I am back in the game: Capt Amarinder Singh on Punjab politics, 2027 strategies and more

10 hours ago

In UnPolitics with Preeti Podcast with Preeti Chaudhary, former Punjab Chief Minister Captain Amarinder Singh confirms his return to active politics, declaring he is "back in the game" for the 2027 elections. The BJP leader firmly rules out any possibility of rejoining the Congress, reflecting on his departure and his relationship with the Gandhi family. The veteran politician shares never-before-heard anecdotes, including a meeting with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and a humorous exchange with the late Arun Jaitley, while advising the BJP to form an alliance with the Akali Dal for future electoral success.

Transcript

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00:00:44Is Captain Amrinder Singh back in the saddle?

00:00:46It was either you would be sacked or you resign.

00:00:48For instance, if had Ahmed Patel been alive, this would never have happened.

00:00:52Where did Patelopeg come from?

00:00:54Most don't see you so much as a congressman but somebody, a man who stood by his table.

00:00:58One has to speak your mind.

00:01:00Some of them had said that okay, now Captain Amrinder Singh is truly retired.

00:01:03I am back in the game now.

00:01:05A tad modest with the lineage of being the Maharaja of Patiala.

00:01:10If you want to form a government, then you have to do it with Ikaali.

00:01:13There is no other way of the BJP forming any sort of, being part of any sort of government in Punjab.

00:01:20Would Captain Amrinder Singh still be in the running for a chief ministerial phase in 2027?

00:01:26I stand with my party. I stand to fight for them.

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00:01:34Captain Saab, welcome and it's a privilege to have you on our show, UnPolitics.

00:01:39Thank you very much, Preeti. Thank you.

00:01:41But Captain Saab, you know, it is the nature of our show, you know, I have very rich introductions for you.

00:01:46But the nature of our show is where our guest introduces himself to our listeners and our audience.

00:01:52What would Captain Amrinder Singh, in what way would introduce himself to our viewers?

00:01:58I would say somebody who has some very limited interests but concentrated interests.

00:02:08I love gardening. I love writing and I love reading.

00:02:12But my reading and writing is a bit boring for people.

00:02:15For me it's military history and that has been my life all through because I was always in the army

00:02:21and that was my one interest from childhood to be part of that army.

00:02:25And then, of course, politics. But politics, I have been off of it for the last couple of years

00:02:32because I was indisposed. But I'm back in the game now.

00:02:38A tad modest with the lineage of being the Maharaja of Patiala.

00:02:44Well, you know, I never thought that way because I went to boarding school at the age of four.

00:02:49And I left the army when I was 29, 30.

00:02:54So I had never lived a life of that sort, living in palaces or living elsewhere.

00:03:00Of course, we came on during holidays back home.

00:03:03But then, you know, life had started changing.

00:03:06By the time I came back from school, I was in boarding school, independence had come.

00:03:14So then things started changing.

00:03:16So, you know, gradually I never really felt that way.

00:03:19And I never, nobody even made me feel that way.

00:03:22My parents were very strict on that sort of subject.

00:03:25If you have to pick one of being, you said you've never really felt that way,

00:03:29which is where your royal lineage comes into question.

00:03:32A politician and an army man, what would you pick?

00:03:36For me?

00:03:37Yeah.

00:03:38Any day in the army.

00:03:39Any day in the army.

00:03:40Any day in the army.

00:03:41And if I had to start again, I'd love to start again that way.

00:03:43If you had to do it all over again, you'd never leave the forces?

00:03:47I wouldn't leave the forces.

00:03:48I don't think I'd leave the forces.

00:03:49I haven't seen the life that this is.

00:03:52I say this too often to people, that, you know, the army teaches you something,

00:03:58which is very different to what you are in public life.

00:04:01For instance, in the army, you never tell a lie.

00:04:05And as a politician, you never tell the truth.

00:04:08It's as simple as that.

00:04:10How did you balance the both there?

00:04:13Well, you know, I think when you've been through such a…

00:04:18Economical truths.

00:04:20Well, no.

00:04:21It's such a life.

00:04:23And then you've been that way.

00:04:24And you've always…

00:04:25So I've lived that way.

00:04:26Therefore, I don't have double-faced ideas.

00:04:29What I feel, I say.

00:04:31And I think a lot of people like that.

00:04:34You know, in that way, you are correct, because you've lived your life like that as a politician,

00:04:40where Punjab is concerned.

00:04:41And I'll come back to that, Captain Zab.

00:04:43But how are you feeling?

00:04:44You've been a bit of a sabbatical on health grounds.

00:04:47Is Captain Amrinder Singh back in the saddle as a politician?

00:04:51No, I'll tell you what happened.

00:04:52It's not that I didn't have this before I quit as chief minister.

00:04:57A couple of years before, I was having this back problem, which started off during my army days.

00:05:04And I got caught in a sort of a snow slide, you can call it, or a small avalanche or something,

00:05:11and injured my back.

00:05:13And that, after so many years, started playing up.

00:05:16And then I found myself finding it difficult to climb the steps.

00:05:22Or when I was standing and speaking, I'd start getting pain, and I had to cut short my speech.

00:05:27So then I thought, this is no good.

00:05:29So I went in for an operation.

00:05:32It's been settled.

00:05:33And I've done a test run.

00:05:35I've been to a couple of places in the last few, in a month or so.

00:05:40And I could do exactly what I was doing earlier.

00:05:44So I'm back in the fray.

00:05:46So you're back in the fray.

00:05:47And those who had possibly written your retirement should take that back?

00:05:53Because some of them had said that, okay, now Captain Amrinder Singh is truly retired.

00:05:57But who says that?

00:05:58I don't.

00:05:59You don't.

00:06:00So you're back?

00:06:01No, you know, it's a question of, I think you are as old as you feel.

00:06:06And I don't feel that I should, you know, hang up my sword and my boots and just say that this is the end of it.

00:06:14No.

00:06:15I think, you know, I feel also indebted to Punjab.

00:06:18Punjab has given me a lot.

00:06:20They have always given me, this is my, how many, twice to parliament, six times to the assembly, once as a minister, twice as a chief minister.

00:06:30What more can anyone ask for?

00:06:32And I think now that I owe it to Punjab to give whatever I can back to them.

00:06:38And I, that's why I want to go around and see what I can do to help whatever Punjab is going through at the moment.

00:06:46Captain Sahab, you know, this was possibly my last question, but the way this conversation has started, let me, you know, pick that up and ask you right up, you know, front.

00:06:55So you're saying where 2027 elections in Punjab are concerned, you're going to be a prominent player there.

00:07:00Are you putting your hat in there?

00:07:01No, I, whether I stand or not is a different issue.

00:07:03Right.

00:07:04That is something else.

00:07:05But I think, yes, I will support, definitely support my party.

00:07:08There's no question of it not being that I won't do so.

00:07:11But apart from that, I will also, before that, before the elections start, start moving around and meeting my old colleagues and friends and all from the villages who have supported me.

00:07:22People have stood by me at the most difficult of times.

00:07:25And it's my time to stand with them.

00:07:28But age notwithstanding, would Captain Amrinder Singh still be in the running for a chief ministerial phase in 2027?

00:07:36Can't say that.

00:07:37That is, of course, the party to decide.

00:07:38That's too far off.

00:07:39That's too far off in any case.

00:07:41But it's up to the party to decide.

00:07:42It's not for me to decide.

00:07:44Physically, I'm fine.

00:07:45But then, of course, it depends on whatever the leadership thinks at Delhi.

00:07:52But that doesn't mean that I will not, I will say that you first announce me, then I will do something.

00:07:59That's not the point.

00:08:00I will go around.

00:08:01I will meet every, a lot of friends.

00:08:03You know, not only, I'm not talking about friends and colleagues who have been part of my political setup, say within the government or whatever.

00:08:12But there are a lot of people who are simple folk, who have problems.

00:08:16And I think this, if I can use my whatever little clout I have left to help them, that I'd like to do that.

00:08:23Talking about the party or associated with Captain Saab today is a party which possibly, history stands testimony, has never been able to understand Punjab.

00:08:32And Punjabis and Sikhs haven't been able to understand that political party, which is the Bharatiya Janata Party.

00:08:38So when you broke away from the Congress, you started your own political party and then you joined the BJP.

00:08:43A lot of Punjabis looked at Captain Amrinder saying, we didn't think that you'd be doing that.

00:08:51No.

00:08:52Why I left, it was a very simple thing.

00:08:55There were rumblings here in the party.

00:09:00Within the Congress.

00:09:03Within the Congress, within our, within the party.

00:09:06Though I tried to do everything I could for people and my colleagues particularly.

00:09:11But everyone's sort of demands start rising when you get into government.

00:09:17And the thing which I opposed, vehemently opposed, was this sand mining business.

00:09:24And a lot of our people were involved in it.

00:09:26And I told them, no, don't do this, otherwise I'll have to take action.

00:09:30And when they didn't listen to me, then we had to set up a committee to go and to find out who was doing it.

00:09:37I had put the police on the job also.

00:09:39I put various people to locate it.

00:09:42And people got nervous.

00:09:44And there was a time that I heard these rumblings.

00:09:49So I went and saw the Congress President.

00:09:51And I told her, I said, ma'am, there's rumblings.

00:09:54Before we spoke, I gave her my resignation.

00:09:58And I said, ma'am.

00:10:00This was prior to when you resigned.

00:10:02Prior to my resignation.

00:10:04Your official resignation.

00:10:05Absolutely.

00:10:06Before my resignation.

00:10:07I had asked for time.

00:10:08She gave it to me.

00:10:09So I went there to Delhi.

00:10:10And I said, before we speak.

00:10:12She said, yes, ma'am.

00:10:13I said, before we speak, ma'am.

00:10:15Here's my resignation.

00:10:16She said, what are we giving this?

00:10:18Why?

00:10:19I said, because I'm hearing rumblings.

00:10:21And I've got feelings that somebody, you all want to change in Punjab.

00:10:25If you want it, take my resignation.

00:10:26Put anyone you feel like.

00:10:28May I interrupt, Captain Saab.

00:10:30How much before in the September of 2021, where you officially stepped down as Chief Minister?

00:10:35This was probably a month, about a couple of weeks before.

00:10:37A couple of weeks before that.

00:10:39Okay.

00:10:40And she said, no.

00:10:41And Rawat happened to be there, who was our General Secretary.

00:10:43So she called Rawat.

00:10:45She said, Rawat, what is this I'm hearing?

00:10:46He said, I didn't hear it.

00:10:47I didn't hear it.

00:10:48I didn't hear it.

00:10:49I didn't hear it.

00:10:50I didn't hear it.

00:10:51I didn't hear it.

00:10:52You all know what happened in Punjab.

00:10:53So he said, no, no, I will go and have a look.

00:10:56She said, Rawat, you go and have a look.

00:10:59And in the meantime, in this room, I was sitting, when a group of about six, seven ministers came

00:11:06here.

00:11:07And they wanted, we discussed the things.

00:11:10And I told them, I said, I did whatever I could for them.

00:11:13And when they went out, my principal secretary came out of the car and he met them.

00:11:22Now, they had been going to him every day and spending an hour or so with them, discussed

00:11:27the various problems of their ministries and the organizational matters.

00:11:32And started, you know, every day have coffee, tea with him or something and another social

00:11:38level.

00:11:39So he made some sort of a remark that you, you come and get your works done, but you also

00:11:47must do something for Punjab.

00:11:49And so they, they lost their shirt with him.

00:11:54And they came in here and said, you sack him.

00:11:57I said, I'm not going to sack him.

00:11:58What for?

00:11:59I said, every day you're sitting with him.

