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¿Sigue vivo el Pacto Verde? Javi López y Hildegard Bentele se enfrentan en The Ring
En este cuarto episodio de The Ring, nos centramos en el controvertido tema del Pacto Verde y debatimos hasta qué punto la UE está unida en cuanto a los objetivos y ambiciones climáticas.
MÁS INFORMACIÓN : http://es.euronews.com/2025/11/27/sigue-vivo-el-pacto-verde-javi-lopez-y-hildegard-bentele-se-enfrentan-en-the-ring
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En este cuarto episodio de The Ring, nos centramos en el controvertido tema del Pacto Verde y debatimos hasta qué punto la UE está unida en cuanto a los objetivos y ambiciones climáticas.
MÁS INFORMACIÓN : http://es.euronews.com/2025/11/27/sigue-vivo-el-pacto-verde-javi-lopez-y-hildegard-bentele-se-enfrentan-en-the-ring
¡Suscríbete a nuestro canal! Euronews está disponible en 12 idiomas
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00:00Hola y bienvenidos a The Ring, Euronews' nuevo debate show broadcasting from the European Parliament in Strasbourg.
00:16Once a week, two elected members of the European Parliament will go face-to-face on some of the most pressing issues for Europe.
00:25And this week, it's The Green Deal, a drag or an opportunity for Europe.
00:32Europe's fight against climate change is at a turning point.
00:36While the 27 officially maintain a unified front on climate, ambition is slipping, targets are under debate and industry-first pressures are mounting.
00:46Recent events underline this tension.
00:49In the European Parliament, the central-right European People's Party joined forces with the far-right groups, Patriots for Europe and the Europe of Sovereign Nations to ease the burden of corporate sustainability.
01:00The result? A balancing act between economic growth and climate responsibility that leads the EU at a crossroads.
01:08Can it still speak with one voice on climate action?
01:15But can the EU keep up a united front on what is now one of the most polarizing topics for Europeans?
01:22That is the question that we will be putting to our contenders.
01:26Let's meet them.
01:30Javi Lopez, vice-president of the European Parliament, member of the Socialist and Democrats group.
01:37A champion of the fair green transition, he believes global warming needs to be addressed immediately.
01:43We must make sure that Europe is on track in a socially just way, he said.
01:49Hildegard Benthele, German member of the European Parliament with the Central-Right European People's Party.
01:58A staunch advocate of slashing bureaucracy, she supports the green transition but not at any cost.
02:05Known for her work on the Critical Materials Act, she once said,
02:09If we are serious about the Green Deal, sustainable sourcing of critical raw materials is part of the solution, certainly not the problem.
02:18Welcome to The Ring and thank you so much for joining us this week.
02:23It's beautiful being in Strasbourg.
02:25We're happy to see you, but of course now let's get to the point of the question and that is the Green Deal.
02:31Hildegard, perhaps we'll start with you.
02:33Is it an opportunity or is it now just simply a drag for this economy?
02:37It is a necessity.
02:39There is no worries.
02:40We have to, as political leaders, we have to look into the future and we decided to implement the Green Deal.
02:47We have to transform it, but we have to stick to it.
02:50When you say we've got to change it, transform it, what does that mean?
02:53That means we have to make out of the Green Deal a green industrial deal.
02:56Because we cannot do it without our industry, with our businesses and they have a hard time at the moment.
03:02Is that something that you hear, we want the Green Deal but we've got to change it?
03:05Well, I agree that this is not only a green agenda, this is also an economic agenda.
03:12In fact, the European Green Deal has to be our path to growth in the future.
03:18And we are sure that the efforts of today will be the competitiveness of tomorrow.
03:23Because the green technology is the race, space race of the 21st century.
03:28But do you believe that the Green Deal can help the European economy?
03:32Because the economy is barely growing and energy is a massive problem for all of the European industry all over the EU.
03:37Yeah, it's true, but then the point is which is the reason.
03:40Why during the last 15 years we are losing the race of competitiveness and our economy that it has to be more dynamic.
03:48And the reason is not the loss that we made during the last 3-4 years.
03:51It's not the Green Deal to blame.
03:52No, it's not over-regulation. The problem is the lack of investment.
03:55And the point is how we should channel better private and public investment.
