities.
25:50What did you mean?
25:51Smiling.
25:52And then he's answering.
25:53And then he's waiting for the next one.
25:54So, he was very engaging.
25:56So, I think this entire thing...
25:57He's engaging.
25:58He was relaxed.
25:59And historically, Kyiv, Russians hold Kyiv in so much respect, the Orthodox Church.
26:03But he also mentioned in that response to you that what they're doing to Orthodox Church
26:08is not correct.
26:09Because now it's separate.
26:10Yeah.
26:11The Orthodox Church in Russia is absolutely separate from the one in Kyiv.
26:16Whereas it was...
26:18Kyiv held the key.
26:19Absolutely.
26:20We've been there, incidentally.
26:21We went there together.
26:22It's beautiful.
26:23You have to see it to believe it.
26:25And, I mean, if this war wasn't there, Russia and Ukraine together as friends are a great
26:31part of the world to be in.
26:32He's just saying that.
26:34If there's no NATO threat, we're great.
26:39I don't want NATO in my backyard as America did not want.
26:44And that's me, not him, saying.
26:46As America did not want Russia in their backyard during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
26:50Yep.
26:51Gareth.
26:52So, there's clarity in what the West is trying to do and what the West wants to do.
26:58To which I said, you know, Zelensky was NATO ever on the table.
27:02He said, you ask that gentleman.
27:04Because he's the one who promised all this.
27:06He's the one who is responsible now for what is happening in Ukraine.
27:13And he went on to actually call him a neo-Nazi.
27:16I think there has to be a realisation.
27:18But he also offered peace through negotiations.
27:21Yeah.
27:22Which is also rare because for the longest they did not want to negotiate with Ukraine.
27:26Now they're saying, come to the negotiating table.
27:28Very, very interesting.
27:30Okay.
27:31Okay.
27:32And your impression, Anjana, that one, he's supremely confident.
27:38He's all there.
27:39He's, despite being one of the most powerful men in the world, Anjana, he's very careful
27:45in what he says, let's say about Donald Trump or Prime Minister Modi or any other world leader.
27:51Exactly.
27:52So, in fact, as soon as the interview was over and we were having this little conversation,
27:56he actually said that you were trying to get me there so that I would say something, but I did not.
28:01You know what we're talking about.
28:03So, I assess him as a politician who does not fear the West.
28:09Russia stepped into this century with him.
28:12He has been at the top for a quarter of a century.
28:15Yep.
28:16At the same time, this man is not going to stoop to the level of some other politicians
28:21who name people, who abuse people openly.
28:25He was very categoric.
28:26Like, he had to say, you're buying nuclear energy and you want to stop India.
28:29I don't want to be part of G8.
28:31So, these things were coming.
28:33So, that showed clearly that he doesn't fear the West.
28:36But he did not want to name and shame anyone individually.
28:39So, I think a very mature leader who knows that when he talks or when he speaks, a country
28:44and its people are at stake.
28:46So, you have to be careful about what you're saying.
28:48He knows that responsibility.
28:50So, I think you have to give it to him that in spite of the fact that he's probably, you know,
28:56one of the most influential and like the most second powerful, most powerful nation's head,
29:02he was very clear that I will not misuse this thing to like, you know, slightly talk about anyone.
29:09I think kind of old school.
29:11Yeah.
29:1225 years.
29:13Which is nice, which is pleasant, right?
29:14Yeah.
29:1525 years.
29:16But congratulations once again, Geeta and Anjana for this brilliant, brilliant scoop.
29:21And this is something that we'll be talking about, we'll all be talking about for such a long time.
29:25Thank you very much for joining me.
29:26Thank you, Gaurav.
29:27Thank you for having us.
29:28Yes.
29:29Great scoop my colleagues had.
29:30I now want to throw this open for a wider discussion with our guests who are joining us on this broadcast also.
29:37The key takeaways from the discussions and deliberations that happened today.
29:42So, Prime Minister Narendra Modi described this relationship as the poll star.
29:48Dhruv Tara guiding the way through thick and thin.
29:52So, what should one make of the outcomes of the meetings today?
29:56Now, joining me on India first is Admiral Shekhar Sina, former Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Western Naval Command.
30:03Pinak Ranjan Chakravarti's former High Commissioner of India to Bangladesh.
30:07Again, somebody who looks at India-Russia relationship and India-Europe very closely.
30:11Ambassador Ashok Sajjanhar joins me on the show.
30:14Ambassador Sajjanhar was posted as our ambassador to Kazakhstan.
30:18Somebody who's looking at the trade, was looking at the trade deals with the region very closely.
30:22And Ambassador Sajjanhar, is a new world order emerging challenging the Europe-centric discourse and approach and decision-making?