00:12:01Every day you're talking to him.

00:12:02Every day you're doing these things.

00:12:03Now what has happened?

00:12:04This is, he said something to this, in this jockey of fashion to them.

00:12:09So I said, no, I'm not.

00:12:11He says, either they go or we go.

00:12:14So I said, then you go.

00:12:15I said, I'm not going to sack my principal secretary.

00:12:18They were your cabinet ministers.

00:12:19They were my cabinet ministers.

00:12:21All of them, yes, I think they were all cabinet.

00:12:25And?

00:12:26And nothing.

00:12:27So then, then, anyway, then a week passed and I was sitting in the morning and reading

00:12:33Monday newspaper.

00:12:34And suddenly I get a call and it's Mrs. Gandhi.

00:12:38She said, Brinda, I think you should resign.

00:12:40I said, fine ma'am.

00:12:41I said, that's fine.

00:12:43I said, I'll take time with the governor today and resign.

00:12:46And that's what I did.

00:12:48And that was it.

00:12:51Now, I've been in the Congress, I've been in government and politics for now over 60

00:12:56years.

00:12:57The most of it was with the Congress.

00:12:59I left the Congress on two occasions only.

00:13:02One was when it was the Blue Star.

00:13:04And that's it really, on the Blue Star I left.

00:13:07Otherwise it was always with the Congress.

00:13:10Now, what was happening is that I felt a bit odd because that, I got a call from one of my

00:13:18colleagues early morning, before she called in fact.

00:13:21Okay, why have you called a CLP meeting?

00:13:23Now, a CLP meeting can only be called by the CLP leader, which was me.

00:13:28And I had called no meeting.

00:13:31And I said, who's told you this?

00:13:32He said, all night, telephone calls have been coming from Delhi to every MLA to be there

00:13:37at the Congress office at four o'clock.

00:13:39So what is it all about?

00:13:41So I said, I don't know what it's all about.

00:13:42Then a few minutes later, the call came.

00:13:45So I said, sure ma'am, I'll quit.

00:13:47So my, you want to change, I had offered my resignation.

00:13:51You're welcome to change anyone, put anyone you like.

00:13:54What bugged me only one thing.

00:13:56And that was that having been 60 years in the Congress, my resignation could have been accepted.

00:14:02But why all the MLA's being called for a meeting to publicly sack me?

00:14:09That was going to happen.

00:14:11And that I said, I'm not going to take.

00:14:13So I said, before that meeting takes place, I'll quit.

00:14:16And I asked the governor, I said, give me time in the morning.

00:14:18So I went and gave it to him.

00:14:20So Captain Saab, what you're saying is that, you know, before September of 2021,

00:14:26couple of weeks before that, you offered to put in your resignation

00:14:29for whatever reasons that they were at that point of time.

00:14:32At that point of time, Sonia Gandhi did not accept your resignation.

00:14:35No, she didn't.

00:14:36And then a couple of weeks later.

00:14:37In fact, I must tell you something.

00:14:39When I went, when you were coming to that, after she said, I think you should resign.

00:14:43She says, I'm very sorry.

00:14:44I said, that's all right, ma'am.

00:14:46It's not, it's okay.

00:14:48And then you were asked to step down because of what you just detailed.

00:14:51Yes.

00:14:52How much does it also have to do, Captain Amrinder Singh,

00:14:55that you went, sir, to the national capital, trying to seek an audience with Rahul Gandhi.

00:15:01And at the same time, you had a Priyanka Gandhi meeting of Jodh Singh Sindhu.

00:15:04Because I remember I was reporting at that point of time.

00:15:06No, no, I don't.

00:15:07I didn't.

00:15:08In fact, I did never discuss this with either of them.

00:15:12In fact, if you ask me, I've known Priyanka and Rahul Gandhi children.

00:15:19Because Rajiv, we were schoolmates.

00:15:22Yes.

00:15:23And I knew them and we were friends and all that.

00:15:25But, you know, there are two things.

00:15:27One are personal relationships and one are official.

00:15:31Say in the army, if I was very friendly with my colonel.

00:15:35But as a colonel, I was disappointed in it and I had to follow every instruction he gave.

00:15:40So, the same was here.

00:15:41I would never, never say that or question them.

00:15:46I haven't till today questioned them as to why did you take this decision.

00:15:50I've never done it.

00:15:51It's never been part of my life.

00:15:53Right from childhood, I've never done such things.

00:15:55So, Captain Saab, you never tried to seek an audience with Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi?

00:15:59No, never.

00:16:00At the same time when she was meeting Navjot Singh Sidhu and a meeting was organized between…

00:16:04Only time that Rahul once had a difference of opinion with me was on one question of one minister.

00:16:12I won't take his name, but he was in some sort of a controversy.

00:16:18And he told me, he said, you sack him.

00:16:21So, I said, why should I sack him?

00:16:23He said, well, this is coming in the papers.

00:16:25So, anyway, that conversation finished.

00:16:27A month later…

00:16:28That was around the same time?

00:16:30No, this was much earlier.

00:16:31Much earlier.

00:16:32So, this is…

00:16:33Then he said, after a month I met him, he said, have you sacked him?

00:16:37I said, no.

00:16:38Why haven't you sacked him?

00:16:39I said, because it's not…

00:16:41These are just controversies which are thrown up and they've come up in black and white

00:16:46in the newspapers and everyone seems to believe it, but there's nothing true.

00:16:49There's no truth in it.

00:16:51And I told that minister all.

00:16:53So, I said, this is what they're saying.

00:16:54I'm going to take this on this issue with you.

00:16:57I don't agree with this.

00:16:59So, again a week or ten days later I met him.

00:17:02And he said, have you sacked him?

00:17:04I said, no, I haven't sacked him.

00:17:06He said, then I'll tweet his sacking.

00:17:08I said, don't do that.

00:17:09I said, this is your party.

00:17:10If you're going to tweet your… sack your ministers by tweets…

00:17:14That was a ham handed way of going about it.

00:17:16So, I said, I'm sorry.

00:17:17I don't agree with this.

00:17:18But I will ask him.

00:17:19Then I called him.

00:17:20And I said, I'm very sorry.

00:17:22I told you that I will.

00:17:23I have done my best.

00:17:24But this is what he says and we can't have a tweet to sack a minister.

00:17:28So, I think you should resign.

00:17:30So, he said, certainly.

00:17:31Within five minutes he gave me his resignation.

00:17:34Captain Sahab, you know, correct me if I'm wrong.

00:17:38What is rumored is that it goes back, you know, with you not getting along with Rahul Gandhi all the way back to 2015.

00:17:45At the time when Pratap Singh Bajwa was made the PCC president and you took over, which was…

00:17:52And you had Rahul Gandhi who supported Mr. Bajwa.

00:17:55And that's where it all started.

00:17:56No, not really.

00:17:57I don't think I've ever had any indifference of opinion with either of the children.

00:18:02Whether it was Rahul or Priyanka, no.

00:18:05In fact, I don't think I've even met Priyanka.

00:18:09I met Priyanka probably once.

00:18:11And that was also, I'll tell you how.

00:18:14Once, twice.

00:18:15Once when I went to…

00:18:17She came to campaign in Gurdaspur during the election.

00:18:19And we were in the same bus or truck or something going around.

00:18:23So, I met her there.

00:18:25And once earlier, when I was launching my book and I had come to ask Mrs. Gandhi to attend the book launch.

00:18:31And she walked in.

00:18:32So, I said, Priyanka, if you're free on Friday or Saturday, whatever it was, I'm going to launch this book.

00:18:38She said, okay, I'll try and come.

00:18:39There's two times in my life I have met Priyanka then.

00:18:43Rahul, yes, I've met many times.

00:18:46But we never had any difference of opinion like this, no.

00:18:49In which he would say that I'm supporting so and so.

00:18:52I'm supporting not at all.

00:18:53If they changed, if they made Bajwa, they could have left Bajwa.

00:18:56I had no objection to that.

00:18:57I didn't take an issue to say that you please remove Bajwa and make me.

00:19:01I never said that.

00:19:02Why would then Priyanka Gandhi, Captain Sahab say that the Punjab government was working from the centre?

00:19:09Where practically the BJP was running a Congress government in Punjab.

00:19:13Absolutely incorrect.

00:19:14Look, when we are in government, we have to go to the union government for various issues.

00:19:22For instance, I went to the finance commission to ask for additional funds and I got them.

00:19:29Who did I go to?

00:19:30That is a part of the finance ministry and the government of India.

00:19:33Whenever I had any problem with the home department, we got drones coming in by the dozens.

00:19:39And I came to say, you better do something.

00:19:41He is carrying an AK-47 magazine, heroin, cash, whatever they were doing.

00:19:48I said, you know, you are ruining my estate.

00:19:50We are doing something.

00:19:51When there is something with the prime minister, you go to the prime minister.

00:19:54I went to the defence minister for issues.

00:19:57I am talking about the congress days and I do it again now.

00:20:00As a chief minister, what am I supposed to do?

00:20:02I am supposed to go and talk to the government who helps you and assists you.

00:20:07And I must tell you that I had no problem, neither with the congress government,

00:20:11and my colleagues there in the ministry, and neither with this government.

00:20:15Whenever I wanted something, I used to go.

00:20:18And my demands were very limited.

00:20:21It was for Punjab and it was things like what I have said,

00:20:27if ever we were short of funds or we needed something to be done on any issue,

00:20:32I used to go to them.

00:20:34And my principal thing was both with him and the National Security Advisor

00:20:39and was on this issue of drones.

00:20:43You know, there was a time when people used to come under the wire.

00:20:48Next time they used to just swim across the river.

00:20:52Then they started having a drone which just hopped from one bank to the other bank.

00:20:57And then they started going seven kilometres out.

00:21:00In fact, there was one incident of one of my MLA's, not mine, but Punjab MLA's, not my party,

00:21:08where I got a call at three o'clock in the morning from my DGP that a drone has landed.

00:21:13And in front of this MLA's house, in the main gate, they buried a bomb.

00:21:18And pistols have been put somewhere else.

00:21:22And we were getting the bomb disposal people in the morning, sir.

00:21:27So I rang that boy up, a nice boy.

00:21:30His father was also at one time our speaker.

00:21:33And I said, look, you have not to go out of that gate.

00:21:35And I said, three in the morning, I said, you go use some other entrances

00:21:38and tell your whole staff and lock that gate and don't till the army comes and clears it.

00:21:42So we were doing, these were the things which are happening.

00:21:45And when I left from seven kilometres, it had gone to 47 kilometres.

00:21:50We found two or three drones at 47 kilometres.

00:21:53And now they must be reaching Delhi.

00:21:55Because now you know what the drones are.

00:21:57You've seen Sandhur, the way they were operating.

00:21:59Captain, we'll talk about because Punjab is a sensitive border state in the current context of it.

00:22:03We'll talk about that.

00:22:04But I just want to go back to the conversation.

00:22:06So what made, you know, maybe not Sonia Gandhi, but what made Priyanka Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi believe that

00:22:12your government was being run by the centre and therefore a change needed to be effected?

00:22:16Well, I'm very sorry to think that they think this because that's never the case.

00:22:21And never did they ask me anything.

00:22:23Never did they discuss it.

00:22:24Neither did the Congress President nor did any of them, either of them.

00:22:29And they could have asked me that have you done this or have you done that.

00:22:33I would have told them what I've done.

00:22:34It was my job.

00:22:35It was not only me.

00:22:36I mean, whenever there was any other place, the finance minister, Manpreet Badal, he had a problem.

00:22:42He must have met the finance minister in his, when he was finance minister here, 30 times or 40 times.

00:22:50I don't know.