04:00And this will be our discussion.
04:02Okay, but Madame Bendele, he says it's not the Green Deal. The Green Deal is not to blame for it.
04:07A lot of the industry, however, says you over-regulated too much and there was no industrial plan to go with it.
04:13Was it a mistake? Great idea, badly implemented.
04:16It was not a mistake, but the deal part of the Green Deal was missing.
04:20Because as Javi said, I fully agree, it should be, you know, an idea of growth.
04:25And we should, you know, create new jobs with this new economy we want to build.
04:30But this part has not been fulfilled because the setting is different.
04:34Because we had Covid. Because we have the war in Ukraine.
04:37We have a trade war with Donald Trump.
04:39And we have China, which is much more assertive.
04:41So the environment in which the whole Green Deal is taking place has changed a lot.
04:47And this has put a lot of pressure on the industry.
04:50So how can this be adapted to a 2025 economy? As she mentioned, it's China, it's the United States.
04:56Many issues for the European economy. What needs to change in 2025?
04:59Well, first point. Like, sure, we can do better our laws.
05:03And like the discussions that we have about simplification, I think they are fair enough.
05:08We should try to eliminate administrative burden and overlapping of laws, something that happens sometimes in Europe.
05:17Many times, some would say.
05:18No, this is something that is there. This is first.
05:22Secondly, this is the main reason of the lack of growth in Europe? Not.
05:27Because if we see like the data, and this is the point.
05:31This is not a discussion about ideology.
05:33It's first of all, we have countries in Europe with growth of 2.5, almost 3% in the last years.
05:39Spain is a good example of that.
05:41And with the same regulatory framework in Europe.
05:43But a lot of money coming from the recovery fund.
05:45Yeah, it's true. Investment, because investment is the key. It's not the regulatory framework.
05:50Secondly, and not only that, like our problem was during the last 10 years.
05:56In fact, like the main problem during the last years, it was our dependency of fossil fuels coming from Russia.
06:02And our dependency of our industrial base in the continental Europe coming from the cheap gas coming from Russia.
06:09And like, with more green technology and renewals, we will be able to be more competitive in the world.
06:16Was it Germany's fault?
06:18He talks about a world in which Germany was hooked, an industry on cheap Russian gas.
06:22That has gone out the window now that it's blaming the Green Deal.
06:24But maybe the issue is much deeper.
06:26Germany had a bad economic model.
06:28And we pay for it.
06:30The whole model of the Green Deal depends on cheap, affordable energy.
06:34And we used to have it. And I fully agree. But because of the war, if there was no war, we would still, you know, rely on cheap Russian gas.
06:42And until today, you know, there are new, you know, sourcing, there are new oil and gas, you know, drilling.
06:49So this model continues. But I think it's not wise to continue with it.
06:54But for resilience reasons, but not in terms of price. In terms of price, the high energy prices in Europe are the main obstacle.
07:00What's the solution? Is it simplification? Is it to simplify even more?
07:04Well, this is one part. Of course, we have to look at the legal requirements, which are not feasible, which are not economically viable.
07:10I fully agree. But we have to look into the real problems, which is energy prices and which is also, you know, investment.
07:17I agree. But we have a problem because we have not unlimited budgets because we had a resilience and recovery fund, which, you know, for the first time the European Union indebted itself.
07:26And now we have, again, the problem that budgets are shrinking. And we have, you know, the challenge to invest into our defense industry.
07:35So there's less money left for measures supporting the industry.
07:39All the time at the same time. Do you agree? The issues we don't have money in Europe to invest?
07:44Well, I think our problem is not only like public budget. Our problem is also private investment, because one of the main problems that we had is during the last year's private savings were like channel to American investments because there they can find more profits.
08:02This was something that happened. And then why? Because we have a fragmented financial system in Europe.
08:08We don't have a banking union. We don't have a saving unions like we should need to consolidate a space in Europe to channel like private investments.
08:20This is something that we need because it's not only like about public. But my point here is like our problems are deeper than regulatory burden.
08:28It's deeper than the Green Deal because this is a hot topic. It's a toxic question for a lot of Europeans.
08:33Yeah, but it will be really easy if we changing like three or four laws that we made during the last Monday that we are solving our competitiveness problems.
