00:00Well, we're going to talk more about this subject. And to do that, we're joined now on the line from Abuja in Nigeria by Iza Sanuzi, who is country director of the Human Rights Group Amnesty International for Nigeria.
00:14First of all, welcome to the programme, Iza Sanuzi. Thank you so much for joining us to discuss this. We appreciate it. You know, we heard there from our correspondent something about this latest spate of kidnappings.
00:32I think for people outside Nigeria, it is very difficult to understand how has this phenomenon come about? You talked about money there. Are there multiple reasons? Is it money? Is it for child brides? Is it for ideological reasons? What's your view from what you've seen?
00:51Well, if you look at it generally, you realize that the whole thing is about utter failure of the Nigerian authorities to protect lives, especially in the rural areas where these abductions take place.
01:07They don't take place in the cities and the capitals and the towns. They only take place in the rural areas, vulnerable areas where there is no presence of governance, where there is no authority.
01:22Therefore, people with guns are taking advantage of the weakness of the state to perpetrate these crimes.
01:29Their motives are multiple and are different. Mostly they do it for ransom and some do it to assert their power, to show that they can do whatever they like and get away with it.
01:43And some do it, particularly for girls, to get them into forced marriage and they even have multiple children with them at the end of the day.
01:53And those who resisted are either killed or injured or disabled completely.
02:00So they have so many motives. But at the head of all this is clearly the fact that if the Nigerian government could not protect lives and they could not protect villages and rural areas,
02:13it means that no school can be safe because these schools are located in communities.
02:18And whenever they come and attack a school, also the village has to be deserted because they may likely come back and attack people as well.
02:28And, you know, I think a lot of our viewers will remember back in 2014 when those hundreds of schoolgirls were kidnapped from Chibok.
02:38And there was an international outcry. There was an international outcry. There was the campaign to bring back the girls.
02:44Many of them are still there in the woods in Nigeria. Some escaped. Some got out.
02:52Are you saying that since then virtually nothing has been done to improve security?
02:58Well, things are actually deteriorating. They are not getting better because if you look at it at that time in 2014,
03:07we only have one well-known insurgent group, which is Boko Haram.
03:13But we now have like three or four other insurgent groups carrying heavy arms and operating across northern Nigeria.
03:22Therefore, things are deteriorating because if things are improving, there wouldn't be multiplication or emergence of other new groups.
03:32And based on Amnesty International's investigation, we realized that in the case of Chibok in 2014
03:40and the abduction in Dapchi School in New Obe State in 2018,
03:45we found out that security lapses were the reasons why the gunmen were able to abduct these children.
03:53And this cannot be ruled out even now.
03:56And this shows that there is no accountability in terms of security lives and property in Nigeria.
04:02And if this continues, education will be impossible for millions and millions of children in northern Nigeria.
04:10Now, of course, a couple of weeks back, Donald Trump intervened in this issue.
04:16He framed it as a persecution of Christians.
04:21The fact is, I think that most of this, as you say, happens where the Islamist insurgency is in the north.
04:26There are many Muslim children there.
04:28So it also those who have just been rescued today, I think, were mostly Muslim children.
04:34So it does happen to both.
04:36But what has his intervention?
04:38He said publicly that he was considering perhaps Washington intervening in Nigeria to sort this out.
04:45That seems very unlikely.
04:46But have his words had any effect on the president of Nigeria?
04:50Well, I will not say that what Donald Trump has said has made any impact.
04:59But it may possibly be because immediately after his pronouncements, which were not based on facts and which were just a little bit or more or less exaggerated estimation of the situation in Nigeria,
05:15immediately after that, we see multiple attacks, spread of attacks, multiplying.
05:23It may not be related, but definitely the reckless statement by American politicians about what is going on in Nigeria contributes a lot to creating more division and more mistrust among Nigerians.
05:39And that is one of the reasons why these armed groups are succeeding and are carrying out their activities without any hindrance across the country.
05:49Is there much that the wider world can do over this?
05:53There was, as I said, when the Chibok kidnappings happened, there was quite a big campaign.
05:59It didn't seem to have much effect.
06:03It seems that Boko Haram and other Islamist insurgents carry on unbothered by international disgust at these acts.
06:22Well, you know, Nigeria is a sovereign country.
06:25And we always believe that Nigeria has the capacity and ability and resources to deal with this situation.
06:32It's just a matter of doing the right thing at the right time.
06:36But despite that, we believe that it may not be wrong for international organizations and countries, foreign countries, to look at the situation and help the country to overcome this problem.
06:51It is quite clear that the government is overwhelmed because the security challenges facing the country right now are overwhelming.
06:59No country can be able to handle these things effectively, no matter how resourceful it is.
07:06Therefore, it is very important that the global nations pay attention to what is going on in Nigeria because it will have ripple effect on the whole of West Africa and the rest of the world.
07:18Because as I told you earlier, we have the emergence of another insurgent group called Lakurawa in northern Nigeria.
07:26We have another one called Mahmouda, which have not been around in the last even two years.
07:31Therefore, the possibility is when this thing happens and these criminal gangs and insurgents see the opportunity that comes with abducting children, they will continue to do it again and again.
07:43Right now, because of this situation, over 20,000 schools have been closed down and some of them may not open at all.
07:52Therefore, the impact is very huge and I believe that the world should be paying attention to what is going on in Nigeria.
07:58Well, I'm afraid we're out of time now.
08:02Thank you so much for your time, Isa Sanusi, the country director there of the Human Rights Group Amnesty International, country director for Nigeria.
Be the first to comment