00:00We're very pleased to have with us the Dutch Foreign Minister and former NATO Assistant Secretary General for Emerging Security Challenges, David Van Veel.
00:06Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Minister.
00:09So today is potentially a day where we could see movement finally, at least from the European Union side,
00:15on the Russian frozen assets with the European Commission announcing its plan at this very moment, as a matter of fact,
00:20on how they would propose to reassure Belgium that they would be covered in case Russia comes back.
00:26Does the Netherlands feel that the Commission's plan, if you've been able to take a look at it, is enough?
00:32Belgium already told us this morning it's not satisfactory. What's the Dutch view?
00:36Well, we haven't been able to study the plan in detail, but we will look at it with interest.
00:41We do believe that this is the only viable option. We agree there with the Commission.
00:45Now we'll have to look at the details. We have a few more weeks.
00:49The European Council, half December, will have to take a decision.
00:53Two and a half, anyway.
00:54On the other hand, that's not too far away, so we need to speed up the process.
00:59What do you mean it's your only plan?
01:00Because what the Belgians are saying is, you know, borrow money on the markets.
01:05The European Commission has the leverage to do this.
01:08They feel that there are better options than using this money.
01:11But is that a very Belgian-centric view in your...
01:14Well, we understand the Belgian concerns, and we need to appease them and give them peace of mind
01:20on how collectively we are going to help them in shouldering any burdens that might come forward.
01:27But we still believe that this is the most viable option, and that we need to work towards that.
01:31So, Bart de Weyver says that they have asked countries to sign up for a specific amount of money
01:36that they would be responsible for, should the Russians get to reclaim the money.
01:42Is the Netherlands willing to sign up to a specific sum?
01:44Well, we'll see in the next few weeks where we end up.
01:47We're willing to provide the Belgians with some assurance that they won't be left alone
01:53if something like that occurs.
01:54But in what form or shape, we'll have to see over the coming weeks.
01:57But I can understand why that doesn't sound so convincing.
01:59Some assurance that they won't be left alone doesn't sound like an ironclad guarantee like they feel they need.
02:04Well, I'm not going to give you the end state of where we will end up.
02:07I first have to study the proposal, then look at what that would entail
02:11and how we can assure the Belgians to come on board as well.
02:14So, other priorities here today, some of which you're very familiar with,
02:18hybrid threats, for example, that used to be one of your specialties here.
02:22Do you think there's any consensus that NATO as an alliance needs to take a more aggressive view,
02:27as was stated by the CMC?
02:28This is not something that really happens in practice now during peacetime.
02:32Is there any change on that?
02:33Well, the best defense against hybrid attacks is to have a proper defense.
02:38NATO is a defensive alliance,
02:40so we will not see any aggression coming out of NATO unprovoked or preemptively.
02:47But what we need to do is to ensure that we are guarded against this information,
02:52that we share information on drone sightings among nations,
02:56that we are able to do attribution,
02:58like in the case of the Polish railway sabotage.
03:01That will allow us for having stronger messaging,
03:04better defense,
03:05and therefore hopefully countering this hybrid threat.
03:07So, you said we will not see NATO take preemptive action,
03:11as the CMC was suggesting?
03:13Well, we will not take any preemptive military action
03:16that's not within the mandate of NATO.
03:19What we should do is defend ourselves and prepare ourselves
03:22and react when we are attacked.
03:24What about things like cyber actions?
03:26Are those military actions?
03:28Well, cyber is a very hybrid beast also within NATO,
03:32so there is a common cyber response,
03:34there's attribution, etc.
03:36And then there's sovereign nations
03:38that are able to take decisive actions in cyberspace.
03:42Most of that happens outside of the NATO mandate.
03:44So, final question.
03:46The Netherlands is among the countries
03:47that has spent a lot of money on Ukraine by GDP
03:51and signed up to Pearl,
03:53and there are a lot of countries
03:54which are not contributing anything yet.
03:56So, what are countries like you and the Nordics
04:00doing to convince the other allies
04:02that they also need to contribute to this program
04:04or some other way assistance to Ukraine?
04:06Well, first of all, we're showing the right example.
04:08So, also today we announced another 250 million euros
04:11coming out of the Netherlands
04:12into a Pearl package together with Norway and Germany.
04:15I think we are the countries
04:17among the highest contributors,
04:18NET, but also relatively to Ukraine.
04:21We're also trying to convince other nations
04:24they need to be part of this,
04:25and we've heard today during the meeting
04:27that the number of nations
04:28signing up to Pearl packages has risen.
04:31It was around 20, I believe,
04:32before we started the meeting,
04:34and I think we ended,
04:35but I just left before the end.
04:36It might become higher, around 24 or 25.
04:39So, some of those which were not contributing before.
04:41Absolutely.
04:42So, slowly I think we're getting
04:43to a more fairer burden sharing,
04:45but that needs to continue,
04:47not only now, but also in the next year,
04:49because Ukraine will continue to need our support.
04:50And the Secretary-General said
04:51it may more than double next year
04:53the need to be purchased through Pearl, right?
04:56Absolutely.
04:56And the Pearl packages
04:57are what actually helps Ukraine right now.
05:00I mean, it's the munition they need.
05:01It's the air defense they need.
05:02It's the munition for the F-16s that they need.
05:05So, it provides with real capabilities.
05:07Countries can trace it back.
05:09So, it's a transparent package.
05:11We know that it goes to good use,
05:13and it saves civilians' lives.
05:14All right.
05:15Thank you very much,
05:15Dutch Foreign Minister David Van Veyer.
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