00:22:51Never used to ask me, we are going.

00:22:53I said, go.

00:22:54You have to go.

00:22:55You have to work for the state.

00:22:56Do you think it was the perfect storm against you at that point of time?

00:22:59You had the Aam Admi Party after 2017 coming up with a massive push.

00:23:04You had the likes of Arvind Kejri while Bhagawan Mahan attacking you on the, you know, not being able to manage the drug issue.

00:23:10I think they may have thought.

00:23:11And Siddhu.

00:23:12And you had an Avjodh Singh Siddhu who constantly attacked his own party person in every press conference.

00:23:17He did it to me.

00:23:18That's what I'm saying.

00:23:19And I had to tell him eventually that if you, this is the way you're going to attack me, then I think you better, how it happened was this way.

00:23:29He had two portfolios.

00:23:31One portfolio was, I think, culture and tourism.

00:23:34And one was something that's rooted, some development portfolio.

00:23:39And he would every day in the newspapers give it out that the Punjab power situation is bad.

00:23:44And you have to do something.

00:23:46You have to, this government is not doing anything.

00:23:48I said, look here, you are part of the government.

00:23:50He's constantly attacking.

00:23:51You remember?

00:23:52How can you do this?

00:23:53So he said, no sir, but it's this.

00:23:55I said, alright.

00:23:56If you are so concerned about the power situation, as I am, and I want somebody who can handle it,

00:24:01I'll take those two portfolios away from you and I'll give you power.

00:24:05You take power.

00:24:06Power is with me.

00:24:07So I gave it to him.

00:24:08I said, take this.

00:24:10He never said anything, but he went and resigned.

00:24:13And so I said, fine, you want to go?

00:24:16Go.

00:24:17But that is how that particular incident took place.

00:24:20Did you see a larger...

00:24:22But what the feeling probably was then, that the elections around the corner,

00:24:27when Mrs. Gandhi was telling me you have to take the party into the elections,

00:24:31maybe a feeling was we built up to say there were many people there sitting in Delhi.

00:24:35For instance, if had Ahmed Patel been alive, this would never have happened.

00:24:39You don't think it would have happened?

00:24:40No.

00:24:41It wouldn't have happened.

00:24:42Why do you say that?

00:24:43Because I knew the term before the same thing happened to me in the first term.

00:24:48Really?

00:24:49Yes, absolutely.

00:24:50And they all went to Delhi.

00:24:51They wanted you to step down in the first?

00:24:52I took the whole lot of Delhi to get me sacked.

00:24:54And Mrs. Gandhi told...

00:24:55This was 2002, 2007.

00:24:562002, 2007.

00:24:57Yeah.

00:24:58And Mrs. Gandhi told Ahmed Patel, you sought it out.

00:25:01And Ahmed Patel sorted it out and they all came back with their tails between their legs.

00:25:05And this is what they...

00:25:07But this chap doesn't know...

00:25:09Couldn't understand it.

00:25:10Which chap?

00:25:11Whatever his name is.

00:25:12He's who replaced Ahmed.

00:25:15K.C. Venu Gopal?

00:25:17Venu Gopal.

00:25:18He was with me in parliament.

00:25:20I was...

00:25:21Karge was the leader.

00:25:22I was the deputy leader.

00:25:23And he used to sit next to me.

00:25:25But he...

00:25:26I don't think he understood.

00:25:27They didn't understand Punjab.

00:25:29And these chap, he'd come new in it.

00:25:31Ahmed had been there for donkey's years.

00:25:33He knew everything.

00:25:34So if Ahmed Patel was there...

00:25:35I don't think this would have happened.

00:25:36It wouldn't have happened.

00:25:37It wouldn't have happened.

00:25:38It wouldn't have happened.

00:25:39No, because Mrs. Gandhi didn't want it.

00:25:40She's the one who told me, you know, what he brought your resignation for.

00:25:44Then somebody had to do it on her behalf.

00:25:47And she was apologetic, I must tell you.

00:25:49As I said to you, after she said, I think you should resign.

00:25:52She said, I'm very sorry, Amrita.

00:25:54I said, ma'am, that's perfectly alright.

00:25:56But you do go back a long way with Mrs. Gandhi, Captain Saab.

00:26:01Because 2014, you didn't want to fight against Arun Jeetli.

00:26:05It was because she picked up that phone and said, do me a personal favor.

00:26:08Absolutely correct.

00:26:09No, no, it was not like that.

00:26:11No?

00:26:12It happened differently.

00:26:13She asked me to come and see her that you go to Amritsa.

00:26:15I said, do I know about Amritsa, ma'am?

00:26:17I can't fight Amritsa.

00:26:18You don't know Amritsa?

00:26:19I said, no, I don't.

00:26:21You've never been to the Golden Temple?

00:26:23I said, Golden Temple is not Amritsa.

00:26:25How can I go and fight that?

00:26:27So she says, okay, nothing.

00:26:29I was driving down to Patiala and near Panipat somewhere.

00:26:34This is many days after.

00:26:37Something had come controversial in the newspapers.

00:26:40And so she rang and she said, Sonia here, Amrita.

00:26:48I said, yes, ma'am, one moment.

00:26:50I'll just get the driver to stop.

00:26:51So I got him to stop.

00:26:53I said, tell me what.

00:26:54She said, I need your help.

00:26:56I said, of course, ma'am, tell me what can I do.

00:26:59She says, I'm going to ask you something.

00:27:03You must help me.

00:27:06I said, what are you telling me?

00:27:08Anything you want from me.

00:27:10I'll turn the car around and come back if you want.

00:27:12So she said, no, you go to Amritsa.

00:27:15So I said, ma'am, she said, now you said yes, you go.

00:27:20So that was how I got caught up in Amritsa.

00:27:23And you went and you won against Arun Jaitliji.

00:27:25Well, it was.

00:27:26I have friends, let me tell you.

00:27:28Even then.

00:27:29And when we, sometimes in the morning, he had a habit of waking up at five in the morning.

00:27:33Oh, Lord.

00:27:34And going for a stroke.

00:27:35A stroll.

00:27:36And then ending up at a chai ki hatti to drink tea there.

00:27:41The both of you.

00:27:42No, he.

00:27:43He used to do it.

00:27:44Then my chap said, he's getting up at five o'clock.

00:27:46I said, why are you making me get up at five o'clock in the morning?

00:27:50So they said, no, no, you better get up also.

00:27:53So one day I went and we met on top.

00:27:55You told him, why are you getting up at five?

00:27:57So we both had tea together and then he went his way and I went my way.

00:28:02Then I heard just, just before the counting, I heard that he said, he'd ordered 10,000

00:28:09boxes of laddus.

00:28:11So I sent him a message.

00:28:13I said, I think things are not the way you ordered laddus.

00:28:16Can I borrow them from you?

00:28:17What did he say?

00:28:18He had a sense of humor.

00:28:19No, no.

00:28:20He had a sense of humor.

00:28:21No, no.

00:28:22He had a sense of humor.

00:28:23And you know what happened after that?

00:28:24Right.

00:28:25He went to Raj Sabha.

00:28:26I went to Dok Sabha.

00:28:27And I met him when we were going.

00:28:29He was coming out of the toilet.

00:28:30I was going into the toilet.

00:28:31So we met at the entrance.

00:28:33So I asked him, how are you?

00:28:36How are you?

00:28:37And then we just took a moment.

00:28:38He said, you know, we should meet.

00:28:40So I said, let's meet.

00:28:41Now I didn't know then, which I came to know later, that he was a military history buff.

00:28:47And so we decided to meet on Saturday.

00:28:50This was Friday.

00:28:51We said, we should have coffee in the morning.

00:28:53So we went to his house.

00:28:54And then I used to go once a week.

00:28:56We used to go and we used to talk about military history, nothing else.

00:28:59I was Congress then.

00:29:00But he was BJP.

00:29:01But that was it.

00:29:03I find there's something wrong with our system.

00:29:06Nook.

00:29:07I don't know if you've seen a picture called First Among Equals.

00:29:11Okay.

00:29:12Whatever your personal relationships are, personal relationships and political are political.

00:29:16In India, it's something very different.

00:29:19When I came into parliament, the other side, this was just ten minutes before the house

00:29:26met.

00:29:27I was in the well.

00:29:28And I saw General VK coming.

00:29:31And VK came and we hugged each other.

00:29:33And I knew VK since he was a Brigadier.

00:29:35And so I said, so nice to see you.

00:29:40And then he came, you know, to 2 Corps.

00:29:42And then he was near Chief of Staff, 15 Corps in Kashmir.

00:29:47And then 2 Corps here.

00:29:48Then he came to come to Patiala often because Patiala was under 2 Corps.

00:29:52So we were very friendly.

00:29:54And after it was all over, not leadership, but some of my colleagues said, why were you

00:29:59giving a hug?

00:30:01I said, I've known him since he was a Brigadier.

00:30:03Why shouldn't I give him a hug?

00:30:05So that sort of thing is missing in our country.

00:30:10When I was in my first term, once a week, seven of us were ex-services.

00:30:18There was myself, General Sparrow, Rajesh pilot.

00:30:23There was Jyothi Marai Basu.

00:30:27He was engineers from CPM.

00:30:30Then there was K.P. Singh Deo and two more.

00:30:35I can't just remember, two more, seven.

00:30:38Every once a week we used to meet at somebody's house for a coffee or tea

00:30:42to discuss what can we jointly do to help the services.

00:30:45That was the way we used to function.

00:30:48Those days are long gone.

00:30:49Now nobody bothers about this.

00:30:51Nobody cares.

00:30:52You are right.

00:30:53I think that has shifted.

00:30:55I'll come back to the question, Captain Sahab.

00:30:57So for someone, you know, like you had the kind of relationship that you had with Sonia Gandhi.

00:31:03You went and fought an election.

00:31:04No, I still have.

00:31:05I have the utmost respect for Mr. Gandhi.

00:31:09She's a wonderful lady.

00:31:10Her husband Rajiv was a very dear friend.

00:31:14But do you regret she should have at least got your back at the time when you needed her?

00:31:17And the children.

00:31:18I have no animosity towards the children.

00:31:20I'm very fond of them.

00:31:22I've known them since they were that high.

00:31:24How would you expect me to say that I don't like them?

00:31:26No, no.

00:31:27One side is personal and one side is politics.

00:31:30Politics, if you ask me, I will go hammer and tongs for the BGP.

00:31:35But as far as personal life is concerned, I will always be there available to them if they ever need me.

00:31:40But personal life.

00:31:42But is it a regret that maybe she should have stood by you at that time?

00:31:47She did apologize.

00:31:48She's done enough.

00:31:49She couldn't have done enough.

00:31:50Actually, she couldn't have done more than she did for me.

00:31:53Look, I was six times her MLA.

00:31:56I was twice her MP.

00:31:58I was once a minister, twice a chief minister.

00:32:01What more can you do?

00:32:02She can't do more than that.

00:32:04That's quite lovely to say what you did.

00:32:06Because at that point of time, in the manner in which you describe that you were let go of, it was either you would be sacked or you resign.

00:32:15That's with a lot of dignity.

00:32:17But she didn't do it.

00:32:18I knew it.

00:32:19I knew.

00:32:20I knew.

00:32:21Who did it, sir, then?

00:32:22No.

00:32:23Who were the ones who were anti of me?

00:32:25There was a group.

00:32:26I told you some were from here.

00:32:28But in Delhi, who was supporting?

00:32:30There were many.

00:32:31Venu Gopal was one of them.

00:32:33Then there was Harish Chaudhary.

00:32:35He was the biggest problem which I had.

00:32:38He used to come and he was a tail tatter.

00:32:40He was always here and conveying things.

