DW spoke with exiled Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya about how her home country's fate and that of Ukraine are intertwined and how both "post-Soviet-Union states" are vital to European security.
00:00Svetlana Tikhanovskaya is the exiled leader of the Belarusian democratic movement and the most prominent challenger to the country's leader, Alexander Lukashenko.
00:09Today she's not just fighting for her country's freedom, she's arguing that Belarus is now central to Europe's security and that the fate of Belarus is tied to that of Ukraine.
00:20Welcome to DW. Let's start with that idea. How do you believe the fates of Belarus and Ukraine are connected?
00:27We have to understand that Belarus and Ukraine are like post-Soviet Union countries and Russia with its improving ambitions doesn't percept neither Belarus nor Ukraine as separate nations, nations that want to choose their future by themselves.
00:45They perceive us as their proxies, as appendixes, you know, satellites. But we are facing this subjugation.
00:55We want to get rid of this Russia's influence on our political aspirations and we want to get rid of this.
01:04So that's why we have, together with Ukrainians, we want to return to European family of countries and just, you know, Russia pulling us back into...
01:13I can see that. I can see how you, as a Belarusian, want to get rid of Russian influence.
01:21But just, just to go back to that point, the idea that if, how does what happens in this war of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, how does that outcome affect your country?
01:35Look, we understand that both our countries are on the front line of fighting against dictatorship, against tyranny.
01:41And, of course, the fate of Ukraine and Belarus and actually the whole Europe is decided now on the battlefields of Ukraine.
01:51When Ukraine wins this war, it will be chance for Belarusians, you know, to change the situation in Belarus.
01:59But also it's vice versa. We understand that without free and democratic Belarus, there will be constant threats to Ukraine as well.
02:07Because while Lukashenko is in power in the country, though he seized this power, it will be...
02:14Belarus can be given to Putin as a launching pad for further attacks, for constant provocations of blackmailing Ukraine.
02:21There will be no peace and security, you know, for the whole region.
02:25So that's why Belarusians precept fights against Russia by Ukrainians as our own fight.
02:31And that is why so many Belarusians are fighting today shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainians.
02:35And you're clear that Belarus has already taken on that role of being a launch pad for Russia into Ukraine.
02:42Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's...
02:43Here we have to divide Lukashenko's regime and Belarusian people.
02:47It was Lukashenko allied to Putin who provided our territory for invasion of Ukraine.
02:53The first missiles have been launched from our territory.
02:57You know, our infrastructure, our soil was given to Russia.
03:01But it was made against the will of Belarusian people.
03:05Belarusians are fully on the side of Ukrainians.
03:08We are anti-war nation. We are pro-Ukrainian nation.
03:11And that's why, of course, Lukashenko has to be punished and brought to accountability for all these war crimes.
03:19Let's talk about what's happening in Ukraine or in and around Ukraine at the moment.
03:24All this diplomatic activity that is going on between Ukraine and Washington, Washington and Russia.
03:30What are you making of what you've been seeing and hearing this week?
03:33Definitely. The peace in Ukraine has to be achieved on ukrainian conditions.
03:40And we see that, you know, the first list of, you know, demands now is being discussed.
03:46And another list has appeared.
03:49So it's a process of discussion.
03:50But, of course, we all want peace in our region.
03:53But we have to make sure that Ukraine will not lose in this war.
03:58Because if we lose Ukraine, it will embolden Russia in their ambitions.
04:05They will not stop in Ukraine.
04:06We have to understand this.
04:08We have to understand that they will threaten Europe.
04:11They will continue to test your borders, you know, the level of your resilience.
04:16We already see balloons over Lithuania, drones over Poland, migration attacks on the borders.
04:21They're, like, testing how far they can go until there will be a reaction from Europe.
04:29The problem of Russia is that they don't know where their borders are.
04:33Who will be the next is the only question if we lose Ukraine.
04:36Let's talk about what's going on in your country at the moment.
04:40There are reports that the Trump administration and Belarus are negotiating the possible release of more than 100 political prisoners in return for the relief of sanctions against Minsk.
04:53Do you see that as a good thing?
04:56Of course, we are grateful to President Trump and his administration and recently appointed Special Envoy John Cole for release of political prisoners.
05:07At the moment, we have 1,300 people behind bars.
05:11So you're glad that the U.S. president is engaging directly with the Lukashenko regime?
05:16Of course, you know, he publicly demanded release of all political prisoners.
05:19We don't have to be confused with this.
05:21It's purely humanitarian track.
05:24President Trump wants people to be released.
05:27He wants to save people's lives.
05:29It's not change of the policy of the USA.