30:32What did you make of President Putin's visit to India and his interactions with Prime Minister Narendra Modi?
30:38Yes, thank you very much, Gaurav, for having me.
30:43You know, the world order is definitely changing.
30:46Which way it is going, I think it is still very unclear.
30:49So, you know, meaning if I were to say that a new world order is emerging, then possibly I would also need to identify what are the contours of that world order.
31:00So, yes, things are changing. There is definitely in terms of...
31:07Okay. Sir, give me a moment as we re-establish this link with you.
31:12Ambassador Chakravarti, is the US seeking peace?
31:16Is Russia also looking for an off-ramp when it comes to this conflict with Ukraine?
31:21And are some European countries egging Ukraine on to fight?
31:25How do you see the equations right now?
31:28You know, you've had world leaders engaging Russia.
31:32At the same time, is Europe being left out?
31:35Look, I think each country and each, what you mentioned, Europe, not a country, but a grouping, they're all looking at their own, you know, interests, really.
31:48And so I feel that all this will be ultimately lead to some balancing of foreign policy goals of each of these entities.
31:59And I think India and Russia are clearly showing the way that they are not going to sit back and accept the dictates of various countries like the US or the Europeans and others.
32:14The Europeans actually are in a little bit of a tight corner because they don't know where exactly to...
32:23Because Trump has turned against them because Trump is now pushing for peace.
32:28Well, the Europeans do not want peace.
32:31I cannot understand why the Europeans are doing this.
32:35Either it is some historical hatred for Russia or the fear of Russia.
32:40Something is driving the Europeans to take this position.
32:45Or they see this war as a good, you know, opportunity for their defense industries, which as we normally used to say that America needs a war to make its military industrial complex thrive and profit.
33:02But this time I think Trump really wants to pull back and get some peace date going.
33:08Okay.
33:09Whereas Zelensky is not willing and the Europeans are egging him on.
33:13So this is the kind of peculiar situation we are in.
33:16But whatever it is, India and Russia have gone ahead with their relationship.
33:21So India and Russia want to move ahead but, you know, do we risk additional sanctions if we increase our partnership with Russia beyond, you know, what it is?
33:34So, Ambassador, let me bring in Admiral Shekhar Sinha into this conversation.
33:40Admiral Sinha, do we risk additional sanctions if we improve economic ties with Russia?
33:45Or, in your view, has the US seen the futility of its actions?
33:50This visit, if you notice, on defense, it was relatively low-key.
33:55There was more on opening of Russian markets for Indian goods and services, space or energy, including the small modular reactors.
34:05Thank you, Gaurav, for getting me on your program.
34:08I quite agree with what Ambassador Pinak just mentioned.
34:12You know, the Americans should get a message.
34:16If they don't and if they put more sanctions, actually speaking, it doesn't matter to India now.
34:21It really doesn't matter.
34:22Because if it is a sanction between two of them, they would have already discussed the, you know, this rupee, ruble trade.
34:29Or is there a third party from which may be a Diram from UAE or something?
34:33And I think that something is cooking.
34:35And that's good for the, you know, having a multipolarity in the world.
34:39First thing is currency, I would guess.
34:41Like you rightly said that there's nothing in the open domain that what has happened in the defense collaboration.
34:47But mind you, there are a lot of indirect or rather dual-use technologies where defense is very much there.
34:54For example, space.
34:56You know, we need to launch many more satellites to get, you know, equal with the Chinese.
35:03We may not get equal but we should be able to deter the Chinese from destroying arms.
35:07Sure.
35:08Satellites.
35:09That's number one.
35:10There has been some on the artificial intelligence and cyber security.
35:16The Russians are very good in cyber.
35:19As you know, the Americans keep complaining that, you know, the Russians have jammed their so-and-so circuit and they have gone over and done that.
35:26So I think that, you know, the threat of sanction, to my mind, it really doesn't matter.
35:34Though, the fact is that the reliance industry has reduced the import of oil from Russia and there are already, if I recall, the CMD of the chairman of the reliance industry was in Saudi Arabia about two weeks back.
35:51And I'm sure he would have met, you know, the Mohammed bin Salman and they would have had some talk.
35:57The talk that I can think of, well, he can buy a share in their federal company.
36:03And if he buys a share, then it is legal to take things at a, you know, a price for what they would give to companies.
36:10But the way the MOUs were signed today, Ambassador Sajjanhar, the number of MOUs that were inked,
36:18when we're looking at greater access to Russian market for our pharmaceuticals, for labor movement,
36:25when you talk about deepening ties, raising it to $100 billion by 2030.
36:30And Prime Minister was hopeful it could happen way before 2030.
36:34Looking at the conference, okay, give me a moment.
36:37I want to show you those images and these are live images of that state dinner at the Rashtrapati Bhawan.