00:32:43And then there was, who were the others with him?

00:32:47I don't know.

00:32:48There were one or two others with him.

00:32:50Randeep Suryawala.

00:32:51For what reason?

00:32:52I don't know.

00:32:53His father was one of my very dear friends.

00:32:55Suryawala was from Tohana Nirvana, that area.

00:32:59That was part of Patiala State.

00:33:00How was Patiala State?

00:33:01They were in Patiala State.

00:33:03And they were old sardars.

00:33:05In those days they called them sardars.

00:33:07They were Chaudhary's but sardars of Patiala.

00:33:10And it was an old relationship.

00:33:12And his father and I used to meet very often.

00:33:14Which I don't know what happened to Suryawala.

00:33:17Anyway, everyone has their own opinions.

00:33:21But the fact is, you know, you speak of a KC Venu Gopal.

00:33:24But he does have Rahul Gandhi's year.

00:33:26So it was an ultimate decision was by Rahul Gandhi.

00:33:28He may have done it.

00:33:29But they may have thought at that stage, you know, that I was not going to bring the government.

00:33:33It would not come back.

00:33:34But this was their thought earlier also.

00:33:36Let me tell you.

00:33:37When the first time I took over and fought the elections, I got 63 seats and a couple of people joined us.

00:33:43So basically we are a majority.

00:33:45We formed a government.

00:33:47Next time, I got 46.

00:33:49And Basel got 42.

00:33:51But the BJP made their government.

00:33:54It was not that we were still the single largest party.

00:33:57Then the third time it came, I believe in Delhi talk went around that Congress is going to lose.

00:34:03And I got the highest ever, 72 seats.

00:34:062017.

00:34:0717.

00:34:08Yeah, 2017.

00:34:09So then this thing must have started again for the next election.

00:34:13And how many did they get now?

00:34:18They got 15 or 14 or something.

00:34:2015 or 17, yeah.

00:34:21But the fact is that, you know, the entire narrative that was spun at that point of time that Captain Sahab doesn't speak to his MLAs.

00:34:29Captain Sahab is not taking any action against the drug mafia.

00:34:33All of that.

00:34:34There was a narrative which was built strongly against you.

00:34:36You know, I, when I came, drugs was one of my major issues.

00:34:41Something which Bhagawan until date says that Gutka sahab ki kasam kha ke bole the.

00:34:47That is, that is all self-creation.

00:34:49What happened was, I was near, I was in Batinda, close to Damdama sahab.

00:34:55And I took up, somebody had a Gutka, so I said, Gutka men deo.

00:35:00I said, I swear that I will break the backbone of this drug trade if we are brought to power.

00:35:05And that's exactly what we did.

00:35:07What I did was, I brought one of my very fine ADGPs who was on the Naxal grid in Chhattisgarh.

00:35:16I asked the whole ministry to send him back to me.

00:35:19And I created an SIT under him.

00:35:21And I have the figures with me.

00:35:23You can have them.

00:35:25We arrested nearly 100,000 people under drugs.

00:35:31Out of which 67,000, I think it was, were convicted.

00:35:35And we went hammer and tongs for these drugs, drug people.

00:35:39In fact, time came when the jail department and one of those ministers who was in this room and doing, was opposing me, was the jail minister.

00:35:52And the jail ministers told us, where do we put all these people?

00:35:56We don't have place left in our jails.

00:35:58Then I told them, I said, okay, people with less crimes, maybe pick pockets or somebody let them go.

00:36:04But these guys are not to go.

00:36:05All these druggies better stay in.

00:36:07And we caught the real big fish.

00:36:10Big fish, we said, anybody who took more than 2 kg, was caught with more than 2 kg of heroin, which amounted to 11,000 rupees or something.

00:36:19Those guys are not to be left.

00:36:22I think I got about 30, 40 of them.

00:36:25I can give you the figures.

00:36:27And they were kept there.

00:36:28But we kept even the little ones.

00:36:30We didn't let anyone go.

00:36:32And the result was this, which again, I'll give you the figures, that from 200 deaths on drugs every day, when I left the government, it was down to 14 in a year, from 200 to 14.

00:36:44So because the drugs were being reduced, so and so, the deaths also went down.

00:36:50So basically, the narrative building was very strong at that time against you.

00:36:53Sorry?

00:36:54The narrative building was very strong against you at that point of time.

00:36:58Yes, but the gangsters had come in. Gangsters also, we had a lot of trouble with gangsters.

00:37:05We had to, the police had to shoot many.

00:37:07Wherever they laid down their arms, they laid down their arms, otherwise they were shot.

00:37:12And that had to be done.

00:37:14Now look at the gangsters.

00:37:15True.

00:37:16Every second day, they are roaming around.

00:37:18And now the drugs are coming in much larger.

00:37:21See, drug business and gangsterism are hand in glove.

00:37:27And weapons are coming from Pakistan.

00:37:29You know, I'm going to take two more questions and reflect on, because you've been, you've never been a congressman, congressman, but you've been with the Congress.

00:37:38I think for many, many would suggest that you've been a Punjab person.

00:37:41You've stood by Punjab and nobody else.

00:37:43Some would suggest you've stood by yourself, you've done your own bidding.

00:37:46But a lot of people who you speak to in Punjab, Captain Sahab, say that he was his own man, but he's done everything for Punjab.

00:37:53Be it at the time, but what you did with the water treaty or, you know, quitting the Congress after Blue Star.

00:37:58So, you know, all of that aside, but where the Congress party comes into question, Captain Sahab, the fact is, there was usually what was understood was that loyalty was rewarded.

00:38:08Rebellion was always quelled.

00:38:11Should I tell you when my, since when I've been with the Congress, since Panditji's days, Panditji used to, my parents are very close.

00:38:21My father, after Nawab Sab Bhopal, he was the Chancellor of the Chamber of Princes, he went and opted for being independent.

00:38:32And my father was saying, no, we must merge with the country, otherwise we cannot survive 540 of us.

00:38:38Yes, I read that, yeah.

00:38:39And that 540, we cannot live on our own.

00:38:43And the first one to merge was Putiyala, but that's a separate part.

00:38:46But he became Chancellor, then this country, all the states merged, went along with him.

00:38:51And the people who used to meet was Panditji, my father, Jinnah, and Siddharth Patel.

00:38:59These were normally the people who used to meet to discuss various issues.

00:39:03So Panditji became quite a, you know, very friendly with us.

00:39:07And whenever he came to Dehradun, when we went to school, he would take Rajiv and Sanjay out and he would take us out also, both of us.

00:39:15Mrs. Gandhi came, she'd do the same.

00:39:18When my mother went, she'd take them out.

00:39:20And so we had a very close relationship.

00:39:23In fact, when Mrs. Gandhi was going through a very difficult period after a divorce,

00:39:30she came and stayed with my mother in child for about a month and a half.

00:39:35And so it was to that extent.

00:39:40Where they split was only on when the Congress split.

00:39:44And my mother was then said, I don't agree with you, Indira.

00:39:47You are ruining the Congress.

00:39:50And then she went and joined the Congress.

00:39:53So that time Mrs. Gandhi got upset with her.

00:39:58And, but then my mother was very hot-headed.

00:40:00It was my grandfather.

00:40:01My nana was very, very sort of a hot-headed person.

00:40:05So was she.

00:40:06She used to be having a mind of her own.

00:40:09But it was a very amazing thing.

00:40:12Because when my mother, when I was in the Congress party from Punjab MP,

00:40:18she was BJP MP from Himachal.

00:40:21So we used to meet in the central hall often.

00:40:23No, we stayed together also, but we would meet otherwise.

00:40:26And whenever Mrs. Gandhi came into the hall passing through,

00:40:29she'd see my mother, she'd come and sit with her and have a cup of coffee with her.

00:40:32So they kept that going.

00:40:34But my mother never went to a house till the day she was killed.

00:40:38Then she waited to pay her respects.

00:40:41That was the only thing.

00:40:42So that was the relationship we had with the family.

00:40:45You grew up with Rajiv Gandhi in Doon School.

00:40:48How was that?

00:40:49Rajiv was a year junior to me.

00:40:51Kashmir House, I was daughter.

00:40:53But he and my brother were together.

00:40:55But Rajiv was a very thorough gentleman, very fine man.

00:40:59And he was, in fact, it was, we became very friendly.

00:41:05And then I went to the army, he went to the civil aviation.

00:41:09There used to be no talk of politics in school.

00:41:11No, no, not then.

00:41:12Of course, we used to meet often.

00:41:13In fact, I remember one day, I had come from somewhere and I was tired or something.

00:41:19And Sonia said, you all look tired.

00:41:22So I said, I've just come from something.

00:41:25So she went and got me a sandwich to eat, you know, that sort of thing.

00:41:28It was that, in a little room he had, but he had all done up with music systems and all that.

00:41:35So from that angle, one was very friendly.

00:41:39Then when I came back to, I left the army and came into politics, then we started meeting more often.

00:41:44And when Sanjay died, I was one of those who managed to persuade him against lots of people's wishes,

00:41:50to go and fight for a Métis.

00:41:52Oh, you were one of those people who actually...

00:41:54And there were four of them, us, and I had the Fursat Ghan's area under me.

00:41:59Then there was Vishu.

00:42:01He had one section.

00:42:03Sanjay had a Métis.

00:42:05And there was one other person.

00:42:07Four of us had...

00:42:08Oh, I'll tell you who he was.

00:42:10He's from Lucknow, that boy.

00:42:12Anyway, these four of us had one section each.

00:42:16And, well, it went out very well.

00:42:19And he got a massive mandate from there.

00:42:21You do go back a long way.

00:42:23Yeah.

00:42:24That is...

00:42:25It's very nice, you know, despite of all that has gone down, the warmth that you still have for the family.

00:42:31Of course I have a warmth.

00:42:32For Mrs. Gandhi, if today she asks me that, Amrinder, I need some work from you, I'll go and see her.

00:42:36If she says, Amrinder, come back to the party.

00:42:38That I can't.

00:42:39That you can't.

00:42:40I think now it's...

00:42:41That ship is saved.

00:42:42I'm 83 years old.

00:42:43I have done a lot.

00:42:45I have been...

00:42:47As I said, you should see that picture.

00:42:50First among equals.

00:42:52That the people are very friendly with each other.

00:42:55But they go according to the way their party wants.

00:42:58And I have made up my mind.

00:43:01I have known the Prime Minister now for many years.

00:43:06And he's fond of me and I'm fond of him.

00:43:09But that's okay.

00:43:10So, but once I've given my word, I can't go back on my word.

00:43:15I never took that word back from the Congress.

00:43:17That they pushed me out.

00:43:19So, here I have given my word.

00:43:22We formed our own party.

00:43:23But I'll tell you why we merged.

00:43:25We merged because the Prime Minister had been telling me that, you know, not the Prime Ministers, other people, that in this Punjab today, you can't have a third force emerging.

00:43:34It won't work.

00:43:35So, we waited for a while.

00:43:36We tried, but it didn't work.

00:43:38Then we said, everyone said, let's go to the Congress.

00:43:40So, it was a collective decision to the BJP.

00:43:43But Captain Sahab, is it more because, you know, when you speak of the BJP, you speak mostly of the Prime Minister as well.

00:43:51Is this union more with the Prime Minister than the party?

00:43:53I still don't know anyone.

00:43:55Forget about anyone.

00:43:56I don't go and meet anyone.

00:43:58I'll tell you who I met.

00:43:59I'll tell you who I met.

00:44:00And you can understand.

00:44:01I met the Prime Minister, Home Minister, the Defence Minister.

00:44:05And Mr. Shikhawat, I don't know what he's holding portfolio, but he was in charge of the election.

