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From printing press to Digital Age, technological advances spark 'profound social unrest'
FRANCE 24 English
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00:00
The era we're living in is the information crisis, an epoch where we're overwhelmed with facts and fakes
00:07
that both fill our world with new, sometimes beautiful ideas, but also fear and anger.
00:12
That's according to a new book which notes that it is not the world's first information crisis, but rather our third.
00:18
Don't burn anyone at the stake today and other lessons from history about living through an information crisis
00:22
is by Naomi Alderman, who joins us now to help us figure out potentially how to live through this current crisis.
00:29
Naomi Alderman, thanks for your time and joining us on France 24.
00:32
Firstly, can I ask you to talk us through your premise for this book?
00:35
It's the world's third information crisis.
00:37
So how does this one compare with, say, when writing was invented or indeed the printing press?
00:44
Right, so we can look back through history and we can see that after the printing press was invented,
00:50
indeed there were wonderful, beautiful things that happened in the world,
00:54
and we're all very pleased, I think, probably that the Enlightenment happened.
00:57
But at the same time, it's pretty well established by historians that the invention of the printing press
01:05
was what caused the Reformation, which caused, in France and around Europe,
01:11
the burnings at the stake of hundreds of people.
01:15
Catholics burned Protestants, Protestants burned Catholics,
01:17
people who had previously felt that those around them were sort of roughly in agreement
01:23
on most of the things that seemed important to them.
01:27
Suddenly, with this huge tidal wave of information, which came in the form of books,
01:33
in the form of pamphlets, pamphlets being the sort of original social media,
01:38
suddenly people became very overwhelmed by information.
01:42
It made them very anxious, made them very angry.
01:45
People tended then to form thinker-like groups where they just wanted to be around other people
01:52
who had the same views as them.
01:54
And we can see the traces of that same type of psychological process
01:59
happening in the world around us right now.
02:01
When I worked this out, so I just finished a Master's in Classics,
02:05
where I was also looking at what happened after the invention of writing.
02:09
So, obviously, it's harder to know what happened before writing
02:13
because they couldn't write it down.
02:15
But certainly, we know that, for example,
02:19
the invention of particularly phonetic script,
02:21
that is where every symbol makes a sound,
02:24
causes societies, mostly, to become less respectful towards the elderly.
02:31
Right, why does that happen?
02:32
Because before you have writing,
02:35
if you want to know what happened 60 years ago,
02:40
you need to find a 70-year-old person.
02:42
If you want to know where was the safe place to shelter
02:45
the last time the river burst its banks,
02:48
and maybe the river last burst its banks 40 years ago,
02:51
you're going to have to find someone who's 50 or older to tell you what happened.
02:54
Once you can write it down, that's much more secure.
02:57
But it also leads to a devaluing of other human beings
03:01
who previously were the repositories of knowledge for us.
03:05
So, these are the patterns that we can see.
03:08
We can see that when these technologies of information dispersal
03:12
increase quite suddenly within a generation,
03:15
you often get very profound social unrest.
03:19
And having spotted this pattern, I thought,
03:22
oh, I have to tell everybody.
03:23
I have to sort of grab the world by the lapels and go,
03:27
it's all right.
03:28
Everyone around you hasn't gone bananas.
03:30
We have been through this before.
03:32
It is indeed very reassuring to think that humans
03:35
have had similar reactions in the past,
03:37
because indeed, especially after the printing press,
03:39
what you're describing,
03:40
seems very much to mirror what we're living through today
03:43
and that dividing into groups.
03:45
So, one wonders then,
03:46
how did things calm down again at that time?
03:49
And, you know, when might we start to do it and how?
03:51
Right. So, when we think about what had to happen
03:56
after the invention of the printing press
03:58
in order to get to the Enlightenment,
04:00
that new flowering of scientific knowledge and discovery,
04:04
when we really think about it,
04:06
what we realised had to happen
04:07
was that we needed, well, three things.
04:11
We had to have laws that prevented people
04:14
from telling absolute lies using printed media.
04:17
So, we had to have laws against libel,
04:20
laws that said that if you were reading
04:23
a particular thing,
04:24
somebody had to have checked
04:25
whether what was in it was true.
04:28
We also had to have new technologies.
04:32
So, I'm talking about things like
04:33
the invention of the index and the contents page
04:36
and the textbook.