36:45President Putin, Prime Minister Narendra Modi with him, the Vice President on the other side.
36:50And President Draupadi Murmu is reading the welcome.
36:56And Nirmala Sitaraman, the finance minister, the Russian finance minister.
37:01Then I can see Kirti Vardhan Singh, Minister of State for External Affairs.
37:05The Vice President on the other side of President Putin, Dmitry Peskov, to his side.
37:12The Russian finance minister, the Russian defence minister, the Russian health minister also seen in these images.
37:19Okay, and I can also see Commerce Minister Pyush Goyal in these images.
37:25I don't know if we have audio through that and we're getting these images courtesy.
37:31RT India, RT incidentally, is the Russian channel that has just launched in India.
37:36And Russian President Vladimir Putin was just there at the launch of RT.
37:41This again is one way for the world to know the Russian perspective through India.
37:47And, you know, let's try and listen in. Let's see if there's an audio link to that.
37:51So, shortly, hopefully, we will see that.
38:19So, shortly, hopefully, we will get you more on that.
38:23But, Ambassador Sajjanhar, if I could come back to you.
38:26If we were to increase our bilateral trade to $100 billion by 2030, or as the Prime Minister said even before that,
38:33do we risk additional sanctions if the Russia-Ukraine war is not sorted out quickly?
38:40Well, thank you very much, Gaurav, for having me on the show.
38:44And my apologies that the connection didn't work earlier.
38:47No, I don't think we can have, you know, any fear of any sanctions.
38:53$100 billion is not all that huge an amount.
38:56I think for our own bilateral purposes, we'll really have to see that it is, you know, what is the composition of the trade, that it is not heavily weighted against us, that the trade deficit that we have at the moment, you know, about $60 billion out of a total trade of about $68.7 billion.
39:15You know, that's not sustainable.
39:16You know, that's not sustainable.
39:17And, you know, for two strategic partners, special privilege partnership, etc.
39:23It doesn't work.
39:24It doesn't work.
39:25So, you know, it has.
39:26But that having been said, I think what I could sense from the meetings and from the pronouncements and also what Mr. Putin said in the interview that he gave to your two colleagues, Geeta and Anjana, you know, that there is determination on both sides to enhance this partnership.
39:46You know, because we've been talking about defense, we've been talking about oil, we've been talking about nuclear energy.
39:51These are the three pillars.
39:53And, you know, it is dismal if you take out the oil component and the fertilizer component, the total trade is just about $10 billion.
40:01You know, meaning I have been to, I have served in Moscow on two occasions.
40:06We have always worked towards increasing that trade.
40:11And, you know, the target was $30 billion by 2025.
40:16Now we have $69 billion, but it's heavily weighted against us.
40:22As he said, it's not sustainable.
40:23Both of them have now determined what are the items that can be exported, additional items that can be exported from India.
40:32And there is also the free trade agreement between India and the European Economic Union.
40:39I think that could also serve as a game changer.
40:42Ambassador Chakravarti, you know, while there was conversation, you know, since Ambassador Sajjanar also mentioned that exclusive interview to India today,
40:51President Putin in a way exposed the hypocrisy of the West and especially United States of America when he said they continue to buy uranium from Russia,
41:02they continue to buy fertilizers and yet impose additional penalty and tariffs on India.
41:07Do you see forward movement on that?
41:10How would the West be viewing this Bonhami between India and Russia?
41:15Will America double down?
41:17Or in your view, would they systematically want to perhaps backtrack and bring the India-US relationship on an even keel?
41:25Well, I think, as you said, it won't go down very well because they don't like what's happening because they think India should not get close to Russia.
41:35But that's their view and we have our own view.
41:38And you are talking about more sanctions.
41:41I don't know whether they will come or not.
41:44If they come, then I think Indo-US relations will slide further.
41:48And we will have to then look at other markets as we are doing now.
41:54The Eurasian one mentioned by Ashok is another one that if we can get that going, then we will have more markets coming.
42:03And my understanding is that even some of the exports which were hit very hard by the additional sanctions imposed by Trump,
42:13they seem to be recovering because other markets are coming up.
42:17In fact, Prime Minister Narendra Modi specifically mentioned dairy and fisheries in context of Russia with that MOU, sir.
42:25Exactly.
42:26So, Russia is a big market.
42:28And I think if we can divert some of those exports to Russia,
42:32and Russia needs some of these consumer items which they buy from elsewhere,
42:38we have to be competitive, of course.
42:40And then I think some non-tariff barriers are there which need to be removed.
42:45And also the transportation to Russia is a little expensive.
42:50So, we need to start connectivity which we are doing from Chennai and other places.
42:56So, these are some of the things that we need to plan and it is being planned and put it into practice.