08:43And to be honest, laws that they didn't enter into force, they cannot be explained by our problems.
08:49But some argue the targets are an issue, the 2040, the 2050, sending a very stringent industry or signal to the industry.
08:56Do you believe, Madame Bantala, that these targets, they are no longer relevant?
09:00They are relevant because we have set their direction and we don't want to change.
09:03You don't want to change them. No, no. But we have to see.
09:05I mean, we just had, you know, the COP30 conference and we see the global competition and we can see China, which is, you know, the biggest emitter.
09:13And they don't set themselves as targets. You know, they follow the industry, the technology, how fast they can develop technology.
09:20And then they, you know, formulate their targets. So they do it the other way around.
09:24And I think we have to pay attention to this setting. And we cannot do it alone because we are representing 9% of the global population and our industry even less.
09:33So we have to adapt, you know.
09:35You're saying no. I can hear you going no.
09:37Our point is, like, we don't have to be fetish with the instruments, but we have to be clear with the goals.
09:44And this is something that we share here and we share in the parliament. Our point is, like, to have predictability and certainty in the rules that we are doing, especially to ensuring that we have enough investment.
09:58But China, India, the U.S., they did not show up to the COP and they do not have those targets. Are we doing too much?
10:03It's a fair question. But OK, we can talk about China if you want. China, the 50% of the cars that they are selling in the in the in the in their market, the 50% they are electric electric cars.
10:16They are doing the 90 percent, 90 percent of the batteries or the solar panels in the world.
10:21They're coming here. A lot of they are coming here like they are doing more than us in terms of green technology.
10:27Like the point is, we are be ready to compete in the world that it's coming.
10:32This is the question. And for to do that, we need predictability and our regulatory framework that helps and accompany the private sector because they need help on this transformation.
10:42But makes predictable what we are going to do the next 10, 15 years.
10:46I got a final question on this point, however, and it's political and you are politicians.
10:50The pushback to the Green Deal at times seems to be part of the cultural war.
10:55Some believe that green has gone too woke. Is that something that you consider? Has green become too woke? Is that a valid question?
11:02This is not what the EPP considers, but we have to see the result of the elections.
11:05And we have now three groups in the parliament which are pushing back, which do not believe that climate change exists.
11:12And that's what we can feel, of course, but what we need is more flexibility.
11:16This is all what I want to say.
11:17Well, let me stop you out right there for a second.
11:19And of course, the show is called The Ring.
11:21So it is time to take the gloves off.
11:28Now, you both are elected to ask tough questions to each other.
11:32Obviously, your constituencies and the voters who put you here in this hemicycle expect that.
11:37So now this will be an opportunity to ask questions you can ask Javi and Javi will ask you.
11:42And I want to hear, you know, the punch that you have.
11:45We'll start with you.
11:46My main concern is the industry.
11:47So my question to you, Javi, is do you agree that we have to transform the Green Deal in a green industrial deal?
11:53That we have to take into consideration the situation of the industry and help it to become green?
11:59Yeah, my answer will be, of course, no, the European Green Deal has to be our strategy to growth and to create competitiveness of tomorrow.
12:09And we are sure that the race for the space race of the 21st century, it will be the green technology.
12:18And we have to be sure that we are accompanying the private sector and the industries in this massive transformation.
12:26And your question?
12:27The Green Deal is alive here in the European Parliament.
12:33It is alive, but we have to adapt it.
12:36I'm very sure because there are new concerns of the people, as I've seen.
12:41And if you look in the State of the Union speech of Ursula von der Leyen, she has also changed her focus.
12:46She put forward defense, housing, so more the daily concerns of people because they are, you know, cannot cope with living costs.
12:53So the concerns have changed.
12:55So I think the Green Deal, I mean, it's our responsibility to still work on it.
12:59But I agree with you, you know, with regard to citizens, the priorities have changed.
13:04Why is the APP, if you align me one second, why is the APP working with parties and groups that believe climate change is not real then?
13:10We don't work with them.
13:11So what are the votes that we're seeing in which there's two majorities?
13:14You can either work with the progressives or a form of hard right?
13:17Well, we always first try to work in the platform and only if we do not come to results or if the Social Democrats are not reliable in the plenary vote,
13:29then we just work on our content.