00:44:09Captain Sahab, many say if you met the first two, which is the Prime Minister and the Home Minister, that's enough.

00:44:14Who are they?

00:44:15But otherwise, I don't know.

00:44:17Of course, I know.

00:44:18Like, Cynthia, I know because he was Congress too.

00:44:21But otherwise, I don't know how many people are there.

00:44:27If I bump into somebody, I won't know who he is.

00:44:30We'll talk about the party and Punjab because there's a bit of a dichotomy where the BJP comes into question and Punjab and Punjabis.

00:44:37But, you know, you have a very interesting story that you were telling us, you know, of you meeting the Prime Minister.

00:44:44Yeah, that was a very interesting thing because I didn't know the Prime Minister then.

00:44:49There was a, there's a Hind Samacharh group here.

00:44:52Every month, they used to distribute blankets to refugees from Kashmir or jahan se bhi aate thi.

00:44:58How far back was this?

00:45:00Oh, I was PCC president in the 90s, I think.

00:45:05Okay.

00:45:06Some 30 years ago or so.

00:45:08So then at that point of time, Prime Minister Modi was not even Chief Minister Modi then?

00:45:12No, no, he was Prabhari of Punjab.

00:45:14Prabhari, right.

00:45:15Of Punjab.

00:45:16And I was the PCC president.

00:45:17Okay, so he was Punjab Prabhari BJP in the 90s and you were PCC president.

00:45:21In the 90s and I was here.

00:45:23And so when I went to this function, there was a gentleman sitting next to me.

00:45:27I didn't know who he was.

00:45:29And so I got up and I made my speech and I lampasted the BJP.

00:45:35And I naturally had to do that.

00:45:37I was the Congress president.

00:45:39So afterwards, they said, we will talk about Punjab Prabhari.

00:45:43Then I said, and he got up.

00:45:45So I said, this must be Modi then.

00:45:47I don't know who he is.

00:45:48So he got up and he gave a very nice speech.

00:45:52And he then tells me afterwards.

00:45:54I said, Modi ji, you spoke well.

00:45:57He said, you are good, but that was what you said,

00:46:01you must be embarrassed.

00:46:03You must be embarrassed.

00:46:05I said, this was a different type of atmosphere.

00:46:11Then he became Chief Minister.

00:46:15I became Chief Minister.

00:46:17I became Congress President again.

00:46:22That must be that Bajwa time you're mentioning.

00:46:24I don't remember that now.

00:46:26And then after that, he became Prime Minister.

00:46:29I became Chief Minister.

00:46:30So we've known each other since the 90s.

00:46:32And he's always very nice to me.

00:46:35He's nice.

00:46:36The Home Minister is nice.

00:46:38Whenever I go for Punjab, he's always there to be of assistance.

00:46:43And Defence Minister, I went because I didn't agree with their policy of this new thing they've done for the Jawans.

00:46:51Agni Veer.

00:46:52Agni Veer.

00:46:53They were very vocally against you.

00:46:54I think that's absolutely a wrong thing.

00:46:56And I told the Defence Minister, I said, look, when I joined the army,

00:47:00one striper was 11 years service.

00:47:03And three striper would be 17 years.

00:47:06And in those days, he would be about 21, 22 years service.

00:47:13Here, in four years, you're finishing his training, finishing and retiring him.

00:47:17Where do you think, what do you think he's going to do?

00:47:19What job is he going to get, number one?

00:47:21Secondly, he's going, in Punjab at least I know, he will become ready fodder for terrorist groups.

00:47:27And what are you doing?

00:47:29Captain, being an army kid, I agree with you, but the government maintains that the Agni Veer scheme is a huge success.

00:47:34I don't agree with this.

00:47:35This is not a way to…

00:47:37This is ill-treatment of the army, if you tell me that.

00:47:40There's no way to treat regiments.

00:47:43I mean, a man of one-year service, we used to call, with four-year service, we used to call them young soldiers.

00:47:50We didn't call them, we didn't call them anything else.

00:47:53And here, a young soldier is being retired.

00:47:56Before he's even got into the…

00:47:58He knows what the regimental ethos is, what is our history, what is our traditions.

00:48:03He knows nothing.

00:48:04He's out again.

00:48:06Like I said, with an army background, I agree with you, but the government…

00:48:10You're part of the party now, maybe you should give feedback.

00:48:14No, it's okay.

00:48:15But as I said, you know, one has to speak your mind.

00:48:18True.

00:48:19And you have.

00:48:20I think one thing you've done is always poke on your mind.

00:48:21I've always poke on my mind.

00:48:23I've always felt what should be said.

00:48:26Like I say about this chap.

00:48:28As if anyone else, now the Supreme Court…

00:48:30Which chap, sir?

00:48:31This officer who's gone and said, I will not, sir, go to the religious…

00:48:37You know, they don't… these fellows, I don't know…

00:48:40He comes from a very fine regiment.

00:48:42And a man like that, to say this, you belong…

00:48:46When you join as an officer, you belong to the religion, your men belong.

00:48:50If I joined a Muslim regiment…

00:48:53True.

00:48:54Let's say if I was in four Grenadiers, they have Muslim troops, I would be a Muslim.

00:48:58I would say Nawaz with the troops.

00:49:00I would do everything there with the troops.

00:49:02I would do the same if I joined your regiment, the Dogra's.

00:49:05I would go and go to the Dogra's and do exactly the same what they do.

00:49:09True.

00:49:10What did my officers do?

00:49:11I had…

00:49:12My CO was a Dogra, Karn Rand Singh.

00:49:15My…

00:49:16One of my company commanders was Sam Chingappa.

00:49:18He was a Christian.

00:49:19One was a Hindu.

00:49:20Uh…

00:49:21Uh…

00:49:22Uh…

00:49:23Uh…

00:49:24Uh…

00:49:25Uh…

00:49:26Uh…

00:49:27Uh…

00:49:28Uh…

00:49:29Uh…

00:49:30Uh…

00:49:31Uh…

00:49:32Uh…

00:49:33Uh…

00:49:34Uh…

00:49:35Uh…

00:49:36Uh…

00:49:37Uh…

00:49:38Uh…

00:49:39Uh…

00:49:40Uh…

00:49:41Uh…

00:49:42Uh…

00:49:43Uh…

00:49:44Uh…

00:49:45Uh…

00:49:46Uh…

00:49:47Uh…

00:49:48You know, and this is the question I asked you earlier.

00:49:49BJP has been a party that at least hasn't been able to understand Punjab.

00:49:51And electorally, there is, you know, been evidence to suggest the same.

00:49:56And Punjabis haven't been able to understand the BJP.

00:49:58But I'll tell you why.

00:49:59That's…

00:50:00It's…

00:50:01It's unfair to say that.

00:50:02Because…

00:50:03Or let's say, the lead…

00:50:05Earlier leaders of the BJP went wrong.

00:50:07Uh…

00:50:08What they should have done was you should fight every election.

00:50:11You can't run away from a battle.

00:50:13You should fight if…

00:50:14Let's say the first was 1950.

00:50:16Okay?

00:50:17BJP should have put up whatever number seats there were.

00:50:20And then as elections come, every seat you should fight.

00:50:23Then you build up your cadres.

00:50:25Now what they were doing, they were having 10 people or 15 people fighting in alliance

00:50:31with the Akali Dal.

00:50:32So the Akali used to benefit from them and they never benefited from anyone.

00:50:36And today if you are facing this crisis, it's because you have never been able to

00:50:40build up your cadres.

00:50:41But for a party where the core ideology is Hindutva, how does that cut any electoral

00:50:47eyes in…

00:50:48Uh…

00:50:49Well, if they want to win to this time…

00:50:51See, it's…

00:50:52It's…

00:50:53Then they will…

00:50:54There are two ways of looking at it.

00:50:55Either you build up your cadres or you have an alliance and form a government.

00:51:00If you want to form a government, then you have to do it with the Akali Dal.

00:51:03There's no other way of the BJP forming any sort of…

00:51:08Being part of any sort of government in Punjab.

00:51:11Or if you want to build up your cadres, then be prepared for two, three elections to fight

00:51:16all 117 seats on your own.

00:51:18What would you advise them this time around?

00:51:19Sorry?

00:51:20What would you advise them this time around?

00:51:22To join the Akalis?

00:51:23I think Punjab needs governance, good governance.

00:51:27And it needs…

00:51:28Why are we late just now?

00:51:30Because the electricity wasn't…

00:51:32It was off.

00:51:33We are getting eight, nine hours, nine park outs every year.

00:51:37How can industry come here?

00:51:39Who will come here and work like this?

00:51:41I mean, there are so many things that Punjab can do, but we can't do it because we don't

00:51:45have…

00:51:46This government is not serious in its own land.

00:51:49You got to have a government that can really be serious and go about it and have a good

00:51:54government to govern.

00:51:55But for someone who knows Punjab…

00:51:57So I would say that yes, you must have an alliance.

00:52:00Must have an alliance?

00:52:01They won't like it.

00:52:02A lot of people don't like it when I say this, but I think it's…

00:52:05If you want to form a government, if you don't want to form a government, then there's

00:52:08nothing, then you fight all the seats.

00:52:10So what you're advocating is an alliance with the Akalis?

00:52:12With the Akalis.

00:52:13There are three Akalis.

00:52:14There are also three Akalis that we have to see.

00:52:16You have to pick one, the strongest of the lot.

00:52:18You have to choose.

00:52:19Well, the ones that when you come nearer the election, you'll know which one is dominating.

00:52:24And then you talk to them and do it.

00:52:28This time I had it in the parliamentary election.

00:52:31I got Sukhbir here.

00:52:32He came to me.

00:52:34And I told Delhi that I'll talk to him and let's see.

00:52:37We must get some seats.

00:52:39So we agreed on three seats first.

00:52:42Then they said four seats.

00:52:44They gave Pateala also.

00:52:45Pateala was not part of it.

00:52:47That means four.

00:52:48Then I said, no, no.

00:52:49You give me Chandigarh also.

00:52:50Manish is wanting to fight from there.

00:52:52You give Chandigarh.

00:52:53So they agreed on five seats.

00:52:55Okay?

00:52:56To me.

00:52:57Sukhbir agreed.

00:52:58So I rang up Mr. Nada.

00:52:59And I told him five seats.

00:53:01That evening they were meeting.

00:53:03So when he mentioned this to the Home Minister.

00:53:05The Home Minister said, let me talk to Sukhbir.

00:53:08He did talk to Sukhbir.

00:53:09In the meantime, Sukhbir must have discussed it with some very close colleagues.

00:53:13And they must have said, no, you can't do this.

00:53:15Where will our people go and all this?

00:53:17Sukhbir told the Home Minister.

00:53:19I can only agree on three.

00:53:21Otherwise, and what have we got now?

00:53:23We've got one seat for Punjab.

00:53:26Arsimrat Kaur.

00:53:27That's all.

00:53:28There's nobody else from Punjab who can carry our voice there to people.

00:53:34To the House.

00:53:35And had we won those together, we would have got at least seven or eight seats.

00:53:40Akhali's and we would have won.

00:53:42And then at least Punjab's voice would have been heard.

00:53:45So you're talking about the Lok Sabha elections.

00:53:49Lok Sabha elections.

00:53:50Yeah, you were talking.

00:53:51But, you know, why I say that the BJP hasn't been able to understand Punjab.

00:53:55At the back of, even the flack that you got for joining the BJP.

00:53:58Is the same government that put in the farm laws.

00:54:01That put the farmers through, you know, nearly two years of abject misery.

00:54:06Which you were the one who raised that cause right in the beginning there.

