DW asked David van Weel, the Dutch foreign minister and former NATO assistant secretary general, about the European Commission's plan to use frozen Russian assets as collateral for loans to support Ukraine's war effort.
00:00We're very pleased to have with us the Dutch Foreign Minister and former NATO Assistant Secretary General for Emerging Security Challenges, David Van Veel.
00:06Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Minister.
00:09So today is potentially a day where we could see movement finally, at least from the European Union side,
00:15on the Russian frozen assets with the European Commission announcing its plan at this very moment, as a matter of fact,
00:20on how they would propose to reassure Belgium that they would be covered in case Russia comes back.
00:26Does the Netherlands feel that the Commission's plan, if you've been able to take a look at it, is enough?
00:32Belgium already told us this morning it's not satisfactory. What's the Dutch view?
00:36Well, we haven't been able to study the plan in detail, but we will look at it with interest.
00:41We do believe that this is the only viable option. We agree there with the Commission.
00:45Now we'll have to look at the details. We have a few more weeks.
00:49The European Council, half December, will have to take a decision.
00:53Two and a half, anyway.
00:54On the other hand, that's not too far away, so we need to speed up the process.
00:59What do you mean it's your only plan?
01:00Because what the Belgians are saying is, you know, borrow money on the markets.
01:05The European Commission has the leverage to do this.
01:08They feel that there are better options than using this money.
01:11But is that a very Belgian-centric view in your...
01:14Well, we understand the Belgian concerns, and we need to appease them and give them peace of mind
01:20on how collectively we are going to help them in shouldering any burdens that might come forward.
01:27But we still believe that this is the most viable option, and that we need to work towards that.
01:31So, Bart de Weyver says that they have asked countries to sign up for a specific amount of money
01:36that they would be responsible for, should the Russians get to reclaim the money.
01:42Is the Netherlands willing to sign up to a specific sum?
01:44Well, we'll see in the next few weeks where we end up.
01:47We're willing to provide the Belgians with some assurance that they won't be left alone
01:53if something like that occurs.
01:54But in what form or shape, we'll have to see over the coming weeks.
01:57But I can understand why that doesn't sound so convincing.
01:59Some assurance that they won't be left alone doesn't sound like an ironclad guarantee like they feel they need.
02:04Well, I'm not going to give you the end state of where we will end up.
02:07I first have to study the proposal, then look at what that would entail
02:11and how we can assure the Belgians to come on board as well.
02:14So, other priorities here today, some of which you're very familiar with,
02:18hybrid threats, for example, that used to be one of your specialties here.
02:22Do you think there's any consensus that NATO as an alliance needs to take a more aggressive view,
02:27as was stated by the CMC?
02:28This is not something that really happens in practice now during peacetime.
02:32Is there any change on that?
02:33Well, the best defense against hybrid attacks is to have a proper defense.
02:38NATO is a defensive alliance,
02:40so we will not see any aggression coming out of NATO unprovoked or preemptively.
02:47But what we need to do is to ensure that we are guarded against this information,
02:52that we share information on drone sightings among nations,
02:56that we are able to do attribution,
02:58like in the case of the Polish railway sabotage.
03:01That will allow us for having stronger messaging,
03:04better defense,
03:05and therefore hopefully countering this hybrid threat.
03:07So, you said we will not see NATO take preemptive action,
03:11as the CMC was suggesting?
03:13Well, we will not take any preemptive military action
03:16that's not within the mandate of NATO.
03:19What we should do is defend ourselves and prepare ourselves
03:22and react when we are attacked.
03:24What about things like cyber actions?
03:26Are those military actions?
03:28Well, cyber is a very hybrid beast also within NATO,
03:32so there is a common cyber response,
03:34there's attribution, etc.
03:36And then there's sovereign nations
03:38that are able to take decisive actions in cyberspace.
03:42Most of that happens outside of the NATO mandate.
03:44So, final question.
03:46The Netherlands is among the countries
03:47that has spent a lot of money on Ukraine by GDP
03:51and signed up to Pearl,
03:53and there are a lot of countries
03:54which are not contributing anything yet.
03:56So, what are countries like you and the Nordics
04:00doing to convince the other allies
04:02that they also need to contribute to this program
04:04or some other way assistance to Ukraine?
04:06Well, first of all, we're showing the right example.
04:08So, also today we announced another 250 million euros
04:11coming out of the Netherlands
04:12into a Pearl package together with Norway and Germany.
04:15I think we are the countries
04:17among the highest contributors,
04:18NET, but also relatively to Ukraine.
04:21We're also trying to convince other nations
04:24they need to be part of this,
04:25and we've heard today during the meeting
04:27that the number of nations
04:28signing up to Pearl packages has risen.
04:31It was around 20, I believe,
04:32before we started the meeting,
04:34and I think we ended,
04:35but I just left before the end.
04:36It might become higher, around 24 or 25.
04:39So, some of those which were not contributing before.
04:41Absolutely.
04:42So, slowly I think we're getting
04:43to a more fairer burden sharing,
04:45but that needs to continue,
04:47not only now, but also in the next year,
04:49because Ukraine will continue to need our support.
04:50And the Secretary-General said
04:51it may more than double next year
04:53the need to be purchased through Pearl, right?
04:56Absolutely.
04:56And the Pearl packages
04:57are what actually helps Ukraine right now.
05:00I mean, it's the munition they need.
05:01It's the air defense they need.
05:02It's the munition for the F-16s that they need.
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