43:03And Admiral Chennai, your assessment of the significance of the MOU on shipbuilding,
43:08that's something that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been big on.
43:12And the navigation of Arctic waters, polar waters skilling.
43:18If that starts happening now, how soon do we see an impact?
43:23You know, the icebreakers, are we getting into that region which will be desperately needed perhaps 10 to 20 years from now or even sooner?
43:32Sir, request you to unmute yourself.
43:39Shipbuilding is a very good move because if you see this Agarmala project,
43:47there has been approval already given to make two shipyards, one on the east coast and one on the west coast.
43:53And that the government is going to invest a lot of money.
43:56So, the Russian shipbuilders, if they come and tie up with any of our shipbuilders,
44:01so that's going to be a good move.
44:04But I would think, but that only going to increase the trade deficit.
44:08So, what I would believe that India should invest in companies together with the Russians in Russia,
44:18which will give you a little more outing of your own money and reduce the little bit of deficit.
44:25So, I wouldn't be surprised that if the shipbuilding company is actually in Russia and, you know,
44:31with the Indian partnership and India investing some money there in FDI and that ship should be building for both India and Russia.
44:39The second one that you talked about the Arctic navigation.
44:42Now, there is no hurry.
44:43But, you know, you never know the manner in which the world is changing.
44:48Tomorrow, this might be a better route to send your, you know, shall I say this?
44:54Goods to the west.
44:56Yeah.
44:57To the Atlantic and countries very close to Atlantic.
45:00The European Union etc. etc. with whom our trade is improving.
45:04But more importantly, you know, it is getting a little bit, shall I say, weaponized.
45:10Arctic is getting weaponized a little bit.
45:12Yes.
45:13And you see that the, you know, if there is a talk of sending some American troops and some nuclear weapons on the Infiniens.
45:22I think we're getting the first image.
45:24I think we're getting the first image of the gifts that are being presented.
45:29And if I can read that correctly, that's a Sam T that has been presented.
45:34And I would ask our producers to, you know, give us more details on, you know, some of the gifts that have been exchanged and presented to the Russian president from the Indian side.
45:54Let me get you more on that in just a moment.
45:59So, okay, so this is fine Assam black tea.
46:04Tea grown in the fertile Brahmaputra plains, priced for its robust flavor, bright liquor and traditional processing.
46:14Also, the recognized GI tag in 2007.
46:18So there's Assam tea that's been presented.
46:21There's on it silver tea set.
46:23This is from Murshidabad, a silver tea set.
46:26Intricately carved.
46:29This again is one of the presents.
46:31And incidentally, in both societies, Russia and India, tea is a symbol of warmth, connection and shared stories.
46:41Admiral Sina, you've been to Russia so many times, as has Ambassador Chakravarti and Ambassador Sajanhar.
46:49The tea ceremony is huge.
46:51The bread and tea ceremony.
46:53But that's true.
46:54You're right.
46:55I mean, tea is really considered, you know, it's just like having kahwa when you go to the West Asian countries.
47:01They begin with kahwa and they end with kahwa.
47:04Or cafe, as they call it.
47:06So there's a very similar thing here in Russia.
47:08You know, you start, if you're not at a dinner banquet, you start with tea and the tea just carries on.
47:13Tea never seems to finish on the side table.
47:16Give me a moment, let's listen in to President Putin.
47:18...creating its own future.
47:19They helped construct major infrastructural energy sites and the development of the space program.
47:31I mean, in December, 15 years ago, we signed a very important declaration that elevated our relations to a new level, the level of the specially privileged strategic partnership.
47:4615 years ago, we signed a very important declaration that elevated our relations to a new level, the level of the specially privileged strategic partnership.
47:53And this partnership is developing based on the principles of equality, respect and mutual consideration of our interests.
48:12And it is getting substantiated even more.
48:17Our talks with our Indian friends yesterday and today were genuinely open and constructive.
48:30The declaration that we have adopted encompasses a wide area of cooperation in different spheres such as the politics, security, economy and trade, energy, education and other spheres.
48:55I am sure that this declaration along with the other documents will give us strong push to the development of our bilateral relations.
49:11It is as important to mention that Russia and India are working together to establish a more fair and just world order.
49:26We are convinced that it should be based on the central role of the United Nations.
49:36We are convinced that it should be based on the central role of the United Nations.
49:40And the balance of interests of all the members of the international community.
49:43We are convinced that we have to work together with India.
49:48Very significant what President Putin is saying.
49:50And there's one message that goes out very clearly.
49:53Both India and Russia have chosen strategic autonomy over being dictated to by either European countries or the United States of America.
50:06And we will continue to track developments on the story very, very closely.
50:11Two strong leaders together.
50:13What will this dosti lead to?
50:16We'll track that story very carefully and closely.
50:20Many thanks for watching.
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