13:32We never work with the far right.
13:34We work with the EZR, but we never work with the far right.
13:36If they agree with our proposals, that's not our concern.
13:40The APP is not working with the far right?
13:42Well, the EPP now, and this was a change in European politics, made majorities with the far right to pass legislation.
13:54This was what happened with the Omnibus One.
13:56And I think this is problematic not only on the content.
13:59And I think the discussion, it should not be only on the content because it's normalizing the position of the far right in European politics.
14:09And it will have consequence in medium long term also for the EPP in my view.
14:14And to that point, can you clarify what is the position of the EPP?
14:18There's a lot of confusion.
14:19This is now a group that is willing to pick and choose in some files.
14:23You're willing to work with people that four years ago you would have never worked with.
14:26This is not true because we take most of the decision with the platform.
14:30And it's the left side who is also making decisions with the far right on other issues.
14:35But as I said, we always, as a first option, work with the platform only if we are deceived.
14:40And if we are very much convinced that these measures are urgent and these measures on Omnibus were urgent,
14:46I would have been killed back home if I couldn't bring a result from this vote.
14:49And we had to repeat the vote because we first tried with the Social Democrats and we knew.
14:54She's making an excellent point.
14:56It's urgent.
14:57Could you give more leeway?
14:58Are you being too tough precisely to accuse him of being at work with the far right?
15:03We are being really constructive on these discussions on simplification.
15:07And the reality is we are not blocking any file and any decision.
15:12We are saying, like, we can discuss how to simplify, like, legislation in Europe.
15:17But my point is, like, the main problem is, like, the only discussions that we are having here in Europe is about simplification.
15:25And we will not fix our economic problems only with simplification.
15:29What we can do?
15:30We can discuss to have a deeper single market.
15:33This is something that Draghi and Letta says in the reports, to deepen the single market.
15:37We have a lot of sectors where we have problems on fragmentation.
15:40We should work on that.
15:42And if we work on these areas, sure, automatically it will be like the centrist majority.
15:46But it's not happening automatically.
15:48And the EPP did win the European elections with that agenda.
15:51So some would argue you should move.
15:53It's not for the EPP to move.
15:54No, like, we don't have to move.
15:56What we have to do is represent our voters.
15:58This is how politics works.
16:00And, like, represent our voters and their agenda.
16:02It's up to them if they want to win elections or not.
16:04And if they want to still be relevant or not.
16:06Yeah, yeah.
16:07Like, we have to represent our voters with the best will of to have compromises and to build things together.
16:13But we will, and the problem is, like, we will not fix our problems.
16:17Like, when they say, okay, green agenda is too work.
16:20Like, the climate is too work.
16:21Like, the extreme events that we are seeing, especially in the south of Europe.
16:26We can tell to the people that it's dying when we have summers with too hot or when we have drops during winter.
16:34Like, to be honest, this is not about work agenda.
16:38This is about reality and adapt to a new reality and adapt to a new economy in the world.
16:44And this is what we are trying to do.
16:46But it's also true that, you know, industry is complaining for a long time over too much reporting, too much legal requirement.
16:52And I think we cannot close our eyes because we have to do both.
16:55We have to, you know, alleviate the bureaucratic burden.
16:58And we are now in November.
17:00And the first omnibus was presented in January.
17:03So I think it's high time to deliver back home.
17:05But we should also do the other thing.
17:07But we should not neglect, you know, and listen to the industry.
17:10Because if you just do politics from Brussels and not listen to the stakeholders, we will lose them.
17:14The industry says either this happens or you're going to put a lot of people out of business.
17:18We are going to continue.
17:19But first, let me stop you here for one second because I want to bring in another voice.
17:28Now, Antonio Guterres, the Secretary General of the United Nations, spoke at the plenary in Belen.
17:35President Lula of Brazil said, well, COP30 is the moment of truth.
17:40It is the moment of the hard truth.
17:42And the hard truth is that we have failed to ensure that we remain below 1.5 degrees.
17:47This is a moral failure and a deadly negligence.
17:52These are very tough words from Antonio Guterres.
17:55I was struck by the brutality of the words.
17:57This is more negligence?