04:38
Somebody had to invent it.
04:40
Petrus Aramud, who lived in Paris,
04:42
was the person who came up with the idea
04:45
that you would have a book which had essentially
04:47
a textbook, is a book that is written
04:50
by someone who's read 500, 1,000 books
04:53
in the subject and then can lead you through it.
04:56
So, we had to have ways of being guided
04:58
through that information.
04:59
And I think right now,
05:01
as we can see from the constant scrolling,
05:05
there isn't really a way to go,
05:07
here is the critical information
05:09
and now you can turn it off.
05:11
And we also needed new social norms.
05:15
So, we needed thoughts about,
05:17
all right, what are the right ways
05:19
to interact with text?
05:20
How do I decide what to believe
05:22
and what is untrue?
05:24
This also works with the technologies,
05:28
for example, of the invention
05:30
of the system of scientific journals
05:32
and peer review,
05:33
where you go, all right, there are systems
05:35
which mean that I know I can absolutely trust
05:38
that if I'm reading this,
05:39
it's definitely correct.
05:41
And if I'm reading this thing
05:43
that I picked up on a park bench,
05:44
that might just be nonsense.
05:47
And for now, on the internet,
05:50
a lot of those systems don't really exist yet.
05:53
They exist in print,
05:54
which I think is helpful for us.
05:57
I think people understand
05:58
that if you're watching something on France 24,
06:00
that has more likelihood of being correct
06:03
than a random video on TikTok,
06:06
which might have been created by Sora or whatever.
06:09
So, I find it hopeful
06:10
that those systems haven't completely broken down.
06:13
And if we can find ways to make sure
06:16
that those systems then exist
06:18
within the wider internet,
06:20
I think we will be in a better place.
06:22
But we are going to have to call for that using laws
06:25
and also enforce the laws
06:27
that we already have much more strictly
06:29
on the internet
06:30
in order to get ourselves through this.
06:33
Indeed, there just seems to be a need
06:35
for that will to put laws in place
06:37
at the same speed
06:38
with which technology is developing.
06:40
But speed is something
06:40
that I feel could come against us.
06:43
So, I feel a lot of people want
06:44
to go so fast
06:45
when it comes to information
06:46
and even achieving skills
06:48
or commenting,
06:49
which a lot of your book talks about,
06:51
on what they see online.
06:52
I mean, is that where humans
06:54
maybe need to take a breath
06:55
in order to live better
06:56
through this crisis?
06:58
I mean, I certainly don't think
07:00
that the only answer is,
07:02
as people say,
07:03
personal responsibility
07:04
because I do think
07:05
that we need better laws,
07:07
better governments.
07:07
I mean, I think the EU
07:08
is in an amazing place
07:09
to push back against
07:10
the technology companies
07:12
that are absolutely trying
07:14
to addict people
07:15
to false, bad information.
07:17
But having said that,
07:19
I think the idea
07:20
of being able to say,
07:22
OK, this information crisis
07:24
is going to be going on
07:26
for the rest of our lives,
07:28
the rest of my life,
07:29
the rest of your life,
07:30
the rest of the viewers' lives.
07:32
And therefore,
07:34
one of the questions
07:35
one can ask oneself is,
07:37
how do I want to have lived
07:39
during this period of history?
07:41
Given, you know,
07:42
probably our descendants
07:43
are going to be able
07:44
to have quite a lot of information
07:46
about what we did.
07:48
And those thoughts,
07:49
which I put into the book,
07:50
about saying to ourselves,
07:52
all right,
07:53
if I find something
07:54
on the internet
07:55
that seems incredibly calculated
07:58
to push my own buttons,
08:01
to make me feel angry
08:03
in exactly the way
08:05
that is going to really
08:06
most enrage me,
08:07
to upset me
08:08
or to make me feel
08:10
very, very frightened
08:11
or even to make me delighted
08:12
in the way that I love
08:13
being delighted.
08:14
If I come across
08:15
something like that,
08:17
maybe that is the moment
08:18
to just take a pause.
08:19
Instead of retweeting it
08:21
or reposting it,
08:22
to say,
08:23
ah,
08:24
this thing that is
08:25
specially targeted
08:26
towards me
08:27
that has made me feel
08:29
these strong emotions,
08:31
I need to check
08:32
whether that is true or not.
