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In this exclusive interview, Air Marshal Anil Chopra (Retd.) addresses and debunks prevalent theories surrounding the tragic Tejas crash at the Dubai Airshow. He provides expert insights into the capabilities of the Tejas fighter jet, the role of its engine, and if weather conditions could have played a role. Understand the complexities of test flying, the challenges of flying demos, and what the investigation could reveal about this unfortunate incident.
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NewsTranscript
00:00I have with me Air Marshal Anil Chopra. He's a highly distinguished and decorated veteran of
00:15the Indian Air Force. He has an illustrious career behind him of over four decades. He was
00:20the flying instructor and also the test pilot. He was also among the pilots in the first patch
00:26which actually went to France to get a training on Mirage aircraft. He came back and he also
00:31gave training to the other pilots. So, he also served as a Director General at the Centre for
00:35Air Power Studies in New Delhi. Thank you so much Air Marshal Chopra for speaking with AsiaNet News.
00:41Thank you Hina. Always a pleasure to join and I know it has been an extremely tragic, unfortunate
00:48accident in a foreign soil with the indigenous aircraft single engine fighter. The program,
00:54which is going extremely well till now has a high safety record. The pilot was a very,
01:00very professional pilot who had been specially selected, trained and had practiced aerobatic
01:08maneuvers and displayed profile for many, many times. And we lost a brave soldier. Our condolences
01:15and salute to the family. As an Indian, this is very disgusting and very disheartening for me
01:20that a lot of people and most of them Pakistani handles are actually exploiting this tragic incident
01:27which happened yesterday at the Dubai air show. And they are talking about how Tejas crashed and
01:32trying to hurt the credibility of the aircraft. Now, I want to talk about the JF-17. This is one
01:39aircraft which is co-built by China's Chengdu and Pakistan. But this is the same aircraft which
01:46actually crashed five times and Tejas crashed just two times. How can then people from Pakistan
01:51are actually playing out this disinformation campaign for Tejas?
01:55Yeah, you know, we can expect anything of this kind from Pakistan is the adversary nation. They've
02:01just had a beating from Indian Air Force in North Sindhur. Nearly 20% of the Pakistan Air Force was
02:08destroyed. The capabilities have been sent backwards. So, I do not, you know, I'm not very concerned about
02:18what Pakistani handles are saying. Mind you, it's a very small minuscule, you know, numbers who are
02:24talking like this. There have been a few, very few, very mature comments by some of the Pakistani Air Force
02:30pilots, fighter pilots too. But let us look at the safety records, you know, as you said rightly.
02:36Firstly, I must tell you that Tejas is a different class of aircraft. You know, these have been the JF-17,
02:43JF-17, where basically, if you know, if you look at the design very closely, it's a MiG-29, F-16 mixed,
02:50which has been done by the Chinese. Everything has been done by the Chinese. Of course, it's a joint
02:55project, which is now around 50% of the airframe, etc. Everything is being made in Pakistan. But the
03:02basic technology, the engine, the radar, everything is from outside. So, therefore, JF-17, yes, they have
03:09been able to build it in large numbers. It was possible mainly because of China's direct support
03:16and they have close to 150 aircraft. Also, two countries, Myanmar and Nigeria have bought it.
03:22And I think Azerbaijan is going to buy it next. Whereas, if you look at LCA, yes, numbers built
03:28are small. You know, we are also dependent for the engine on the Americans, for GE 404 engine.
03:35But overall, the aircraft is a 4.5 generation, certainly four-plus generation, much ahead of
03:42the JF-17. And as you rightly mentioned, safety records, yes, they have lost five or six JF-17.
03:50This is our second accident. Our first accident was about 20 months back when we lost LCA in state and
03:58level flight because of our technical problem. And one of the pumps had failed. And this is the first
04:04time it has been, you know, the aircraft has an accident in air display. So, now, like air
04:12displays are very risky profiles, world over. It's not the first time. If you see in the last 60-70 years,
04:20since the fighters have been doing displays, every third, fourth year, there's been some crash somewhere.
04:26And because during the display, you're trying to fly the aircraft to the edge of the envelope. And we're
04:33also flying it very close to the ground. You're flying it high Gs. You're also flying to impress the
04:39customers who will possibly buy this aircraft from you. Yes. So, in that context, it is, you know,
04:47unfortunate that the LCA crash has taken place in Dubai, where there are some prospective customers who
04:52were looking at the aircraft. But certainly, LCA has had a much cleaner record. LCA is a more modern
05:00aircraft. Once all the weapons are fully integrated, electronic warfare suit is integrated. We'll have
05:07the LCA Mark 1A, which will be joining the Air Force shortly. Yes, we are behind schedule because
05:14there was a delay of the GE 404 engine supply. Also, there were some integration delays. But early next year,
05:20we should be having these in the Scotland. I must also mention that LCA Mark 1A, the production numbers
05:28are being increased. A third line has been set up at Narsik. Two lines were already existing in Bangalore.