17:59Well, I feel that the world is not doing enough.
18:02But at the same time, I feel proud that Europe is working in the right direction.
18:07And we are doing efforts.
18:08We are making efforts in the right direction.
18:10The European Green Deal and all the difficulties that we have with that is a good example that we are pushing in the right direction the things.
18:18Well, emissions in Europe is an example.
18:20We were able to decrease 37 percent the emissions in Europe.
18:25We have clear targets for 2030 and for 2040.
18:29We shoot up.
18:30What we get in return is that this is moral negligence and this is deadly negligence.
18:34Is this kind of language useful?
18:36Well, I'm not so sure about that either.
18:39And I think also, you know, Brazil has a moral obligation.
18:42And they want, you know, different things.
18:44They want to protect their rainforest but at the same time they want to drill oil.
18:48So, I mean, they are also playing on many cards.
18:50So, I think we should be more moderate with each other and see the progress we can achieve together.
18:57I feel the Europeans always get blamed and they got to pay the tab.
19:00Why is that happening?
19:01Well, because I think we are front runners.
19:03I mean, you know, we were very clear that we want to tackle the problem and we are leading to a certain extent.
19:10I mean, this is true.
19:11We have a responsibility.
19:12We've taken it.
19:13Oh, it's the Paris Agreement.
19:14So, it was made in Europe.
19:15And the reality is the reality.
19:17And I understand the Gutierrez words on that sense.
19:20The reality is we are arriving to a point that it will be impossible to accomplish the goal of the Paris Agreement of 1.5 degrees of increase.
19:29It's impossible.
19:30It's almost impossible.
19:32We are moving to a world that probably we will have two, three degrees of increase of temperatures.
19:41And we're going to continue with the implications.
19:43But first, let's take a short break here on The Ring.
19:46But stay with us because we will be back very soon with more political punch.
19:51Stay on The Ring.
19:52Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' new weekly show.
20:04I'm joined by MEPs Javi Lopet and Hildegard Bentele.
20:09And the idea here is to bring the European Parliament's debate to your couch.
20:13So, what about you?
20:15What do you think about the efforts when it comes to combating climate change?
20:20And according to the Eurobarometer, more than 8 in 10 EU citizens believe it is urgent to take action, while 38% feel personally exposed to climate-related risks.
20:33Also, 79% believe that more public financial support should be invested on the prevention and the transition to clean energy.
20:45Are you surprised by the numbers? It seems there is really broad consensus. This is something Europeans really want.
20:50Well, this is a bit abstract, you know, when it comes to renovate your house, to, you know, change your heating, when it comes to buy electric core, when it comes to buy a product which has recycled materials and it's a bit more expensive, you know, then, you know, attitudes change.
21:05So, the proof is in the pudding, you know, if other consumers are really willing to embrace these new products and if they're also ready to, you know, if their job is lost, are they ready to move to a different job in the new economy?
21:20But if we say, and here's the thing, we use very strong language, saying this is deadly negligence, the temperature will go up by 3 to 4, this is going to be a help for the southern Europeans.
21:30And then we go, well, we need to work and figure out if we can get to an agreement, maybe they say one thing but vote a different one.
21:36I feel there's a massive gap between the language, the results that we played and some of the actions that we debate here.
21:43Well, to be honest, sometimes I feel that we have to do more and here at the European level, everything is slow and sometimes frustrating.
21:53It's true, with the green agenda and with more elements. At the same time, I can say we are moving in the right direction.
21:59We are the block in the world that we are doing better on that. We are able now to decrease our emissions and at the same time growth and deliver growth during the last years.
22:11And the problem and the point, it's not about the green agenda. The point is the model of prosperity of Europe is sober.
22:18The model of prosperity based on cheap and easy energy coming from Russia, security cheap and easy coming from United States and products cheap and easy coming from China.
22:29This model of growth over the last 30 years is over and we have to rebuild it.
22:33And a part of this rebuilding of this new construction of prosperity, it will be green agenda.
22:39But this green agenda is the problem. And again, I try to make sense of the poll that we played that brought support with the fights that we see day in and day out in this parliament.
22:49Is the issue perhaps with all due respect, the politicians and the politics, you're doing too much politics around the question of green?