08:34
This would be
08:35
a very helpful social norm
08:36
and a very helpful thing
08:37
to teach children.
08:39
I mean,
08:39
this is another
08:40
very important question
08:42
because right now
08:44
there are very few safeguards
08:45
on the big fire hose
08:48
of the internet.
08:48
It is often quite hard
08:51
to know how to give children
08:53
safe access to the internet
08:54
in a way that is going
08:55
to enable them
08:56
to learn how to behave.
08:58
And I do think
08:59
that it is probably
09:00
quite a helpful plan
09:02
for parents
09:03
to show their children
09:05
what they are doing
09:06
when they are scrolling
09:07
and making decisions
09:08
about this is how I decide
09:10
whether this is true or not.
09:12
This is how I decide
09:14
how to respond.
09:14
Look,
09:15
this is something
09:16
that has made me angry
09:17
and instead
09:19
I'm putting it down.
09:22
These are different questions
09:24
to,
09:24
oh,
09:24
we don't have phones
09:25
at mealtimes,
09:25
which is also a great strategy,
09:27
but also to be modelling
09:28
how to behave online
09:30
to children
09:31
rather than just going
09:32
keep them away
09:33
from social media
09:34
until they are 16
09:35
or 18
09:36
and then just let them loose.
09:38
So instead of making that
09:39
part of parenting conversations.
09:42
Interesting
09:42
and not burying
09:43
our head in the sands
09:44
when it comes to all this
09:45
new technology,
09:45
which I think a lot of us
09:46
potentially might like.
09:47
But one of the suggestions
09:48
you give also
09:49
is to ignore the opinions
09:51
of others.
09:52
I'm hearing that
09:52
when you speak about it online,
09:54
I can hear the logic.
09:55
But how much do you think
09:56
this is petering down
09:57
to people's communications
09:59
in everyday life?
10:00
I mean,
10:00
do we nearly risk?
10:01
I feel like people
10:02
have become so angry now,
10:03
quick to anger,
10:04
if you like,
10:05
that do we run the risk
10:06
of being able to hold
10:07
healthy debate in society?
10:08
I definitely think
10:11
that the skill
10:13
of sitting round a table
10:15
and having a conversation
10:16
is a vital skill
10:18
for the next 50 years.
10:21
Just to be able to go,
10:23
we have different views,
10:25
we're not going to agree,
10:27
but I can respect the reasons
10:29
that you hold those views.
10:30
So to me,
10:31
there is a really important
10:32
distinction
10:33
between disagreeing
10:35
and treating people poorly.
10:37
You do not have to treat
10:38
somebody poorly
10:39
just because you disagree
10:40
with them.
10:41
And if you think about
10:42
what has happened
10:43
since the print revolution,
10:46
since the reformation,
10:47
indeed,
10:48
although people,
10:49
a lot of people
10:50
got burned at the stake,
10:51
there are still Protestants
10:53
and there are still Catholics.
10:55
And therefore,
10:56
we do have to just
10:57
sort of work out
10:58
how to be able
11:00
to talk to one another
11:01
in some healthy way.
11:02
So when I say in the book,
11:05
I'm increasingly,
11:07
I am not very interested
11:09
in opinions
11:10
and much more interested
11:11
in emotions,
11:12
which is to say
11:14
if somebody feels strongly
11:15
about a particular opinion
11:18
that they hold,
11:19
I'm very interested to know
11:20
what other life circumstances
11:22
that have led them to that.
11:25
I'm very interested to know
11:26
why this strikes
11:27
such a chord with them,
11:28
what it's bringing up for them.
11:30
These are all stories
11:30
about who that person is
11:32
that can enable me
11:33
to understand the world better.
11:35
If somebody is not an expert
11:36
in a particular subject,
11:38
I don't think I probably
11:39
need to take their opinion
11:40
very seriously.
11:41
And the same applies to me,
11:43
by the way.
11:44
The reason that I can talk
11:46
about this is because
11:46
I've done my degrees in it,
11:49
but a lot of what I think
11:51
is about feelings.
11:53
Naomi Alderman,
11:53
unfortunately,
11:54
we'll have to leave it there,
11:55
but thank you so much
11:55
for joining us here
11:56
on France 24.
11:57
Very much appreciated.
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