05:34Finally, we will be producing close to 24 aircraft. Indian Air Force is very eagerly waiting for the LCA
05:40Mark 1A to join. And this will be a position at the frontline bases in Rajasthan and Punjab.
05:47And one of the theories which is circulating is how it was a very low altitude for the pilot to actually
05:53pull out of that barrel roll. And then later on, the negative G manoeuvre that he was trying to
05:57carry out. What do you have to say? What is your perspective? Do you think that it was because of
06:01the low height that the tragic crash took place? You know, I must tell you, Hina, that, you know,
06:08much better videos are now available because, you know, during an air show, not only are there
06:15official videographers, but a large number of private media houses who are trying to record
06:21and many of them have got high definition cameras. It is thus possible to have a very close look at
06:28all the manoeuvres that the pilot was carrying out. And I have myself seen some of the videos,
06:33but I still maintain my position that we are on, we have just, it's been a little over 24 hours
06:40and conjecturing is very, very difficult. Even the best of the professionals, the ones like me,
06:46who have, you know, I have been the flying display director at Aero India 2003. I watched these displays
06:53very, very closely, but one should be very, very careful when you make comments. More so, when the
07:00person who has to defend himself or be answerable is not there anymore. And so, but still, I can,
07:10yeah, we all have seen. See, the displays for all aeroplanes are at very low altitude. But in this case,
07:16we all saw that he did an outside turn where there's a negative G involved. Thereafter, he had to do a
07:25repositioning turn. Some people are conjecturing that whether he should have turned right or left
07:30during the repositioning turn. We do not know. But he did turn and he did a close to, you know,
07:40I would say 200 degree turn when he was trying to reposition. In that downward maneuver, obviously,
07:50he has either run out of height. Why he has run out of height? Why the maneuver was not tight enough?
07:56We do not know. Was there a technical problem? Was there a control problem? Was there an engine
08:02thrust reduction? We really do not know. So, yes, from the video, you can make out that his downward
08:09maneuver. The aircraft's nose is not rotating fast enough. For what reason, we do not know.
08:15Aircraft has finally meshed into the ground and there was a considerable rate of descent still there.
08:23The aircraft has hit the ground with fairly high speed. It's difficult to make out whether his
08:30afterburner was on or not. And immediately after hitting the ground, there has been a ball of fire
08:37and then dust because we are in a desert airfield. So, this has been the sequence of events.
08:43You know, anything can happen. Court of inquiry normally does a very fine tooth comb. They go
08:50through every detail. Of course, the FDR has been the flight data recorder has been retrieved immediately
08:56and it has already in the custody of the Indian Air Force. The inquiry team has, the court of inquiry
09:03has already been set up. Best of the professionals will be put on the job. They will have technical
09:08members. They will have a member from HAN, who is the producer of this aircraft. And then greater details
09:14will come out. You know, the flight data recorder records a large number of parameters in decimals of seconds.
09:24And therefore, the same will be played correlated with the videos that the court of inquiry team will
09:30get from the best of the professional videos. And then they will play the two together. There are
09:36special computers for debrief on which the FDR will be played along with the videos. And then we will
09:43come to know step by step. What are the control positions? What is the status of the engine? What was the
09:48you know, GE that the aircraft was pulling? What was its altitude? All that will come out during the
09:54court of inquiry. Yes. How do you assess the performance of GEF 404? Because these are important
10:00engines, which we are using for our indigenous fighter aircraft. You know, GE 404 is a proven tested
10:06engine. They do not doubt about the quality of the engine. GE is a big engine manufacturer, big company,
10:13and they have produced some very, very fine engines, including large engine for airliners like the
10:18triple seven. You know, they have GE 90X, huge, the country of engines. The Americans are flying GE engines
10:27on many fighter and transport aircraft. So, therefore, there is no question directly about the engine
10:33design. But yes, there can be a technical failure with anything. You know, any part of the aircraft can
10:39have a technical failure. Mind you, when the aircraft is sent for a flight, the aircraft is 100%
10:45serviceable. Even if it was the MiG-21, which had flown in the Indian Air Force for more than 60 years,
10:50every time it flew, it was 100% serviceable. LCA is a relatively modern aircraft. It has got much more
10:57modern subsystems, technical subsystems. And therefore, yes, the risk of having a technical failure
11:05reduces, but it cannot be eliminated. But engine, I want to show you, the engine is a good engine.
11:11That's why we have chosen it. It has cost us a lot of money. And we have not only chosen it,
11:17we have also chosen the GE 414 for our LCA Mark II. So, a lot of homework goes on before you select an
11:26engine. So, I don't see that an issue. Some people in the media have commented that, you know,
11:31thrust weight ratio of the aircraft, you know, all that is, we have, all this analysis has been done
11:38by the Air Force before. They finally selected the engine for LCA Mark I and for Mark Ia. And
11:45therefore, these are not issues. These are all conjectures being thrown up by, sometimes even by
11:53novices. Air Marshal Chopra, one of the experts I've heard saying that weather could also be at play.