00:54:10You know, you raised that banner.

00:54:11I in fact allowed them to go to Delhi.

00:54:12Exactly.

00:54:13I agree with that.

00:54:14And then, you know, do you see a lot of people see that as a betrayal of you going to the BJP.

00:54:19Despite of all of that.

00:54:21No, but the BJP, the farmers were against the BJP only on some issues.

00:54:27If those issues had been resolved, this problem wouldn't have risen.

00:54:31It would not have risen.

00:54:32No.

00:54:33Second thing, Captain Sahib, you know, I'll give you another example.

00:54:36There was the whole talk that in the winter session, there will be a constitutional amendment to the effect.

00:54:42I am against that.

00:54:43To bring in Chandigarh in the ambit of Article 240.

00:54:46Look, how many commissions are you going to have in this world for solving a problem?

00:54:51Take this issue of Chandigarh.

00:54:53Chandigarh, when Lahore went, we went to Simla.

00:54:57Okay.

00:54:58From Simla, Pandaji and Siddharth Prathap Singh, Kairoham,

00:55:02Siddharth Prathap Singh decided Chandigarh is a new capital.

00:55:04Punjab.

00:55:05So, Punjab's capital was made in Chandigarh.

00:55:08Then, in the meantime, what happened?

00:55:12We formed this government here and then the division of the state took place.

00:55:21You got Himachal Pradesh, Harayana and us.

00:55:24Now, the point is that if you get a capital which is made for a particular state,

00:55:30if some other state wants to break away and go, then you don't take the other capital with you also.

00:55:36I mean, that is Punjab's capital and if you want to build it, they had decided.

00:55:41What was the decision?

00:55:42The decision was to make Rotak for Haryana and Simla for Himachal.

00:55:46Simla toh pehle hi tha, unka ne bana liya, Rotak ni bana ya.

00:55:49Now, that's part of the Punjab Reorganization Act.

00:55:52That's part of the Rajiv Langawal Accord.

00:55:54You've made commitments at the national level by our Prime Minister.

00:55:58So, regardless of which government comes into power, a Prime Ministerial decision taken at that level should be honored.

00:56:07And they should have done this and finished it long ago.

00:56:10So, you're completely against Chandigarh coming into the ambit of Article 240.

00:56:14Absolutely.

00:56:15It is ours.

00:56:16This is ours and our water is ours.

00:56:17Now, water.

00:56:19Why is the water?

00:56:20Punjab has our water, whatever it is.

00:56:23And at the time of the division of Pakistan and India.

00:56:27And some water came here.

00:56:29Now, you have taken the quantum of water which is with current Punjab.

00:56:33You have taken Satraj Bhyas and part of Ravi.

00:56:36Okay?

00:56:37Part of that water pre-elections, pre-partition was also the Yamna.

00:56:44Mm-hmm.

00:56:45Tajewala Headworks.

00:56:46Mm-hmm.

00:56:47That was the Yamna water which was being used in the western part of Punjab which was Haryana now.

00:56:52But that they never took into context when they had this division being made.

00:57:01Why not?

00:57:02And when we said that you've got enough water.

00:57:05Haryana has 60-40 was the division.

00:57:08It's got more than 60% water when you join the Yamna water into it.

00:57:12So, why don't you go to us?

00:57:15We've got no other water.

00:57:16This side the Yamna has gone to Haryana.

00:57:19The other waters of Satraj and all have gone to Haryana and that side is in Pakistan.

00:57:24And then where are we stuck in between?

00:57:25Where does the water come from?

00:57:26Where water is concerned, you've taken a very hard political stand at one time even against

00:57:30your own government.

00:57:31No, everyone remembers that.

00:57:33But, you know, when I come back to the BJP, not understanding, you know, Punjab, where the

00:57:38farm laws issue happened, then again there was talk of 2-40, Article 2-40 which you're

00:57:43saying you're strongly against because then Punjab will lose claim over Chandigarh.

00:57:47Then, you know, there was the Education Ministry coming and trying to dilute the Senate

00:57:52of Punjab University where nominate instead of elect members.

00:57:56You know, these are the things happening.

00:57:58For instance, on this issue of the university, the university was Punjab University which

00:58:03was in Lahore.

00:58:04It's come here and it's always been here and the Chancellor has always been the Vice President

00:58:11of India.

00:58:12So, what's your problem?

00:58:13That's your own party.

00:58:14You have to ask your own party what's the problem.

00:58:16No, I don't agree.

00:58:17No, that's why I'm saying I don't agree with these things.

00:58:20You don't.

00:58:21This is unnecessary.

00:58:22And what about here?

00:58:24What do you want to make Chandigarh a union territory within Punjab?

00:58:28I would like to say Lakshwadeep or something like Lakshwadeep or the Andaman Islands.

00:58:33We are a full fledged state.

00:58:35We are a state with a great history and a great tradition.

00:58:38And we were the ones that have lost out everything in the partition.

00:58:43I have a letter from my father written to the Prime Minister there that you are totally destroying

00:58:48the ethos of Punjab.

00:58:50And by giving all the Punjab sahab and Natkana sahab and all that area which was very rich,

00:58:57which was West Punjabis to call it in those days, giving it away to Pakistan.

00:59:01So these sort of things, you know, and suddenly from a huge big, from a big room like this,

00:59:08you suddenly become Punjab which is stable.

00:59:10And then that also you want to make us a union territory.

00:59:13That's an insult.

00:59:14That's an insult.

00:59:15One thing is clear, you don't mince your words even if it is against your new party.

00:59:19No, it's not a party.

00:59:20I am sure the party understands what I am saying.

00:59:22Clearly they don't understand it, sir.

00:59:24Because it's one blunder after the other.

00:59:26Well, they have to make that change.

00:59:28Otherwise they will have trouble again.

00:59:30How many times do you want trouble in Punjab?

00:59:32What are the things?

00:59:33What created the terrorism?

00:59:35What brought about Blue Star?

00:59:37Anandpur sahab Resolution.

00:59:39What was the Anandpur sahab Resolution?

00:59:41It was more powers to the states, federal structure of the states.

00:59:45And those states, you are even diluting them further.

00:59:48So you will find that again terrorism will grow, trouble will start.

00:59:51What is the point?

00:59:52That's a big statement.

00:59:53Sixty years person, I am sitting here who has been in this nitty-gritty of Punjab politics.

01:00:00Don't you think that I can contribute something?

01:00:03You just have to ask me to come and please explain what my views are.

01:00:08Nobody asks us.

01:00:10Nobody asks you.

01:00:13No.

01:00:14Nobody asks.

01:00:15Who is going to give you?

01:00:17Mr. Bittu is going to give you the information on Punjab.

01:00:22He was a little boy who I made into the party president here.

01:00:26And who else?

01:00:28Sirsa.

01:00:29Sirsa is a man from Haryana.

01:00:32And his politics has been Delhi.

01:00:35So he is going to advise you on Punjab politics.

01:00:39Now this is what I am saying.

01:00:41Or Mr. Jakar who is also.

01:00:43These are things that we should be, you know, we are all there for our state.

01:00:47We are not living forever.

01:00:48But whatever we have experienced is there for us.

01:00:51It needs to be utilized.

01:00:52Sorry?

01:00:53It needs to be utilized.

01:00:54You are right.

01:00:55Yeah.

01:00:56We should be able to tell them.

01:00:57Yes.

01:00:58Call us.

01:00:59Ask us.

01:01:00Give you what advice.

01:01:01And then you make up your minds.

01:01:02But if you don't call us.

01:01:03And you don't ask us.

01:01:04Then what do we do to do?

01:01:05You speak about Operation Blue Star, Captain Sahab.

01:01:08And you know, I was reading something and I was astounded.

01:01:12Because you did seem to indicate that there was a possibility that everything could have

01:01:15been sorted out with just shared dialogue.

01:01:17You are also looking at writing a book in it.

01:01:19I am writing a book.

01:01:21Because there are only three of us left of that period from Punjab politics.

01:01:25There is myself.

01:01:26There is our former speaker, Ravinder Singh.

01:01:29He is with the new Akali Dal which has been formed.

01:01:32And Mr. Sucha Singh Chotipur who was also minister.

01:01:36Earlier we were colleagues together.

01:01:38Ravi was our speaker.

01:01:39He was the minister of state.

01:01:41I was the minister of agriculture and rural development in the Brunala government at that time.

01:01:46So we are the only three left now.

01:01:48The others have all gone to the happy hunting grounds.

01:01:51So now it's time for us to, whatever our history is.

01:01:56You know, I've read a lot of these books which have come out from various people.

01:02:00But none of them have been in the nitty-gritty of it.

01:02:02Now what happened to me, I'll tell you my case.

01:02:05When the Anant Pusabh Resolution was written, Mrs. Gandhi handed it over to Sardar Saran Singh to do,

01:02:13to negotiate with the Akhalis and find out what can be done.

01:02:16He took Comrade Harikeshan Singh Surjit and Balwan Singh who was the finance minister as his team.

01:02:23And he had one commitment from Mrs. Gandhi that whatever you decide, I will honor it.

01:02:28Now something happened.

01:02:29Now I don't remember the issue and never came up for discussion.

01:02:33It came up and he said yes to the Akhalis and Mrs. Gandhi said I can't do it.

01:02:39So we quit.

01:02:40I was sitting in the Central Hall of Parliament and I was sent for by Mrs. Dhawan that Mrs. Gandhi wanted to see you.

01:02:47She was in a parliamentary office.

01:02:49So I went.

01:02:50She said you know Nogawal?

01:02:53I said yes ma'am.

01:02:54How do you know him?

01:02:55I said well he comes from my mother's villages.

01:02:58He's from that part.

01:03:00Do you know Bindrawal?

01:03:02I said no.

01:03:03She said you must be knowing him.

01:03:06I hear you know him.

01:03:07I said I don't know him.

01:03:08He's a Sidhu.

01:03:09Millions of Sidhus.

01:03:10I don't know every Sidhu in the whole thing.

01:03:13I don't know him.

01:03:14That's Akhal's Sidhu.

01:03:16So he said, she said can you make contact?

01:03:18I said yes.

01:03:19So I made contact with him.

01:03:20And I kept talking to him for a long time.

01:03:24I had gone earlier to his village.

01:03:26In fact, I repeated this before also.

01:03:31He called us at 10 o'clock to his village.

01:03:34And he didn't come till 3 in the morning.

01:03:36It was January.

01:03:37It was freezing cold.

01:03:38So I had nowhere to go.

01:03:39So I got into Bindrawal's bed and went to sleep.

01:03:42What are the odds of that?

01:03:45It was in a little house in Rody village.

01:03:51So anyway, that was over.

01:03:54And we kept talking like this over the next many years.

01:03:59So when you got into Bindrawal's bed, then what happened?

01:04:03Complete the story.

01:04:04No, no.

01:04:05Then at 4 o'clock in the morning.

01:04:06Did he come in?

01:04:074 o'clock in the morning, my brother was there.

01:04:09And so was Comrade Sajugandar Singhman, who was Simranjit Singhman's father.

01:04:14So my brother shook me and I looked up and I saw Bindrawal.

01:04:18I said, well, Sanchi, you told me 10 o'clock.

01:04:21It's damn cold.

01:04:22So I had no other place to go.

01:04:23I got your bed and I went to sleep in it.

01:04:26So he was nice about it.

01:04:28Anyway, we kept meeting all the throughout.

01:04:30And I kept telling them, you're heading for a crisis.

01:04:33Because I could see it.

01:04:34Do for what?

01:04:35When, by that time, you know, General Shabek Singh had come to them.

01:04:39And I used to, I must have had about 10, 15 meetings with Bindrawal and with Longawal many times.