05:31Of course, for Lukashenko, people is bugging in chips.
05:33Lukashenko wants to sell people more expensive.
05:39And, of course, the Americans, you know, lived in some kind of sort of sanctions for these people.
05:47But the Americans are American partners in constant communication and coordination with us, democratic forces.
05:53Really, they're talking to Lukashenko and they're talking to you as well?
05:55Absolutely, yes.
05:56And this is at what sort of level are you engaging with the U.S. administration?
05:59On the same level, John Cole with me in dialogue and Chris Smith, who is from State Department, we are meeting with the representatives of President Trump as well.
06:10So Americans are not naive.
06:12They know whom they are dealing with.
06:14But they put as priority rescuing of people from prisons.
06:19People are dying there and I really encourage them to continue this trek, not changing their policy.
06:25And so as Washington engages with Minsk, should they be pressing for more than just the release of prisoners?
06:33Absolutely, yes.
06:34Americans know our position that at the moment release or it's better to say forceful deportation of Belarusians, it reminds us revolving doors.
06:48Some people are released, twice more are detained.
06:52So this process might be endless for Lukashenko.
06:55So we demand stop of repressions in Belarus.
06:59The changes in our country should be irreversible and systematic.
07:02And here, European Union can play a huge role.
07:06While Americans continue this humanitarian track, these political changes can be supported by European Union.
07:17So no lifting of sanctions from European side, you know, no change of the policy until democratization of Belarus, until free and free elections.
07:25So you want Europe to keep the pressure on Lukashenko, but is there any sign that the pressure that's been applied so far has had any effect?
07:33He's still very much in control.
07:35Look, actually, of course, sanctions are not silver bullets, you know, sanctions don't change, you know, situation, you know, like this.
07:45But it's a very effective instrument to put pressure on Lukashenko to empty pockets, you know, to deprive them resources to support military forces that terrorize Belarusian people.
07:57Of course, sanctions are effective and sanctions are more effective if the sanctions against Russia and Belarusian regime are harmonized for that two dictators cannot use each other to circumvent them.
08:10Can we talk about you and the fact that you are now exiled from your homeland, you're exiled from Belarus.
08:16You're living now mainly in Lithuania.
08:18What does that feel like to know that you cannot go home?
08:23Do you still regard Belarus as home?
08:25Absolutely, yes.
08:26I want to return home and I'm working hard, you know, to bring changes in Belarus.
08:31Maybe you don't know, I was sentenced to 15 years in absentee already and I'm declared as extremist and terrorist by Lukashenko regime.
08:39So I'm target of this regime.
08:41But, of course, I want to, and my children want to return to Belarus and start rebuilding our wonderful country after 30 years of ruining by Lukashenko regime.
08:52You know, of course, we would like to be in Belarus and fight.
08:56But when the level of repression is like in Stalin's time era, you know, it's impossible to do something visible inside the country.
09:03So that's why we have to work from exile.
09:06But we really achieved a lot during these five years.
09:09We managed to build alternative institutions of power.
09:12We managed to formalize relationships.
09:13From outside the country.
09:14From outside.
09:15We managed to formalize relationship with European Union, European Parliament, USA, Canada, UK.
09:21So we are perceived as true representatives.
09:26Legitimate government, right.
09:27Absolutely.
09:28And the countries are working with us, not with illegitimate Lukashenko.
09:32It's de facto recognition, de facto political relationship.
09:38So that's why, you know, and also we are working for changes now.
09:43But we are also working for post-Lukashenko era on reforms, on new constitutions.
09:47Because we'll have to rebuild, you know, everything and to integrate Belarus into European institutions.
09:54Can we finish with your message to the world?
09:56You're out there, you're spreading the word about Belarusian democratization.
10:04What is the thing that you want people outside the country most to know?
10:09I think that people who live in democracy, you know, decades and, you know, many, many years, they start losing this importance of democracy.
10:24And they think that it's like natural, but we have to fight for democracy.
10:29And Belarus is an example, how it's easy to lose what you have and how it's difficult to get it back.
10:36And while you enjoy democracy, it's moral obligation of every nation, every person, you know, to support those who are fighting against dictatorship.
10:44We have to understand that dictatorship in one country can be spilled over, you know, other countries.
10:50It's like cancer, until you cut it to the very last cell, it can go further and further.
10:57So that's why I support those who are in need, support those who are paying the highest price, you know, who sacrifice their freedom and lives for security, for democracy that you enjoy.
11:10Don't think that problems will be solved somehow themselves.
11:14Everybody has to contribute.
11:16Excel, Belarusian opposition leader Svetlana Chikhanovskaya, thank you so much.
Be the first to comment