22:55No, no, I don't think so. But I think it's too much politics.
22:58I don't think so. No, no. But I think the problem is, you know, it's a problem which is in the future.
23:02I mean, we feel some effects of climate change, but not yet that strong.
23:06We know what will happen if the tipping points, you know, play in.
23:09But at the same time, we have to see that we are lagging behind because our, you know, the change comes too late because we have missed some very crucial developments in industry policy.
23:20So we have lost advantage to China and it's not possible to keep up with it anymore.
23:26We will lag behind. We will, you know, assemble the curse of the Chinese.
23:30And the Chinese don't just copy. They innovate. They are innovating.
23:33They have good quality in the meantime and they are very strong and very dominant and very big.
23:37It changes everything in a way for Europe. But now, of course, it is time to move on.
23:42We'll continue on this, but we do want to get to the fifth and final round. Are you ready?
23:51Now it's time for something different. And I'm going to ask you, we've done a lot of chit chatting, talking, debating hard on the stage.
23:59But I want to move on to yes or no questions. Let's see if it's doable, but I'll try my best.
24:05And I want to start with this one, perhaps with you. Well, when it comes to 2050 net zero, is that still realistic?
24:13Yes, it's a binding, not only realistic.
24:16Binding and realistic could be two things. Do you believe it's realistic climate neutrality by 2050?
24:21These are two different things. No.
24:25Well, it's not realistic. It's a no. It's binding, but it's not realistic.
24:31Voila. Let's go into wealthier nations. Should they be paying more? That means the EU should pay more?
24:38Yes. Internationally? Yes, no. Yes. And this is an international consensus on climate diplomacy.
24:45That the wealthier countries, we pay more because we emit more during the last century.
24:51Yes, no. Yes, no. Should we pay more wealthy countries? No. No.
24:54What about red tape? Should we continue to cut red tape more aggressively? Yes.
24:59Should we continue to cut red tape? Yes or no? More aggressively?
25:04Maybe we have to ensure this process.
25:10Can simplification, however, coexist? And just to remind our viewers, simplification is to strip back some of the red tape around green policies.
25:19Can that coexist really with green protections? From the outside seems a contradiction. Yes or no? Yes.
25:25Yes, but simplification is simplification, not just regulation. The regulation. And this is something that sometimes here, when we are talking about simplification, it's not simplification.
25:36Okay. Is the Paris Agreement still valid? It should. Yes or no? Yes.
25:42The Paris Agreement is still valid? It's valid, but we have not met the targets.
25:46Just finally, should farmers be rewarded for sustainable agricultural prices? Yes or no?
25:52For sure. Should they continue to be rewarded? Yes.
25:55Yes. And just lastly, when it comes to international support, do you believe India, China and the U.S., all of which skipped COP, are they still allies when it comes to international climate policies? Yes or no?
26:07Should be, because we cannot find another one. The planet is formed with the countries that we are.
26:13India, China, the U.S., competing very hard. Are they still allies on this matter?
26:18All, but U.S., not on the federal level, but on the states level. They are very present.
26:23And we're now reaching the end of the show, and here's the question. We've had a great debate, but were you convinced by your opponent?
26:29It's called the ring, of course. Were you convinced?
26:32Well, we continue to work together. I think we are the center, the both of us, and it's our responsibility to make the green deal, the green industrial deal happen.
26:42Yes. I think that we have difference, but at the same time, we have a common space, and we have to work on that common space.
26:49Because if we are not able to have common solutions together, it will be the far right who will impose their agenda for the next years in the U.S.
26:57Okay, so for the Omnibus, the next one, it's on TV. It's caught here. You will work together based on this. I mean, it's got to be.
27:04Yeah. Let's take hands on that.
27:07This is on tape, and we're going to keep an eye on this.
27:10Well, thank you so much to the two of you, of course, for joining us, Hildegard and Javi.
27:15Thank you so much. And it's been great, obviously, to share this time with you.
27:19And on that note, we want to hear from you. What about you?
27:22Do you believe the green transition, green policies is still good for Europe, an opportunity or a drag?
27:28Please write to The Ring at Euronews.com. We want to hear your views. See you very soon.
27:35And of course, back again on The Ring on Euronews. Thank you very much.
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