12:00And actually, that expert was pointing out that the haze visible in the one of the videos. Now,
12:05I want to know from you, because you have been a test pilot yourself, I want to know from you when
12:10a test pilot actually boards an aircraft to go ahead and carry out all of these maneuvers. Does he know
12:16about the parameters of the weather conditions which are there at that particular point of time?
12:21You know, I must mention that the weather was fairly, not fairly, very good for a display. You know,
12:29when people do displays in Europe, in France and, you know, in UK and even in Russia sometimes,
12:37they are often clouding throughout the year. And there are different profiles which have been made by
12:43the display pilots, including Surya Kiran and, you know, various other display teams. They have
12:52different profiles made out for getting to weather. Now, what could be the weather? One could be the
12:56clouds. There were no clouds. We all saw the videos. Next is lower visibility than normal. Now,
13:02we could see the LCA through and through the maneuvers. You know, so therefore, and mind you,
13:10LCA's maneuvers are not as tight as Suu 57's or Suu 30 MKI's. So, therefore, if we could see the
13:18aircraft all the time through and through the maneuvers, that means visibility was very good.
13:23In any case, you know, before the display is decided every morning, there is a very, very detailed
13:29briefing by the Flying Display Director who briefs because there are a variety of types of aeroplanes
13:34which are going to fly. And he goes into details about the weather in the morning and through the
13:39day, whatever is predicted. And the weather is available online to all the pilots all the time
13:45so that they can update themselves. A final call is, of course, of the operator. But the Flying Display
13:50Director, he finds the visibility or any component of the weather is not good enough. He has the right to
13:57veto the display. But that was not the case in this particular incident. The weather was very good.
14:05We all have flown in much worse visibility conditions than what was yesterday.
14:12Marshall Chopra, do you think that spatial or disorientation could also be one of the factors?
14:17If there is a complete analysis of FDR and if the Court of Inquiry does not point towards any sort of
14:23technical fault in the engine or fly-by-wire system, do you think that spatial disorientation is something
14:29that can be looked at?
14:31Yeah, it will be looked at, not can be. Because, you know, see, there is a list of
14:36more than 100 things that the Court of Inquiry will look at. Well, technically, it will look at
14:41the serviceability, the past serviceability, any snags that the aircraft has had in the past,
14:46in addition to the very, very great detail of FDR analysis that they will do. They will look at
14:52sabotage. They will look at hydraulic and fuel samples that would have been put on the aircraft
14:58so that make sure that there was nothing wrong with those because either of them can have impact on
15:03flight. And they will be, you know, the pilot's medical status, his reports, his medical history,
15:09all that is looked at by the spatial disorientation is possible. You know, you are doing a 3D manoeuvre.
15:16You know, in the car when you are driving, you are either turning left or right or accelerating,
15:22but here you are also going up and down and there are different forces. Mind you, the aircraft is
15:27operating at very high G's and the pilot has just done a negative G manoeuvre. In a negative G manoeuvre,
15:33the blood goes from bottom to up towards your head, whereas in positive IG, it goes from head to
15:39towards your legs. So, anything is possible. But I said, I am just trying to highlight the various
15:46things that can happen, but what has actually happened will only be known from the Court of
15:51Enquiry. Do you think that it's time for India to push ahead with the indigenous manufacturing of engines?
15:57Undoubtedly. You know, there were some people, again, who made social media comments to say,
16:05you know, about the program itself, that the program itself will get affected. Nothing like
16:10that is going to happen. We are the nation is committed to LCA Mark 1. This is the flagship program
16:16for Atam Nirbhata in defense in India. LCA has to succeed. The Mark 1A and Mark 2 have come out
16:26to come out quickly. The AMCA has to succeed if we want to sit on the global high table of defense
16:32production. So, there is no doubt about the important components in the aircraft. The radar
16:39is already being made by us. Electronic warfare suit we are already making. The major component,
16:44ejection seats, there is no hurry to make. The ejection seat, you know, number required a few and we can
16:50always buy it from outside. But engine is an important part of the aircraft. We know that
16:57only the Western countries have been making engines. And, of course, Russians, Chinese were also
17:02struggling for 20 years. The amount of money they have pumped in. They are now getting to a point of
17:08being able to have their own engine, even though it might have been through reverse engineering of Russian
17:14engines. But in India, this has been the talk of the town. You know, for some time, the Prime Minister
17:21himself has taken a call. It's going to cost a lot of money. Most probably with Safran of France, we are
17:28going to do a joint work between DRDO and Safran. They will make an engine which will have intellectual
17:35property rights of the Indian government. And that engine will ultimately power the AMCA, that is the
17:41fifth generation aircraft. So, therefore, engine is very, very crucial. And we have to, you know,
17:47quickly get to start our research and development of the engine.
17:52Marishal Chopra, thank you so much for your robust commentary on this subject. And thank you for
17:58speaking with Deshanath News.
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