01:04:46And I used to go to Guru Nanak Navas, which we used to live on top and Bindrawal used to live underneath.

01:04:52All night firing was going on when I was there.

01:04:55And we used to go by aircraft the government provided.

01:04:59And Ravi and I used to go.

01:05:01Ravi used to go to Longawal and I used to go to Bindrawal.

01:05:04And then we used to meet up at Longawal's room.

01:05:07And I used to tell him then that, you know, when I went back, I used to see them cutting into the marble.

01:05:16And I could make, they were making bunkers for machine guns.

01:05:19And I told them, I said, this is a proper military strategy.

01:05:25Shabeg is known to be for somebody who understands urban warfare.

01:05:30And he's doing it exactly this way.

01:05:34And I'll tell you, after the whole thing was over, 10-12 days later, I went.

01:05:39So I went particularly to one of the bunkers where the LMGs were.

01:05:42And I must tell you, there were nearly a thousand weapons total, not in that bunker.

01:05:46In that bunker, when I went, there were empties lying over.

01:05:50And my empties up to my ankle.

01:05:53Oh Lord.

01:05:54So where did those...

01:05:56The weapons?

01:05:57There was a, there's a nine part serial made by one of our eminent journalists who covers Sandhu.

01:06:07And he's shown the weapons in the end.

01:06:09There were nearly 80 light machine guns.

01:06:12There were about 300 AK-47s, 315s and 7.62s.

01:06:18You saw them physically?

01:06:19On the, on the, on the, no, I didn't see them.

01:06:21Right.

01:06:22But the film, I've seen the film.

01:06:23And similarly, there were nearly about 7-800 pistols.

01:06:28Overall, about a thousand.

01:06:30And that's about one, what one infantry battalion has.

01:06:33True.

01:06:34So that is it.

01:06:35And where did that emanation come from?

01:06:36Who brought it in?

01:06:37Who didn't bring it in?

01:06:38Why did, how, who, what was the government of the day sleeping?

01:06:41What were the chief minister doing?

01:06:42Darwara Singh.

01:06:43Now, what was happening?

01:06:44I believe it was Darwara Singh behind it.

01:06:46And why I believe it?

01:06:48Because we were all gunning for Darwara Singh.

01:06:50That this man is taking Punjab into the drains.

01:06:53And we are going to be in a terrible mess.

01:06:55So you're saying it's a state sponsor?

01:06:56He may be a Sikh, but he doesn't understand the Sikh psyche of the time,

01:07:01which was becoming militarized by Bindrawali and all.

01:07:04And you better get somebody else to run it.

01:07:07And he knew that if there was a disturbed conditions,

01:07:14the history of Mrs. Gandhi was such that she never changed horses in midstream.

01:07:19She used to wait for normalcy to come.

01:07:21Then she would change.

01:07:22So he wanted the pot to be boiling, kept boiling.

01:07:25And how did it go in?

01:07:26They say, the car sewa, Harithi car sewa trucks me.

01:07:29Can you take a battalion load of weapons and ammunition into that?

01:07:32Every time you pull the trigger of an LMG, you get 28 rounds have gone.

01:07:36Where did all that ammunition come from?

01:07:39Where did the weapons come from?

01:07:40Has anybody tried to analyze that?

01:07:42And there, how many people died?

01:07:45How many of us soldiers were injured?

01:07:47All shot.

01:07:49Now the man, this Shabhaik Singh, put them on fixed lines

01:07:55at a level where you hit somebody in the legs.

01:07:58Object was that wherever the entrance is to come,

01:08:01let them fall on the ground.

01:08:03Don't kill them if necessary.

01:08:04Let them lie there so that people can't get through that entrance.

01:08:08So it was a well-planned whole business there.

01:08:11Now these sort of things, they have to understand that, you know,

01:08:15that's why I thought that these are things that I must, I will ask.

01:08:19And the government should even times have passed, doesn't matter.

01:08:22Find out where those weapons came from.

01:08:24You can't get a thousand weapons in there.

01:08:26And they are collected by you, by the government.

01:08:28The pictures are there.

01:08:29And I'm sure they are all registered and put in some coat or the other.

01:08:33Somewhere they are being kept there.

01:08:35It's quite amazing because you are writing a book.

01:08:38And you also mentioned that a couple of times,

01:08:40Rajiv Gandhi did try and meet Bindranwale.

01:08:42Yes, twice, twice, with me.

01:08:45In fact, he asked me, he called me.

01:08:47And he called me and he said, Viju, can you fix a time?

01:08:51He used to call you?

01:08:52Who?

01:08:53Rajiv Gandhi would call you Viju.

01:08:55No, no.

01:08:56Okay.

01:08:57He called me.

01:08:58He called me and he said, he said,

01:09:00Amrinder, can you fix this?

01:09:02I said, I'll try.

01:09:03So, I asked him and he was quite willing to come.

01:09:07And we agreed to meet.

01:09:08So, I said, where?

01:09:10He said, I'll talk to him.

01:09:12When I told him that he was agreeable,

01:09:15it was their government.

01:09:17So, they must have told IB or whoever they were.

01:09:20And an arrangement was made to meet at the Ambala Air Force Station.

01:09:25And he wanted to be close to Punjab.

01:09:28And by that time, you know, he had not yet gone into the Golden Temple.

01:09:33Once he went into the Golden Temple in July of 1982, he never came out.

01:09:37This was some time before that.

01:09:38Because I took over this job in the Winter Session of Parliament.

01:09:42That was December, January at that time.

01:09:45So, we left the house and we hadn't even got to the Satyajan Airport.

01:09:53We had taken the aircraft which we were taking was

01:09:57Swami Dhendra Brahmachari's Polar Pusher.

01:10:00He had a Polar Pusher.

01:10:01Polar Pusher means there was a propeller in front and propeller at the back.

01:10:06And we hadn't even got to the aircraft when a message came, come back.

01:10:10So, we went back and nothing.

01:10:14I asked him.

01:10:15He said, some controversy started something or the other.

01:10:20So, I didn't question him on that.

01:10:23The Sant got a bit upset.

01:10:25After about two, three weeks, he again asked me.

01:10:30He says, can you fix it again?

01:10:32I said, but this time don't cancel it.

01:10:33He said, no, we won't cancel it.

01:10:35Fixed it.

01:10:36He came again.

01:10:37And we flew.

01:10:38And we were just short of Ambala when a wireless message came through to come back.

01:10:44So, we went back again.

01:10:46And that was the last that Rajiv, these two incidents took place.

01:10:51But I met him right up to, I think, early 83.

01:10:58Then I told Mrs. Gandhi, I said, you know, now I have done this for you for two years.

01:11:03I think you need fresh blood and fresh mind in it because it's becoming a bit stale for me.

01:11:11And that fellow also is now getting a bit, you know, as time passed, he got more and more people came and supported him.

01:11:19So, his morale went up.

01:11:21Earlier on, he was willing to talk.

01:11:23Then by that time, he had to come.

01:11:24You know, chaps like Shubhak Singh saying this, don't worry.

01:11:27The moment the army comes in, Pakistan will come in and all that sort of stuff.

01:11:31So, he just got amplified.

01:11:32Those usual things going on.

01:11:33So, the reason why, Indira Gandhi was the one who thought that maybe Rajiv Gandhi would get ambushed.

01:11:38So, therefore, she called off those two meetings.

01:11:40What happened was, intelligence bearers always comes to know.

01:11:43Now, the IB of Punjab intelligence must have come to know.

01:11:47And they must have informed them.

01:11:49And the, or the Prime Minister, Chief Minister must have told them to inform them.

01:11:53That you have ambushed, you will kill them.

01:11:56Okay, Sanjay had just died.

01:11:58So, naturally on the mother, this must have had an impact.

01:12:02You say, Captain Sahib, that Indira Gandhi was somebody who would never change horses midstream.

01:12:06She would wait for a placid period before effecting that change.

01:12:11What do you make of what's going on right now within the Congress?

01:12:14There is a, you know, an entire turf war raging in Karnataka midstream, which is exactly midstream.

01:12:21It's two and a half years.

01:12:22Don't ask me to comment.

01:12:23Don't ask me to comment on the Congress.

01:12:25You don't want to.

01:12:26Firstly, I don't care.

01:12:27What happened with you?

01:12:28It's happening there.

01:12:29It happened in Madhya Pradesh.

01:12:30It happened in Chhattisgarh.

01:12:31It happened in Rajasthan.

01:12:32Well, good luck to them the way they are functioning because it's Congress has had a very great history.

01:12:40They mustn't forget that from the days of well before partition and all of them.

01:12:46They are the ones responsible for India's independence partly.

01:12:50So, that is an unfortunate thing that it's happening to them.

01:12:55But then that's their internal affairs.

01:12:57They have to do it.

01:12:58All right.

01:12:59So, it's also a bed that they've made and they need to lie in it, I guess.

01:13:02And one sometimes, I do read to find out, keep track of where the old party is going.

01:13:09And it becomes, I don't, let's say I don't interfere and I have already made a commitment.

01:13:19Once you make a commitment, you can't get out of that.

01:13:22Have you spoken to Ms. Gandhi ever since when she said she was sorry?

01:13:26That message, no.

01:13:27After that?

01:13:28After that, nothing.

01:13:29Nothing?

01:13:30You haven't heard from her in now four years?

01:13:32No, no, no, nothing to do.

01:13:34No conversation, no nothing.

01:13:36Absolutely nothing.

01:13:38I would not at all mind talking to her.

01:13:42That's not a hassle.

01:13:43I mean, if she rings me tomorrow and say, Amrinda, how are you?

01:13:46I would have a chat with her.

01:13:48If she doesn't feel well and I feel that things are not right, I'd certainly call her.

01:13:53You're going to pick up the phone.

01:13:54Call her and ask her.

01:13:55That's not a problem.

01:13:56I don't believe in this business of isolating yourself.

01:14:00Your commitment is to your party politically.

01:14:03But my friendships are my friendships.

01:14:06And that's different.

01:14:08Just last five minutes, Captain Sahab.

01:14:11A, what are your views of your incumbent government, which is the armed army party?

01:14:15Do you think that they're in the reckoning for a second term?

01:14:19These chaps.

01:14:21Yes, these chaps.

01:14:23If these chaps ever get in, I'll quit politics.

01:14:27You'll quit politics.

01:14:28Because I can't imagine with all my experience that I can convince myself that they'll come back.

01:14:37You don't see them coming back?

01:14:38No.

01:14:39No question of it.

01:14:40Why?

01:14:41It's a total dumb party, dumb leadership.

01:14:44Everything is dumb in them.

01:14:45What is that?

01:14:46Tell me.

01:14:47Have you ever heard of a system where the chief minister is just a figurehead, only available

01:14:52for television?

01:14:53Many would say the BJP is like that.

01:14:54Like you invite him or somebody else invites him for an invite.

01:14:57But Captain Sahab, many say the BJP is like that, where the chief ministers are just figureheads.

01:15:02Be it, they gave examples of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh.

01:15:07I haven't seen that happening here, but I can tell you about my thing here.

01:15:13You know, you've had various types of governments in the past, some good, some bad.

01:15:16I've also mentioned our own bad one, like Dharwara Singh's government.

01:15:20But the fact is that you can't have a government where the chief minister is just a figurehead,

01:15:26showing his face.

01:15:27Especially in Punjab.

01:15:28And you send two people from Delhi, one Sisodia and one other fellow who slapped that MP,

01:15:33lady MP.

01:15:35And on top of that, you have the important files being sent to Delhi for Mr. Kejriwal to

01:15:42decide on.

01:15:43What is this government?

01:15:44Is this the way to run a government?

01:15:46I mean, I can tell you in my nine and a half years as chief minister, not once has anyone

01:15:52asked me to do anything in Punjab's economy.

01:15:57Primacy, yes.

01:15:58Many times.

01:15:59And he was very happy the way things were going.

01:16:01Dr. Manmohan Singh.

01:16:03I never had any trouble.

01:16:06And they never told me what to do.

01:16:08It was left to me to do.

01:16:10And if we had meetings, yes, sometimes in a discussion something would come up and I'd say,

01:16:15yes, I've noted that and we'll make this correction.

01:16:18That's all.

01:16:19Many say that's old school politics.

01:16:21Things have changed.

01:16:22But Captain Sahab, on a lighter note, you come from Patiala.

01:16:27Somebody actually asked me at work that I must ask you, where did Patiala Peg come from?

01:16:31What is a Patiala Peg?

01:16:33What is the origin of a Patiala Peg?

01:16:35Well, my Patiala Peg was an interesting story.

01:16:40You know, my grandfather, the one in the middle there, he was the chairman of the cricket board.

01:16:50So Patiala Peg has been coined by your family.

01:16:53Yeah, yeah, of course.

01:16:54Right.

01:16:55It was the cricket board.

01:16:57And after that, my father was cricket board.

01:16:59But before he was cricket board, my father captained India from 32 to 35.

01:17:04And then 35, my grandfather got ill, so he had to leave cricket.

01:17:08But my grandfather had the Australians come here and they came to Patiala.

01:17:13And Amarnath was a young boy.

01:17:16Amarnath told me this story.

01:17:17And he said, we were called and we said, look boys, go and have your drink, dinner, and get to bed.

01:17:25And I want to see you in bed by 8 o'clock.

01:17:28So they were given a lot of booze to drink till 10 at night or 11 at night.

01:17:42So next day when the match started, they were seeing two balls coming and three balls coming.

01:17:47So they were given whisky like this.

01:17:50Okay.

01:17:51So this is a Patiala Peg.

01:17:52This is a Patiala Peg with that much whisky and about that much water.

01:17:55So that started with the Australians.

01:17:57Is it more than a 60 ml?

01:17:58Sorry?

01:17:59Is it more than a 60 ml, which is a traditional large?

01:18:01Well, I don't know.

01:18:02I'm not drinking.

01:18:03So I don't know.

01:18:04But it's about that much.

01:18:05So it's about that much.

01:18:06Okay.

01:18:07With a little bit of water.

01:18:08But let's say with that big glass, that much water, say.

01:18:11Okay.

01:18:12So that's the Patiala Peg.

01:18:13The Australians had to suffer.

01:18:14And that's where the Patiala Peg started from there.

01:18:16Oh, so that's where the term is coined.

01:18:18That's the history of the Patiala Peg.

01:18:19That's why it started Patiala.

01:18:20Because the match was in Patiala.

01:18:23The Australians played in Patiala.

01:18:26Amazing.

01:18:27That's something that you never know.

01:18:28Great trivia, Captain Sahib.

01:18:29Your interest, Captain Sahib, you've fed us a lovely lunch.

01:18:33You've always enjoyed cooking.

01:18:34You enjoy gardening.

01:18:35You enjoy writing.

01:18:36Is this where your interest lies away from politics?

01:18:39And of course memorabilia because you have the best war memorabilia.

01:18:42Well, that is my own regiment.

01:18:47Most of it.

01:18:48Or my own experience.

01:18:49I've got friends in those pictures who are no longer with us.

01:18:54So I like to see the pictures.

01:18:56Sometimes when I get fed up I go and sit there.

01:18:58And just look around and my morale comes back.

01:19:01When I look at the old times and what my soldiers have been through.

01:19:05My own regiment.

01:19:06I keep very closely in with my regiment.

01:19:10They've just come from the Siachen Glacier and they are in Barakpur now.

01:19:14In Calcutta.

01:19:15So we are all the time together.

01:19:17My father was in the same regiment.

01:19:19My grandfather was in the same regiment.

01:19:20So we have a third generation going through.

01:19:24And good old days.

01:19:25They were wonderful days.

01:19:26And that gives me a lot of happiness when I look around and see what these boys have

01:19:31been through and what we've achieved.

01:19:34That's tremendous.

01:19:35Do you have any regrets, Captain Saab, when you look back?

01:19:38You know, it's been a while.

01:19:39It's been 60 years in public life.

01:19:41I think the only regret I have is I shouldn't have left the army.

01:19:44Really?

01:19:45That's a regret.

01:19:46Having been here also, it was interesting being in politics too.

01:19:52Particularly when I was Chief Minister.

01:19:54Then I felt I could do something.

01:19:56And I did do.

01:19:57Whether people accept it or not.

01:19:59That's a different issue.

01:20:00But from my side I did what I could.

01:20:02And I think I did some positive things.

01:20:06No, you do.

01:20:07Because a lot of people we speak to, most don't see you so much as a congressman.

01:20:10But somebody, a man who stood by his state.

01:20:13Well, it is my state.

01:20:14And if I don't stand by my state, then you know, it would be sad.

01:20:20Let's put it this way.

01:20:21A lot of people don't stand by their state.

01:20:23They stand by themselves.

01:20:24True.

01:20:25And that themselves business is what has got into Indian politics.

01:20:28And that's ruining us.

01:20:30Nobody thinks of their states and their problems.

01:20:33And that's why we suffer.

01:20:34And that's why gangsterism is coming up.

01:20:36That's why Pakistan tries to make use of all these sort of things.

01:20:39To harass us and harm us.

01:20:42So a regret would be that you wouldn't have left the forces.

01:20:46Sorry?

01:20:47Regret would be that you wouldn't have left the forces.

01:20:50I shouldn't have left.

01:20:52But that day I only left because there was nobody left at home.

01:20:56My father was in Rome, ambassador.

01:20:58My mother was in parliament.

01:20:59And somebody had to be home.

01:21:01My mother, my sister's husband had lost his leg in the war in 65.

01:21:05He was in Hudson's Horse.

01:21:07My eldest sister's husband was our ambassador in Poland.

01:21:10My brother was in the army.

01:21:12So who was to?

01:21:13There was nobody at home.

01:21:14If an 83 year old Captain Amrinder Singh had to give one piece of advice to a 23 year old Amrinder Singh, what would he say?

01:21:23You've just been commissioned.

01:21:25Now make this your career.

01:21:26Make this your career.

01:21:27Yeah, absolutely.

01:21:28I would do that.

01:21:30Would you have done anything differently?

01:21:33I was commissioned when I was 21.

01:21:3521, yeah.

01:21:36At that time.

01:21:37Two years service.

01:21:38Two years service.

01:21:39Twenty-three I would have been a lieutenant only.

01:21:41And that's a lovely life to be.

01:21:44No regrets other than this and your personal life?

01:21:46Everything you've lived life on your own terms?

01:21:49I have.

01:21:50I think I've had a very good life.

01:21:52I have no regrets at all.

01:21:53I mean, we all have to go someday.

01:21:55But I'll go with the feeling that I've achieved what I wanted to achieve.

01:22:01And I feel confident.

01:22:02There's a while you're back in.

01:22:03There's a lot more to do.

01:22:05Last question, Captain Saab, because you're such a great host.

01:22:09If you were hosting a dinner and you could call and invite three guests from across the spectrum, anybody,

01:22:16any three people from across the spectrum, who would they be?

01:22:20Any three people from across the spectrum?

01:22:23Across eras, across, you know, history, countries.

01:22:28Well, I think I would call my Prime Minister.

01:22:32I get on well with him.

01:22:34I would call on Mrs. Gandhi.

01:22:35I get on well with her.

01:22:37I mean, I've always been well with her.

01:22:40And who else would be the fourth, third?

01:22:44You'd have to get somebody to start a conversation because it would be…

01:22:47If you have Prime Minister Modi and you have Sonia Gandhiji sitting on the same table,

01:22:52he would be the only interlocutor.

01:22:54Who are the three people who you would like to invite?

01:23:00Just on a social occasion.

01:23:02Yeah, yeah.

01:23:03Not for any discussion.

01:23:04You're hosting a dinner.

01:23:05Yes, yes.

01:23:06These three.

01:23:07Third, I don't know who I'd invite.

01:23:09Third, who could I invite?

01:23:11I don't know.

01:23:13I think it would just be three of us.

01:23:14Three of you.

01:23:15Then you are playing the part of the interlocutor.

01:23:18Final words before we sign off.

01:23:20Captain Amrinder Singh, what would you want to tell our viewers?

01:23:23Tell?

01:23:24Your final words.

01:23:26Signing off on this interview, what would you want to say?

01:23:28What do you want me to tell our viewers?

01:23:30What would you want to say?

01:23:31Where do you stand today?

01:23:32I stand with my party.

01:23:34I stand to fight for them.

01:23:36I start for a stable country.

01:23:39I think the Prime Minister is doing a good job.

01:23:41People may crib and say what they like.

01:23:44But as he's put India on the world map again, let's put it that way.

01:23:48I've seen lots of Prime Ministers.

01:23:50I've been in this government for a long time.

01:23:52And I think the way, and particularly, I think what he's doing for me personally,

01:23:59what he's doing for the defense services.

01:24:01I think that is something very important.

01:24:03Both the equipping, and I've been through that period when I joined my regiment,

01:24:10we were still using Second World War equipment.

01:24:12True.

01:24:13And in 1963, we only started in 64 getting better equipment after the Chinese whipped us.

01:24:21And now, of course, everything has changed.

01:24:25I mean, people may talk about the Sandhur, whatever Sandhur.

01:24:28We've achieved what you wanted.

01:24:30This is what people don't seem to understand.

01:24:32I don't know why four aircraft have been shot down.

01:24:35What happens if four aircraft should let ten be shot down?

01:24:39What was our aim?

01:24:40Our aim was to demolish these terrorist camps.

01:24:43What did we achieve?

01:24:44We had two reasons, two objectives.

01:24:46One was the camps.

01:24:47Second was to keep the Air Force under check so they didn't interfere.

01:24:51We demolished those nine camps.

01:24:53We hit those twelve airfields.

01:24:55We hit two in Jacobabad and in Bhavalpur, the two F-16 hangars.

01:25:02How many aircraft were inside?

01:25:03One doesn't know.

01:25:04We've achieved everything.

01:25:05We've achieved what you wanted.

01:25:07And you say five casualties.

01:25:08What five casualties?

01:25:09Do you know that the Battle of Som was fought on the 1st of July, 1916?

01:25:14In one day, how many British soldiers were killed?

01:25:1857,416 in one day on the 1st of July, 1916.

01:25:24That's casualties.

01:25:25Five aeroplanes are not carrying.

01:25:27None of the other five being destroyed.

01:25:29As long as you've achieved what you wanted.

01:25:31Your target.

01:25:32Captain Sahib, that way you're right.

01:25:33You should have stayed in the Army.

01:25:34It's amazing how passionate you are when you talk about the forces,

01:25:37when you talk about operations.

01:25:39You know, when I look at your walls decorated with Army memorabilia,

01:25:43it's just amazing.

01:25:44You're right there.

01:25:45But thank you for taking the time out.

01:25:47Thank you, Priti.

01:25:48And like I said, you know, it's not done.

01:25:50I'm going to come back and closer to elections.

01:25:53Welcome.

01:25:54Closer to elections.

01:25:55And we'll speak again.

01:25:56Yeah, of course.

01:25:57Of course we will.

01:26:00Thank you very much, Priti.

01:26:02Bye-bye.

I am back in the game: Capt Amarinder Singh on Punjab politics, 2027 strategies and more

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